Why are most composers and performers male? Sure, there are a few female composers, like Clara Schumann and Nadia Boulanger, but there are tons more male composers. Is it true that women can't play as powerful as men do?

Also Fanny Mendelssohn.

Women didn't compose because up until very recently they were trapped in a society in which this would have been frowned upon. Plus, they were generally less educated and wouldn't have been taken seriously even if they were lucky enough to have proper training and opportunities.

There are more female composers in the 20th and 21st century, such as Judith Weir, Diana Burrell, Sofia Gubaildina (sp?), Rebecca Clarke, Elizabeth Maconchy, Grace Williams to name a few.

Also, in her time, Clara Schumann was a celebrated virtuoso pianist, as was Mozart's sister Nannerl.

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 10 2005, 03:20 PM)

Is it true that women can't play as powerful as men do?

no it is not!!!!!!!!! lol

Most of the musical people in my school are girls

and what about Vanessa Mae? (sp?)

And what about me? I'm a female composer. Not a brilliant one, but still.

Yes, in my school most of the flautists are girls, but there are many successful professional male performers e.g James Galway. I feel that women get less recognition than men, though in many cases they are just as good

QUOTE

Is it true that women can't play as powerful as men do?

In a lot of cases you'll find there's more difference within a gender than between them. I'd say in general that where brute strength is required, blokes have a slight edge, but women may take the lead with stamina and endurance - for a difficult concert piece probably evens out.

The flyers I get from Barbican for their concerts seem to have a good ratio of female to male soloists. Hannah's point is very relevant - the answer is to do with society not innate skill. 100 years ago you would not have had female leaders in politics, industry, the sciences OR the arts. We've a way to go yet but in 50 years time I'd really hope that it becomes so normal for women to be composers, star soloists etc, that such a question seems like an odd one!

This same question came up in the Daily Express many years ago.Although I cut it out,it may have been mislaid somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

QUOTE

Yes, in my school most of the flautists are girls

All the flautists in my school were girls. Although, I did go to an all-girls school which might have had something to with it....

QUOTE

but there are many successful professional male performers e.g James Galway. I feel that women get less recognition than men, though in many cases they are just as good

Atarah Ben Tovim actually beat James Galway to the position of principal flute with the (i think) London Philharmonic orchestra.

it is because females have not had equal oppartuniteis until the suffreagettes

One of the main reasons is that to become a successful female performer in particular, you would have to be incredibly committed to your job meaning that there would be no time to settle down and have a family. Most successful performers are male simply because they can leave the wife at home with the kids while they work across the country.
If you take the musicians who were lucky enough to accompany Robbie Williams when he did his 'swing when you're winning' concert at the royal albert hall, there are maybe 3 females in an orchestra of 20-30. I have seen a few decent female musicians, such as the girl in Jools Holland's rhythm and blues orchestra who is an excellent saxophonist. I really don't think it is a question of "who is better", its a case of "who wants to dedicate themselves that much?".

QUOTE (country_bumpkin @ Apr 10 2005, 06:14 PM)

One of the main reasons is that to become a successful female performer in particular, you would have to be incredibly committed to your job meaning that there would be no time to settle down and have a family. Most successful performers are male simply because they can leave the wife at home with the kids while they work across the country. I really don't think it is a question of "who is better", its a case of "who wants to dedicate themselves that much?".

But there are those stay at home dads? And some women don't have any children or remain unmarried. I don't think this is the reason.

Are you saying women are not as dedicated as men?

QUOTE (contick1234 @ Apr 10 2005, 06:03 PM)

it is because females have not had equal oppartuniteis until the suffreagettes

Women were given the vote on the IOM in the 19th century.

I cant say I really agree with the whole 'women stay at home and not have professional music career' theory, but I would say that it seems on the whole, there are more ambitious men than there are ambitious women. (for whatever reason). And I wouldnt agree that either sex is more dedicated to what they're doing than the other.

Its not just music. Check out most boardrooms

Jane

Glass ceilings again...

Basically, women can't win. We're made to feel guilty if we stay at home and have families, made to feel guilty if we put career before family, made to feel guilty if we try both yet put one before the other (sorry children, mummy has an important meeting to prepare for so can't play; sorry my presentation isn't complete, my child was ill) - you get the picture.

Yes things are changing. There ARE stay-at-home dads, but they're in a very small minority. Look at the number of baby-changing rooms that are still attached to the ladies' toilets rather than being free-standing. Slowly but surely things are improving. Come the revolution things will be different though...

But, well, we see a lot of little girls learning to play piano, but most concert performers are male, even now. Don't believe me? Who are the famous performers now? Lang Lang? Maksim? They're all men. And most of the finalists in music competitions are men. There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male. Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents?

One more question: is it true that female teachers are more careful in little details, while men emphasize in the overall interpretation and feeling?

QUOTE

Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents?

OK, soap box at the ready...................Speaking as a musician, a single woman, no partner, has no children and has to depend entirely on her own income to keep herself financially afloat in life, I would disagree that men are more competitive. Where would I be if I wasn't competitive?? ......living in a cardboard box on a railway station, or filling shelves in Tesco? (no disrespects to either members of society is intended), but everyone of us who wants a career these days HAS to be competitive - it's just that men don't like their toes being trodden on by women. It dents their ego too much.

Women are equally competitive, it's just that male chauvenists gang up and oppress any female opposition and see that we don't succeed for one reason or another. There is still a lot of discrimination against women being successful, and for that reason successful women don't always receive the media attention or credit they deserve. If a man makes a big achievement in something, then it's splashed all over the headlines, published in every history book and rammed down our throats for enternity, but if it's a woman, then the story soon fades into the background.

Take Helen McArthur for instance. Are you saying women cannot have the same mental or physical strength than men ?? when she managed to sail around the world single handedly and break the record at the same time!! It was all over the news for a while but it will quickly be consigned to the archives because men don't particularly like women beating them at their own game.

If you do a Google search for 'The Ambache', you will find there is an all-female orchestra who regularly perform works by 19th century female composers...and there are a lot more female composers from that era than you think, it's just that men didn't want to recognise the skill women had.

If men want to continue burying their heads in the sand and pretend that women will go away and just be satisfied with whatever they get handed in life, then they're gonna' be in for a big shock one day............

Deborah and AmandaL

We could talk for ages on this subject. I agree! And wasn't it why the medical profession created the myth of witches because of the link with midwives?

DGA - Although you are only 13 years old,you are showing signs of....conditioned? I would like to describe what I mean with three others words,or more like three abbreviations...

"There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male. Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents?"

Codswallop...no offence of course!

Just going back to the original topic and away form the womens rights movements.... (!)

Perhaps the balance is changing. I've been to some recent music festivals.
In the Basingstoke music festival, there was only 1 boy I can recall from say 20 girls in the recorder categories I attended. On strings, there were no boys performing when I was there.
At the Abingdon Music festival this weekend, there were 17 girls to 11 boys in the older piano classes, in junior piano 17 girls and 4 boys, and in strings there were 14 girls and 1 boy (the boy won incidently!), in wind there were 24 girls and 7 boys.
In the church music group I help run, there are only 2 boys (percussion), the remaining 20+ kids are girls.
It could be that all the boys are practising at home and not playing at these events or in public, but I suspect that nowadays more girls are taking music seriously than boys.

QUOTE (indy_epx @ Apr 11 2005, 11:39 PM)

Just going back to the original topic and away form the womens rights movements.... (!) Perhaps the balance is changing. I've been to some recent music festivals. In the Basingstoke music festival, there was only 1 boy I can recall from say 20 girls in the recorder categories I attended. On strings, there were no boys performing when I was there. At the Abingdon Music festival this weekend, there were 17 girls to 11 boys in the older piano classes, in junior piano 17 girls and 4 boys, and in strings there were 14 girls and 1 boy (the boy won incidently!), in wind there were 24 girls and 7 boys. In the church music group I help run, there are only 2 boys (percussion), the remaining 20+ kids are girls. It could be that all the boys are practising at home and not playing at these events or in public, but I suspect that nowadays more girls are taking music seriously than boys.

You are right, but more girls playing piano doesn't mean that they play better.

QUOTE

You are right, but more girls playing piano doesn't mean that they play better.

Careful Alvin, you're treading on thin ice with implications like that.....

I will give another example of just how much more determined women are than they are given credit for.

The LSO. One of the foremost orchestras in the UK, and in the world. Their recordings and live performances give rise to critical acclaim, but, while they work as a team, many of them also have solo or semi-solo/chamber careers in their own right. The orchestra is now roughly a 50/50 split male/female ratio. The LSO only take on THE best. If you can do the job you're in, if not, forget it, regardless of your sex. They have recently had a guest leader, a woman, and she is an incredibly talented violinist. To lead a professional orchestra of any kind is a huge personal achievement, but to lead a top orchestra such as the LSO needs an enormous amount of talent, plus a personality that demands respect from all other members of the orchestra.

There is every chance this person might get a permanent contract with the orchestra. She is 30 years old, single and as ambitious about her future as any male musician might be. She comes from Switzerland and obtained a place to study at the Menuhin School as a child - so she certainly didn't have her parents encouraging her every day. Not all women succeed just because their parents encourage them - that's a very outdated view. Ambition has to come from within yourself, it has to be personal desire to succeed otherwise as soon as someone stops kicking you, you'll down tools and stop working.

There are far more unambitious men in this world than there are women. Look at the crime statistics for a start...... Men have attitude and often don't take kindly to guidance or advice, whereas women are more open to others views and suggestions on a different way of approaching things.

stop generalising... it's not that men are more ambitious, or that women are... each individual has his or her own personality and gender won't change that. someone's nurture will however change the way they see the world, which does mean that women are often oppressed or that men see themselves as more powerful or important or whatever... it's not only the case in music, but although we are in a time of change, it's clear that at the moment men are dominating at the top.

There do seem to be a few intellectual measures on which average values in men and women differ (not all the same way), but many of the apparent imbalances are a result of the much greater variability of men. One reason for this seems to be that the Y chromosome is rather small, so that for many genes a man has to rely on a single copy on his one X chromosome, whereas a woman has two copies, one on each of her two X chromosomes, and defects in one will usually be compensated by satisfactory function of the other. This is correlated with higher mortality rates among men, but in this context, the main observable is a larger proportion among men of outstanding talents, balanced by a larger proportion of inferior ones.

Social attitudes play a huge part. It's only in the last sixty years, since women proved they could do "men's work" during World War Two, that attitudes have changed in such a way that women have been accepted as the equal of men. An increasingly large percentage of top professional musicians are now women - Martha Argerich, Tasmin Little, Kyung Wha Chung, Sarah Chang, Emma Johnson, Marin Alsop and Jane Glover among them.

Most of the music featured in concert halls dates from before this change, however, so few women composers are represented in concert programmes for the simple reason that they didn't have the opportunity to compose. Mendelssohn's father made it clear to his daughter Fanny that he only wanted one composer in the family - her brother Felix. Clara Schumann sacrificed her composing career to promote her husband's music. And when Mahler married his wife Alma he made her give up composition and burnt the manuscripts of most of her songs!

QUOTE (woodwind @ Apr 11 2005, 07:09 PM)

It's only in the last sixty years, since women proved they could do "men's work" during World War Two, Mendelssohn's father made it clear to his daughter Fanny that he only wanted one composer in the family - her brother Felix. Clara Schumann sacrificed her composing career to promote her husband's music. And when Mahler married his wife Alma he made her give up composition and burnt the manuscripts of most of her songs!

Don't you mean WW1?

And an old lady I know who has recently died had to give up her career as a geologist with BP because she got married.

Regarding Alma : Is this why she had so many affairs? And Brahms was in love with Clara.

Goodness me...the twists and turns in human relationships.

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 11:08 PM)

QUOTE (woodwind @ Apr 11 2005, 07:09 PM) It's only in the last sixty years, since women proved they could do "men's work" during World War Two, Mendelssohn's father made it clear to his daughter Fanny that he only wanted one composer in the family - her brother Felix. Clara Schumann sacrificed her composing career to promote her husband's music. And when Mahler married his wife Alma he made her give up composition and burnt the manuscripts of most of her songs! Don't you mean WW1? And an old lady I know who has recently died had to give up her career as a geologist with BP because she got married.

Women won the right to vote as a result of their work during WW1 but equality was still a long way off. Although men were allowed to vote at 21 in 1918, women couldn't vote until they were 30. That didn't change until 1930. Women in many professions, including teaching, were still expected to resign if they got married and many jobs were effectively closed to women.

No, I'd say it was WW2, when women served in the armed forces, that established the basis of gender equality. An end to discrimination in terms of lower pay for women was still far in the future, though, and many would say we chaps still get the better deal!

One successful female jazz sax player I can think of - Barbara Thompson - no kids. Billie Holiday - no kids. In the jazz world it's generally the childless women who do really well. Or they have to plam their kids off, and most mothers just don't want to do that.

In the rock world - who was that woman singer who left her children behind for months to go touring; in the end her husband got custody of them...

In bygone centuries it just wasn't possible for women to make a real go of it in music; think of literature and how George Sand had to pretend to be a man to get published...

Violinia

QUOTE (woodwind @ Apr 11 2005, 10:30 PM)

[/QUOTE] Women won the right to vote as a result of their work during WW1 but equality was still a long way off. Although men were allowed to vote at 21 in 1918, women couldn't vote until they were 30. That didn't change until 1930. Women in many professions, including teaching, were still expected to resign if they got married and many jobs were effectively closed to women. No, I'd say it was WW2, when women served in the armed forces, that established the basis of gender equality. An end to discrimination in terms of lower pay for women was still far in the future, though, and many would say we chaps still get the better deal!

Point taken,but like I said women had the vote on the IOM...Isle of Man in the 19th century...somewhere around 1880 without doing a google search. I've studied all this in the past,but memory is now a bit hazy.

Yes I knew women had to wait until they were 30 and then I think it was designed for those women in the middle classes..The Pankhurst trio mainly fought for these sort of women,not the working class.So we are still into a certain sort of discrimination with female against female here.

The old lady I knew actually earned more than her husband when she was told to resign to marry him. She was even more special as geology is a scentific subject....she was born in 1918. (As an aside...my late Aunt also watched the last public execution in France...) And I have taught another very mature lady in years music who was in the medical profession and lectured too.

But I stress these ladies were all middle class...

As for lower pay...yep...chaps still get the best deal,both in the fat cat jobs AND pay.

I will do a google search later on the two WW to clarify other point. I'm nearly 100% sure the reason women...30 or above at that time...got the vote was because of their contribution in WW1.

Violinia

Yes and Barbara Thompson is married to Jon Hiseman? Both played on Sir ALW "Variations".

For those of you who don't know,Sand was Chopin's lover. Virginia Woolf used an alias too. What about HG Wells lover? Rebecca West????

I study this in History. The government only gave the vote to women over 30 initially, as it was considered that women of this age would usually be married and vote according to what their husbands told them. Apparently women would not have the 'maturity' to vote until they reached this age. Younger women were considered irresponsible, partly due to the violent protests of the suffragettes.

QUOTE (Semele @ Apr 11 2005, 10:12 PM)

DGA - Although you are only 13 years old,you are showing signs of....conditioned? I would like to describe what I mean with three others words,or more like three abbreviations... "There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male. Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents?" Codswallop...no offence of course!

What do you mean by "conditioned"? Please answer as you read this. I am very curious...

I am sure that my statement isn't 100% rubbish. It's rather true. Take a look at the first part:

QUOTE

There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male.

Sure, that's right. I'm not saying women are ALWAYS worse pianists than men, but you can see that most concert pianists and teacher are men. Winner of competitions? Mostly men. Just see the history of a certain prestigious one, like the Tchaikovsky Competition or the Van Cliburn Competition. Almost all winners were men, even though some women did make it into the finals. From a list of famous piano teacher, a big portion are men.

Next part:

QUOTE

Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents?

Well, look at it this way: If you're a man, in order to become secure in society, you have to have a good job, a good reputation, etc. But a lot of women are quite OK if they don't reach destinies as high as men's, and they just feel fine if they don't get an excellent job, especially if they're already married and USUALLY the husband is the main source of income.

A single woman is different, she HAS to be competitive because of the something I said, which is she won't have an income if she doesn't do anything because she's alone.

Now another quote...

QUOTE

It could be that all the boys are practising at home and not playing at these events or in public, but I suspect that nowadays more girls are taking music seriously than boys.

Sure that's right, the boys like playing sports better, but a small portion of the boys who DO take it seriously can become great pianists.

My mom's piano students are half male and half female. She said that during her history of teaching, spanning about 15 years, most of her male students are quite succesful, I mean they can pass grades with merit, and so on, while not all the girls are like that (even though some are).

I'm not saying women are not as dedicated, thats a complete lie. And yes there are 'stay at home' dads which would prob help with the not being able to look after the kids thing but its also a relationship thing too really isnt it? I guess its kinda like having a partner in the army! hehe! Performers have to travel all over the place, possibly staying in different places for periods of time so in a way its similar. Anyway I was just saying the world of music is most definitely NOT biased about gender, woman have equal opportunities.

QUOTE

There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male.

I just have to point out that I've had 3 piano teachers: 2 male, and my current teacher is female. She is a MUCH better teacher than the 2 men. I'll admit that obviously some male teachers are better than some female teachers, but this isn't true of all male teachers.
For what it's worth, my opinion on concert pianists: even if most concert pianists are men, that doesn't mean they are the best pianists around;they are just the ones with the most press coverage.

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 12 2005, 10:34 AM)

What do you mean by "conditioned"? Please answer as you read this. I am very curious... I am sure that my statement isn't 100% rubbish. It's rather true. Take a look at the first part: QUOTE There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male. Sure, that's right. I'm not saying women are ALWAYS worse pianists than men, but you can see that most concert pianists and teacher are men. Winner of competitions? Mostly men. Just see the history of a certain prestigious one, like the Tchaikovsky Competition or the Van Cliburn Competition. Almost all winners were men, even though some women did make it into the finals. From a list of famous piano teacher, a big portion are men. Next part: QUOTE Is it true that most men have the urge inside themselves to compete, and ALWAYS want to be the best, while women are more easily satisfied, and they are usually sucessful because somebody or something encouraged them, like their parents? Well, look at it this way: If you're a man, in order to become secure in society, you have to have a good job, a good reputation, etc. But a lot of women are quite OK if they don't reach destinies as high as men's, and they just feel fine if they don't get an excellent job, especially if they're already married and USUALLY the husband is the main source of income. A single woman is different, she HAS to be competitive because of the something I said, which is she won't have an income if she doesn't do anything because she's alone. Now another quote... QUOTE It could be that all the boys are practising at home and not playing at these events or in public, but I suspect that nowadays more girls are taking music seriously than boys. Sure that's right, the boys like playing sports better, but a small portion of the boys who DO take it seriously can become great pianists. My mom's piano students are half male and half female. She said that during her history of teaching, spanning about 15 years, most of her male students are quite succesful, I mean they can pass grades with merit, and so on, while not all the girls are like that (even though some are).

DGA

Sorry for not replying earlier. I cannot reply to your first question because if you were older you would know what I meant.

Second reply:Where's your evidence to back this up?

I'm now confused as I think you are quoting other members here. But...

"A single woman is different, she HAS to be competitive because of the something I said, which is she won't have an income if she doesn't do anything because she's alone."

A single woman with kids has to be even more competitive,but do you have the knowledge to comprehend what I'm saying?

With respect,and no offence intended,you are picking up generalisations you have heard from,I reckon,adults,who have some comprehension although quite one-sided.Male,I suspect.

As for stay at home dads and the rest of this topic,I'm bowing out.I suspect,like a few mature adults here,they will know why. This applies to the govt giving votes to women over 30 that had usually be forced to give their property over to their husbands on marriage.

More google searches needed...

Women do not have equal rights...please note the present tense.

QUOTE

There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male.

This is not only rubbish, it's offensive rubbish.

Sorry DGA, Semele is right - when you are older you will know that broad generalisations of this kind are rarely true.

Maggie

Who won the BBC Young Musician of the Year? The violinist, Nicola Benedetti. And for years Iona Browm led, and later directed, the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields. Then there's Mitsuko Uchido, Joanna McGregor, Helene Grimaud,
Elizabeth Leonskaya.
And, before them, Clara Haskill, Myra Hess, Tatyana Nikolayeva..I could go on.
And as for women being uncompetitive !!*%$ Have you heard of Kelly Holmes? Paula Radcliffe? Venus and Serena Williams? The other countless dedicated women gymnasts, dancers, whatever..

Nadia Boulanger was one of the most renowned and gifted teachers ever. To say that women teachers are less gifted than men isn't just wrong, it's offensive, however old you are. This is why anti discriminaton laws were introduced. But of course it will take more than a few laws to stop some males thinking in a chauvinistic ,misogynistic and thoroughly outmoded way. It's just faintly alarming and disturbing to see these attitudes so firmly entrenched in a 13 year old. Can I hazard a guess that DGA isn't from the UK?

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Apr 13 2005, 08:14 AM)

QUOTE There are more female piano teachers than men, but the best ones are male. This is not only rubbish, it's offensive rubbish. Sorry DGA, Semele is right - when you are older you will know that broad generalisations of this kind are rarely true. Maggie

Thankyou Maggie and all the other nice ladies here!

OK, I know I am much younger, and I should respect you, or whatever.

But I didn't get that statement from a male. It was my mother's statement. Along with my dad, she's a premarital consultant at my church. They study the mental differences between men and women. She was actually lecturing me when she said that: "DGA, you'll become a man, so you have to have a secure job and career. Every man needs those things: a high position and an income, so they don't depend on anything. They like to compete in everything. But many women are quite fine enough without those things. They emphasize on relations rather than individual success, ...."
Sort of like that. And remember, the church doesn't make them say that. It has nothing to do with religion aspects.

I don't feel OK here, fighting a bunch of ladies. We boys have much more to do now....but no offence.

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 13 2005, 01:22 PM)

I don't feel OK here, fighting a bunch of ladies. We boys have much more to do now....but no offence.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No offence (as you said) but you are the most chauvenistic and misogynistic 13 year old ever. Even if you are not from the UK and there are cultural differences coming into play.

My female piano teacher is the best teacher I have ever had, not to mention a brilliantly talented professional musician.

QUOTE

And as for women being uncompetitive !!*%$ Have you heard of Kelly Holmes? Paula Radcliffe? Venus and Serena Williams? The other countless dedicated women gymnasts, dancers, whatever..

(Helen_VJ)
Also, Erin Boag, Camilla Dalerup (these will be familiar to British forum users ), Kelly Kainz, my dancing teacher, Anna Pavlova, Darcy Bussel to name but a few.

QUOTE

But a lot of women are quite OK if they don't reach destinies as high as men's

(DGA)
Nicola Horlick? (Famous balancing a career and family and made a fortune on the stock markets)
Martha Lane Fox (founded Lastminute.com, a highly successful website)
Anita Roddick ( founded the Body Shop)
Olave Baden Powell (founded brownies, guides etc)
Ellen Mc Arthur (round the world yaughtswomen)
Helen Sharman (astronaught, metaphorically speaking, you can not possibly say she has not been in high places)
Barbara Castle (intorduced breathaliser tests)
Maggie Thatcher (first female prime minister)
Marie Curie (Nobel prize winning scientist)
Madonna (surely no description needed?)
Lesley Garrett (opera singer)
Halle Berry (first back woman to win oscar for best actress)
Ann Bancroft (the first woman to travel over ice to the north and south poles)
Stella Rimington (first female head of MI5 {the british inteligence service} )
Mary Quant (designed the mini skirt)
Coco Chanel (designed the little back dress)
Stella Mc Cartney (refused to use leather and fur in her designs)
Enid Blyton (wrote hundreds of childrens book)
JK Rowling (created Harry Potter)
Jane Goodall (conservation of chimpanzees)
Dian Fossey (conservation of gorillas)
Tanni Grey-Thompson (paralympic champion and tv presenter)

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 13 2005, 12:22 PM)

...so you have to have a secure job and career. Every man needs those things: a high position and an income, so they don't depend on anything. They like to compete in everything. But many women are quite fine enough without those things. They emphasize on relations rather than individual success, ...."

Hmmm... that's a broad generalisation if ever I heard one.

DGA, you are only 13 and its right that you should listen to and respect your parents, but please as you grow older try and keep an open mind, and remember that all people are individuals with very differing needs and drivers regardless of what gender (or race, or religious persuasion, or age, or whatever) they are.

You just can't pigeonhole people into slots.

Sorry we seem to be all getting on at you

Jane

Why should the men get the better paid jobs when in GCSEs (English exams), girls perform better in every subject compared to boys and outperform them throughout their education? I could go on about discrimination for a while since it is my Sociology coursework, but basically men are at the top, and women are prejudiced, and have the glass ceiling to contend with; they can see the top jobs but can't get to them because they are seen as 2nd best to men!

I'm always inclined to think that for as long as women feel a need to 'fight' for 'our rights' we're always going to be behind! I don't worry about it overly, I just can be pretty confident of the fact that any male who tries to tell me he's better than me for a reason other than one I can find justifiable, is probably liable to find himself very embaressed a few minutes later...

I won't enlarge on that further!

Though suffice to say, not many try! It must come down to personality!

OK, OK, enough of this.

I admit that the female side isn't too bad, after all. My former piano teacher in Canada, was female and one of the best around. And my mother is, too.

QUOTE

No offence (as you said) but you are the most chauvenistic and misogynistic 13 year old ever. Even if you are not from the UK and there are cultural differences coming into play.

Chauvenistic? Well, maybe a little bit, but the reason why I still don't believe that women are the best is because we have so little female composers and musicians during the Baroque to late Romantic periode, which is the music we often play the most, so it seems that women can't do as good as men. But for one thing, I'm not trying to say that men are the best in everything.

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Nicola Horlick? (Famous balancing a career and family and made a fortune on the stock markets) Martha Lane Fox (founded Lastminute.com, a highly successful website) Anita Roddick ( founded the Body Shop) Olave Baden Powell (founded brownies, guides etc) Ellen Mc Arthur (round the world yaughtswomen) Helen Sharman (astronaught, metaphorically speaking, you can not possibly say she has not been in high places) Barbara Castle (intorduced breathaliser tests) Maggie Thatcher (first female prime minister) Marie Curie (Nobel prize winning scientist) Madonna (surely no description needed?) Lesley Garrett (opera singer) Halle Berry (first back woman to win oscar for best actress) Ann Bancroft (the first woman to travel over ice to the north and south poles) Stella Rimington (first female head of MI5 {the british inteligence service} ) Mary Quant (designed the mini skirt) Coco Chanel (designed the little back dress) Stella Mc Cartney (refused to use leather and fur in her designs) Enid Blyton (wrote hundreds of childrens book) JK Rowling (created Harry Potter) Jane Goodall (conservation of chimpanzees) Dian Fossey (conservation of gorillas) Tanni Grey-Thompson (paralympic champion and tv presenter)

Sure, those are good examples, but there's still more men in a lot of the subjects you said. I think it's maybe because of the little discrimination, but well...I could list many more successful men I've heard or read of. Like, the first female prime minister: we still have more men in that position.
Successful stockbrokers: men still dominate that position.
Nobel prize winner(s): still, most are men, even though great women have won the prizes more in categories such as the Nobel peace prize
Designers of dresses, etc: those are women's stuff!
There's no intention of underestimating women here, but I guess more women should get in higher positions than men. Maybe because the discriminating stuff has just been deleted recently.

DGA you seem to be completely ignoring the historical explanations as to why men have been more prolific at composers.

Until very recently (the advent of contraception), the vast majority of women in the Western world married early and spent the next 2 to 3 decades absorbed in arduous chores and childcare. Women who wanted to do anything else would have to remain celibate in order not to produce large numbers of children, and even then would find obstacles at every turn.

I don't suppose you know, for example, that in the UK when we used to have an exam at age 11 to decide what type of school you went to, and there were only enough places at the grammar schools (the better schools) for 20%, they actually massaged the results to keep up the numbers of boys getting into the grammar schools because frankly the girls did better.

Please do some research before you make pronouncements about boys being cleverer in some way than girls, because it just isn't true.

Men have traditionally held more power than women because of the biological fact of women needing to be more involved in childcare than men.

Attitudes take a long time to change, and I hope that when you reach marriageable age you consider the fact that the amount you contribute to childcare and domestic chores will directly affect the amount your wife will be able to operate in the outside world. Unless you buy in outside help, or unless your wife is just happy to be a wife and mother and not much else, which she may regret once the children have grown up and fled the nest.

Anyway, you're only 13, but you already seem to hold some rather bigoted ideas. Time to wake up, DGA!

Violinia

PS Talking of female prime ministers, Margaret Thatcher had two children but had married a millionaire so could buy in all the help she needed, in order to free up her time for politics. How many other female contenders have those kind of privileges, I wonder?

OK, so women are really as good as men???
There's surely some difference between men and women. Men are usually better in math and physics (even though many women are also successful in these categories) and women are much better in stuff like grammar (that's what you said) and I think that women are much better memorisers.

You can't say that women and men are just physically different! There ARE some mental differences.

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Men are usually better in math and physics (even though many women are also successful in these categories)

Ahem!!! yes, apart from my music qualifications I happen to have a BSc in Physics as well from University College London, too. I'm now considering studying part-time for a Bachelor of Laws degree as well.

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and women are much better in stuff like grammar (that's what you said) and I think that women are much better memorisers.

No good foreign langauges or anything like that - not very interested to be honest - but I can memorise a whole sonata or concerto in a week if I have to!!

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You can't say that women and men are just physically different! There ARE some mental differences.

Yes, we are usually more open minded for a start. Too many boys (including yourself by the sounds of things) are still being told by their parents that men are best and women are below them. This view has been held amongst one particular religious group (who shall remain nameless) to such an extent that women are barely aloud out on their own let alone able to make their own decisions. They also allow the taking of four wives!!!! Now that just smacks of male orientated ideas, not purely religious ones .

Unfortunately similar views on women are often regarded highly by other religious communities, and through experience I have found many men from this background are often bigoted and chauvinistic in their attitudes. They are conditioned by their upbringing and general parental nuture, rather than through fault of their own, but this is just the type of attitude that will leave women having to feel the need to fight and prove otherwise.

There is the view of course is that men are actually frightened of women, and that's why we've been kept down. We have an immense amount of psychological power over men, and when it somes to the crunch what man actually thinks with his brain? There's usually another piece of his anatomy that's leading his head, rather than the other way round. So yes, men are mentally different in that way because their very biological nature makes them also see women as breeding machines.

We are not breeding machines, we are not inferior, it's just that men want to keep thinking we are otherwise their egos get flattened.

DGA, if you study ancient civilisations (Egypt, Rome, Greece to name but a few) you will find that in their societies women were actually the ones with higher status and powers, both socially and in work. They were educated and held good positions. Roman women could even divorce their husbands simply by telling them that they no longer wished to remain married!! Sorry to say this, but it is really only since Christianity and similar religions were formed that the oppression of women has really taken place.

Makes you wonder doesn't it.................

Subatomic Star (another Helen, I think?) - that was a great list of women who weren't content to hang around in the kitchen, tending to their men folk. And I loved the Hesse quote in your signature.

While we're on the subject, has anyone else noticed the inherent egocentricity and arrogance in DGA's signature? There's nothing wrong with ambition; but why not aim to write great music, rather than to be 'The greatest composer and performer of all time' ? !! I think all the truly great performers ( such as Menuhin, to take a random MALE example) and composers possessed a considerable degree of humility. Also I'm wondering how this supreme arrogance sits with DGA's religious beliefs? Didn't Christ say 'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth'? I don't think Christ ever said he was the greatest prophet ever, did he?

Wel, perhaps we shouild be kinder to DGA, as he's a bloke, after all (See, we can do sweeping generalisations too!)

Nice one Helen.

Yes, a great list from (other) Helen. Maybe since we're partly discussing music we could add Angela Hewitt?

I had wondered about the humility thing too, and then thought that perhaps that is construed as applying only to women

To the signature question, yes, many times, and not just since the start of this thread.

Maggie

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OK, so women are really as good as men???

yes.

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You can't say that women and men are just physically different! There ARE some mental differences.

in my opinion, there are mental differences between people not between men & women. I don't think we should split the human race in half and assume that 1 half is better at certain things than others, because it just isn't true. We're all humans, and all have different strengths and weaknesses, therefore any generalisations are bound to be wrong.

Also, in the old religions of this country, before Christianity, a Goddess was worshiped as well as a God, and in some traditions (ie the Dianic tradition) the role of the Goddess is far more important than the God, whereas in others they were 2 parts of the 1 deity (much like the 3 parts of the christian god- father, son, holy spirit). Theres a theory that when Christianity 'took over', they surpressed the Goddess, and just continued worshipping the God. Now, to me, this is like the surpression of women in our culture. Whereas once, men & women were equal, women were supressed & made to feel inferior, which is very untrue, and I personally hope that one day, preferably soon, everyone will be able to see that.

My mum always said she didn't want equality with men as this would be a come down.. considering that women are already superior...