Apologies if this has already been covered, but does anyone know about the horse hair used for bows? Is the hair taken while the horse is alive, and is any cruelty involved? (might seem a silly question but animals are killed for lesser reasons in some countries ) Thanks in advance for any information.

(Sorry if this doesnt warrant a whole thread, but I didn't want to hijack anyone else's)

From horse to bow

Thanks for that, that was really helpful.

Hmmm... this is interesting... I'm veggie but I never realised that horsehair came from horses that had been killed for meat....
Emma, feeling slightly guilty.

QUOTE

this is interesting... I'm veggie but I never realised that horsehair came from horses that had been killed for meat....

I'm not a veggie - in fact if anything my doctor has just advised me to eat more red meat to increase the iron in my blood! - but I absolutely adore horses. I owned one for 7 years but sadly he was put down by the people who took him on after me, because they eventually couldn't be bothered with him . Even worse, he was taken off to the abbatoir afterwards.

The thought of my horse being canned as dog food, his feet turned into glue and his tail having possibly ended up as bow hair makes me feel very sick

You'd think by now with modern technology and materials, they'd have found or made a good 'horse friendly' substitute for hairing bows.

QUOTE (Rainbow @ Apr 13 2005, 06:40 PM)

Hmmm... this is interesting... I'm veggie but I never realised that horsehair came from horses that had been killed for meat....

It's awful isnt it? Ive recently gone from veggie to vegan, so am being extra careful with anything that may have come from animals. Doesn't the varnish also have an animal originated product?

I may have to think again about which violin and bow to buy, and see if I can get a good synthetic one. (is there such a thing?)

QUOTE

Ive recently gone from veggie to vegan, so am being extra careful with anything that may have come from animals.

I'd love to do that too. I tried it for a while but my metabolism is SO fast I lose weight very rapidly and, as per my previous post, my iron levels drop dramatically - so much so I ended up having to see a doctor. I guess humans didn't originally evolve to live on veggie diets, but I say good luck to all those whose body can handle it.

QUOTE

Doesn't the varnish also have an animal originated product?

Not sure about the varnish, but the glue that holds the seams together is made of animal glue - a by-product of cattle, sheep and horse hooves Again, they've not found a synthetic substitute that will hold the instrument together and yet still allow it to be taken apart again without damage.

QUOTE

I may have to think again about which violin and bow to buy, and see if I can get a good synthetic one. (is there such a thing?)

Not much choice unfortunately. The really cheap student instruments are probably glued with synthetic stuff; but then it's unlikely anyone would want to take the instrument apart or repair it.

QUOTE (AmandaL @ Apr 14 2005, 11:10 PM)

I'd love to do that too. I tried it for a while but my metabolism is SO fast I lose weight very rapidly and, as per my previous post, my iron levels drop dramatically - so much so I ended up having to see a doctor. I guess humans didn't originally evolve to live on veggie diets, but I say good luck to all those whose body can handle it.

At the risk of being off topic, humans didnt originally evolve to eat meat. (hence the flat teeth and meat-related cholesterol problems that natural carnivores don't have.)
If you have iron problems and would rather not eat lots of meat, how about an iron supplement (or green leafy veg, and wholemeals). A good iron-rich diet can still lead to deficiency problems though if it is not being absorbed properly, so you should also get plenty of vitamin C to aid absorption.

*puts soapbox away*

That said, thank you for your comments on the glue. I was looking forward to getting a new violin from elidatrading when I had saved up my pennies. I guess I will have to explore the web, and see if there are any cruelty-free violins out there.



P.S. Liz, if you have any advice or info on this it would be very gratefully received. Thanks.

QUOTE (uberzoldat @ Apr 15 2005, 12:27 AM)

*puts soapbox away*

a soapbox

I hope it's made from renewable wood and cruelty free glue. Not to mention the soap......

QUOTE (zoda @ Apr 15 2005, 01:24 PM)

a soapbox I hope it's made from renewable wood and cruelty free glue. Not to mention the soap......

no its made from real soap (that isnt tested on animals)
Hence my tendency to slip off it sometimes.

Uberzoldat, some people think that it's as ethical to buy second hand things as to buy cruelty-free new things as it helps the environment (or at least, doesn't harm it). Plus second hand violins are often nicer!
Cat

Hi Catrin,

I have nothing against second hand, in fact I usually do buy things second hand but I had had my eye on rather a nice, new, violin. (the first one I will have bought myself).
I will not however buy an instrument that uses by-products from dead animals or slaughterhouses. If anyone has a second hand cruelty-free violin for sale, count me in!

QUOTE

no its made from real soap (that isnt tested on animals)

...and I hope that's soap made from vegetable oils rather than ANIMAL fats!!

Traditionally, soap was made from tallow - a fat derived from beef cattle. Most soaps still have some animal fats in them, but there are also plenty of vegetable based soaps around these days.

Basically, the oils/fats are mixed with sodium hydroxide. This solidifies the fats and turns it into the raw material for soap based products.

QUOTE

At the risk of being off topic, humans didnt originally evolve to eat meat. (hence the flat teeth and meat-related cholesterol problems that natural carnivores don't have.)

At the risk of having my head bitten off here (if one is in to cannibalism ),
we are actually omnivores - eat meat and vegetable based foods. If we were totally veggie we'd have teeth and stomachs like those of cattle and horses. Able to grind up plant matter and digest the fibre and cellulose in it. Cellulose and plant fibre is not something we can digest, hence why lots of fruit and vegetables create excellent gut function.

Our teeth? Well we also have incissors and canines at the front, which are specifically designed for biting into meat. I didn't invent this idea, it's just basic dentition knowledge.

The only real value we obtain from green and leafy vegetables is the vitamin and mineral content. To survive and hold body weight we also need carbohydrates and proteins. With a metabolism as fast as mine, I can eat and eat and eat, and eat whatever I want and still not put on weight. Sadly, on totally veggie diet I would waste away.

QUOTE

If you have iron problems and would rather not eat lots of meat, how about an iron supplement (or green leafy veg, and wholemeals).

The doc has put me on an iron supplement anyway, but she warned that it can cause constipation Dried apricots are apparently a good source of iron though - for those who can face chewing on dried fruits.

QUOTE

A good iron-rich diet can still lead to deficiency problems though if it is not being absorbed properly, so you should also get plenty of vitamin C to aid absorption.

If I take any more supplements, I'll rattle like a pair of maracas Having also suffered from stress related epigastric inflammation, I have to be careful to avoid acidic or spicy foods anyway as it can flare the problem up again very easily.

QUOTE (AmandaL @ Apr 17 2005, 11:22 AM)

Our teeth? Well we also have incissors and canines at the front, which are specifically designed for biting into meat. I didn't invent this idea, it's just basic dentition knowledge. The only real value we obtain from green and leafy vegetables is the vitamin and mineral content. To survive and hold body weight we also need carbohydrates and proteins. With a metabolism as fast as mine, I can eat and eat and eat, and eat whatever I want and still not put on weight. Sadly, on totally veggie diet I would waste away.

Thanks for the info about the soap, there are several vegan alternatives available thankfully.

Our teeth do have canines and incisors at the front, for tearing (meat is not the only food that requires biting/tearing). We cannot, however eat raw meat and are unable to tear through it like other omni/carni animals do. We always have to have our meat cooked first as we are unable to digest raw meat.

The fact that veggies don't get enough carbohydrates and proteins is a common misconception unfortunately. I am not in anyway trying to persuade you/dissuade you into anything, and I respect that you would find nutrition a struggle to be veggie and your health may be at risk, but I would just like to clarify a few things if I may.

The only thing in meat that we don't get from plants is Vitamin B12, which is artificially put into animals by government regulations, (the animals themselves don't produce it). I take a supplement of this.

BTW, I hope your health improves, if you are still ill, AmandaL.

QUOTE

If I take any more supplements, I'll rattle like a pair of maracas

QUOTE

BTW, I hope your health improves, if you are still ill, AmandaL

Thanks uberzoldat. I feel somewhat like a guinea pig with all the different things the doctors have tried . Sadly, stomach problems never really go away - similar to people with irritable bowel syndrome I guess - they always have a nasty habit of flaring up when you least expect, usually when I'm pressed for time to myself and trying to fit too much into 24 hours.

I'm ok at the moment, but when it does give me problems, eating any food creates a pain which I'd imagine is akin to having bayonet stuck into your stomach just under the ribs

I do try to be as animal friendly as possible by purchasing products from local small-holdings and producers rather than from supermarkets, but the diet has to be given some balance.

While I think of it, don't buy anything made by or marketed by Procter & Gamble (they produce that awful Sunny Delight drink). The company refuse to stop testing on animals so I make sure I check the small print on any household products and things like that, before buying.

Thanks for the info.

I'm sorry your stomach is always upset. It's so frustrating when the doctors can't do anything. I try to check out companies I want to buy from, which isnt always possible sadly. I was shocked suprised and upset to learn that some charities use the money given to them for animal testing, and I'm sure the people who donate wouldnt like this if they knew.

Other places have got productive information and research from using human tissue samples. Why do they do it?

QUOTE

I was shocked suprised and upset to learn that some charities use the money given to them for animal testing, and I'm sure the people who donate wouldnt like this if they knew.

I no longer donate to Marie Curie Cancer Research, because they use animals in their work. You'd also be horrified at the amount of pet food companies who also use animals to research digestion and the effect certain diets have on muscular tissue

If human food companies did the same on people, there'd be a public outcry

QUOTE (AmandaL @ Apr 17 2005, 09:08 PM)

While I think of it, don't buy anything made by or marketed by Procter & Gamble (they produce that awful Sunny Delight drink). The company refuse to stop testing on animals so I make sure I check the small print on any household products and things like that, before buying.

Thanks. Co-op are supposed to be the ethical company to buy products from. (Their own brand things are not tested on animals since 1983/5).

I believe IAMS are the worst for animal testing for pet food. No one seems to care what chemicals they pump into the poor animals or how they torture them.

You would have thought by now that they could find a glue that didnt involve killing animals.

QUOTE (uberzoldat @ Apr 18 2005, 05:06 PM)

You would have thought by now that they could find a glue that didnt involve killing animals.

There are many glues of mineral or vegetable origin, mostly the former. However, to repair an instrument, lutiers need to be able to take it apart at the glued joint. So far no synthetic glue has found favour with them for the job of glueing the plates to the sides. They are all either too weak or too strong. Bone glues are just right.

Thanks, Kenm. Guess I'm in for a long wait.

QUOTE

They are all either too weak or too strong.

I once saw a violin with repairs that had used a combination of UHU and Superglue. Apart from the fact that both had reacted badly with the varnish, I dread to think what a luthier would have used in order to get the instrument apart - a hammer and chisel come to mind

QUOTE (uberzoldat @ Apr 19 2005, 01:35 PM)

Thanks, Kenm. Guess I'm in for a long wait.

I once read a book on how to make your own violin. Despite never having played one, and never having done any wood work before, I started with some 2x4 from B&Q and a penknife. I didn't get very far, and goodness knows what the thing would have sounded like! But at least I'd have known what the glue was (probably superglue and Pritt Stick!)

hmm, sounds like fun. did it tell you how to chisel in your own scroll design?

the thing is it isnt cruelty exactly its cruelty by-products so at least there not being killed directly by the demand for hair and the glue pot needs to be used as if somebody used superglue they would seriously damage the tone and value of the instrument (only exception is a student instrument) they dont have tone or value

I can see where you're coming from, but the principle is an animal has to suffer and die for whatever product we take from them, be it a direct product or a slaughterhouse by-product. It's all the same, the animal still had to die. It's not that there aren't any suitable glue alternatives out there, because I'm sure if it was researched, one would be found. It's that people are content to continue exploiting animals for their own use, and an aversion of blame like that is exactly what keeps it going. That is why I will not buy a violin that uses animal products.

The thing is, those horses are being killed anyway for all the other products that are used... is it really better that the hair from their tails is thrown away rather than used for something worthwhile? As far as I understood that article, the horses are never killed for the purpose of harvesting the hair: the bow industry is not even a large part of the horsehair industry. If those horses are dying anyway (sad but true) then surely it's a good thing that their hair is being used for the noble purpose of producing music.

As for animals being killed for meat: I do very much think that all animals should be kept in FAR better conditions, MUCH less intensively farmed, etc... but an awful lot of the animals that we eat for meat have been bred over the centuries until they can't survive by themselves, because they have been bred to be farmed... I am not denying anyone's right to be a vegetarian or vegan if they so choose, but realistically if everyone in the world suddenly became a vegetarian, cows, sheep etc would largely become expensive pets that would end up being slaughtered because no one could afford to look after them. Of course we would probably still use wool, and milk, but that still leaves hundreds, probably thousands, of herds of beef cows, and many sheep, that would basically have no use... the majority of male sheep for instance would be likely killed anyway. Beef cows are different from dairy cows: one can't simply say, oh it's OK, we won't kill them for meat, we'll milk them instead... it's a whole different ball game. Unless one can find a way to look after those sheep and cows, and the money to do it (and growing up in a farming area I can tell you it's intensive work and not something one could do as a hobby) they would die either from having to be killed, from starvation, or from diseases, and the land on which they had been grazing - our green and pleasant land - would probably end up being planted to the gills with oil seed rape... Most farmers (except the super-rich ones who most of them aren't!) could not possibly afford to leave those fields as grass, could not afford to allow animals to graze who were not going to provide them with profit...

Similarly with chickens etc... if no one ate chicken or eggs, very few people would want to keep chickens... no, we shouldn't have battery farms (I would definitely recommend organic and free range eggs & chicken whenever possible) but if the whole country stopped eating eggs those hens, and the free range ones, would face an uncertain future because there are SO many of them, and there's no way that every one would be able to find homes with families who wanted to keep them as pets.

In my opinion (and I'm not expecting anyone to subscribe to this just because I say so, but tis mine nonetheless!) it is better to campaign for the conditions of animals to be drastically improved, and the methods of raising and slaughtering them to be as humane for the animals as possible; to make sure the meat you buy is from farms where the animals are looked after properly and well (which incidentally will support local farmers who are trying to do things right rather than intensive battery-style farming); to buy meat & eggs that have been locally produced and come from farms you KNOW are doing things the right way...

Not eating meat because you don't want to is fine - I have all respect for you for that... But sadly, not eating meat or eggs or buying leather clothes or horsehair bows is not actually going to mean those animals have a secure future and can live into a happy old age... maybe it should, but things don't work that way. And won't until we find a way to house feed and care for hundreds of thousands of animals that have no commercial use and aren't really suitable pets, because their breeding over the years has not been aimed at that... (and remember also that many of these animals would probably be long extinct or rare if they hadn't been bred for meat...) I'm not trying to be devil's advocate... it's just that things aren't as simple as stop eating meat (or buying horsehair bows) = animals stop suffering... Bit like the whole fox-hunting debacle, where the problem with all hunts suddenly stopping is that hundreds of foxhounds, bred for vicious attacking foxes and certainly NOT you ideal family pet, suddenly have nothing to do and probably end up being put down... (not that I'm pro-fox-hunting, btw, in terms of the large hunts streaming across the countryside and ripping foxes to shreds not to mention people's fields, it's just that the issues are rarely as simple as some people would have you believe...)

You could always try a carbon fibre violin, I'm sure these aren't glued with animal glue. Recently read a revue of one somewhere on the web, but can't remember where. As for the bow take a look at the INCREDIBOW. It's totaly synthetic and is supposed to be quite good. I've seen a few good revues about this. I think the website is incredibow.com. Check out all the horrible colours/finishes available.

Uberzoldat - I really admire you for taking a stand against animal cruelty. I am a vegetarian. Have you looked at this site? www.theanimalrescuesite.com Clicking on the 'give an animal a bowl of food' button does actually work (ie: sponsors pay animal charities the cost of .6 bowls of food). The vegetarian society also has a good website with lots of information about products which contain animal derivatives.

I knew that the hair on bows came from horses but I had no idea it came from horses killed for meat and I didn't know about the glue either. I'm not a vegetarian or anything but I do feel rather uncomfortable about my bow now...

At least there is an alternative to gut strings these days.

Jane

Hi Puff Cat, thanks! I haven't seen this site before, thanks for posting it. There is a similar site where if you click a button, sponsors will pay for food for starving people in underpriviliged countries as well. I will find the link up if you're interested.



Thanks, Jinxter for the information. I will most certainly investigate those further!

Yes but will they still have horse hair, or is this synthetic too?

Not sure, I will check though.

Hi Sarah, sorry I only just noticed your post, I would have replied sooner.

I can see what you are meaning from this, but I feel if I was to buy a horsehair product, as a by-product from slaughter, I feel I would be a hypocrite. Much in the same way that I will not eat gelatine or any other slaughterhouse by-products in the UK from any other animal. I think that by supporting even the minimal part of the industry, I am helping to 'hold the knife'. (If you see what I mean).
If a law was passed tomorrow about horse slaughter, and it stopped worldwide, what would happen to the bow industry? Would they have to all go synthetic? They are still supporting it. How many bows are sold in the world everyday?

I hope you know I am stating why I disagree, I am not trying to force my beliefs upon you. I respect that you are 100% entitled to your own opinion, just like everyone else.



It’s unrealistic to expect that everyone will stop eating animals overnight. As the demand for meat decreases, the number of animals bred will decrease. Farmers will stop breeding so many animals and will turn to other types of agriculture. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives. We would not need to keep farm animals in a vegetarian world, but we could organise well-managed nature reserves where they could live out their lives peacefully.
Animals on factory farms suffer so much that it is inconceivable that they could be worse off in the wild. The wild isn’t "wild" to the animals who live there; it’s their home. There they have their freedom and can engage in their natural activities. The fact that they might suffer in the wild is no reason to ensure that they suffer in captivity. Male chicks are as useless to the industry as male dairy calves and all are killed – including those on free-range and organic systems.




I agree that it should work that way, but everyone makes a difference, however small and why should I deny any animals the small difference I could make? (I know you are not saying that I should). (In a way, I suppose it's like giving to charity - every penny counts to them). In their lifetime, the average individual human will consume hundreds of animals. I am happy that I am now longer contributing to those figures. (I'll be damned if I can't find the reference, but will update you when I find it.)

Anyway, have to go for now. Sorry about the long post, if I have missed anything I will add to it later. Thanks for putting up with my rambling.

This sparks an interesting thought though. Not that I have great feelings myself either way...but if we were all vegetarian would animals like cows and sheep etc actually survive in the wild anymore, or would they become prey to other meat eaters, and also unable to sustain themselves without the farmers interventions on feeding, breeding and (in the case of cows) milking. Would they all become endangered species?

Just a thought!

I've been reading about natural glues recently with an eye to harpsichord manufacturing (they use the term 'Historically Informed Glue'). The big drawback with the synthetic glues is that although they can be used to glue two fresh pieces of wood together, should the joint break (or should repair necessitate it's breaking) then it isn't possible to glue wood onto a surface which has already been synthetically glued once already. This isn't the case with natural glue - natural glue can be used with pre-naturally-glued surfaces.

Uberzoldat - if I may ask you a question: if you were to chance upon a horse in the wild which had sadly passed away of natural causes, would you then be okay with using its tail for a bow and boiling its hooves for glue? I can understand your objection to using a by-product of system of animal welfare which, in your opinion, is unethical and immoral; would the objection still stand if the horse hair and glue came from outside of that system?

I'd hazard a guess that even if the answer to this is 'no', you'd find it less objectionable than slaughterhouse by-product horse hair. After all, I guess if you were idealistic to the point of refusing to use any animal-derived products, you'd be unwilling to use any product made using crude-oil derivatives (oil being fermented animal remains).

What is synthetic glue made of, incidentally? I'd guess it's a petrochemical process - some sort of sticky crude-oil derivative. Personally, I'd rather use a renewable glue source rather than something made from oil. Then again, you might be able to get pure-vegetable glue.

Anyhow, I digress, back to the issue of a vegan violin: one can buy baroque violin kits - the wood arrives pre-cut, the rest is up to you. You'd be free then to use whatever glue you want.

Vegan Violin, sounds like the title to a film

Well you can get synthetic bow hair, but it is not supposedly as good as the natural product.

Also it is not necessary to take the hair from the dead animal. its just that I guess as a by-product it will be cheper. I guess from slaughtered horses there is far too much hair available for string instrument players use.

You can harvest from live animals, and do them no harm, just thin their tail out a bit, but this process will inevitably be more expensive to do.

Maybe you could keep your own horse as a supply. and I wonder if you could also use its toe nail clippings for instument glue without damaging the living creature?

Actually, could one use one's own nail clippings to make glue? (Seriously?)

As far as farmer's intervention would go, these herbivorous animals would sustain themselves in much the same way as existing wild herbivorous animals do; rabbits deer etc. Sure, they wouldn't be seen in every field you pass, but they breed by themselves. They produce milk only when pregnant, which is why farmed dairy cows are artificially inseminated not long after they give birth, and so kept constantly pregnant. Most people think that it hurts the cows not to be milked, which, in the wild is untrue, the milk they produce is for their young, and their young only. In farms, they are injected with extra hormones to make the amount of milk their bodies produce increase up to three-fold. Hence, their udders swell and get infected because their bodies are not built to produce so much milk. (so it would hurt for them not to be milked, and to be milked.) If they were never injected with these hormones in the first place, they would only produce milk enough for their young. Based on this, these animals could survive without human intervention (and should, I think).



That's an interesting question. I suppose that in the general sense, it would be ok if it had died of natural causes (although that wouldn't happen often enough to provide enough violins, violas, etc with what they need), but personally I would still not use it, because I believe (and I think that this is what most people disagree with) that animals are not ours to use as we please. As long as there is a synthetic bow and violin available, I will use that instead. If there is no synthetic alternative available, I will simply not play a violin, viola. etc.


That is interesting to know, I will have to do a search on that. Thanks.


yes, it does rather.

Hmm, and has it been tried? Have to start collecting mine.

Okay, I understand your viewpoint now; it reduces to that one simple tenet. Understanding opposing killing animals for personal gain is understandable; the issue I guess which is difficult to grasp, perhaps, is how one can regard an existing dead animal to be in anyway different to any other non-living organism. On the issue of cow hormones, the last time I checked injecting cows with hormones was practised in the US, but not in this country - we have a milk surplus anyway, the milk produced is of a lower quality, and it can give the cows medical problems (which cost money to cure, of course).

But anyway, may I applaud your consistency of the application of your beliefs . I've lost track of the number of vegetarians I know who don't eat meat, but will eat animal by-products such as gelatine and rennet. I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat any cow-derived products myself; I have, however, sat at meals where I've not ordered a dessert because I don't know what's in them, but the 'vegetarians' all tuck in to a range of desserts and cheeses....

Uberzoldat, have to totally agree with YAP that I have all respect for the consistency of your attitudes, I've known some "vegetarians" who are only against eating essentially "cute" animals... pulleeeeeeeeeeease!

As to whether sheep/cows would survive in the wild... I have my doubts. I am no farmer, but I have all my life lived in farming areas and known farms and farm animals. Sheep are not intelligent or independent creatures...

Cows are definitely artifically inseminated to make them pregant, but actually few farmers in the UK use hormones to make them produce more - they have been bred over centuries for milk production. I have friends who are dairy farmers (in fact, at least 2 families) neither of which I am fairly sure use any type of hormone, in fact the second family are certified organic farmers and aren't allowed to, and they milk 3 times a day mainly not because it increases the yield (which it does but only by a very small amount) but because it allows the cows to live longer... it's actually better for them. Strange but true, and something I learned only recently. The dairy herds have been bred to produce a lot of milk (which may may not be "right" but isn't something we can go back and change...), their top yield cow produces about 120 pints each day............

I don't have time to really reply properly right now as I'm on my mum's pay per minute connection, but thanks for stating your reasonings etc and I will get back to you

Then - a case of one good churn deserves an udder?


PF

I agree with this. There're not going to stop making bows out of horse hair all of a sudden, and they've been doing it for years and years. Sometimes its just the way nature works.

But don't horses get haircuts?

If you cut the tail hair, won't it grow back?


.

I don't know actually, I think in practice there's enough horse hair spare from abbatoirs that using hair from live horses would be uneconomical. And, of course, it'd still offend those who believe:

I never believed for a second they would. Has not slavery also been going on for years and years? Does the history of an action give it integrity and automatic right to continue?

I have never said or thought that pain, suffering, or suchlike would stop overnight, and no realistic person would think that either. Therefore, the way I think is based on gradual change, not a lightning effect.

Sarah, ditto I am pushed for time now, but I will just say that I agree there are some farmers out there who are acting with concern to their animals. I found this exerpt of info. Be back later.





Also agree that sheep aren't too bright, but considering if the UK were to farm grain to feed humans and animals, not in the numbers of hundreds of thousands that are being factory farmed every year, we would only need a third of the arable land that is in use now. There would most definitely be space to look after sheep in a reserve-type way. (and I dare say enough compassionate people around to care for them. I know of several people who have set up 'farm sanctuaries' to care for rescued slaughter farm animals in the UK, and I'm sure there are more.)

Ok, really have to go now. Talk later.

The belief that humans are entitled to use animals in any way they wish was promulgated by certain holy books millennia ago and it has stuck. That was the wisdom under which things like violin bows, gut strings and fish glue were first invented. It's a big tradition to have to work against.



PF

I know, and we haven't even touched the vivisection area yet.

Or all the damage artificial alternatives do to the environment...

Sorry, could you explain that one to me please? I didn't understand your post.





flush it!