I rather like Bette Midler. Her rendition of "Stay with me,Baby" was very powerful and Dolores Delargo...the toast of Chicago...had me crying with laughter. She also sings stuff by The Andrew Sisters. Very varied,talented performer.

Do you remember the interview way back when she had with Parkinson? It was done lying down,I think.

QUOTE (elmo @ Apr 9 2005, 09:32 PM)

We did a swap, she prays for me if I have an exam, and I'm gonna send her reiki for her AS exam!

that reiki thing actually works- really freaky

Religion and Music .. Nice link

Meditation is a religious practice for some people.

Just wondering how the concept of meditation can be applied in music. The ability to play a note that is purely uninterrupted and with a constant force and steadiness (e.g. in my case a wind instrument) is so much like the meditation, which is about focusing on one thing or "nothing" in order to achieve an uninterrupted state of the mind.

I don't really as I'm an agnostic, but this is an interesting topic and I'd like to hear more about it...

QUOTE (kishgia @ Apr 21 2005, 01:20 PM)

Religion and Music .. Nice link Meditation is a religious practice for some people. Just wondering how the concept of meditation can be applied in music. The ability to play a note that is purely uninterrupted and with a constant force and steadiness (e.g. in my case a wind instrument) is so much like the meditation, which is about focusing on one thing or "nothing" in order to achieve an uninterrupted state of the mind.

Interesting observation.. playing a note that is pure and uninterrupted would be rather like the classic "Ommmmmmmmmmmmm" or whatever that the Eastern gurus teach. Then I look at performers of "New Age" music who may have a similar objective; i.e. altered state of consciousness. Minimalism being another possible example of meditative objectives in music.

So here is a second way that music and religion interrelate. On the one hand you make real to the listener some mystical story, or some emotion or belief. On the other, you enable the musician or listener to meditate - slow down the metabolism, focus and cleanse the mind, obtain deep relaxation.

This only goes to show that music should never be regarded as a standard hobby or interesting task - it can be much more than just a an ordinary task or hobby. Music is something that can greatly enhance the process of living itself - although how many parents, teachers and students nowadays would see it as such? Far less the general public?

QUOTE

Music is something that can greatly enhance the process of living itself - although how many parents, teachers and students nowadays would see it as such? Far less the general public?

Remember that verse from "American Pie" ??

the three men I admire most
the Father Son and Holy Ghost
... they took the last train for the coast -
the day the music died.

Maggie

Yes I do try to incorpperate religon and music. I see music as a gift from God, he gsve me this talent for me to use to the best of my ability and in a way that will make me happy. I took a long break from my flute for a while, I stopped lessons and at the same time stoped playing. I dipped into it occassionally but not much came of it till now where I am now playing it more (for own pleasure).

At church we have hymns and music every week. At the Mass I go to (I'm catholic) there is a folk group (I don't play in the folk group) which is lead by a lady guitarist who is also a good singer, that provides hte music to the hymns that are sung by the congregation. During communion the folk group play a hymn which is sung by the leader. The leader also adds vocal harmony parts to some of the main hymns, sung by the congregation.

I feel that music should be included in religon as it is an enjoyable way of praising God, lots of people like music. Music can help express modes and feelins that some people can't do on their own.

Some religons have a lively music aspect to all their services, Primarily, I think, Evangelicists, which gives the service a party theme, the way I feel that God should be celebrated, even though this isn't the style of the Catholic Mass, it would be nice if it was at times. Catholics do sing hymns that are lively and up beat at times, but the Mass is often quite formal, so at times the hymns take that approach.

As for praying I feel I don't always pray as much as I feel I should. I seem to leave praying for at church only. I do see God as the leader of my life and often try to let him guide me. I f something doesn't workout then I try to see it as God's work and that he has a plan for me and the thing that didn't workout wasn't part of it. I do at times say a pray before something important, e.g. a job interview or at least hope that God will let it work out right (i.e. the outcome is one of success).

I guess I am what you could call religiously confused- My Mom was Jewish and my Dad is a Christian, I was brought up as a Jew until I was about 8, when my mom died and my Dad gave up on religion. Over the past 5 years however I have moved to this country(from the US)&started going to our tiny parish church (actually 12 churches in our parish)with my Dad who is slowly getting back into christianity. I started going to church 3 years ago when they needed an organist and I was offered by my Step-Mother. Dad came with me, so I didnt feel 'uncomfortable' or whatever because of my upbringing, and I have been getting more and more into it.
So music is what got me and my family (brother and Dad) back into religion.
Though I feel rather as though Im not being loyal to Mom or Judaism. Practicing Judaism is so much harder over here and my household is entirely Christian.
I believe that different religions are just different ways of getting to G-d (old habit that...... ) but am still confused.
What are your views?

QUOTE (izzy @ Apr 28 2005, 02:59 PM)

I believe that different religions are just different ways of getting to G-d (old habit that...... ) but am still confused. What are your views?

Out of interest and especially for our English subscribers..

Have you considered the musical implications of the Anglican Church falling into the fold of the Roman Catholic Church?

I am sure you have heard news releases over the last few days that indicate the the Catholic doctrines regarding Mary are likely to be agreed to by the Anglicans. Will this have an impact on "Magnificat" and similar music that we will hear in Anglican worship?

Having said the above, I feel the RC and Anglican negotiations have a long way to go.
Minor matters like celibate or married clergy, female clergy, the role of British monarchy..

Its taken only 6 years for them to come up with this! Sounds like jobs for a lifetime for some lucky mystical researchers.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 16 2005, 01:35 AM)

God is watching us God is watching us God is watching us From a distance

I've always disliked this song, for the basic reason that I don't think God is watching us "from a distance" - like a disintested old beard in the sky. I think he's up close and personal, just like it's natural to be with those you love.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 19 2005, 10:25 PM)

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 16 2005, 01:35 AM) God is watching us God is watching us From a distance I've always disliked this song, for the basic reason that I don't think God is watching us "from a distance" - like a disintested old beard in the sky. I think he's up close and personal, just like it's natural to be with those you love.

Sarah..

What if you were one of the hundreds of thousands killed by the Tsunami?

This song had a real resonance with me when this Act of God happened.

When I think of the Big Bang that created the universe 14 billion years ago, it all starts to make good sense. The dinosaurs that came and went, the Ice Ages etc etc.

The Big Bang discovery dates from the 1920s by the way.

*sigh* yes I know when the big bang discovery dates from . Personally, I think it takes a whole lot more faith to believe "first there was nothing, then it exploded", than to believe in a creative God behind it all... & trusting in God who I have seen perform miracles is easier than trusting in radiocarbon dating which can date rocks from a 20 year old explosion at 350,000 years old...! But that is a whole 'nother story

What is comforting about a God watching from a distance? What is loving about it?

I don't think that would be comforting to me in the midst of the tsunami devastation.

"Jesus wept"...

... more than once.

I'm not going to get into a debate here... I'm just saying, I don't like that song, because if there is a God (and I believe there is - you may not) then the thought of him watching from so far away that he had no idea what was going on - so the earth just looked like a pretty blue ball hanging in space -

From a distance
We all have enough
And no one is in need
And there are no guns, no bombs and no disease
No hungry mouths to feed

- and didn't care to come closer to find out what was actually going on... well frankly I wouldn't think much of such a God... it's neither comforting nor inspiring to me. A God who came to see, and set about setting things right - a God who's involved - that is a God I can not only believe in but love & (try to) obey

Basically - I believe that yes, God does see the big picture - but he sees all the details too. The God of that song seems only to see from a distance... Some of the verses - yes - we can definitely take something from that - for ourselves - a reminder to see the big picture? I guess. Though I still feel like it's asking us to ignore the details - and what are people, if not details, in the big scheme of things... painting a happy facade on the big picture means little to those who are suffering.

I can't explain catastrophes except in terms of a fallen world. But then I doubt an atheistic could explain eucatastrophe when everything supposedly happens by chance, so I guess we're even, eh?

If you *don't* believe in God... then... I still don't get it I'm afraid - surely the song is less meaningful still...? Maybe I missed something. It just seems to portray God as distant - uncaring - & if that is what God is like then why bother saying *anything* about him.

You may see that song differently, and that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion... as I am to mine

This song expresses (to me) God's view of disaster and his response far better.

In my life all the strife is getting in the way
Frankly I did not plan on getting hurt today
From Your chair in the clouds
Benevolent are Your ways
While the beggar bleeds, the children play
Everyone wants to know why

Isn't it always the question?
How do You know my condition?

You came down to me to know what it's like
To know what it's like to hurt
You came down to me to know what it's like
To know just what it's like to
Be me, to be us
(To be one with the dust and to be lost)
(To be one with the dust and to be lost... to be found)

In the wake of the last decades and centuries past
Who's to blame for this mess?
And who's gonna take the rap?
We're quick to judge and discard
A God who lets you choose whom and what to love

Isn't it always the question?
Do You really know my position?

You know what it's like to thirst, to bleed
You know what it's like

What it's like - downhere - from the album SO Much For Substitutes

http://www.christianrocklyrics.com/downher...whatsitlike.php

You know what it's like now that, to me, is wowsers.

Like I said, I'm not willing to get into a religious debate... I just don't like that song, & never have.

Is this really the place for religious dissertations?

Not really, but if it's any consolation, the Anglican Church is unlikely ever to drop the Magnificat - it is said or sung every day at evensong. As it's in the new Common worship Prayer books, and the Book of Common Prayer is still used regulalry in many churches, I can said with complete and utter confidence that you must not fear it's demise!!!

(And I'm also fairly certain that Catholic dictrines regarding Mary will not be adopted wholesale by Anglicans...)

Just in case you're interested!

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 19 2005, 06:41 PM)

easier than trusting in radiocarbon dating which can date rocks from a 20 year old explosion at 350,000 years old...!

You don't use radiocarbon dating to date rocks.

Carbon 14 dating is based on living things ingesting radioactive carbon (i.e. carbon 14) produced in the upper atmosphere by cosmic ray impacts. After a plant or animal dies there's no replenishment of C14 and the decay allows a measurement of the age of the organic matter.

Radiocarbon dating can't be used for material older than about 50,000 years old as the C14 level is then too low to be readily used.

You also appear to be confused about the effects of atmospheric atom bomb tests during the 1950s which gave an increase in the amount of C14. These effects are calibrated by using measurements from tree growth rings.

A tsunami is completely understandable in natural terms.

@spaceman - Thank you very much for bringing some sense and direction. Personally, I think religion should be topic non grata on these forums. But then again, that's just me.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 19 2005, 11:41 PM)

What is comforting about a God watching from a distance? What is loving about it? I don't think that would be comforting to me in the midst of the tsunami devastation. If you *don't* believe in God... then... I still don't get it I'm afraid - surely the song is less meaningful still...? Maybe I missed something. It just seems to portray God as distant - uncaring - & if that is what God is like then why bother saying *anything* about him.

I first remember learning a piano piece that I did not like by Scarlatti when I was about 9 or 10. By the time I had learned it, I think I understood it, even if I still struggled to like it. (Even today I don't think it is one of his best)

Similarly today as a member of a choir working as a true team, I sing music I want to sing again and again and again, and I sing other music that I may want to perform once and not sing again for various reasons. I probably sing very little music that would exactly articulate my thoughts.

We are (and I am) often asked to sing for services of all kinds - various denominations, multi-religion events, a Roman Catholic ordination, a Synagogue performance, an Evensong. Then there are weddings of any format under the sun. I was even involved with athe opening of a (major) political party conference, that I may not vote for.

Singing generally involves other ancient mythology (as in opera), bawdy drinking songs (say by John Masefield), Shakespeare...

And this is the beauty of music. It is at its strongest when we are making music about something that is away from the everyday, and where we are having to express an unfamiliar part of our makeup. I can't imagine having the same fun about my own workplace and the routine tasks that take so much of my time each day!

"Imagery meets Imagery" is how I described music and religion previously in this post - how can you understand how your imagination can be expressed in a way that is understood by others. It is challenging, but putting a box around art of any kind is so limiting!

BTW Grand Choeur, do you now how to identify a set of Topics that you can personally monitor (thereby screening out others that you do not wish to monitor?) It would be an excellent facility for you to use if this particular thread is of no interest to you - surely we don't need to be reminded all the time within the thread itself, because you yourself are thereby being off the topic. Also bear in mind that for hundreds of years, virtually all music that was written down was by the church - i.e. music of a religious nature is most of what we have for certain eras. The thread is valid and has had a wide range of contributors already.

Oh and regarding the tsunami - the TV footage we saw here Sarah did not show comfort at ANY level at all. Any one who was there and who saw the big wave coming, turned and ran for dear life - before being tragically overwhelmed by this act of God. I see nothing wrong with a song expressing that God is uncaring - a person who lost a close friend or relative among the thousands may well feel like expressing that emotion. There is indeed nothing loving about it, neither does there have to be.

And again that is the beauty of singing about the supernatural - noone can, and noone needs to substantiate anything - you just express an idea, and in the case of "From a Distance" I think it is a highly original and extremely valid idea. [Does anyone know any other songs that take this point of view in a similar way?]

QUOTE (Emma C @ May 20 2005, 10:07 AM)

Not really, but if it's any consolation, the Anglican Church is unlikely ever to drop the Magnificat - it is said or sung every day at evensong. As it's in the new Common worship Prayer books, and the Book of Common Prayer is still used regulalry in many churches, I can said with complete and utter confidence that you must not fear it's demise!!!

Would have thought that the Anglicans adopting Catholic um... no brain... beliefs would ensure the use of the Magnificat, as she's highly regarded in RC...

George: OK now I see where you are coming from with that song, although I still don't agree. I've lost several people close to me over the past 18 months or so and God has been a very great comfort.

grand choeur: like I said, not by any means wishing to get into a religious debate - just explaining why I intensely dislike that song.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 20 2005, 10:43 AM)

BTW Grand Choeur, do you now how to identify a set of Topics that you can personally monitor (thereby screening out others that you do not wish to monitor?)  It would be an excellent facility for you to use if this particular thread is of no interest to you - surely we don't need to be reminded all the time within the thread itself, because you yourself are thereby being off the topic.  Also bear in mind that for hundreds of years, virtually all music that was written down was by the church - i.e. music of a religious nature is most of what we have for certain eras.    The thread is valid and has had a wide range of contributors already.

If I could better interpret your comment then my response would be on par - If its off then - you guessed why.

I have seen postings where people are saying they are born again christians - no offence to them - and I am concerned that some of the posts will lose sight of the topic at hand which is Music and Religion. I think the topic should be addressed fully - not in a Hyde Park-esque fashion with the soap box and all.

I feel that postings talking about religious beliefs should be posted in appropriate forums elsewhere.

Also, seeking to justify the validity of the thread just because it has had a wide range of contributors already is simplicity in excelsis.

Pardon me for remaining focused on the topic at hand.

erm guys is this whole topic not getting just a teensy weensy bit ######y? I'm sure whoever started the topic (hulk maybe? cnt remember!) didnt intend to start WW3 over songs about god or anything related to god's existance. We all have our opinions on god but I think some of the comments have taken things a little bit too far, this is obviously because people are very passionate about both music and religion but I think sometimes a line has to be drawn somewhere!

So to start a new music/religion branch of this topic......BELL RINGING!

Anyone do it? I've always wanted to just to see what its like but its all about number patterns or something isnt it? I mean I've seen bell ringer follow lists of numbers. Any bell ringers in this topic? And also do you have to be a certain weight for each bell? I'm worried I'd pull the bell pull down and then go back up with the bell!!! lol

*edited* oops that word at the top (edited out) begins in B and rhymes with witch by the way! no other way to explain the tone of this topic!

QUOTE (country_bumpkin @ May 20 2005, 02:50 PM)

erm guys is this whole topic not getting just a teensy weensy bit ######y? I'm sure whoever started the topic (hulk maybe? cnt remember!) didnt intend to start WW3 over songs about god or anything related to god's existance. We all have our opinions on god but I think some of the comments have taken things a little bit too far, this is obviously because people are very passionate about both music and religion but I think sometimes a line has to be drawn somewhere! So to start a new music/religion branch of this topic......BELL RINGING! Anyone do it? I've always wanted to just to see what its like but its all about number patterns or something isnt it? I mean I've seen bell ringer follow lists of numbers. Any bell ringers in this topic? And also do you have to be a certain weight for each bell? I'm worried I'd pull the bell pull down and then go back up with the bell!!! lol *edited* oops that word at the top (edited out) begins in B and rhymes with witch by the way! no other way to explain the tone of this topic!

LOL
I might take up bell ringing - think I have the girth to counterbalance any given large bell...

Isn't it strange, given the number of people who apparently place their faith in science, how little music has been inspired by scientific theory when so much has been inspired by religion?

sorry - I hit the button twice

QUOTE (woodwind @ May 20 2005, 09:48 PM)

how little music has been inspired by scientific theory

What about the "live organ donors' song" from Monty Python?

And who could forget Sir Isaac Newton's smash hit, "Don't sit under the apple tree......"

Couldn't "God watching us From a Distance" be poetically referring to the true spirit of life, or whatever it is, experiencing the reality and beauty of the planet, and its life, and distancing itself from the foolish ways of man? Secondly, someone explained to me once that the "Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, caught the last train for the coast" in American Pie refers to the untimely deaths of Eddie Cochran, Buddy Holly, and someone else.

QUOTE (Steve Milliner @ May 21 2005, 01:45 AM)

Couldn't "God watching us From a Distance" be poetically referring to the true spirit of life, or whatever it is, experiencing the reality and beauty of the planet, and its life, and distancing itself from the foolish ways of man?

I agree Steve. Have you seen pictures of the Earth from space vehicles - you do see the contrast between sea and land and little other detail. "From a distance", we are equipped with all we need - it would be hard to believe looking "from a distance" that the life forms would need to be bothered fighting wars or suffering from diseases etc.

A later verse brings it down to the rank and file soldier level, fighting someone who he would prefer to treat as a friend. He is puzzled also.

So the challenge and hope is that we can "tune in" to the harmony that potentially is available to us - both from a distance and the perspective of the individual?

QUOTE (woodwind @ May 20 2005, 09:48 PM)

Isn't it strange, given the number of people who apparently place their faith in science, how little music has been inspired by scientific theory when so much has been inspired by religion?

It is easy for us to take for granted the many breakthroughs that science has achieved. Of course we all enjoy the benefits of scientific achievement almost every moment of our lives. And yes we do put our faith in science too. The Lord Reith lecture series this year (for those in the UK), entitled "The Triumph of Technology" was a perfect illustration of this.

(This year's Reith Lecturer was the distinguished engineer, Lord Alec Broers who is President of the Royal Academy of Engineering and Chairman of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee.)

It is true that no music I am aware of would set to music the laws of thermodynamics. But it IS true to say that the trend in western music has been toward the secular. Think of the neo-classical movement in the early part of 1900s that has been a basis of classical music ever since.

Here is a quote that I think very neatly explains the partnership that has always existed between music and religion

"Religion is VERY SIMILAR to music and very different from language. Every normal human being acquires a natural language and that language is extraordinarily similar to that of the surrounding group. By contrast .. although all human beings can effortlessly recognise music and religious concepts, there are profound individual differences in the extent to which they enjoy music or adhere to religious concepts." (Prof Pascal Boyer, Washington University, St Louis)

This topic is suffering scope-creep but the assumptions are interesting.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 21 2005, 03:27 AM)

It is true that no music I am aware of would set to music the laws of thermodynamics.

I suspect a large fraction of the music that's about science is in fact comedy songs.
And to prove this, here's something by Flanders and Swann about the laws of thermodynamics!
http://physics.about.com/cs/jokeoftheweek/...dersandswan.htm

I think it's relevant to mention that scientific spiritual techniques, like Yoga meditation, can help in calming and concentrating the mind before playing. In addition, one feels oneself to be a part of a larger life principle, like a harmonic of an intellegent fundamental, and music can be seen as a constantly evolving creative expression of life. It's great to feel tuned in to the same living music vibration that the great composers must have drawn their inspiration from. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it works for me. Must get back into it! Surely there's a parallel to what Christians do when they pray. Tuning in.
Incedentally we have to be careful what we say on the subject during lessons , given the wide range of Methodists, Catholics, Atheists, etc. we get to teach. An open- minded, non-committal, tactfully humorous approach works o.k. My choirboy past helps with rep. of ecclesiastic humour.

QUOTE (Steve Milliner @ May 21 2005, 03:43 PM)

........... one feels oneself to be a part of a larger life principle, like a harmonic of an intellegent fundamental, and music can be seen as a constantly evolving creative expression of life. It's great to feel tuned in to the same living music vibration that the great composers must have drawn their inspiration from. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it works for me. Must get back into it! Surely there's a parallel to what Christians do when they pray. Tuning in.

Also while music evolves as human thought evolves...
So the musician matures, and is able to take on board increasingly challenging musical ideas.

This may be where the analogy with religion is severely tested. Because it seems to me that religions do not evolve.. you get pent up needs for change accumulating for years and years, and then there is quantum change when religion has no choice - or when an inspired leader is there to show the way.

For example..
I was invited to sing at a Methodist anniversary of John Wesley today, and the sermon covered his life story. We learned about life in the 1700s - how the Anglican Church was all powerful, and all other Christians were second class citizens. How his mother was buried in a "dissenters' grave" (along with John Bunyan, Daniel Defoe and Isaac Watts!!) How Wesley preached in open air and set up numerous "groups" around England because he was banned from all the pulpits.

The numerous denominations, cults and sects we see represent the way religion has tried to evolve (either progressively or conservatively) Music, a truly universal language, can be so responsive - dont you think?

The Ballet Rambert has just choreographed E=mc*c
to Strauss and others.

(sorry, can't do a 'squared').

QUOTE (vermillion @ May 22 2005, 07:54 PM)

The Ballet Rambert has just choreographed E=mc*c to Strauss and others. (sorry, can't do a 'squared').

Square dancing, perhaps?

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 22 2005, 09:42 AM)

The numerous denominations, cults and sects we see represent the way religion has tried to evolve (either progressively or conservatively)  Music, a truly universal language, can be so responsive - dont you think?

Couldn't agree more, George. It's religious dogma that refuses to adapt. The essential truth, I feel, is always the same. Jesus never said, for instance that the earth is flat and the sun and stars revolve aroud it, the "church" did. And when a sceintist (was it Galileo?) discovered that the reverse was the case he was afraid to publish his findings for fear of being persecuted as a heretic. Now, I've heard, Christianity is slowly beginning to accept the long proven fact of evolution, albeit with a divine design. Well, Buddhists and Hindus have been saying this for millennia! What about the time when music in 4/4 was banned, classed as "common" time, as it wasn't 3 time, the holy trinity and all that. Also when sharps and flats were banned, being unneccesary embellishments.