Hey, it's me again!

I thought this would be an interesting topic. I, personally, incorporate music into religion, mainly by saying a prayer before an exam/performance, asking God to help me do well etc. I just thought it would be interesting to see if others did something similar or didn't for that matter .

All religions welcome!

Hulk.

Hello!
No, I don't as I'm not religious. Before performances, I generally try to rely on myself, meaning that I try to boost my confidence by thinking stuff like "I'll be fine", "I'll show them!" etc., without involving supernatural powers. However, I do believe in fate/luck. Would that count as religion?
I do like singing church hymns and songs, and I don't mind singing them, as music and religion are very closely connected. After all, think of people like Pope Gregory (5th Century?) and others that helped to develop notation etc.

I'm not really religous, I don't go to church anymore, but I might go again when I'm older!

I do say prayers sometimes though, for anything I think is important, like exams, performances, the pope.

My religion is heavily based around silence, which is rather odd considering I want to make music my career. I am a Quaker (a branch of Christianity established at the turn of the 17th century) and our "Sunday Services" consist of collective silent worship, although anyone can stand up and say something if they feel inspired to. There are not many Quaker songs/hymns, as music is not incorporated into the meetings. However there are several Quaker music and drama societies, especially for young Quakers.

But I don't tend to pray, not really. And not for myself. I leave everything up to fate when it comes to exams; if I've prepared, I'll be fine, and nothing extra I say/do will change that. (I have several friends who are committed atheists, and I really value some of the things they have to say!)

There is a strong link for me.
It is only because I was in the choir at church that I was lucky enough, after several years of wanting and thinking it impossible, to begin piano lessons.
When we had a change of organist the outgoing one happened to tell us that the new one had been his piano teacher.
Luckily he didn't charge very much and i was allowed to go into church most days to practice until my aunt gave me her piano.

Now I am playing every week in church and see that as a way of giving back some of the gift that I was given all those years ago.

I think pieces of religious music are fantastic. Music is an amazing way to express any belief or emotion, and there's certainly a lot of both in any religion. It's interesting to see how music differs between religions as well - there are religions that are completely silent (e.g. Quakerism, a denomination of Christianity), compared with the huge volume of oratorios, masses and requiems that have been written throughout the centuries (and I realise here that I am confining this only to the Christian faith, simply because I don't know enough about other religions!!). Cheers Hulk, this is a really interesting topic.

I love religious music.

Further to reading members comments further down this thread,I've decided to edit this post. It is certainly very interesting and I'm very surprised to see just how many of us believe in God. Therefore my earlier comment was inappropriate.

My basic belief in getting through this Life is to treat people the way I expect to be treated. This can manifest itself in many ways, but I think helping people ( even little things like helping an old person across the road safely,opening doors for people wheeling a disabled person or pushing a buggy - even though some people don't bother to say thanks ) and doing good is "religion" enough for me.

Music is timeless, it's universal,it shows no boundaries in relation to human nature,but can be utilized by various creeds,organisations and so forth to their own particular advantage.

Sure, I am really religious...I want to be sort of like a Bach figure, a great composer of church music. I always pray before and after exams, even during exams. Especially recently, when I got really nervous on my Gr 6 exam (it was my first ABRSM exam) I just sort of kept praying. Then I prayed before I played a piece, asking God to help me, then I pray after a piece for thanksgiving. It's not too odd, but you can say I pray tens of times during difficult times like that-and sure, God doesn't always give me the best answer, but I'm always satisfied.

Hope I'm not getting too personal and off-topic here, but are either or both of you (hulk and DGA) born-again Christians?

Violinia

Although I don't go to church I do pray regularly and ask God for help in all sort of circumstances. I also ask my guardian angel for help and advice, which I hope won't seem too weird to other people on here.

This topic has started me thinking about the role of religion in Western music. So many composers, regardless of their own beliefs, have been inspired by religion or by religious themes. Where would Bach have been without his Lutheran faith and where would music be without works like his B minor Mass, St Matthew Passion and the church cantatas? Even non-believers such as Berlioz and Verdi were moved on occasions to create great religious works. Christianity has always played a central part in music but other religions have made contributions as well - Holst's settings of sacred Hindu texts, for example, or Bernstein and Judaism.

Yes, the mixing of religion and music are for me an essential part of my life. I have been, and remain, a church musician for most of my adult life (all styles, all sorts of music). I love to sing and play to the glory of God as my faith is very important to me and it nurtures all I personally do in music. (Before anyone asks, I am a "born again" Christian.)

However, when I teach I never ever try to impose my faith on my students (who all know that I have this background). If I'm asked about it, I am happy to share but I wouldn't ever try to persuade someone in the context of a music lesson or concert about faith - it's such a personal thing.

I pray everyday for my work with young and older musicians and for my own performances when I'm doing a concert or playing in church. I certainly pray for my students when they take their exams too, that God will give them courage and comfort and give wisdom and a sense of fair judgement to the examiner.

I am sure some will think I'm completely batty or that I am well out of order but that's me and what matters in my life. That said, I would totally respect anyone who didn't share my belief. If I pray for a candidate who I know is somewhat "hostile" to faith, I hope I can still ask for peace of mind and strength for them without compromising their own situation, rather as anyone could wish them well for the day (as, indeed, I also do).

A very interesting thread this one and I am enjoying reading the replies! Thanks for suggesting it Hulk!

QUOTE

A very interesting thread this one and I am enjoying reading the replies! Thanks for suggesting it Hulk!

Agreed!

For musicians who are also believers I think music and religion are often intertwined, and it can be almost impossible to separate the two.

Especially true perhaps for those of us who are church musicians, who play in church and who sing in choirs.

Like Oboist I don't start discussing religion or faith during a music lesson though - any more than I would try to give a music lesson during a church service! There are clues around for anyone who likes to notice - our choir service list is on view in the room where I teach (as are other things that I'm interested in); there may be one or two religious books around (we are great readers), but other topics are also represented - gardening, travel, humour and satire. All part of the paraphernalia of life.

Maggie

Much of what oboist says is what I'm about too, re relation of faith to work and policies with pupils etc.

I grew up going to church, but came to sure faith when at university. I wasn't much involved with music at church as I grew up, but in my teens was a choirmaster. After becoming a christian, I was introduced to "contemporary worship music", which I've taught some other christians in - it's the sort found on those Greatest Worship Songs CDs (or whatever they called them) that are advertised on TV from time to time (or found at wesleyowen.com if you've not come across it). This takes pop music styles and uses them to help create quite personal worship (in a group setting), and a sense of intimacy with God is particularly valued. It also values and draws upon other worship styles, including hymns.

I write some worship songs now, so my music and faith are thoroughly mixed together! In contemporary worship music there's lots of scope for keyboard playing based on chords, so the improvisation aspect I've learnt to do in this has been very useful in teaching composition and harmony in lessons - and with potential GCSE songwriters! Generally, my pupils are just aware I'm a christian from the blurb I give out when I start lessons (saying a bit about me, qualifications etc., as they do on concert programmes). Some of my adult pupils, when they ask at the end of a lesson what I'll do in my holidays I might say in passing that I'll be working on my worship songs, and some who are interested ask about it, but as Maggiemay was saying, there's the matter of context in these things.

In practice with my lessons, my faith means I'm asking Father things lots of the time, and asking for help of course! It keeps me careful with policies, and makes me uncomfortable when I realise what some pop songs are really about! (I teach singing too). It helps me have peace in difficult situations when they occur, helps me with working out priorities, and helps me as I keep trying to work out the attitudes to have regarding encouraging pupils to practise, forgiving, discipline, warmth, formality - keeping working for a right and good balance.

As to which is more important to me, I love music in my life, but my faith in having forgiveness from God is far more precious to me (to get to the root of the initial question for me). But nonetheless I've found (as someone was saying before, regarding great composers) that music is for me one of the best ways to relate with Father, as it expresses the emotions behind the words so well - which is why films have background music I guess, even though there don't seem to be so many film "musicals" with lots of singing these days. Music is so valuable in so many ways. I also love the way in which learning a musical instrument is such a good process for youngsters to go through, feeding and enriching their life and abilities in so many ways.

Well, there's how the two mix for me.

QUOTE (oboist @ Apr 9 2005, 03:17 PM)

If I pray for a candidate who I know is somewhat "hostile" to faith, I hope I can still ask for peace of mind and strength for them without compromising their own situation

interesting post, oboist. I remember a very firm atheist friend of mine had some personal bother (can't remember what it was) which he mentioned to a girl in an orchestra we were both in at the time. I was in a quite long period of lack of faith myself. We didn't know she was a Christian until she said "I'll say a prayer for you" and wrote a little note to remind herself in a notebook she had. I have always remembered that both myself and my friend found this very touching, because we recognised that within the girl (I think she was called Nicky)'s way of thinking this was a thoughtful and positive thing to do, and she was clearly not trying to impose her beliefs on my friend, she was just staying true to them herself. This contrasted quite starkly with the hostile and barrier building reception achieved by Christians on campus who knocked on doors or preached loudly at people in a fairly clumsy attempt to instantly "convert" people. I think rather than hitting on random people, Christians (or for that matter Muslims or any other faith) should try to demonstrate the benefits of their faith in their own lives, and be open to discuss their faith with the far smaller but much richer vein of people who may over a lifetime express their own interest in it.

As regards whether prayers of intercession work or not, I get the impression that they don't always work. I have in mind the prayers written on their cell walls by children during the holocaust, or the prayers said across the globe prior to the beheading of altruistic aid workers in Iraq. Or the prayers said for many a child or loved one who is lost to illness or injury. When I re-asserted my faith some years ago I decided that rather than try to explain why these things happen I would rather admit that I just don't know. That was pretty much all the answer that Job got when he said "In the cities the wounded and dying cry out, but God ignores their prayers"- God's answer was, in essence "you don't know everything Job". I also decided that the fact that I have been brought up in a Christian family does not invalidate my faith - it's part of who I am. I also decided that I'm prepared to find out that I'm wrong, because I find the Christian teachings attractive anyway. So if I get to heaven and somebody says "there's nobody here - that's it you're just dead" I will have no regrets because the Christian teachings are about how we live this life, not the next one, and the benefits of that are in this life, not the next one. If this world is no more than an entrance examination to get into heaven, then all the cruelty that exists doesn't really matter because it's all about what happens next - and I think this life is infinitely more important than that.

I have to say I have rather more faith in those prayers in which we ask God for the strength to do things ourselves - eg "please help us to help the family centre" as opposed to "please sort those kids out so we don't have to worry about them".

I have to admit although I do say a little prayer when I do a solo in Church, I do often get quite nervous and sweaty palmed, and what also seemed to work on one occasion was pretending to be a tanked up Violinia.

PS- such a different point that I'm putting it in a separate post. All this reading about the benefits of singing/ Kodaly method lead me to wonder whether the erosion of morning assembly and singing which used to be a daily event in my school is a tragedy from a purely musical and educational/ stimulation point of view, regardless of one's views about religion.

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 9 2005, 07:26 PM)

We didn't know she was a Christian until she said "I'll say a prayer for you" and wrote a little note to remind herself in a notebook she had. I have always remembered that both myself and my friend found this very touching, because we recognised that within the girl (I think she was called Nicky)'s way of thinking this was a thoughtful and positive thing to do, and she was clearly not trying to impose her beliefs on my friend, she was just staying true to them herself.

Yeah I have friend at band like that! I think she's a born again christian, and she talks about her church a lot more than she used to before.

I wasn't feeling very well one day at band and she just said "come on then, we'll say a prayer" I just looked at her like "you can't be serious!" . But it did actually work, whether it be because listening to her talking made me feel better, or because she was being nice and thoughtful, or an act of God! It was better than pretending to meditate and having humming noises in your ear from another, slightly more insane friend on my other side!

We did a swap, she prays for me if I have an exam, and I'm gonna send her reiki for her AS exam!

I used to really enjoy sining hymns every morning, not madrigals though like we got made to in year 6, but hymns. Aurally (sp), I was probably a lot better off in primary school when i couldn't read music properly, and did lots of singing. Things have got more harder as I learned to read music better, and when I started having clarinet lessons!

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 9 2005, 07:26 PM)

I have to admit although I do say a little prayer when I do a solo in Church,  I do often get quite nervous and sweaty palmed,  and what also seemed to work on one occasion was pretending to be a tanked up Violinia.

I beg your pardon?!?

Did I once mention I like a stiff drink before going on stage? Must've done...

Anyway it's true. gets me in the right mood - all buzzy and sparkly - and then - the night is young!

Violinia

PS glad it helped, Zoda!

Hi,

I 'm Christian and whenever I had a practical exam, I pray and hope to get good results!! That really works everytime!!( I get distinction for everything I take).

I remember when I did my Grade4 on the violin, I didn't really practised it well and I screw up a lot in the exam, then after the exam , I prayed again and as the result, I got 130 which is just on the edge of distinction!!

I really couldn't believe how useful praying is!!

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 9 2005, 08:16 PM)

Hope I'm not getting too personal and off-topic here, but are either or both of you (hulk and DGA) born-again Christians? Violinia

Sure, I am...but what are you asking that question for?

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ Apr 10 2005, 04:33 AM)

I remember when I did my Grade4 on the violin, I didn't really practised it well and I screw up a lot in the exam, then after the exam , I prayed again and as the result, I got 130 which is just on the edge of distinction!! I really couldn't believe how useful praying is!!

Perhaps the examiner decided you didn't screw up as much as you thought.I very much doubt God had anything to do with it as the examiner's decision would have already been in writing.

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 10 2005, 04:10 PM)

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ Apr 10 2005, 04:33 AM) I remember when I did my Grade4 on the violin, I didn't really practised it well and I screw up a lot in the exam, then after the exam , I prayed again and as the result, I got 130 which is just on the edge of distinction!! I really couldn't believe how useful praying is!! Perhaps the examiner decided you didn't screw up as much as you thought.I very much doubt God had anything to do with it as the examiner's decision would have already been in writing.

Sorry, but...God isn't a machine that responses only f you pray. He has His own plans. If pianist_1210 had practiced enough, and a lot of other factors count, too (but the final decision is in God's hands anyway) he might get a good mark. So before pianist_1210 started to pray, God had already decided on what results would be gotten.

Sorry if this seems more like a sermon, but...after all I AM the son of a pastor and I just can't stand it like that! But keep to your own side if you're not convinced. I'm not trying to offend you.

Interesting thread, with some very thought-provoking responses.

My theory is that God has far more important things to worry about than if I pass an exam or not, and whatever the result, it's all part of a greater plan, even if I'm not happy with the result, and if the eventual outcome isn't immediately obvious.

I do alot of choral singing, and most choral music is to sacred texts. Knowing what the texts mean in English helps enormously with interpretation, and having an understanding of the deeper meaning helps as well. At least, I think so

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 10 2005, 10:17 AM)

Sorry, but...God isn't a machine that responses only f you pray. He has His own plans. If pianist_1210 had practiced enough, and a lot of other factors count, too (but the final decision is in God's hands anyway) he might get a good mark. So before pianist_1210 started to pray, God had already decided on what results would be gotten. Sorry if this seems more like a sermon, but...after all I AM the son of a pastor and I just can't stand it like that! But keep to your own side if you're not convinced. I'm not trying to offend you.

DGA

No offence taken. But...and I'm sorry for saying this,so please don't take offence,if God had already decided on the examiner's decision ie controlling the examiner's mind, because you have stated that God had already decided on the results,what is the point of someone doing loads of practise? You also say He has his own plans,so what is the point of prayer then as He has already decided the outcome?

I will keep to my side.I was brought up an RC and I just cannot accept God can spread himself so wide. Nor can I accept God as described by human beings. Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say. Sometimes I lean towards atheism and sometimes towards agnosticism. It is certainly a bleak thought if nothing exists after death.

The Earth/Universe has been around for millions of years,including the dinosaurs! The Bible only goes as far back as a couple of thousands of years and was written by many authors. Christianity was dying out but St Paul revived it! Was Darwin incorrect? What about all the other Religions? Are they wrong? Or is it a case of human beings NEED something to get through this Life?

Could God be the same as Fate or Destiny? Who knows,because I certainly don't.

Let,s not start a discussion about Religion as this Forum is not the place. But let's stop silly statements like God had already preordained the results of a music exam.

QUOTE

if God had already decided on the examiner's decision ie controlling the examiner's mind, because you have stated that God had already decided on the results,what is the point of someone doing loads of practise? You also say He has his own plans,so what is the point of prayer then as He has already decided the outcome?

It's a bit difficult to explain, but what I meant wasn't God was controlling everything, but He knows the results of the examination before it was even done! God made everything with the rules we know now: rules of physics, nature, etc. So if you practiced, you could have had a good result. But you could get unlucky, too: what if you did a mistake even though you could do it perfectly in practice? God helped him in his examination.

QUOTE

Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say.

This isn't a matter of who has been back to say but by your faith. Are you a Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.? That will lead you in believing what really happens. You've never seen it or have any proofs, but you believe in what that religion teaches about what happens. Sort of like you almost always believed your parents when you were little, even though there wasn't any real proof.

QUOTE

The Earth/Universe has been around for millions of years,including the dinosaurs! The Bible only goes as far back as a couple of thousands of years and was written by many authors.

There have been many arguments and explainations about this: how dinosaurs could exist only a few thousand years ago, and so on.

QUOTE

Christianity was dying out but St Paul revived it!

Um...when was Christianity dying out? During the first century, the Romans persecuted and killed many of them, but they kept rising in numbers. People like Paul and other disciples and preachers helped increase this number.

QUOTE

Was Darwin incorrect?

Sure he was. But it isn't worth it to debate this now.

QUOTE

Let,s not start a discussion about Religion as this Forum is not the place. But let's stop silly statements like God had already preordained the results of a music exam.

OK, I agree and I apologize to everyone about this post. I will not post any more content about religion, because the forum members here have different beliefs and religions. But I will still pray before and during an exam.

THIS IS NOT AN OFFENCE!

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 11 2005, 11:34 AM)

OK, I agree and I apologize to everyone about this post. I will not post any more content about religion, because the forum members here have different beliefs and religions. But I will still pray before and during an exam. THIS IS NOT AN OFFENCE!

DGA

Great! You keep praying is this is the way it works for you. I'm not going to reply to your points,although I would have if this was in a different Forum.

RC stands for Roman Catholic btw.

Best Wishes

Although i am a christian, i have to say that i dont pray before/during/after exams, as i feel it is up to me how well i do and praying wont make it any different. Surely God has bigger things to worry about than whether i pass an exam or not!

There's an old Spanish proverb "God helps those who help themselves." We're all born with talents and abilities which could be described as God-given but what we actually do with them is up to us. If prayer alone could help someone become a great musician I'd be the next James Galway by now! God doesn't so much plan our future as show us the way if we ask.

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 9 2005, 11:30 PM)

Did I once mention I like a stiff drink before going on stage?   Must've done... Anyway it's true.  gets me in the right mood - all buzzy and sparkly - and then - the night is young!  :D

I think it was a conversation with Rhapsodin *waaaah - nostalgic moment* in which (in fairness) you advised having just a little tipple and NOT more than that, so my use of "tanked up" was a bit unfair -sorry!

I had read your post shortly before playing, and I got a sudden image that in my shoes you'd be having good fun - enjoying it - not the attitude of ''aaaargh they're watching me" but rather - "well that seems like a convenient moment for a little razz on my violin" - something you can't ordinarily do in the middle of a church service. And it did settle me into actually enjoying myself. The amazing thing was my dad was in the congregation and it was the one and only time he has ever enjoyed my playing or said anything nice about it - he described it as a "bravura performance".

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 11 2005, 11:34 AM)

THIS IS NOT AN OFFENCE!

Ok,ok..that it easy please!!
Sometimes although how much I practise, my exam will not come out as good as I practise, so I reckon praying helps

PS. I pray before all of my performances and actually all of them go pretty well!!
Thank goodness!!

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 11:17 AM)

I was brought up an RC. Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say.

I wondered why as a Roman Catholic you haven't remembered the Easter story of Jesus rising from the dead?

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 10 2005, 06:52 AM)

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 9 2005, 08:16 PM) Hope I'm not getting too personal and off-topic here, but are either or both of you (hulk and DGA) born-again Christians? Violinia Sure, I am...but what are you asking that question for?

Just curious, that's all. And it's interesting to see how many posters here are Christians - surely more than the average number in the general population?

Violinia

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 9 2005, 07:34 PM)

PS-  such a different point that I'm putting it in a separate post.  All this reading about the benefits of singing/ Kodaly method lead me to wonder whether the erosion of morning assembly and singing which used to be a daily event in my school is a tragedy from a purely musical and educational/ stimulation point of view,  regardless of one's views about religion.

Very good point, Zoda. I'm not a Christian but I think the removal of the daily assembly is a sad thing in the musical sense. Sure I found the religious side boring and tedious, but our assemblies were like this:

We all sat down in the hall, and for about 10 minutes sat in complete silence while the school pianist, who was actually very good, played several (short) pieces from her repertoire. A feeling of peace and tranquility would abound, and I can vividly remember some of those pieces to this day, one of them in particular which I can recall note for note and would give anything to be able to find and learn to play, but I have no idea what it is.

The first part of the melody went:

(3) = triplets, upper case (bold)= semibreve, upper case = minims, lower case= crotchets, lower case (smaller font)= quavers, lower case (smaller font, bold)= semiquavers

Time signature: 4/4 key: C major tempo - crotchet about 60 Each line represents a bar.

The top line was the melody and the accompaniment was quite modal.

cef(3) g b g e - then down to:
A - then up an octave to:
aab(3) cdag
A
gabc bag(3) a g
e d C
ccc(3) eee(3) gg f#
ggg(3) bb cc d
e f# d e

If you can make any sense of that whatsoever, you're a genuis.

Any genuises out there willing to write it down and figure out what it is???

Anyway, after all that beautiful music, we'd sing at least 3 or 4 hymns, all of which are engrained in my memory, especially the one about sailors in danger, and "there is a green hill far away", and the end of term one, which always made me cry. No I wasn't a fan of school but I did love the social side and there was something about the end of term one which.... sob!

Everyone, or pretty much everyone, sang their hearts out, and the lack of singing in schools compared to how much we did back then is a travesty in my view.

No wonder so many kids are terrified to sing in front of anyone - they're rarely ever done it.

Violinia

I went to a singing Masterclass the other day, and it was amazing talking to people how many of them started their singing in Church even if they don't go now.

It seems such a pity that many churches, round here anyway, do not have a tradition of encouraging music and choirs. I know that churches are struggling (in some cases) for numbers, but what of singing in a generation's time when there was nowhere for people to 'begin'? They certainly don't sing in collective worship much, especialy at secondary level where most of them seem too embarrassed to sing now.

One of the pimaries round here though has just started a choir which involves the whole school, and they have just had a grant of £12,000 to enrich the children's music making. The initiative started and is run by the church and meets after school...

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 13 2005, 09:20 PM)

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 9 2005, 11:30 PM) Did I once mention I like a stiff drink before going on stage?   Must've done... Anyway it's true.  gets me in the right mood - all buzzy and sparkly - and then - the night is young!   I think it was a conversation with Rhapsodin *waaaah - nostalgic moment* in which (in fairness) you advised having just a little tipple and NOT more than that, so my use of "tanked up" was a bit unfair -sorry! I had read your post shortly before playing, and I got a sudden image that in my shoes you'd be having good fun - enjoying it - not the attitude of ''aaaargh they're watching me" but rather - "well that seems like a convenient moment for a little razz on my violin" - something you can't ordinarily do in the middle of a church service. And it did settle me into actually enjoying myself. The amazing thing was my dad was in the congregation and it was the one and only time he has ever enjoyed my playing or said anything nice about it - he described it as a "bravura performance".

Wow Zoda you've no idea how happy that makes me! Cos in the end, surely playing music is about creativity and giving pleasure to people, not being put on trial, although it's so easy to forget this sometimes, and audiences can sometimes seem to be unforgiving even when they're not... I'm so glad you were able to let go and enjoy yourself!

It took me ages to realise that I could actually enjoy being on stage, and I think the first time it really hit home was after a horrible injury to one of the fingers on my left hand, resulting in a hospital stay, a general anaesthetic and 12 stitches (aaarggh!!!) a few years back that left me unable to play for weeks and in fact not knowing whether I'd ever be able to play again.

The first time back on stage again felt like a miracle and I realised for the first time that it felt like a homely place, not a scary place. I just thought: there's all these people here, and four of us just happen to be the ones doing the entertaining, and I have no idea why one of them is me, but that's just how it is, and I'm here to give of my best and it's a fantastic privilege - I nearly lost it for ever but it's been given back again.

And since then I've always loved and appreciated it more than words can say. If I ever start to forget I remind myself of those weeks back then

Talking of performing in churches, funnily enough a couple of years ago we did a jazz gig in a church of all places, and they were serving beer - I couldn't believe it.

Found myself sitting in a pew before going on, holding a pint pot of beer and putting it down on the hymnbook shelf between sips. I said to one of the organisers: "I can hardly believe this - a bar in a church!" and this sort of trendy vicar guy said to me "Where on earth have you been? It must be years since you've been in a church - we really rock out in churches these days, etc etc..."

I'm still puzzled - is this normal?!?

Anyway, it was a great gig - even the Bishop of Bath and Wells was there and a fantastic time was had by all.

Aided no doubt by the pint of beer I didn't even have to leave the church to down.

Violinia

QUOTE (trio @ Apr 14 2005, 09:33 AM)

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 11:17 AM) I was brought up an RC. Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say. I wondered why as a Roman Catholic you haven't remembered the Easter story of Jesus rising from the dead?

ahhhh... could the reason be that the resurrection is, like the Genesis creation story, the story of Noah, rather legendary these days?

Speaking of the Creation story..
I see someone earlier denying the findings of evolution - it is amazing that Darwin's research still goes unrecognised in some quarters. After all, the science of Zoology would not exist without the evidence of evolution.

Music and Religion then - I think they are perfect bed fellows. Imagery meets imagery.

A perfect example of this is Haydn's "Creation" oratorio.

QUOTE

especially the one about sailors in danger

oh hear us when we cry to thee
for those in peril on the sea ??????????

(Eternal Father strong to save)

I agree about the loss of school assembly. Many of my pupils seem to do little or no music at school too, but I've stood on that soapbox before .......

Maggie

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 14 2005, 06:44 PM)

QUOTE (trio @ Apr 14 2005, 09:33 AM) QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 11:17 AM) I was brought up an RC. Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say. I wondered why as a Roman Catholic you haven't remembered the Easter story of Jesus rising from the dead? ahhhh... could the reason be that the resurrection is, like the Genesis creation story, the story of Noah, rather legendary these days? Speaking of the Creation story.. I see someone earlier denying the findings of evolution - it is amazing that Darwin's research still goes unrecognised in some quarters. After all, the science of Zoology would not exist without the evidence of evolution. Music and Religion then - I think they are perfect bed fellows. Imagery meets imagery. A perfect example of this is Haydn's "Creation" oratorio.

Well, I guess a lot of people these days think that religion is rubbish. They will regret that later. I think Hadyn's Creation is a magnificent work.

QUOTE

cef(3) g b g e - then down to: A - then up an octave to: aab(3) cdag A gabc bag(3) a g e d C ccc(3) eee(3) gg f# ggg(3) bb cc d e f# d e

Violinia - I have transcribed this in my head (I think!) and so far it doesn't ring much of a bell, so either I've never heard it before, or I'm not a genius - (probably both actually).

Just one thing - I find I'm hearing it with the first triplet forming an anacrusis. Presumably this is wrong since it wouldn't fit the bars - but just thought it was worth asking!

Maggie

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 14 2005, 12:08 PM)

I'm still puzzled - is this normal?!?

Funnily enough it is in my experience! People's perceptions of what goes on in church buildings now is often very far from the truth. We don't have a church hall any more - on main road, no parking, and up a steep hill - so what we used to do there, we now do in church, including the harvest supper. And that's a jolly affair indeed!

A slight digression - I was horrified to learn yesterday that the two NQTs at one of my schools had NO IDEA why we celebrate Easter...

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 14 2005, 11:08 AM)

Anyway, it was a great gig - even the Bishop of Bath and Wells was there and a fantastic time was had by all.

I met the Bishop of Bath and Wells recently and he is definitely a big jazz fan!

I thought that RE had to be covered as part of the National Curriculum, but still many children and young people seem to have no idea. It is a shame that secondary schools have no singing at all as in assemblies and they never get to learn hymns. This is quite a big change from 20 or more years ago. I can remember people hating assemblies and not wanting to sing when I was at school but at least they got to hear the tunes and would remember them in later life.

QUOTE (trio @ Apr 14 2005, 03:03 PM)

QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 14 2005, 11:08 AM) Anyway, it was a great gig - even the Bishop of Bath and Wells was there and a fantastic time was had by all. I met the Bishop of Bath and Wells recently and he is definitely a big jazz fan!

yes you're right there. I had a great chat with him in the break and he told me one of his sons is a jazz musician. He seemed like a really friendly, unstuffy, lovely man.

Violinia

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Apr 14 2005, 12:37 PM)

QUOTE cef(3) g b g e - then down to: A - then up an octave to: aab(3) cdag A gabc bag(3) a g e d C ccc(3) eee(3) gg f# ggg(3) bb cc d e f# d e Violinia - I have transcribed this in my head (I think!) and so far it doesn't ring much of a bell, so either I've never heard it before, or I'm not a genius - (probably both actually). Just one thing - I find I'm hearing it with the first triplet forming an anacrusis. Presumably this is wrong since it wouldn't fit the bars - but just thought it was worth asking! Maggie

Yes you're right Maggie, I wrote it down wrong!!! And I'm beginning to think it's in It's in 3/4 time. If I get time later I'll write it out again, but as you don't recognise it...

It must be a very obscure piece because I've never been able to find anyone who knows it and I've been asking around for years!

Violinia

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 14 2005, 12:24 PM)

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 14 2005, 06:44 PM) QUOTE (trio @ Apr 14 2005, 09:33 AM) QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 11:17 AM) Nobody knows what happens when you die because no one has been back to say. I wondered why as a Roman Catholic you haven't remembered the Easter story of Jesus rising from the dead? ahhhh... could the reason be that the resurrection is, like the Genesis creation story, the story of Noah, rather legendary these days? Speaking of the Creation story.. I see someone earlier denying the findings of evolution - it is amazing that Darwin's research still goes unrecognised in some quarters. After all, the science of Zoology would not exist without the evidence of evolution. Music and Religion then - I think they are perfect bed fellows. Imagery meets imagery. A perfect example of this is Haydn's "Creation" oratorio. Well, I guess a lot of people these days think that religion is rubbish. They will regret that later. I think Hadyn's Creation is a magnificent work.

I do not disagree with DGA - Haydn's "Creation" is a magnificent choral work and his Masses are as well. Handel and Mendelssohn are further examples of composers that have found the perfect expression for some Judaeo-Christian myths and legends.

My point was that the setting of these stories of the is the perfect example of Imagery meeting Imagery. Vocal music especially can enhance legends, the supernatural and fantasy - at various times great operas have been written about little else.

Also consider the Christmas period - I would say that more choral music has been written for this part of the calendar than any other. Religion and music, hand in hand.

For the above reason, I see music, religion, mythology and children's stories as natural bedfellows.

Also I resent any suggestion that I find religion "rubbish". Every culture known to mankind has wrestled with questions -

* Why are we here?
* What happens when we die?

A wide-ranging array of answers have been found to the above, none of which can be physically substantiated. And that is where music can play its part.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 14 2005, 09:00 PM)

Every culture known to mankind has wrestled with questions - * Why are we here? * What happens when we die? A wide-ranging array of answers have been found to the above, none of which can be physically substantiated. And that is where music can play its part.

Indeed, music is fantastic for sharing together and sharing with others things that we hold dear. Also, you seem keen on truth and I respect that.

Music does indeed fit with the nature of "faith" rather well. Indeed, the bible itself doesn't set up the new testament as giving proof to the world such that everyone "has" to believe. Rather it's set up as "seek and you shall find" on an INDIVIDUAL proof basis and "faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see" so that it's not a country that gets proof, but an individual that gets personal proof - of which they can have absolute certainty but can't force onto anyone else ("assurance"). And the bible says "I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life" - from John's letters. It's just like the aspect that Jesus didn't give the interpretation of his parables to everyone, just to the disciples - those who were seeking answers. I myself got personal proof through the evidence of the resurrection as well as many other things that have proved themselves to me over and over again. People can find books examining the evidence in good christian bookshops such as the one I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, many written by people who started out to disprove it. It's not up to me to prove it to an individual so they're forced to believe. It's up to individuals to seek truth with integrity, and us in the church to share. How else could God set it up so that it's to do with loving God (the 1st commandment), rather than being forced into a relationship with Him. Music fits with this nature of biblical "faith" as well as then for "worship" and, for people generally, us all singing of things we "treasure".

Music, then, is a way in which many people share such ideas with each other and with people generally - Amazing Grace has been a hit, along with other such songs. Music includes ideas that build society (love, peace, justice, charity) as well as personal convictions that people want to offer to others (faith, moral rights & wrongs, some political ideals, world visions [e.g. John Lennon's "Imagine"]). Some of the music with faith ideas, has to be sought out as it's not in the mainstream pop/classical charts - but some of it is.

Music is a very gentle and fair way of sharing ideas, as you just write a composition and people are free to choose to perform it for their audience or not (but not a teacher making someone learn it, of course!). And you can take it or leave it when you hear it. Whether it's an Andrew Lloyd-Webber musical or Peter Maxwell-Davies or whatever.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 14 2005, 09:00 PM)

.Also I resent any suggestion that I find religion "rubbish". Every culture known to mankind has wrestled with questions - * Why are we here? * What happens when we die? A wide-ranging array of answers have been found to the above, none of which can be physically substantiated. And that is where music can play its part.

Haven't you just substantiated my original statement? The Bible is just a book added to by various authors over the years...shall we use the Julian calendar?

Viva Music!

PS Has anyone here studied "The Crucible" written by Marilyn Monroe's ex... Arthur Miller?Set text for O and A levels. Perhaps this supplies at least one part of the answer.

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 15 2005, 06:13 PM)

PS Has anyone here studied "The Crucible" written by Marilyn Monroe's ex... Arthur Miller?Set text for O and A levels. Perhaps this supplies at least one part of the answer.

A study in mass hysteria, religious bigotry and the most unhealthy kind of fundamentalism, all of which have disturbing parallels today. The witch-hunting Puritans depicted by Miller can't be taken to be representative of Christ's message, though. Instead they represent a perversion of His teachings in the same way that the McCarthyite interrogators Miller was attacking in his play represent a corruption of the ideals of democracy and freedom.

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Apr 15 2005, 11:55 AM)

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 14 2005, 09:00 PM) Every culture known to mankind has wrestled with questions - * Why are we here? * What happens when we die? A wide-ranging array of answers have been found to the above, none of which can be physically substantiated.  And that is where music can play its part. Music is a way in which many people share such ideas with each other and with people generally - Amazing Grace has been a hit, along with other such songs. Music includes ideas that build society (love, peace, justice, charity) as well as personal convictions that people want to offer to others (faith, moral rights & wrongs, some political ideals, world visions [e.g. John Lennon's "Imagine"]). Music is a very gentle and fair way of sharing ideas, as you just write a composition and people are free to choose to perform it for their audience or not (but not a teacher making someone learn it, of course!).

Speaking of expressing fundamental world views through music .. there was a very powerful song performed by Bette Midler (written by Julie Gold) that did this to absolute perfection a few years ago. Beautiful melody, beautiful arrangement and a message that obviously resonated with millions.

How often do we stand back and look at our lives "from a distance", and try to UNDERSTAND the big picture - rather than focussing on our personal religion, our personal battles, our own prejudices even?

How many of us see religion and art as simply two areas of interest for philosophy; i,e.What can a religion and an art form such a music do to enhance that human spirit?

The lyrics I refer to can be found all over the Internet but here they are for you now.

From a distance
The world looks blue and green
And the snow capped mountains white
From a distance
The ocean meets the stream
And the eagle takes to flight

From a distance
There is harmony
And it echoes through the land
Its the voice of hope
Its the voice of peace
Its the voice of every man

From a distance
We all have enough
And no one is in need
And there are no guns, no bombs and no disease
No hungry mouths to feed

From a Distance
We are instruments
Marching in a common band
Playing songs of hope
Playing songs of peace
They are the songs of every man

Chorus

God is watching us
God is watching us
God is watching us
From a distance

From a distance
You look like my friend
Even though we are at war
From a distance
I just cannot comprehend
What all this fightings for

From a distance
There is harmony
And it echoes through the land
And its the hope of hopes
Its the love of loves
Its the heart of every man

I won't comment on the quality of singing of Bette, but she succeeded with the most basic requirement - she put the song across.