I was about 8 when I began learning the piano and 10 when I started the flute. Despite wanting to give up the flute rather early on, I 'perserved' and ended up going to the RCM to study it!

Some pupils I have just seem too young to be able to concentrate for any length of time e.g. I have a couple of 6 year olds who last about 10 mins before squirming around on the stool! I have tried alternating books (and using child friendly books) and a bit of clapping/easy aural. Any other ideas?!

Im pretty certain it all depends on the individual and how motivated they are to learn but any useful ideas would help greatly!!!

Many thanks!

• RCM flute grad
  
• flute and piano teacher
  

• oh...and a bit of recorder/fife/piccolo!!!!
  

I was 6 when I started piano and started violin a few years later, followed by several other instruments shortly after that.

I teach some 6 - 7year old too and find its hard to get them to concentrate for long so for the first two terms (at least - depending on the child) I give them a 20 minute lesson. You don't say whether they are flute or piano students, but in addition to easy aural I use flash cards. I also use very easy theory books and reacently discovered 'Theory made easy for little children' by Lina Ng. Children love this book because as well as colouring in there are stickers to be used instead of just writing in answers.

I agree with you about concentration levels. I started the piano at 8, which I find for most children is ideal, as their attention span is longer and progress tends to be faster. That said, I do teach a lot of children aged 6 or so-my youngest pupil at the moment is 5, and I do break the lessons up a lot with games related to note reading, rhythm, note values, and pitch. I find the lessons need to be shorter than the typical half hour, and broken up with lots of short activities. I wouldn't expect most 6 year olds to be able to sit at the piano and play for the whole lesson. Of course, it varies a lot from child to child-I have one little girl who started at 5, and progressed more at the speed of a 7 year old. I think young children can be successfully started off on an instrument, but parents need to be aware that progress in the sense of reaching a grade 1 standard, may be slower than in those starting later. However, a lot of good foundations can be laid at this age. The most vital thing is that the children enjoy their lessons-if they dont, then it's much better to wait till they are older.

I have a few six year old pupils and find it works to break the lesson up into several small chunks so there's a change of activity. At some point in every lesson I always do some sort of improvising or 'doodling'! They love this - total (well, nearly !) freedom to play and make up things, books all put away.
Playing 'chinesey' type music is a great hit. They can play one note or groups of two (missing one black note out in the middle) whilst I play a rhythmic bass. We can swap over, vary the dynamics, articulation, etc. Question and answer is also fun. We pretend we are talking using the piano - just give them a limited no. of notes, say first 3 from blues scale, or CDE, whatever comes to mind. Try to imagine a musical argument, or someone who is sad being cheered up by their friend,etc. Get them to think what has been talked about - it's amazing what they'll come up with. I also do a little thing using modes - very simple - white notes from C, then D (dorian mode -sounds very French and folky if played with a drone bass) There's a bass line I use playing 4ths and 5ths but I shall have to think how to explain how to play it. Sounds just like Bach! The littlies love doing this and always ask to do it.They are also thrilled to invent something that sounds so complicated and clever!

I started violin at 4, recorder at 5, piano at 6, singing at 11, viola at 14, French horn at 16, guitar at 16 and organ at 16. I think it really does depend on the individual on how well they can concentrate at a young age.

As a newbie to The Forum Im finding it very useful! Thank you for all your ideas! I have a samll question though - I dont get the little blue writing at the bottom of everyones comments?!!! How do you do that?!!

Yes, I think concentration levels are one of the main challenges with children who start really young.

I started just before 7, and as far as I remember it worked out ok !

I think as several others have said it's important to vary activities frequently and perhaps do some things that involve moving around the room - you can combine movement with simple rhythm games. I think as teachers we need to keep an eye on how well children react / absorb and assess how much of the lesson we can usefully devote to the stuff that needs quiet concentration. Not only do children vary one to the other, but they themselves often vary from week to week too.

However - I had one 6 year old a few years ago who used to flag at exactly the same time in her lesson for the first term or so. I could almost have set the clock by it ....after 20 minutes she would sit up, stretch her arms above her head, and say "I'm tired now!"

Twenty minutes is long enough for some youngsters - however if a 30 lesson fits better into your timetable you can easily incorporate some musical games. I find nearly all children perk up at the sign of some rhythm clapping - if your space is limited you can get them to sit in your chair, or even just stand up.

Maggie

It is called a signature, go to My Controls at the top of the page and then 'Edit Signature'

thanks Nicki!! i wondered how to do it!

I was 8 when i started violin, about 10 for the flute, same for descant recorder, 13 when i started teaching myself treble recorder (got myself up to grade 3 then got a teacher) and 14 when i tried the piano

i used to get stickers when i was little!! My violin teacher used to make it fun, she let me choose some of the songs and played the piano along with me, and we used to do simple duets as well

i was 5 when i started piano, 10 when i started cello, and thats it
yeah, games worked well for me too.

I have never taken a piano pupil younger than seven. Concentration is part of the reason but hand size is also important. Leg length can also be a problem when they start pedalling but there are devices on the market that get round this problem. There are always exceptional youngsters of course and its best to judge each prospective pupil on their merits.

Yes Decibel - I have found leg length to be an issue quite recently! A 9 year old is trying to use it but she has found out for herself that by moving the stool backwards slightly it actually helps! But then.....she has some issues reaching the keys!!! Think perhaps we may leave the pedal for a while.....
But the young ones are fascinated byt the pedals and the sounds they create!!

i was 8 when i started piano but ive stopped off and on for ages, only now am i doing it properly.i started clarinet when i was 14, and sax and flute when i was 17.

i used to play violin which i started at 8

I started piano at 6 and stopped at 17. Began again at 19.
Started violin at 8 and stopped at 12. Beginning again at 21.
Started guitar at 17, still playing.
Started singing at 20, and harmonica at 20 also.

I find my ambition and concentration is miles better now than it ever was.

QUOTE (noodle @ Apr 10 2005, 10:52 AM)

I also use very easy theory books and reacently discovered 'Theory made easy for little children' by Lina Ng. Children love this book because as well as colouring in there are stickers to be used instead of just writing in answers.

Yes, I like this book too-I haven't used it yet with an awful lot of people but will be using it more and more-I also like the way it reinforces the same points in different ways-and the stickers are great too!

I was 5 when I started teaching myself the keyboard, 11 when I started the clarinet, 5 when I started the recorder, 14 when I started learning guitar, 17 when I started learning the flute and 9 when I started to learn the occareena and 7 when I started to play the mouth organ...

peace and love amy-jane xx

i was 10 when i started piano, i think it was rather late, i'd prefer to start at 7!

I use "Theory made easy for little children" by Lina Ng too, my pupils love it!!

I was 13 and 1/2 when i started my first piano lesson!!(which was 2 and 3/4 years ago)

QUOTE (carky @ Apr 11 2005, 07:48 AM)

i was 10 when i started piano, i think it was rather late, i'd prefer to start at 7!

you call that late??
how about me then ??

I think it is fine to start an instrument such as piano at 5 or 6. I was 7 actually.

You have to do it fully accepting all the limitations - concentration spans, ease of distractions, etc. Consider taking a very small group at a time, by rotation round the circle, to get more knowledge transmitted in a single session. Consider Suzuki for a few years as well.

But I believe that an early start creates deep foundations. Also I think that the rote matters of playing 5-finger pieces in one hand, nursery rhymes, physical playing setup - all lend themselves to a very young person, more so than a child over 10 say.

With the above foundations, the above average child can be a well-rounded, confident and deeply established musician by the time they are 12 or 13.

I was 8, and doing all the usuals - piano, brownies, ballet, swimming... wanted to drop piano at about age 10 but did a deal with parents where brownies and ballet could go if I kept piano up. I did a grade each year, practical plus theory.

I suppose at 8 you're sufficiently advanced in reading and so on at school that you can tackle theory alongside the practical exams.

I teach class music to groups ranging from 10 to 35 children. The lessons are between 30 and 50 minutes long and the children range in age from 4 to 11.

Kodaly teachers are trained to structure lessons so that children learn in the best way that they can in any given lesson length.

There is an introductory activity which sharpens the children's listening and attention and settles them in the right frame of mind for the lesson ahead. Then there is a section which revises known material but which builds up and prepares for the part of the lesson which requires the most concentration. Following the high-level concentration section there is a refreshing fun/play element (which will reappear in another lesson, maybe in a different guise and for a different purpose), then a short section which requires moderate concentration, then a wind-down/ending activity.

This is VERY hard to do! It is the thing that takes the longest to learn how to do...but the benefits are clear for all to see.

Someone in Hungary did research on when the optimum time is for the maximum learning potential in any given lesson time (I think it's around the Golden Section point!) and concluded that if you try to teach 'big things' away from that optimum learning time then the learning will not be as effective.

Certainly I would say you must NEVER wait until a child is tired of an activity before you change it - you have basically lost them for the rest of the lesson if you do. It is part of the teacher's skill to divine the moment BEFORE this happens...

So yes, for younger children in particular you must change and vary the activity frequently. The most effective teaching will occur using a similar structure to the one I describe above; it will be the most effective if all the activities are linked in some way (an aspect of the first activity leads into/becomes the second activity, and so on).

Young children ARE capable of coping with a lesson of 30 minutes or more IF it is structured well.

Sorry, think I've written a lecture here...

A number of we adults started well into our 40s.

No substitute for starting as young as possible for obvious reasons. Wish I had started when I was 6 or 7!

But as many of you teachers say, the onus is on the teacher to keep the interest alive, be imaginative in teaching techniques and on the parents not to push them through the grades too quickly. I would have loved a nice comfortable ascent to grade 8 between ages 7 and 18 while the brain cells were still alive. Oh well... in my dreams!

Just a thought... Most classroom teachers specialise in one or two age groups. Instrumental teachers tend to take on students of all ages. My youngest is 8, my oldest early-retired, and most are between 13 and 18. My teacher training is in post-16 and adult age groups.

Children learn very differently at different ages, and what might be suitable for an older age group will not necessarily work with younger children. My 8-year-old beginner is the youngest child I have taught one-to-one, and I'm finding I have to structure lessons in a completely different way from my early-retired beginner, even though I'm having to teach the same things to both.

It's likely that different teachers will be better equipped to teach some age groups rather than others because of training and personal preference. Fortunately for me, I really like teaching teenagers.

I was 13 when I started the flute but stupidly gave it up after less than a year. I didn't start again until I was 43. In some ways it's actually harder to learn when you're older as you have so many more demands on your time and the little grey cells aren't as active as they once were! I've been thinking about taking up the clarinet again as well but I'm not sure if I could cope with two instruments at my advanced age!!

Yes you could woodwind!! good on you for starting up again! I am aware of the issues for the 'older' learner but i hope that when I am in my 40s i will still have the motivation and curiosity to learn something new! I was sure my mother promised i could take up the cello once i had competed Grade 8 on both flute and piano.....but I havent seen any sign of it lurking. May have to bring that up in conversation next time i go home!

x

QUOTE (flutey toot @ Apr 12 2005, 08:47 PM)

Yes you could woodwind!! good on you for starting up again! I am aware of the issues for the 'older' learner but i hope that when I am in my 40s i will still have the motivation and curiosity to learn something new! I was sure my mother promised i could take up the cello once i had competed Grade 8 on both flute and piano.....but I havent seen any sign of it lurking. May have to bring that up in conversation next time i go home! x

I'm definitely considering giving the clarinet a go. Thanks for the encouragement, flutey toot. Hope the cello turns up soon!

QUOTE (woodwind @ Apr 12 2005, 07:32 PM)

I was 13 when I started the flute but stupidly gave it up after less than a year. I didn't start again until I was 43. In some ways it's actually harder to learn when you're older as you have so many more demands on your time and the little grey cells aren't as active as they once were!

I also think that the young child has accumulated less of the mental and physical stresses of the education system, employment, relationships and other responsibilities. Issues of relaxation, balanced arm and general flow and co-ordination can be easier to achieve because you don't need to undo anything.

Also the wear and tear on the musculo-skeletal system of the adult is not an obstacle for the young child.

Looking at this another way - has anybody heard of a child of 5 or 6 needing to get into Yoga, Alexander Technique or Pilates?

Provided the parent/caregiver is prepared to make the investment, and is prepared to be patient, I see no reason why learning an instrument should be any later than starting school or taking up a sport. It is all learning. I'm sure subscribers are aware that learning a musical instrument will benefit learning in other areas. Why delay the benefits?

I was 8 when I started the piano and have kept it up since.
For the oboe I was 13 when I started learning this instrument.

Piano - Age 8
Clarinet - Age 10

QUOTE (Decibel @ Apr 10 2005, 04:43 PM)

I have never taken a piano pupil younger than seven. Concentration is part of the reason but hand size is also important. Leg length can also be a problem when they start pedalling but there are devices on the market that get round this problem. There are always exceptional youngsters of course and its best to judge each prospective pupil on their merits.

I don't see hand size as a barrier. Any child I have seen can find a 5-finger position - and from there can gradually learn to turn thumb under then hand to extend range of notes they can cover. There is tons to be getting on with.

Pedalling can be put on hold with the very young for a couple of years, because initially I think there is plenty of work to do to get the hands playing separately and together to a good standard.