What do you do when you have pupils that take exams having got by on about 20 mins practice a week yet the parents get 'funny' when they don't get merits/distinctions???
Have tried all manner of things to engage their enthusiasm but there just seems to be a general lack of 'musicality' with them.
This is a common gripe from several teachers. Do these kids just not want to learn or are they just not 'musical'???
Is musical talent inherited????

I DONT UNDERSTAND!!! I did the bare minimum of practice on both flute and piano when growing up yet managed to get all distinctions on both instruments (well, I passed with merit on Grade 8 piano.......) so what is the deal?!!?

Im not a tyrannical teacher, Im nice and friendly (but let them know when im not happy with them!!) and try different ways of encouraging them but it seems to be lost on them.........................

Bribery might help!

My son's piano teacher gives him a timetable each term, and he has to tick the days that he practices. The "rule" is that it must be at least three times a week, and if there are three ticks or more across the week, then that week gets a star by it. At the end of term all the stars are added up and Nils gets a sweet for each star he's earned.

Maybe also you could type out a note for parents when you start with a new student, which explains the importance of practice, so that they understand from the outset what is required.

If that fails then you could threaten to tear your hair out, and tell them that then they'll be responsible for a bald music teacher.

Good luck!



Amber
x

PS. I wonder if your "bare minimum" or practice is different to that of today's youngster!

Maybe you didn't do the bare essential practise at all, but you just thought you were. Just a thought.

Good ideas there Amber might try that!!! I have found that the younger ones like getting stickers - so I let them choose one when i feel they have done some good work - either evident practice, or good effort during the lesson.

Not quite sure what youre getting at here Freda?!!!Im not that old, so i do have a good memory, and I do remember kicking up quite a fuss at practise! Especially the piano. i guess my idea of bare minimum IS different to kids nowadays who would rather play PlayStation etc (the NES onll just came out when i was younger!) but then again, I was brought up to have manners and respect my parents........... I am genuinely shocked at what kids can get away with nowadays - and this is even more apparent when doing a PGCE.

Well.......I shall indeed try a timetable (although I have tried this before, but kinda gave up hope!!!). Maybe they just get more homework these days................who knows!!!!

I think she means that maybe you did more effective practice, and that even if you didn't think you were doing very much, what you were doing was 'good' practice.

You must be talented to get distinctions if you didn't do very much practice

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ Apr 8 2005, 01:49 PM)

I think she means that maybe you did more effective practice, and that even if you didn't think you were doing very much, what you were doing was 'good' practice. You must be talented to get distinctions if you didn't do very much practice

yes, effective practise for shorter time is better than less effective practise for a longer time

(or so my teacher says)

All the advice you've received so far seems to be excellent. I think the answer has to be in establishing clear guidelines with the parents right at the beginning. They probably think "Well, I'm the one who's paying", and don't realise that if your students get low marks because of insufficient practice, it can damage your professional reputation. I think you have to try and make this point as strongly as possible.

The idea with the timetable is good, but I fear it's importance would soon be forgotten in a busy family where Mummy will probably be tricked into signing it just before a lesson to keep her little one happy!
Stickers and certificates work with some children, but my youngest (9) is learning piano and certificates and stars have absolutely no effect whatsoever!

Perhaps it would be worth while spending time on a letter/guide that you give to parents right at the beginning, giving general info about music, exams etc, explaining about the importance of practice at home and including a few sentences in bold, pointing out how lack of commitment on their part affects YOU as well as their little brats!

Otherwise, buy some hair restorer!

Steve

QUOTE

Perhaps it would be worth while spending time on a letter/guide that you give to parents right at the beginning,

This is an excellent idea and in many cases it will prove useful.

However it's only effective if parents read it and take on board what it says.

One parent last term told me she did not have time to read the letter I sent. She then went on to say it was not clear and she could not understand my meaning.



Maggie

I tell students and their parents how much additional practice time will be necessary between the entry date and the actual exam before I enter them.
At the start of each year, I send home a letter explaining how much practice time is needed, how much time needs to be spent on theory etc. depending on the grade. The younger ones get stars for good work and I write 'good, well done etc in notebooks for the older students. We have practice sheets for students in the schools where I teach but I don't pay much attention to them. I can tell how much or how little a child has done from how they play.

Do you tell them you didn't practise much but still did well? If so, then no prizes for guessing why they think they can get away with not practising much!

I don't actually believe musical talent is inherited - musical potential is there from the very beginning - I believe we're all born with it. However, some of us, for one reason or another, do more with that potential than others. The reason could be a mother singing to you a lot and in tune, from the earliest days, including when you were in the womb. Or it could be inspirational music teachers from when you were very young, or something sparking your musical interest from a very early age ... there are lots of reasons why one child can seem more naturally musical than another, but I believe it's goood fortune for one reason or another, rather than being born with a superior musical talent.

So, to re-iterate - whatever you do, don't tell your pupils you did well on little practice.

These children aren't "not musical", and they do want to learn, they're just not keen on the process that will get them there, which in most cases involves a fair amount of practice. And that's not unusual - many of the great instrumentalists and composers disliked practice too; perhaps it's the way we expect children to practice in the West. In tribal musical cultures or in gypsy camps the children learn from their parents and there's lots of group playing etc etc - they go on to become virtuosos without hours alone slaving away in a room with a music stand.

So we as teachers have to find ways to motivate students to enjoy their practice - but you know that already!

One little hint - I find backing CD's help a lot - but you probably know that too.

Violinia

Well being a 15 year old I probably wouldn't appreciate getting stickers!!! But it might be good for younger ones.

You could ask them to get music they like to give them a break. It does get really boring doing exam pieces. Then maybe, after having a bit of fun with their favourite music, they might feel like doing some exam music as well

Also, praise helps. My old teacher only ever said what I did wrong and it made me not want to bother any more

QUOTE (flutey toot @ Apr 8 2005, 03:37 PM)

Maybe they just get more homework these days................who knows!!!!

We do!!! I'm doing the higher papers for all my exams and I get LOADS of work- the coursework is horrible. In my school, we have modular exams for maths and science which makes it worse cos we have exams every couple of months so we don't get a lot of time to learn everything and have to revise like mad.....

Thanks!! Lots of ideas there for me!!! I think I just expect too much from some of the pupils and expect them to use common sense -but maybe I need to be more specific. If im a bit peeved at someones progress, then i mention it to the parents AND the pupil......in a nice way of course!!! (or maybe im not convincing enough!)

Dont worry Jade, I wouldnt give stickers to a 15 year old!!!!I keep those for the younger ones (I have a few pupils aged between 6 and 9 you see) and they seem quite excited to get them - but I have started to use them more sparingly!

Violinia - of COURSE i dont tell them I got away with little practice!!!! I guess maybe I did more effective practice and actually took on board what I had to practice for th enext lesson to avoid getting told off. I use a note pad with all my pupils - do other teachers/pupils find these effective??


As for inherent musical ability -yes I agree, i think we ALL have the capacity as a child to take it further, but it must depend on the personality of the child and whether they really WANT to learn.

Its a difficult thing this teaching malarkey!! I sometimes worry that Im not 'doing it right' but i do try different hings with my pupils and am not forceful. I do encourage and give praise depending on the individuals effort etc.

Crikey this is a long message!

QUOTE

I use a note pad with all my pupils - do other teachers/pupils find these effective??

As a pupil i find that notepads are a complete waste of time unless they are used frequently.

My clarinet teacher just uses a manuscript book to write down excersizes - whatever else i have to focus on he writes on the top of the piece of music, that way when i play i can look at it without having to flick through an annoying notebook.

My piano teacher always writes down what i have to do in a notebook and i find this a complete waste of time because i never read it and she just ends up getting annoyed with me because i have not done the work she set!

QUOTE (flutey toot @ Apr 10 2005, 10:29 AM)

Its a difficult thing this teaching malarkey!!

True! but usually its possible to find a way of dealing with the least interested child. There is some musical ability in everyone but maybe its a case of some children being taught the wrong instrument.

QUOTE

My piano teacher always writes down what i have to do in a notebook and i find this a complete waste of time because i never read it and she just ends up getting annoyed with me because i have not done the work she set!

I'm quite sure this happens a lot - or some pupils half-read the notes and miss the important bit.

Nevertheless I do use notebooks for most, although not all. I tend not to use notebooks with the youngest, or with anyone who says they'd rather not bother with one.

One 7 year old has a notebook from her previous teacher, but was quite clear about the fact that she didn't bother to read it, and I made the point that there was no point my writing in it then. It went ok for a few weeks with pencil marks above her pieces and page numbers ringed.

One week she forgot to do some theory I'd set, and was quite anxious that it didn't happen again ........ "can you write the page number somewhere?"

The fact that she herself realised the system had broken down was much better than all the insisting I could have done about using / reading her notebook.
I suggested a post-it note with a brief note of this week's aims, and this has (so far!) worked very well. She decides where to put it. I think the idea of having pieces and instructions in one book is probably a plus.

Btw on the subject of stickers, I have some adults who like a sticker! It's true some teens prefer a "well done" or similar - if in doubt I sometimes ask "are we a bit too grown-up for stickers?" and the answer is nearly always "no, I'd love a sticker!"

Maggie

Hehe! I am 15 and my teacher gives me stickers sometimes!

I also have a practice notebook where she writes down what I have to practice and I have to write down how long I do practice. However, sometimes I don't know what she means or it doesn't go into enough detail. I do think they're a good idea though.

QUOTE (hothedgehog @ Apr 10 2005, 10:59 AM)

QUOTE I use a note pad with all my pupils - do other teachers/pupils find these effective?? As a pupil i find that notepads are a complete waste of time unless they are used frequently. My clarinet teacher just uses a manuscript book to write down excersizes - whatever else i have to focus on he writes on the top of the piece of music, that way when i play i can look at it without having to flick through an annoying notebook. My piano teacher always writes down what i have to do in a notebook and i find this a complete waste of time because i never read it and she just ends up getting annoyed with me because i have not done the work she set!

I use a notebook with all my students. Apart from anything else, it keeps me covered. When someone goes to an exam and goes home telling their parents I didn't do this scale or that scale I can open the notebook and say 'yes you did that scale last October' or whenever. Quite often it is also evidence of what you have told someone to do and is something an examiner comments on too.

Hothedgehog, if you are not going to do the work your teacher sets, then why bother? Your piano teacher can play the piano, and its for your benefit that she writes in the notebook. No wonder she gets annoyed. Its precisely for students like you that teachers use notebooks - so that they have proof that you were told to do something and didn't bother doing it.

My previous and current teachers use notebooks.
I sort of see it more as a way of them to remember what I was meant to be doing(must be hard to keep track if you have a lot of pupils) rather than a reminder for me because I listen to what I am told and remember anyway.
(which is better than my first tohughts which were along the lines of feeling as though I was being teated as a little kid who didn't listen to what they were being told).

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Apr 10 2005, 12:20 PM)

Btw on the subject of stickers, I have some adults who like a sticker! It's true some teens prefer a "well done" or similar - if in doubt I sometimes ask "are we a bit too grown-up for stickers?" and the answer is nearly always "no, I'd love a sticker!"

Stickers are fab....

My old violin teacher used to give out stickers and they used to go over my school folder.

My piano teacher uses notebooks and I find it useful! I actually remember what to practice, and which particular it of theory to have another go at etc, and when my next lesson its! Although, if I forget my notebook (which I admit has been twice recently), she writes stuff on a post-it and sticks it on my books and then tells me to stick it in the notebook when I get home.

Just stop the student if he still doesn't want to practice! That's what my mom's going to do. People who have little musicality usually don't like to practice anyway.

QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 10 2005, 12:19 PM)

Hothedgehog, if you are not going to do the work your teacher sets, then why bother?  Your piano teacher can play the piano, and its for your benefit that she writes in the notebook.  No wonder she gets annoyed. Its precisely for students like you that teachers use notebooks - so that they have proof that you were told to do something and didn't bother doing it.

I always use a notebook but I find I use it less the higher up the grades.But it's still handy for reference...to write down name of a piece etc.

I find it damn frustrating when the pupil cannot be bothered to read what I write down during the week.I always ask the parent to refer to it as normally the younger pupils can't read my scrawl, and encourage parents/pupils to write any concerns they have during the week.

But....I still get the "I DON'T KNOW" why I forgot to practise my sight reading,for instance.

Having finished a pupil...age 12... this week because they couldn't be bothered to use reference books to help with working through a past theory paper (this has been going on for months),despite writing down the same explanations in red pen,voicing concerns with the parent etc,having no time in the lesson to go through playing pieces week after week,month after month,I reached the end of my tether.

I asked the pupil why she couldn't be bothered to look up Chapter A in workbook and said, "Well,do you want me to write down the page number and leave the m/s book open on the correct page or use stick-it papers ,as you can't be bothered to spend the time during the week...blah,blah,blah".

They wanted to play the piano,but didn't want to put the work in.

However,the other sibling is doing very well...

I also use stickers for children and,occasionally,adults.

As an aside,having had a joke with an adult pupil about telling the examiner that they would be allowed a bike if they got a pass,ths pupil actually did ask the examiner. They commented on this in the report....this examiner had a sense of humour...

Noodle and Maggie May ( please note the other way round now to keep things fair ) Yup... I agree.

Hello! I also find that using note pads actually helps me too! As I have quite a few pupils, it can be a bit difficult to know EXACTLY what the pupil is working on straight away so glancing through a notepad reminds me. Especially when I dont see them for weeks on end because theyve been away on holiday lucky things!!
And yes, they are there to help remind the pupil too. Some pupils have so many school things and clubs that I doubt there piano/flute etc homework is at the front of their mind all the time!

I always used to refer to a note pad, but stopped using one by the time I got to RCM (as only had pieces to worry about in life!!!!), but I still no people doing postgrad there that still need to use a notepad....!!

PS[SIZE=7][COLOR=red]I STILL DONT GET HOW TO ADD MY LITTLE SIGNATURE INFO LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!! HELP ME!!! I AM PRACTICALLY COMPUTER ILLITERATE!!!!

go to my controls(top right)

click on edit signature

in the box write something and then click update

i recently started cello in feb and practice is the only homework i want to do

I have designed my own personal notebooks for my pupils on the computer - A4 pages folded in half with a double page for each week. After one term's use I asked parents and pupils to fill in a questionnaire about whether they liked using them, whether it helped structure their practice and whether they did more or less practice. Of those that came back (most) answers were very positive, with all respondants saying they pracitised more or about the same (the latter were ones who practised anyway!). Certainly the standard of playing and motivation improved for most pupils. I recorded what they were supposed to do and there was a practice record for the week, showing time practised with parent's signature, where appropriate. For the trial I included my adult pupils, and they said they felt more focussed using the books.

This term I have issued the books in slightly different format, for children only, and the pupils have to self-assess each week (marks out of 10) for each item of work set, and explain why they have awarded themselves the mark. I assess too! Whilst the practice record is still there, I am more interested to know if they have completed each specified task as well as possible. There are also games to encourage practising (I've tried them myself and can confirm they work - my own playing has improved too!). For older children and adults I have devised a slightly different A4 sheet along similar lines, which has more space on it and has boxes for technical, theory, aural and sight reading as well as pieces. I have yet to see how well these are going to work.

My ideas aren't original - my inspiration has come from reading The Practice Revolution by Philip Johnston, available through the Practicespot website - this is a really excellent site for ideas on the subject of practice and has plenty of free material which you can download. You can even have your own website with on-line notebook!

Suepea, this sounds a really interesting website-I'll be having a look!
On the subject of notebooks, as Maggie says, it is really useful for some pupils but not all. If they never look at them, or prefer notes written on the music, I do that instead. I pupil never looked at his notebook, and I ended up with an A4 sheet with his practice listed on it, attached to the front of his grade 6 book! For school pupils, the music service supplies practice books, which I use-in this case it's useful as you don't tend to see most of the parents, so it is useful for communication with them, and for them to see what the child is doing.

From a parental point of view, kids who constantly forget things are not only frustrating, they're a constant siren with flashing lights telling the world what a ghastly job we've made of raising them! We really appreciate a notebook, otherwise it's possible to ask a child "What were the notices for today" and get the reply "I'm not sure if there's any school tomorrow, because the teacher didn't say anything", although APPARENTLY the correct answer was that they needed to bring a packed lunch the next day...

I can only *hope* that Viohazard is going through a phase. He forgets EVERYTHING. He doesn't forget what to practice, but he sometimes forgets sheet music (though admittedly, he probably has about 20 items which need to be taken in various combinations), because he lazily practices without getting it out, or alternatively forgets to take it down from his music hanger. He tossed all the schedules and programs out of his music bag before Saturday's performance, apparently because I told him to "put his music in his bag."

When checking the hall after the performance, I had the humiliation of finding only ONE lost item...yes, Viohazard had left his music in his seat (...so where's the "steaming mad" emoticon?). He also left a bag behind after that, and we had to trudge back and get it.