Hello everyone!

Does anyone else have this problem? Usually, when attempting to compose, I have a lovely tune in my head that unfortunately only lasts for 4-8 bars and then I'm stuck because I don't seem to be able to expand on it without making the next bit sound totally unrelated! I have a whole pile of compositions that I've started but can't seem to get further with...

Any comments, ideas etc.?
Thanks,
Charlotte

QUOTE (july @ Apr 11 2005, 04:32 PM)

Does anyone else have this problem? Usually, when attempting to compose, I have a lovely tune in my head that unfortunately only lasts for 4-8 bars and then I'm stuck because I don't seem to be able to expand on it without making the next bit sound totally unrelated! I have a whole pile of compositions that I've started but can't seem to get further with...

How much musical analysis have you done? If you know how other composers put things together, you can use the same structures as they do to produce larger compositions. This applies at many time scales.

"Next bits" are usually contrasting in some sense ("A good composer never does the same thing three times"). One of the things that often happens in a larger composition is that a "development" section shows how they can be made to relate sympathetically with the earlier material.

OTOH, some composers juxtapose contrasting material with no attempt to show a relationship. I am listening right now to a movement from the Janacek "Sinfonietta", which is full of such surprises.

Look at a variety of examples of the genres in which you are working (which you haven't told us).

I'm the other way round; I can't think of anything for ages, and then one day I'll think of something, and be able to basically finish it, but I get stuck a few times!

QUOTE (kenm @ Apr 11 2005, 06:01 PM)

Look at a variety of examples of the genres in which you are working (which you haven't told us).

Thank you for your replies, kenm and elmo!

To Kenm: The problem is, I haven't really done much musical analysis so I'll have to do some extensive research I think, so that I can see how the professionals do it , as you suggested (<-- sorry, v. convoluted sentence!). To the genre question, what exactly do you mean? At the moment I've started composing a piece for my barbershop quartet (1st soprano, 2nd soprano, 1st alto, 2nd alto) but as I haven't had much experience I tend to go by 'what sounds nice'! The contrasting would be an idea, but I still think my A section should be longer than 8 bars - oh dear!

I have the same problem as you and I have to do composing for my GCSEs. I usually base mine on scales and arpeggios, just adding different rhythms and a few other notes and little tunes I've thought of in between!!

Oh, that's a good idea - thanks!

QUOTE (july @ Apr 11 2005, 06:25 PM)

To Kenm: The problem is, I haven't really done much musical analysis so I'll have to do some extensive research I think, so that I can see how the professionals do it , as you suggested (<-- sorry, v. convoluted sentence!). To the genre question, what exactly do you mean? At the moment I've started composing a piece for my barbershop quartet

That's exactly what I mean. If you want to write for instruments, you will need to learn their characteristics.

QUOTE

(1st soprano, 2nd soprano, 1st alto, 2nd alto) but as I haven't had much experience I tend to go by 'what sounds nice'! The contrasting would be an idea, but I still think my A section should be longer than 8 bars - oh dear!

I would recommend that you do one or both of the following:

1) See whether you can work out how people write long tunes. Possibly the best period to study would be the popular music of the first half of the 20th century, when well trained composers made their livings on Broadway and "Tin-Pan-Alley", from stage musicals, selling sheet music, records, from about 1920, and sound films, from 1929. Many of the long tunes of the successful composers of the time (Gershwin, Kern, Berlin, Porter, McHugh, Youmans, Arlen, ...) are constructed from short phrases that are strung together with small variations, with a contrasting phrase intervening. One of my favourite tunes, "Let the people sing"[1], has a structure A1, A2, A3, A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, A1, A2, A4, A5. All the As are recognisably similar, as are both the Bs. A1 and A2 are 5-note phrases (ccccs), A3, A4 and A5 are 7-note phrases (ccccmmsS) and B1 and B2 are 8-note phrases (ccccmmmmS), where c = crotchet, m = minim, s = semibreve[2] and capitals indicate rests. The tempo is about 112 minims to the minute.

2) Learn species counterpoint. This is particularly appropriate for vocal writing, as several of its rules are intended to ensure that parts are easy to sing. Barbershop music does not usually adhere strictly to it, but you need to look at actual barbershop examples to see where you can bend the rules. In particular, it will modulate (i.e. use accidentals to move into other keys) and return to its home key.

[1] Noel Gay, from a 1940 revue called "Lights Up". You can hear a bit of it here. The fragment starts at A3.
[2] I am writing this from memory, so I may have doubled all these values.

QUOTE

Does anyone else have this problem? Usually, when attempting to compose, I have a lovely tune in my head that unfortunately only lasts for 4-8 bars and then I'm stuck because I don't seem to be able to expand on it without making the next bit sound totally unrelated!  I have a whole pile of compositions that I've started but can't seem to get further with...

Very common problem. I always had the same problem when thinking of witty things to say, important letters, essays etc. While walking along, I have fantastic ideas, tunes, things i want to say to the boss at work etc, but as soon as I sit down and start typing, my mind goes blank.

For written stuff, I now try and carry post-its and a pen whenever I can.

If your melodies really are worth pursuing, why don't you invest in a cheap dictaphone or any recording device that you can carry round with you? They're pretty tiny these days. Then you can sing/whistle/hum your composition and save it for later.

Well, just a thought.

Steve

Same problem here! I usually best at making variations!

I had the same problem too, but it was a bit different: I heard a nice tune in my head, I can compose in the bathroom (or improvise I guess, because the melodies were similar to the works I had heard before) without any instrument, but when it comes to write it down, I just can't find the right notes. And I can't continue, even if I did find the melody.

It lasted for a few months, even until now...I have two manuscript books, and only 20% of them is pure composition! The rest are crossed-out bars...because I couldn't find what I could continue with. But once I could complete a simple 3-page piano composition, which I forgot for a year until now. I've never tried it, but then I tried to compose a G major sonata. I love to study theory and music forms, so I know quite a lot about it. At first I could make the first few bars, but then I found it sounded rather too stupid...and I couldn't continue nicely. The next few bars after the main theme seemed like they were forced to be made, instead of a bridge or something to another theme. That went to the trash, too. Now I'm composing a sonata in E minor, and it's going on fine, even though I just crossed out the 10 bars after the first theme two days ago. It sounds very Beethoven or Grieg-like, but at least it doesn't sound stupid.

I guess you should keep trying to compose, practicing...Dvorak did that when he was young, I read, and he destroyed every composition he attempted just after he made it!!

QUOTE (DGA @ Apr 13 2005, 12:34 PM)

I guess you should keep trying to compose, practicing...Dvorak did that when he was young, I read, and he destroyed every composition he attempted just after he made it!!

Very true. Most of us have to try lots of things that don't work, or that we find unacceptable a few months later, before we start to write things that we want to keep. The good news is that eventually you get a higher proportion of things that work reasonably after some revision, and even, occasionally, things that work first time. Someone once said (of novel writing, IIRC), "Your best friend is the waste paper basket". Happily, the virtual sort are easier to empty.

Gosh, thanks for all your ideas! Kenm, thank you very much for the links!

And now it's on to practising/trying...I think I might even invest in a dictaphone! I've improvised on the flute whilst recording onto a tape and I found that that actually worked better, because everything seems to flow along nicely when you're just experimenting!
Cheers,
Charlotte

What you need is that nice free software, Audacity. You can import tracks, or just sing it and record it to your PC, and stack up tracks. Viohazard uses it a lot to make songs with various accompaniments - almost totally instinctive to use. It doesn't generate sheet music from what you sing (which some more sophisticated programs can do) but it certainly allows you to remember and experiment with an idea.

I use to have this problem before...
but my teacher taught me just to write 4 bars first then continue for 4 bars with is in the style of the opening.After you have eight bars, things become easy because you can always repeat passages, or vary them with imatations...canons....sequences....etc...etc. All the music technique will made your life much easier!!

PS. I think I am talented in composing and i love composing!! (my master works till now include 1 symphony,3 piano concertos,4 string quartets,3 trios,4 piano sonatas and violin sonatas,4 chorales, hand full of solo piano works,violin solos,flute solos and many many chamber music ensembles....etc.) Our school orchestra is playing one of my ensemble and concerto this year!!