Hi..

Ive just recently passed my grade 8 for piano (Merit) and now im currently doing a ATCL recital Diploma for Trinity. Im also teaching 10 students a week.(Still looking for more students)
But I wanted to know what else can You do with a grade 8 qualification.
for example...
Any piano courses in London where you just need grade8
and you can get another qualification?
Or can you teach in any schools with my
qualification? (like Primary or private schools)

Please help

Hi David

You are being sensible in working towards a professional (i.e. Diploma) qualification.

The graded exam system offers a series of yardsticks whereby amateur musicians can judge their progress. Passing grade 8 is an achievement that deserves praise but grade 8 is not a professional qualification.

Any school employing an instrumental teacher will require that individual to be qualified with at least a Diploma; the Head will hope for a teacher with a degree.

I advise you to keep working towards your ATCL, then the LTCL. Are you young enough and good enough to go to music college? Most music college students start aged 18; grade 8 is several years behind them.

I came across your post whilst browsing through and replied because nobody else appeared to have taken the trouble to try to help. I have added a 'watch-this-topic' tag, so do not hesitate to ask for further advice. I have been a professional piano teacher and performer for 25 years.

Steve

QUOTE

Any school employing an instrumental teacher will require that individual to be qualified with at least a Diploma; the Head will hope for a teacher with a degree.

Um, where did you get that idea?

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ May 9 2005, 07:36 AM)

QUOTE Any school employing an instrumental teacher will require that individual to be qualified with at least a Diploma; the Head will hope for a teacher with a degree. Um, where did you get that idea? Violinia

Experience. Yours might be different.

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 9 2005, 07:44 AM)

QUOTE (Violinia @ May 9 2005, 07:36 AM) QUOTE Any school employing an instrumental teacher will require that individual to be qualified with at least a Diploma; the Head will hope for a teacher with a degree. Um, where did you get that idea? Violinia

Sorry, Violina. My instant response was terse - the bath was running. Lying in it, I realised I had been terse.

To expand from my experience (extensive - 25 years as a pro pianist, mostly private teaching but with large dollops of performing thrown in):

State schools do not employ piano teachers, as a general rule. I have asked head teachers and heads of music departments why not and their response is always the same: there are sufficient private piano teachers around so the school does not need to accommodate the extra disruption to students' timetables that offering lessons would create; they prefer instrumental lessons to be offered to groups and piano teachers are reluctant to do this.

Small private day-schools occasionally offer pupils the facility of piano lessons. In my experience, most prefer not to, for the same reasons as state schools.

Private boarding schools are the biggest employers of private piano teachers. Their head teachers take great care over the piano teachers they employ, checking qualifications and investigating experience. They understand what is, and is not, a professional qualification; they also understand the relative difference\value of say, an externally taken ATCL and an internal B Mus from a conservatoire. It is common these days for the head teachers\HOM's to want to see the prospective teacher give samples lessons. Not surprising, really, as they are going to be sending bills to parents who will be quick to complain if teaching standards are poor.

I stress, all this is in my experience. That of others may be different.

I appreciate your response.

What you say is definitely true of the private sector, but the whole set-up is different there. Lessons are longer and generally individual, and as you say, the parents expect the highest qualifications from private school instrumental teachers.

In state schools you can be hired either through the music service or directly by the school. The music services often just ask for a music degree, a teaching qualification and/or a good standard on your instrument. Diplomas aren't normally expected, although a candidate with a diploma will probably take precedence over a candidate without - it all depends who is after the job at the time!

The CTABRSM is a very good qualification to have, and no grades are needed on your instrument - just a demonstrable ability to play competently. The course is good because you learn teaching skills in abundance, including learning styles and the vagaries of teaching the various aspects of technique on your instrument.

At an interview with a music service you may be asked to perform some repertoire of about Grade 6 standard, and answer questions on how you would approach a beginner, or a particular teaching problem.

In my experience, it is rare to teach beyond Grade 6 in a state school, as students tend to drift off at around the GCSE period. If they only have only ever lessons at school, which often amount to just 30 shared lessons a year and no contact between teacher and parents, most are realistically unlikely to progress beyond Grade 6, if that. I have 5 school students studying for Grade 4 at the moment, which is a record (I've been in schools for about eighteen months), but it's a long slog due to the shared half-hour lessons factor.

So as you can see, the state and private schools are two different worlds, instrumental teaching-wise - sad, but true.

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ May 9 2005, 09:07 AM)

So as you can see, the state and private schools are two different worlds, instrumental teaching-wise - sad, but true. Violinia

In some ways, I agree with you there, although there are disadvantages for the music pupils at private boarding schools. Terms are short but highly intensive; the schools have to provide for their boarders all those activities\opportunities the students would enjoy at home. A hectic term-time schedule can make timetabling lessons difficult. Students can find regular practise difficult - and there are no parents to nag them! They can go over 3 months without a lesson during the summer, resulting in a 1-step-forward-2-steps-back scenario.

I therefore see the role of an instrumental teacher in a private boarding school as being the equivalent to that of the teacher giving private lessons. I think the role of the state school peri is a different one.

For me, the role of the state school peri is to offer as many students as possible the opportunity to try learning a musical instrument in an easily affordable way. These teachers can reach a large number of students, much larger than I can reach giving my 50 x 30 (occasionally 45 or 60) minute lessons a week to individual pupils. I also feel lessons given via the peri service should be free of charge; that is the only way in which open access can be guaranteed. I also feel that it should be possible for talented or highly enthusiastic to be offered the individual tuition they need, funded by bursaries if necessary.

I feel strongly about this. A talented but unenthusiastic private piano student, I was also a beneficiary of free peripatetic violin lessons at school in the 1960's. I learned in a group; I was no good, but no matter. Because I was learning in school, I had to play with the school orchestra. The orchestra took part in 3 performances of Britten's children's operetta Noah's Flood - I was scraping away on the open strings required by 'ripieno violin 3'! I loved every second of rehearsing and performing the work and was committed to a career as a musician as a result. Happily, I was 1000 better a pianist than violinist, so the rest, as they say, is history.

Of c ourse, my piano lessons were not provided in school; these were provided and pain for privately. It was no more possible to get piano lessons in state schools then than it is now. This brings me back to David's original posting, which was asking (amongst other things) whether he would be able to teach the piano in school now that he has passed grade 8. My answer is still, "No".

Steve

SOME schools do offer piano tuition in school - my secondary school did. Just not as common as other instruments maybe, and becoming less common along with all the other in-school tuition.

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life;
Music and cats." Albert Schweitzer


Sorry, Sarah, but I am owned by 5 cats. Since when were they ".......an escape from the miseries of life.....". Surely they cause most of them

Dogs have owners: cats have staff

but aren't they cute when they purr?

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 10:03 PM)

Dogs have owners: cats have staff

Our lot have Tin Openers.

And yes, they are cute when they purr.

Or lie on their backs asking for tummy tickles.

Am I sad, or what (reply not required)?

Oh dear - they know how to use tin openers? You do realise that when the news gets out cats will rule the world?

And... nope, not going to reply as the answer would apply to me as well...

Of course one has to be careful to differentiate between "lying on their backs asking for tummy tickles" and "lying on their backs pretending to ask for tummy tickles but actually waiting for your hand to come close enough to shred"

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 10:22 PM)

Of course one has to be careful to differentiate between "lying on their backs asking for tummy tickles" and "lying on their backs pretending to ask for tummy tickles but actually waiting for your hand to come close enough to shred"

I'm glad it isn't just my lot. All have their favourite pupils - pupils for whom they will break down the music room door if that is what is needed to gain access.

All are great big softies. A tummy exists so that a child can tickle it. Children tickle it with impunity. And mutual pleasure.

All except for Sylvie.

Sylvie is soft as butter. She purrs. She meows. She licky-licks. She is the favourite of all pupils. Everyone wants her in their lesson.

I cannot refuse.

She will rip the arm off anyone daft enough to accept her invitation to tummy-tickle.

Happily, I live in an area as yet unblighted by the sue-everyone-for-everything culture, but it is only a matter of time.

My career lives on borrowed time.

Sylvie is 7. What do you think will go first? Sylvie or my career?

It's a close run thing, but given how awkward cats can be, I have to tell you I'm afraid I'd likely bet on Sylvie lasting longer...

She sounds like my kind of cat by the way. I like a challenge

(maybe you could have her de-clawed before someone sues?... and apologies to David for straying so hopelessly off topic, I'll shut up and go to bed now I promise...)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 10:49 PM)

It's a close run thing, but given how awkward cats can be, I have to tell you I'm afraid I'd likely bet on Sylvie lasting longer... She sounds like my kind of cat by the way. I like a challenge (maybe you could have her de-clawed before someone sues?... and apologies to David for straying so hopelessly off topic, I'll shut up and go to bed now I promise...)

Yes, sorry David. Me too. These forums are addictive especially if, like me, you work in the evenings and are not a slave to the early morning alarm clock.

Um, one last thing. Sarah, you wouldn't like a homicidal pussy-cat, would you?

Night, all.

Or: morning all, if you are just thinking, "What have the latest bunch of sleep-deprived dingbats been wittering about when the sane have been happily tucked up in bed?"

Actually I'd love a homicidal pussy cat, but sadly no way could I afford to keep one at the moment. She sounds great *grin*

Anyway, now back to your usual programming, folks...

An interesting post this (apart from the deviation to world of cats!!). I have been thinking about teaching in schools and only have grade 8 piano, although a degree in something else. There was an article in today's London evening standard paper about the large amount of unqualified teachers in this country teaching subjects such as maths and science (although with degrees in the subject I guess) and a comment about `instructors' in music, meaning peri teachers. I'm pretty sure some of these are people who don't have qualifications further than Grade 8, so I suppose it is down to whether you can find work. I have been told variously that if you have grade 8 you can teach up to about grade 5 ish, but I also know a couple of people who have conservatoire post grad qualifications who won't teach further than grade 5/6 ( which seems nuts to me). If anyone knows of any agencies or music services to approach would be grateful.

I reallt don't know why there's this whole obsession about Grade 8, or come to mention them - qualifications at all.

A musician can be highly accomplished and a brilliant teacher too - they may just have decided not to go the conventional route. I've seen it hinted here that a lack of qualifications probably means a lack of ability, or if not that - "well, why not just get the qualification anyway - what are they afraid of?" etc etc.

I know some gypsy musicians who could knock the socks off any of us musically - some of them also teach - extremely well. None of them have a single qualification to their name.

As for not being able to teach beyond Grade 5 or 6 if you're "only Grade 8" - what's that supposed to mean?

A musician could have taken Grade 8 years ago, and progressed out of all recogniton since then just through playing. Another musician could have taken a diploma years ago and stagnated since then. Who is likely to be the better player?

This obsession with measuring progress through grades can get very limiting - after all, you can get to grade 8, ploughing through the grades one by one and only playing 24 pieces in your entire life. It happens. But it shouldn't.

Violinia

After grade 8 you could follow the example of one forum member - see viva piano for further details. Having passed grade 8 piano with 135, he is repeating grade 7 (also 135) because he only got 11/18 for aural tests. I'm sure thats an alternative very few have ever considered after grade 8.

QUOTE (Violinia @ May 10 2005, 01:39 PM)

I reallt don't know why there's this whole obsession about Grade 8, or come to mention them - qualifications at all.

It isn't really an obsession, Violina. More a recognition of reality.

David was asking, amongst other things, whether he would be able to teach the piano in schools, having just passed grade 8.

I think he would struggle to find a post with only a graded exam pass under his belt.

Steve

QUOTE

After grade 8 you could follow the example of one forum member - see viva piano for further details. Having passed grade 8 piano with 135, he is repeating grade 7 (also 135) because he only got 11/18 for aural tests. I'm sure thats an alternative very few have ever considered after grade 8.

Quite a thought, isn't it??

A whole new world of possibility opens up ....


Maggie

It certainly does! I suppose grade 6 will be next....

QUOTE (claire_c @ May 10 2005, 12:59 PM)

I have been told variously that if you have grade 8 you can teach up to about grade 5 ish, but I also know a couple of people who have conservatoire post grad qualifications who won't teach further than grade 5/6 (which seems nuts to me).

I think that's more to do with confidence and experience than which grades you've passed - passing grade 8 does not mean you have any ability to teach... and certainly (as Violinia said above) NOT having grade 8 doesn't mean you have no teaching ability... in fact I'd say when it comes to *teaching*, the grade exams don't prove anything either way... having a certain level of expertise is NOT the same as being able to pass your skills on.

Noodle - no, you're being logical, I don't think it applies in that case!

Hi there,

If you don't want to take the next step with Associated Board, why not try the Open University Dip Mus course. It is 2 separate year courses and very enjoyable.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 10 2005, 04:59 PM)

having a certain level of expertise is NOT the same as being able to pass your skills on.

I'd agree with this to a certain extent but I do believe that it's important to have the skills to pass on: it does frustrate me when people who have just scraped passes at grade 3 suddenly think they can teach! I do agree it depends on the person: as someone with a lot of skill you are ready to teach after doing grade 4 (although you are clearly above that standard); whereas some people who have done grade 8 would do no end of damage to people's technique by teaching. Instrumental teaching is, I think, more so than anything else something where the teacher has to me much more advanced than the pupil; whereas in something like theory (or maths or most other things) the teacher can stay just one step ahead if they want to. To play a grade 1 piece to distinction level (and articulate to someone else how to do so) may require skills that someone having done grade 8 with a teacher (and having been told exactly what to do in each piece) simply does not possess, even though that person may possibly manage to get a distinction in grade 8. Teaching ability probably depends more on the independence one has gained from one's teacher than the skill level one has achieved (although obviously a minimum level of skills will be necessary).

I have nothing against unqualified teachers, provided they are of an appropriate standard, but I do think it's a bit irresponsible when people teach when their qualifications clearly demonstrate that they are not ready to teach yet (i.e. scraped grade 3 last year or whatever).

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ May 13 2005, 12:06 PM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 10 2005, 04:59 PM) having a certain level of expertise is NOT the same as being able to pass your skills on. I'd agree with this to a certain extent but I do believe that it's important to have the skills to pass on

Oh yes! Absolutely! You do really need both... And teaching at different levels requires different qualities too: the teachers who can teach competently and confidently from total beginner to post-graduate are few and far between. Getting a complete beginning started is quite different from helping a technically highly accomplished musician discover their musical voice and learn how to interpret music at LRSM level.... even in between, there's a big difference between for example helping someone to get a note out of a flute, to helping them get a clear tone, then onto helping them develop tone colour, then how to use different tone colours...

I know a very very talented violin teacher who's fantastic at teaching children and beginners, getting their enthusiasm fired... but dislikes and is not nearly so good at teaching adults or higher level players even though she is a very talented musician and teacher. I can think of a piano teacher I know of but don't know well personally who has the best reputation with grade 8 plus students but even with my scant knowledge of her I'd say she'd be more than slightly scary for an 8 year old beginner!

It's a balance between having the skill and being able to pass it on... although, though I wouldn't recommend serious teaching in an instrument you're not so good at, two situations when it's possible or even desirable spring to mind: one, is advanced teaching, when the student is highly accomplished technically and honing their music not their playing (if you see what I mean), when a very good music teacher from any discipline can help them with interpretation & musicianship, because it's not technical skill on that instrument they are using... the second is when someone has been taught something which they cannot necessarily do, but if they are able to explain it then they may well be able to pass it on to someone else: I think there are things that I know how to do on the flute which I could help even a more advanced student with even though I can't get it physically right every time myself... I certainly know that when I was first learning vibrato on the violin (and couldn't do it myself!) I managed to teach a friend's sister (extremely talented, got-scholarship-for-chetham's, prodigy type!) how to do it even though I couldn't really demonstrate on the instrument - I showed her on my hand, explained it (the passing on skills that one needs) and she was doing it easily and naturally after 5 minutes. Now, I wouldn't want to try and teach the violin... but certainly there are skills on that and other instruments that I can pass on in a small way to people without necessarily being able to do it very efficiently myself! Half the battle is explaining the "how". So while I don't think that's a basis to teach an instrument, certainly one can teach specific things without necessarily having huge levels of skill.