I'm stuck! How do you motivate a student like that? Perhaps I am not firm enough? Please help.
Full Version: Unmotivated Student
I have an 8-year old boy who has been learning for about 1 year without any progress. He complained that his first teacher was too strict so he found another- me. I have been teaching him for 6 months now. He comes to lesson once a week without doing any practice at home! So he struggle to finish even the simplest tune in class every time. I asked him if he really wants to learn the violin and he said yes. However, I suspect that may be he just wants to have an older friend since his parents seem to be buzy all the time. He won't practice no matter what I do. I have explained to him the correct posture a number of times but he still sticks with his old habit. I think he is a smart boy who has attitude problems- he often does not listen and refuse to try.
I'm stuck! How do you motivate a student like that? Perhaps I am not firm enough? Please help.
I'm stuck! How do you motivate a student like that? Perhaps I am not firm enough? Please help.
Hey pumkin I know exactly how you feel. When you come across this kind of problem and you have tried a variety of ways to motivate, you end up feeling its all your own fault and questioning your ability as a teacher. Its a tricky thing. He's not too old so keeping things 'fun' is pretty essential. What kind of tunes are you using with him? Maybe try writing out current pop tunes that he may know or tv themes that will make music more relevant to him??
Have you spoken to his parents? I have a few pupils who are between 6 and 8 and I find it quite difficult to motivate. Perhaps its his concentration levels in which case spend the lesson doing different things like work on a tune, a bit of clapping (rhythms), maybe get him to write his own tune???
Hope some of these ideas help - but dont worry , it almost certainly isnt your teaching (the fact you are concerned shows that you ARE bothered about him - a lot of teachers would just be happy collecting the money)
Have you spoken to his parents? I have a few pupils who are between 6 and 8 and I find it quite difficult to motivate. Perhaps its his concentration levels in which case spend the lesson doing different things like work on a tune, a bit of clapping (rhythms), maybe get him to write his own tune???
Hope some of these ideas help - but dont worry , it almost certainly isnt your teaching (the fact you are concerned shows that you ARE bothered about him - a lot of teachers would just be happy collecting the money)
In my experience students of this age tend to flounder with the violin unless they have a musical and supportive parent who is prepared to supervise frequent practice sessions. Not for nothing did Suzuki have the mother attend all lessons and learn to play Twinkle on the violin herself so she can help effectively with practice.
It's a problem I'm grappling with continually.
On much reflection, in the absence of a parent who can play violin themselves or put the hours in with practice help, the best thing is to give the student very little to learn each week. Keep it really simple, but make it fun with backing tracks and/or nice colourful books. Reward with stickers etc, and get the parent at least to sign a practice diary.
However, the downside of all this is that the parent then ends up nagging the child to practise, which often means dragging them away from the computer/telly and setting up a negative cycle. You also have the competing demands of Brownies, Woodcraft, dance lessons, swimming, parties ...arrrghhhh!!!!!!
It really is a wonder any child gets anywhere with violin these days, and to be honest many just don't, and tend to give up after 2-3 years, or keep coming but mainly because they just enjoy the lessons.
I'm seriously thinking of setting up my own little orchestra - to meet once a month - (due to competing weekend demands - aaarrrgh) - just to give them something real to aim for - like playing well in front of and alongside the others. Then they may actually find they enjoy playing with the others, and who knows where that could lead, motivation-wise...
Sheila Nelson gets them all playing in groups as well as alone, but then - she's Sheila Nelson.
It's a problem, there's no doubt, and if more violin teachers (including myself) were more honest about what an uphill struggle it can all be, we may be able to pool our ideas and really help each other.
Violinia
It's a problem I'm grappling with continually.
On much reflection, in the absence of a parent who can play violin themselves or put the hours in with practice help, the best thing is to give the student very little to learn each week. Keep it really simple, but make it fun with backing tracks and/or nice colourful books. Reward with stickers etc, and get the parent at least to sign a practice diary.
However, the downside of all this is that the parent then ends up nagging the child to practise, which often means dragging them away from the computer/telly and setting up a negative cycle. You also have the competing demands of Brownies, Woodcraft, dance lessons, swimming, parties ...arrrghhhh!!!!!!
It really is a wonder any child gets anywhere with violin these days, and to be honest many just don't, and tend to give up after 2-3 years, or keep coming but mainly because they just enjoy the lessons.
I'm seriously thinking of setting up my own little orchestra - to meet once a month - (due to competing weekend demands - aaarrrgh) - just to give them something real to aim for - like playing well in front of and alongside the others. Then they may actually find they enjoy playing with the others, and who knows where that could lead, motivation-wise...
Sheila Nelson gets them all playing in groups as well as alone, but then - she's Sheila Nelson.
It's a problem, there's no doubt, and if more violin teachers (including myself) were more honest about what an uphill struggle it can all be, we may be able to pool our ideas and really help each other.
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| You also have the competing demands of Brownies, Woodcraft, dance lessons, swimming, parties ...arrrghhhh!!!!!! |
etc etc ..... ! Not just a problem with violin I guess, but with any instrument. Parents who phone up asking about lessons sometimes want one particular day after school "because it's the only day not completely booked up with activities" !!
I generally feel like asking whether they seriously think their child is going to be able to fit in a few minutes' practice here and there !
Supportive parents - yes, the right sort of support is very necessary. For instruments where the early attempts are not always tuneful, this support needs to be uncritical I think to be helpful and not discouraging. Parents who are musical themselves don't always realise how difficult those early stages can be.
Also, if parents are very busy, this sometimes means very little relaxed time at home, (eg after-school club, homework and bed) and precious little time for or encouragement with practice.
Maggie
| QUOTE (maggiemay @ Apr 27 2005, 01:42 PM) |
| Also, if parents are very busy, this sometimes means very little relaxed time at home, (eg after-school club, homework and bed) and precious little time for or encouragement with practice. Maggie |
I wonder if all this effectively means that less children are becoming proficient at music than they used to, when there was less on?
Looking at the comparitive AB statistics would tell you, I suppose. More merits and distinctions would suggest more proficiency - or would it just suggest more are doing exams?
When I was a child, the only extra-curricular lessons I ever did were: ballet for a year or so, piano for a year, violin for 10 years, riding for a couple of years, swimming for a couple of years, judo for a bit - and that was it. There was never more than one activity a week apart from violin. Most days I just came straight home from school (give or take a bit of messing about with friends on the way home)and that was it. (God doesn't this make me sound like a typical middle-class product of the 50's/60's!
)No wonder I had so much time to practise the violin, play with friends, go out on my bike, read, write, paint, draw etc etc. We didn't even have a telly till I was 9, and that was only 1 channel and in black-and-white...
Those were the days!
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| No wonder I had so much time to practise the violin, play with friends, go out on my bike, read, write, paint, draw etc etc. We didn't even have a telly till I was 9, and that was only 1 channel and in black-and-white... |
yep - sounds familiar!
Around here, many children seem to do:
swimming, ballet, extra maths class (kumon), drama, one or more sports, brownies or similar, in addition to extra activities at school like sports matches, choir and orchestra. One of my pupils aged 11 has two activities on the same day as the piano lesson and it's not untypical.
Another pupil (ex-pupil actually) had two or three separate activities every day of the week. It became clear that it was getting a bit much; I resisted pressure from parents to do grade 4 as the child had started going backwards after doing well up to grade 3 - great pity. We parted company at this point - I hope it provided a breathing space!
We have not time to stand and stare ??
Maggie
| QUOTE |
| In my experience students of this age tend to flounder with the violin unless they have a musical and supportive parent who is prepared to supervise frequent practice sessions. |
...and one very good reason I will no longer take on beginners under the age of 10 unless they have come from a musical family/background, or at the very least have parents who are musically literate so that they can help and encourage proper practice. No instrument is easy to learn, not if you want to play it well, but bowed string instruments probably rate amongst the most difficult of any.
I agree that there are so many other diversions these days. It continually amazes me why thugs go around vandalising property, using the excuse that there is nothing to do!! I'm not that old, but when I was a child computer/TV games were in their infancy and the internet wasn't even heard of. A computer in the home was something that hadn't even crossed the most academic of minds, let alone it being an average family household item. I had to go and make my own entertainment, which is probably why I found so much time to practice the violin as well. It seems that children have a finger in every pie these days and while I'm not averse to variety, they also change their mind on what they want to do more times than I've had hot dinners.
Interesting that you don't take on children under 10 unless they have supportive parents musically - I wish the primary school here wouldn't let them start learning an instrument unless their parents are committed to being supportive. In the latest group of 7-8y.o. that started in Sept, 1 child comes from a very unmusical family but practises every day & her mother does her best to be supportive. Another child comes from a musically competent family (piano grade 8, mother, piano & church organist grade 8 ,father) - yet that child almost proudly tells me she has had her violin out once in the entire week!!!
Don't parents understand that most children seem to need encouragement to work at learning to play an instrument.
(Sorry this afternoon was a bad afternoon with that particular child!! )
Don't parents understand that most children seem to need encouragement to work at learning to play an instrument.
(Sorry this afternoon was a bad afternoon with that particular child!! )
| QUOTE |
| Don't parents understand that most children seem to need encouragement to work at learning to play an instrument. (Sorry this afternoon was a bad afternoon with that particular child!! ) |
aaaargh - I sympathise Andy!
You would at least think that parents who are musicians themselves would realise that!
I have started to ask at the first phone enquiry what is available for the child to practise on ........ sometimes there is a nasty silence! One dad asked me a few weeks ago"Why does he need to practise"! With some families it's a very steep learning curve indeed. However there are some families who don't know anything about music and learning to play, but who are willing to support and encourage, (and that can work better sometimes than the knowledgeable parent who puts pressure or helps in the wrong way!)
But almost no practice from the child with the musically competent parents - it's hard to comprehend!
Maggie
Seems like most parents are paying for music lessons so that their children can have something to do after school- different activities everyday. No wonder kids get distracted these days. And learning the violin needs time and patience. It's sad to admit that very few kids are able to excel.
[QUOTE]Supportive parents - yes, the right sort of support is very necessary.
Supportive parents really makes a difference. Unfortunately, there are many of them around. I teach at a music center in Hong Kong and the children are usually picked up by their Philippino care takers after their music lessons. So that means I often don't get a chance to discuss their progress with the parents. I'm not sure if they care anyway. Doing exams seems to be more important than what actually happen in the class.
Anyway, I'm not giving up. I'll keep making it fun for the kids and hope they can at least enjoy their lessons while they are still with me. 
[QUOTE]Supportive parents - yes, the right sort of support is very necessary.
Supportive parents really makes a difference. Unfortunately, there are many of them around. I teach at a music center in Hong Kong and the children are usually picked up by their Philippino care takers after their music lessons. So that means I often don't get a chance to discuss their progress with the parents. I'm not sure if they care anyway. Doing exams seems to be more important than what actually happen in the class.
Anyway, I'm not giving up. I'll keep making it fun for the kids and hope they can at least enjoy their lessons while they are still with me.
| QUOTE (maggiemay @ Apr 27 2005, 02:31 PM) |
| We have not time to stand and stare ?? |
Oh, how I agree! It's the reason everyone seems to be so stressed, overworked and unhappy...
I too find an increasing problem with the commitment of children. They are so used to dropping in and out of different activities when they feel like it that they are becoming unused to sticking at something - or, even more, WORKING at something!
I run a choir at school of over 100 children. When new children express an interest in joining they 'try out' for 3 weeks to see if they like it or not. Then I talk to them and say they have to make a decision - and that if they decide that it is something that they DO want to do, then they must stick to it for the year. They have a letter to take home to that effect.
Well - I have forgotten how many times, a week or two after this letter has gone home, that I say, 'Where's Thomas?' or whoever - and am met with (from a friend) 'Oh, he's quit!'. When I seek out the child and ask what is going on I'm invariably met with a shrug. BAH. I can't tell you how upset and infuriated I get!!!
Having said all this, of course there are loads who come religiously to choir rehearsals for four years and absolutely love it...
| QUOTE |
| But almost no practice from the child with the musically competent parents - it's hard to comprehend |
Hmm - it's probably because the kid kicks up such an enormous fuss every time he's reminded to practise that the parents couldn't take it any more and gave up.
Violinia
I think you're probably right on that one Violinia.
Is some of the problem these days that a lot of parents don't appreciate that a lot of children need active encouragement to get the instrument out - maybe parents think it should be like playing on a computer game (I don't suppose many need to say "Now XX you really need to go & play on that computer game now- it's very important that you practise everyday")!!
I'm thinking of trying to put together a letter to parents at school perhaps stating what I think to be obvious points about practise & parental support & encouragement. I feel that the school knows that this is an issue but possibly don't feel that it's possible to change parental attitudes
I'm in a difficult position - I do this for the school on a voluntary basis (possibly not paid equates to not valued by parents?). I'm getting really stressed by a select number of children (the rest really are trying and are enjoying playing). Some of the children that are stressing me out I also know them & their parents outside school - perhaps that isn't helping in terms of being taken seriously/valued.
Any ideas on what else I can do (apart from taking valium!!)
Is some of the problem these days that a lot of parents don't appreciate that a lot of children need active encouragement to get the instrument out - maybe parents think it should be like playing on a computer game (I don't suppose many need to say "Now XX you really need to go & play on that computer game now- it's very important that you practise everyday")!!
I'm thinking of trying to put together a letter to parents at school perhaps stating what I think to be obvious points about practise & parental support & encouragement. I feel that the school knows that this is an issue but possibly don't feel that it's possible to change parental attitudes
I'm in a difficult position - I do this for the school on a voluntary basis (possibly not paid equates to not valued by parents?). I'm getting really stressed by a select number of children (the rest really are trying and are enjoying playing). Some of the children that are stressing me out I also know them & their parents outside school - perhaps that isn't helping in terms of being taken seriously/valued.
Any ideas on what else I can do (apart from taking valium!!)
| QUOTE (Andy-piano-flute @ Apr 28 2005, 09:22 AM) |
| Some of the children that are stressing me out I also know them & their parents outside school - perhaps that isn't helping in terms of being taken seriously/valued. Any ideas on what else I can do (apart from taking valium!!) |
I'm not a teacher, but I have watched a number of similar discussions to this with interest.
I just wonder why when teachers get so frustrated, they don't just call it a day, take a break, tell the parents you would be happy to see their child again in the future if they feel like lessons plus practise.
Either that or tell the parents you're happy to keep taking their money as long as they realise where their child will be in 6 weeks (same scale), 12 months (same scale), 3 years (same scale) time if they can't be bothered to practise.
| QUOTE |
| But almost no practice from the child with the musically competent parents - it's hard to comprehend! |
I have a pupil whose father is a keen semi-profesional opera singer, and is always apologetic when I ask about practice. The practice record section of the child's record book is never filled in, despite my constantly asking them to do it. She often fails to turn up to lessons (fortnightly, unfortunately - she could really do with weekly) and the response is usually "I didn't know whether it was this week/didn't realise you had started back yet/forgot "etc. They live very near to me and they have my phone number - why don't they check? The family is very busy, and what they say may well be true, but it doesn't suggest a high level of commitment.
Another of my pupils also doesn't practice at all, but he is a very able child, aged 6, who can just pick up where he left off, even after 5 weeks off! I have tried to make the parents understand that he should be much further on than he is now to no avail, and at my last contact with his mother she suggested that perhaps he could come round to my house and practice a few times a week. What a cheek! I think I may take Zoda's advice on this one as I do have a waiting list.
| QUOTE |
| When I was a child, the only extra-curricular lessons I ever did were: ballet for a year or so, piano for a year, violin for 10 years, riding for a couple of years, swimming for a couple of years, judo for a bit - and that was it. There was never more than one activity a week apart from violin. Most days I just came straight home from school (give or take a bit of messing about with friends on the way home)and that was it. (God doesn't this make me sound like a typical middle-class product of the 50's/60's! ) |
My childhood was similar, and I made use of the freedom children had then to go out without adult supervision to school, on cycle rides etc. Most of my activities were centred round after school clubs, Brownies/Guides and church activities and I had plenty of time for piano practice and, of course, homework (though I was never quite so keen on that!). I feel quite sorry for children these days when they have to pack so much into their over-organised lives.
| QUOTE |
| Either that or tell the parents you're happy to keep taking their money as long as they realise where their child will be in 6 weeks (same scale), 12 months (same scale), 3 years (same scale) time if they can't be bothered to practise. |
Yes - I've done similar things at times.
I send out an informal report on progress usually twice a year, which lists what has been done . Bouquets are handed out where appropriate - but it's very useful to look back and look at what has actually been achieved. Sometimes it's an impressive list of work: sometimes it's very little.
If the number of decently completed pieces doesn't amount to more than 2 or 3 a term I point out that we are not really making headway (- unless of course there are mitigating circumstances). If the same two scales have taken six months I say so.
If we get a second report along the same lines I may suggest that as things aren't improving we call it a day! It is handy to be able to show that you're not making a hasty judgement, but one based on several months of downhill slide.
Maggie
Although I hate to admit it, I had 8 years of piano lessons and 4 years of clarinet lessons without touching the instruments at all between lessons .I thought it made it worse coming from a musical family as there were more people around to criticize rather than appreciate my meagre efforts. The only event that made me practice was when I failed my grade 8 clarinet.
Now I am teaching, I have used my bitter experience on a couple of my pupils. In my experience it is usually the clever pupils who dont pracitice and have always succeeded at everything they do - passing with flying colours. I know it seems horrible - but it does seem to shake the parents up a bit - and in both cases this has happened, the children practiced improved a lot.
Now I live in a remote place, local children are thankful for lessons, and practice a lot even without being asked BLISSS!!!!
Now I am teaching, I have used my bitter experience on a couple of my pupils. In my experience it is usually the clever pupils who dont pracitice and have always succeeded at everything they do - passing with flying colours. I know it seems horrible - but it does seem to shake the parents up a bit - and in both cases this has happened, the children practiced improved a lot.
Now I live in a remote place, local children are thankful for lessons, and practice a lot even without being asked BLISSS!!!!
I think that some of the reason for finding children not practising now is that most activities (I'm thinking mainly of sports here) have some recreational groups for people that only want to do it once a week for an hour, or half an hour, or whatever and have a seperate group, picked out from the recreational group who have been noticed to be dedicated and talented to pursue the activity more seriously. It's not a problem that people aren't dedicated to music specifically; just that a small number of people are dedicated to any given thing and in most other pursuits these are the people selected for intensive tuition.
If I take gymnastics as an example (purely because I have experience of it) people can do it for one hour a week recreationally or can do up to 3 hours a day if they want to be serious competitors (probably 10 hours a week in the gym would have to be done before anyone can do anything like the equivilant of grades on an instrument).
I've heard the line "you have to practise at home or you won't improve; if you were having piano lessons you wouldn't expect to go home and not practise, you can't do that here either" used so many times in gymnastics coaching (if I ever hear it now I think of this forum and chuckle to myself). This has been said to children who are already doing 11 hours a week of training in the gym (not a half hour lesson...); this isn't unreasonable indeed it's true to progress faster one has to work harder. Obviously in a sport it is harder to practise at home because of the large equipment needed but there are still a lot of things that can, and need to, be done in order to succeed. The people in the recreational class can't compete at a serious level without first being promoted into the club (this will require hard work at home but is possible) it's just not possible to compete seriously with only one hour a week: but if that's all they want to do and don't practise at home then they are allowed to continue coming to that class for as long as they want and just enjoying the sport for fun.
Gymnastics is very much like music in the sense that with only one hour a week people will not progress very much at all yet people come to recreational classes and will stay in them for 5 years or more (there are also quite a few that come and leave before one year but there's always a long waiting list that exists because people don't leave very quickly) without making a great deal of progress (they make some but I would liken it to what would happen if someone went to piano lessons but didn't practise). They do it because they enjoy it and not everyone has to be pushed to be a competitor and to actually make any fast progress unless they are promoted into the club (a privilage which, of course, anyone can decline if they so wish, although I've never known anyone to do so as they're not promoted unless they're keen). There are badges and awards that are simple enough to be approached by people at this level, yet not so simple that an average person could achieve the higher awards without participating for a while; there are also competitions for people to compete against others at the same level as them. There seems to be no recreational element to music (if someone isn't practising their teacher doesn't want to teach them (not that I blame teachers for this, I would feel the same...)), no one seems to teach it just for the sake of having a lot of children doing it to select those who want to progress further, which may be one reason that it's struggling to compete with all of these other activities which children now seem to be doing recreationally for one hour a week or whatever (generally if it's one night this, the next night something else etc. it's recreational everything). Every single child starting music lessons seems to be put on the same learning trail as someone who would want to study their instrument at music college, which is not necessarily right for all children. Whereas elsewhere it seems like the model has shifted from children doing one or two things seriously (I've known someone who was doing 10 hours a week gymnastics and reached grade 8 piano and violin in year 9...); to doing one different activity every night, thus avoiding any hard work or commitment in any.
This is possibly why music doesn't fit the mould: with this system presented to them children may well expect that music is like their other activities one hour a week for fun and that's it. So where is the recreational music? Why do all children have to progress in standards and do grades and so on? What about learning lots of pieces at a low/the same standard for one hour a week or half an hour or whatever and then not practising just enjoying being at the level they're at and progressing slowly, it happens in sports but not in music. Those who want to practise at home will and can be selected to then take it more seriously. Of course there is the difficulty that it may bore the teacher as they want to teach people who wish to progress (this is the problem too with recreational sports classes and sports coaches, most people naturally want to teach those who are keen to progress and to a lesser extent those that are good at what they are doing), it's the one to one nature of music tuition that makes it hard for large numbers of people to join in and allow the ones that enjoy it more and want to take it to a higher level to be selected and those that just wish to do it for fun once a week to be allowed to do this.
To draw a parallel with sports a logical suggestion could be something like this (hard to do with piano as it's difficult to get several in one room, perhaps pianists could start on keyboards?): teachers take one day out of their week or one hour out of each day (as sports coaches do) to run group lessons for people to start learning an instrument; groups should be as large as reasonably thought possible by the teacher (to have fun not necessarily to make great progress). Then these children have a half hour group lesson and there is also once a week an ensemble meet up where everyone plays the pieces they`ve been learning together with their friends (having friends there is a good reason for children to stick at an activity) and that's all that they have to do. So they have to have pieces that they are capable of learning just during the lesson maybe when they first start that could be one note pizzacato on an open string in time with a conductor, anything so that they can join in with at least some of the pieces. People will then progress to a limited extent and be able to play slightly more complex things maybe even grade 1 pieces after a few years. But as long as they're enjoying it does it matter if they progress? They're doing an hour a week of music and enjoying it; if a child is given a new piece do they know if it's an easier or harder one? Probably not. Then the rest of the teacher's weekly individual slots will be filled by people who have been seen to practise at home (as in sports children are all told that if they want to get better they need to practise at home but are not told off for not practising) during these sessions and are the usual traditional individual music lessons going for exams or progress and so on with emphasis on work and fun. So the teacher looses a few hours of lesson time a week but gains the rest of the week with keener pupils (although they don't loose money as they charge for the group lessons, in fact recreational sport often slightly subsidises cheaper sessions for those who are doing more hours a week so that it doesn't become too expensive).
I'm not an instrumental teacher so I will admit that I can't really anticipate how these sessions would go: maybe two or more ensemble sessions based on ability would be needed, and I'm sure that many people will tell me it's not feasible to get the people to play together well at all, I can't refute that obviously; one thing I would say though is that the aim is to try to forget about how well people are playing and convert it just for that session to whether they're having fun and to notice who is improving. Maybe Cyrilla could make it work, even if everyone started on singing. If anyone could get this to work I think it would be very positive, both for them as a teacher (as they would have only the more dedicated pupils who want to learn in their individual slots) and for the community as a whole (as they would be allowing many more people to participate in music just for fun, who would otherwise not have had the chance either because of financial reasons or constraints on teachers' time, or simply because they want to do it a little for fun and that's all). I can tell you now that there are a lot more recreational gymnasts in this country than there are club level ones but most of coaches' time is spent coaching club level gymnasts who want to train hard: everyone's happy, those who want to train can and those who want to have fun can come and have fun and the coaches get to spend the majority of their time with the people that want to learn.
My apologies for this hideously long post, especially in the teachers' forum as I'm not a teacher; I just thought it was an interesting parallel to draw, and highlights the problems of trying to get people involved in music. Maybe the problem with music is that everyone is expected to take it seriously (in terms of time invested); rather than some doing it for fun; if the same was true for other activities there would be far fewer people partaking in those too.
If I take gymnastics as an example (purely because I have experience of it) people can do it for one hour a week recreationally or can do up to 3 hours a day if they want to be serious competitors (probably 10 hours a week in the gym would have to be done before anyone can do anything like the equivilant of grades on an instrument).
I've heard the line "you have to practise at home or you won't improve; if you were having piano lessons you wouldn't expect to go home and not practise, you can't do that here either" used so many times in gymnastics coaching (if I ever hear it now I think of this forum and chuckle to myself). This has been said to children who are already doing 11 hours a week of training in the gym (not a half hour lesson...); this isn't unreasonable indeed it's true to progress faster one has to work harder. Obviously in a sport it is harder to practise at home because of the large equipment needed but there are still a lot of things that can, and need to, be done in order to succeed. The people in the recreational class can't compete at a serious level without first being promoted into the club (this will require hard work at home but is possible) it's just not possible to compete seriously with only one hour a week: but if that's all they want to do and don't practise at home then they are allowed to continue coming to that class for as long as they want and just enjoying the sport for fun.
Gymnastics is very much like music in the sense that with only one hour a week people will not progress very much at all yet people come to recreational classes and will stay in them for 5 years or more (there are also quite a few that come and leave before one year but there's always a long waiting list that exists because people don't leave very quickly) without making a great deal of progress (they make some but I would liken it to what would happen if someone went to piano lessons but didn't practise). They do it because they enjoy it and not everyone has to be pushed to be a competitor and to actually make any fast progress unless they are promoted into the club (a privilage which, of course, anyone can decline if they so wish, although I've never known anyone to do so as they're not promoted unless they're keen). There are badges and awards that are simple enough to be approached by people at this level, yet not so simple that an average person could achieve the higher awards without participating for a while; there are also competitions for people to compete against others at the same level as them. There seems to be no recreational element to music (if someone isn't practising their teacher doesn't want to teach them (not that I blame teachers for this, I would feel the same...)), no one seems to teach it just for the sake of having a lot of children doing it to select those who want to progress further, which may be one reason that it's struggling to compete with all of these other activities which children now seem to be doing recreationally for one hour a week or whatever (generally if it's one night this, the next night something else etc. it's recreational everything). Every single child starting music lessons seems to be put on the same learning trail as someone who would want to study their instrument at music college, which is not necessarily right for all children. Whereas elsewhere it seems like the model has shifted from children doing one or two things seriously (I've known someone who was doing 10 hours a week gymnastics and reached grade 8 piano and violin in year 9...); to doing one different activity every night, thus avoiding any hard work or commitment in any.
This is possibly why music doesn't fit the mould: with this system presented to them children may well expect that music is like their other activities one hour a week for fun and that's it. So where is the recreational music? Why do all children have to progress in standards and do grades and so on? What about learning lots of pieces at a low/the same standard for one hour a week or half an hour or whatever and then not practising just enjoying being at the level they're at and progressing slowly, it happens in sports but not in music. Those who want to practise at home will and can be selected to then take it more seriously. Of course there is the difficulty that it may bore the teacher as they want to teach people who wish to progress (this is the problem too with recreational sports classes and sports coaches, most people naturally want to teach those who are keen to progress and to a lesser extent those that are good at what they are doing), it's the one to one nature of music tuition that makes it hard for large numbers of people to join in and allow the ones that enjoy it more and want to take it to a higher level to be selected and those that just wish to do it for fun once a week to be allowed to do this.
To draw a parallel with sports a logical suggestion could be something like this (hard to do with piano as it's difficult to get several in one room, perhaps pianists could start on keyboards?): teachers take one day out of their week or one hour out of each day (as sports coaches do) to run group lessons for people to start learning an instrument; groups should be as large as reasonably thought possible by the teacher (to have fun not necessarily to make great progress). Then these children have a half hour group lesson and there is also once a week an ensemble meet up where everyone plays the pieces they`ve been learning together with their friends (having friends there is a good reason for children to stick at an activity) and that's all that they have to do. So they have to have pieces that they are capable of learning just during the lesson maybe when they first start that could be one note pizzacato on an open string in time with a conductor, anything so that they can join in with at least some of the pieces. People will then progress to a limited extent and be able to play slightly more complex things maybe even grade 1 pieces after a few years. But as long as they're enjoying it does it matter if they progress? They're doing an hour a week of music and enjoying it; if a child is given a new piece do they know if it's an easier or harder one? Probably not. Then the rest of the teacher's weekly individual slots will be filled by people who have been seen to practise at home (as in sports children are all told that if they want to get better they need to practise at home but are not told off for not practising) during these sessions and are the usual traditional individual music lessons going for exams or progress and so on with emphasis on work and fun. So the teacher looses a few hours of lesson time a week but gains the rest of the week with keener pupils (although they don't loose money as they charge for the group lessons, in fact recreational sport often slightly subsidises cheaper sessions for those who are doing more hours a week so that it doesn't become too expensive).
I'm not an instrumental teacher so I will admit that I can't really anticipate how these sessions would go: maybe two or more ensemble sessions based on ability would be needed, and I'm sure that many people will tell me it's not feasible to get the people to play together well at all, I can't refute that obviously; one thing I would say though is that the aim is to try to forget about how well people are playing and convert it just for that session to whether they're having fun and to notice who is improving. Maybe Cyrilla could make it work, even if everyone started on singing. If anyone could get this to work I think it would be very positive, both for them as a teacher (as they would have only the more dedicated pupils who want to learn in their individual slots) and for the community as a whole (as they would be allowing many more people to participate in music just for fun, who would otherwise not have had the chance either because of financial reasons or constraints on teachers' time, or simply because they want to do it a little for fun and that's all). I can tell you now that there are a lot more recreational gymnasts in this country than there are club level ones but most of coaches' time is spent coaching club level gymnasts who want to train hard: everyone's happy, those who want to train can and those who want to have fun can come and have fun and the coaches get to spend the majority of their time with the people that want to learn.
My apologies for this hideously long post, especially in the teachers' forum as I'm not a teacher; I just thought it was an interesting parallel to draw, and highlights the problems of trying to get people involved in music. Maybe the problem with music is that everyone is expected to take it seriously (in terms of time invested); rather than some doing it for fun; if the same was true for other activities there would be far fewer people partaking in those too.
An interesting suggestion, and a lot of good points AP. I was thinking of the social aspect of some of your parallels as I read through, and I do think that's something that is often missing with one-to-one music lessons.
I tried something very much like you are outlining a couple of years ago. I had a waiting list of about 8 at the time and was anxious to find a way to get some of them started.
I put together a group of 5 aged 6 to 8, thinking that anyone who worked well and took off could be next in line for an individual slot and those who enjoyed the group and were content to pootle along could do just that.
No-one really did any practice. Two left suddenly at the end of the first term because they had been on the waiting list for lessons at school (but no-one had mentioned this of course!). Another one discontinued because the journey was too awkward. A fourth played fast and loose with the booking and lasted only half a term. The fifth had tried and had some potential, so I offered her an individual lesson after one term - unfortunately family problems meant she gave up soon after.
I had the feeling that group lessons were taken less seriously by the families than were the other individual lessons that I teach (on the whole). Maybe this was coincidence, or maybe I was unlucky with this particular group, but I've not been terribly keen to try it again !
I have run other groups in the past which have worked much better. Some of this latest group were very slow indeed, but I have wondered whether having lower expectations was actually working against the success of the group as a whole.
Maggie
I tried something very much like you are outlining a couple of years ago. I had a waiting list of about 8 at the time and was anxious to find a way to get some of them started.
I put together a group of 5 aged 6 to 8, thinking that anyone who worked well and took off could be next in line for an individual slot and those who enjoyed the group and were content to pootle along could do just that.
No-one really did any practice. Two left suddenly at the end of the first term because they had been on the waiting list for lessons at school (but no-one had mentioned this of course!). Another one discontinued because the journey was too awkward. A fourth played fast and loose with the booking and lasted only half a term. The fifth had tried and had some potential, so I offered her an individual lesson after one term - unfortunately family problems meant she gave up soon after.
I had the feeling that group lessons were taken less seriously by the families than were the other individual lessons that I teach (on the whole). Maybe this was coincidence, or maybe I was unlucky with this particular group, but I've not been terribly keen to try it again !
I have run other groups in the past which have worked much better. Some of this latest group were very slow indeed, but I have wondered whether having lower expectations was actually working against the success of the group as a whole.
Maggie
[small edit]
Anotherpianist your post has got me re-thinking one of the few things I thought I had "sorted" in my head! I had been assuming a fundamental distinction between sport and music which admittedly I had only skatingly thought through. I used to play rugby once a week, and I loved it, as long as we played against other teams of about our level. More than a couple of times I have bumped into adults from serious rugby areas who loved playing rugby at a fun level, but said they gave up at about 15 when it became about training 5 times a week to smash the opposition or get smashed, and all the fun went out of it, particularly during periods of traction. The main advantage of being good at sport seemed to me to be practical rather than innate; If you're not as good as those around you, either you're on the bench or you get the rubbish teacher and the leftover pupils to play with. But if you are good enough to get into the team, and to give your opponents a good game, the enjoyment you get is not necessarily linked to the level at which you are playing.
With music, on the other hand, there does seem to me to be an increase in the amount of enjoyment to be had, the better you get. I can see a difference between the rugby coach who enjoys seeing his kids running around scoring tries each week with no "practise" in between, and the violin teacher who has to listen to the same tortuous efforts - waiting for the next out of tune scratchy note to be squeezed out each week. The rugby coach can see the benefits for his kids - it's sociable, it's teamwork, it's getting people fit, it's using motor skills, and it probably fits in to a rich tapestry of swimming, running, playing and other sports that the children might also do during the week. There do seem to be some non progressing instrumental lessons which provide no such obvious benefit for child or teacher - indeed in some cases they may actually lead to the child having a dislike for music.
Because of the above thoughts, I have to admit to having ordered my priorities slightly differently in respect of sport and music for the children. With sport, I would like them to have fun playing lots of sport at whatever level it takes them to. I wouldn't discourage regular training if that's what they want to do, but it just doesn't seem to be the be all and end all. With music, I would like them to get to a level whereby they, their teachers and others can enjoy the sound of their playing, and whereby they have sufficient skill to play, for instance, in an enjoyable orchestra. In that instance, I do feel it is more likely to be achieved by a certain amount of practise.
Lurking in the back of my mind has always been the question of whether I should value a more competitive attitude to sport, to avoid my children becoming airy fairy musos who are basically rubbish at sport and don't like it - so I'm now reconsidering the parallels you flag up between sport and music and wondering what I can learn from them. Thanks for your post!
Anotherpianist your post has got me re-thinking one of the few things I thought I had "sorted" in my head! I had been assuming a fundamental distinction between sport and music which admittedly I had only skatingly thought through. I used to play rugby once a week, and I loved it, as long as we played against other teams of about our level. More than a couple of times I have bumped into adults from serious rugby areas who loved playing rugby at a fun level, but said they gave up at about 15 when it became about training 5 times a week to smash the opposition or get smashed, and all the fun went out of it, particularly during periods of traction. The main advantage of being good at sport seemed to me to be practical rather than innate; If you're not as good as those around you, either you're on the bench or you get the rubbish teacher and the leftover pupils to play with. But if you are good enough to get into the team, and to give your opponents a good game, the enjoyment you get is not necessarily linked to the level at which you are playing.
With music, on the other hand, there does seem to me to be an increase in the amount of enjoyment to be had, the better you get. I can see a difference between the rugby coach who enjoys seeing his kids running around scoring tries each week with no "practise" in between, and the violin teacher who has to listen to the same tortuous efforts - waiting for the next out of tune scratchy note to be squeezed out each week. The rugby coach can see the benefits for his kids - it's sociable, it's teamwork, it's getting people fit, it's using motor skills, and it probably fits in to a rich tapestry of swimming, running, playing and other sports that the children might also do during the week. There do seem to be some non progressing instrumental lessons which provide no such obvious benefit for child or teacher - indeed in some cases they may actually lead to the child having a dislike for music.
Because of the above thoughts, I have to admit to having ordered my priorities slightly differently in respect of sport and music for the children. With sport, I would like them to have fun playing lots of sport at whatever level it takes them to. I wouldn't discourage regular training if that's what they want to do, but it just doesn't seem to be the be all and end all. With music, I would like them to get to a level whereby they, their teachers and others can enjoy the sound of their playing, and whereby they have sufficient skill to play, for instance, in an enjoyable orchestra. In that instance, I do feel it is more likely to be achieved by a certain amount of practise.
Lurking in the back of my mind has always been the question of whether I should value a more competitive attitude to sport, to avoid my children becoming airy fairy musos who are basically rubbish at sport and don't like it - so I'm now reconsidering the parallels you flag up between sport and music and wondering what I can learn from them. Thanks for your post!
| QUOTE |
| Either that or tell the parents you're happy to keep taking their money as long as they realise where their child will be in 6 weeks (same scale), 12 months (same scale), 3 years (same scale) time if they can't be bothered to practise. |
Been there, done that with more than one student. The last of the batch finally decided to quit at Easter. I found it demoralising to try and teach students who either won't practice or just don't have the drive to try and improve their playing. I know the glass ceiling scenario often kicks in around Grade 5 practical, but most students at that stage are of an age where they shouldn't need to be hounded by their parents in order to practice.
I'm always diplomatic, if not rather wary about how I tell a parent their child is either not musical or needs to do a lot more practice. There's a very fine line between being honest and being blunt. Sometimes the latter is the only way to get through, but only as a last resort.
I have never understood why anyone would want to learn an instrument if not to improve *at least somewhat*.
I think there is always a distinction to be made between those who have a passion for music and want to get good, and those who just want to play for pleasure... however, playing music badly, and never improving, well, it *isn't* fun. Even if one stays at a similar level, each piece will require a certain amount of work to get to a standard where it is fun to play. Even if that is ten or 20 minutes *per week*, if the child (or adult) is playing pieces that they can *almost* sight read, then one is going to need SOME work to actually play the piece in a way that's enjoyable to the player, never mind the listener! It does depend on the instrument as well as the player - some instruments are relatively easy to make a nice sound on, others very very hard. I agree that one should be able to play music as recreation... I do think that to actually be able to enjoy the music, some practice is required; if the only time a child plays is in the lesson, the progress will be painfully slow and, particularly with the absolute beginner music, that is going to get painful/dull/frustrating for the teacher and pupil very quickly, unless both have almost saintly amounts of patience....
Orchestras and ensembles can help with the enjoyment/social side of things: if you are at the back of 2nd violins, it doesn't matter so much if you can't hit every single note.
I had group lessons in violin for most of my schooling, ranging from a group of maybe a dozen down to a shared lesson of 30 minutes. It is possible, though it isn't the easiest for either pupil or teacher.
I do think that with pratically anything, a certain level of ability/skill (and the work to get there) is necessary to actually be able to enjoy it. I don't know anyone, adult or child, who'd truly enjoy staying at the same level on and instrument year after year, and struggling even to master simple pieces... Simple pieces CAN be enjoyable (I remember some very fun pieces we used to play on the violin that were mostly pizz, and open and first finger notes only) but usually because of both a good and enthusiastic teacher, and a complex piano part that creates the backdrop for the simpler solo part and makes it sound cool... the pieces we did sounded great with the piano, but even to a 7 year old, pretty naff without it. And I think even the least able in the group would've got frustrated with doing pieces at that level for more than a few months....
Anyway I am rambling here really... but I do think for anything, a certain level of ability is required before it really becomes enjoyable... I enjoy badminton and tennis, being pretty rubbish at both, but I can hit a ball of a shuttlecock. It wouldn't be fun at all if one's hand eye coordination or fitness level precluded hitting the ball EVER or being able to move across court to have a chance at hitting it. Gymnnastics can be fun from a very simple level, but if you can't touch your knees, never mind your toes, and balance is something that happens to other people, then there will be a certain amount of grin-and-bear-ing it until it really becomes something that's actually fun to do. Ditto learning an instrument - particularly a first instrument, when you often don't read music and have no idea what you're aiming for never mind how to get there. Squeaks and squawks are almost bound to happen: very few people manage a truly lovely note out of any instrument the first time they play... and to enjoy playing at even the simplest level is going to require some time and effort except for the absolute musical prodigy. It's one thing that bugs me slightly about people who don't do any practice, or avoid technique/scales, because "they only want to play for fun" - it's all very well, but the point of even a minor bit of technical fluency is that playing *anything* becomes easier and more fun. And very few people can get to the fun stage of playing without a little hard work...
I think there is always a distinction to be made between those who have a passion for music and want to get good, and those who just want to play for pleasure... however, playing music badly, and never improving, well, it *isn't* fun. Even if one stays at a similar level, each piece will require a certain amount of work to get to a standard where it is fun to play. Even if that is ten or 20 minutes *per week*, if the child (or adult) is playing pieces that they can *almost* sight read, then one is going to need SOME work to actually play the piece in a way that's enjoyable to the player, never mind the listener! It does depend on the instrument as well as the player - some instruments are relatively easy to make a nice sound on, others very very hard. I agree that one should be able to play music as recreation... I do think that to actually be able to enjoy the music, some practice is required; if the only time a child plays is in the lesson, the progress will be painfully slow and, particularly with the absolute beginner music, that is going to get painful/dull/frustrating for the teacher and pupil very quickly, unless both have almost saintly amounts of patience....
Orchestras and ensembles can help with the enjoyment/social side of things: if you are at the back of 2nd violins, it doesn't matter so much if you can't hit every single note.
I had group lessons in violin for most of my schooling, ranging from a group of maybe a dozen down to a shared lesson of 30 minutes. It is possible, though it isn't the easiest for either pupil or teacher.
I do think that with pratically anything, a certain level of ability/skill (and the work to get there) is necessary to actually be able to enjoy it. I don't know anyone, adult or child, who'd truly enjoy staying at the same level on and instrument year after year, and struggling even to master simple pieces... Simple pieces CAN be enjoyable (I remember some very fun pieces we used to play on the violin that were mostly pizz, and open and first finger notes only) but usually because of both a good and enthusiastic teacher, and a complex piano part that creates the backdrop for the simpler solo part and makes it sound cool... the pieces we did sounded great with the piano, but even to a 7 year old, pretty naff without it. And I think even the least able in the group would've got frustrated with doing pieces at that level for more than a few months....
Anyway I am rambling here really... but I do think for anything, a certain level of ability is required before it really becomes enjoyable... I enjoy badminton and tennis, being pretty rubbish at both, but I can hit a ball of a shuttlecock. It wouldn't be fun at all if one's hand eye coordination or fitness level precluded hitting the ball EVER or being able to move across court to have a chance at hitting it. Gymnnastics can be fun from a very simple level, but if you can't touch your knees, never mind your toes, and balance is something that happens to other people, then there will be a certain amount of grin-and-bear-ing it until it really becomes something that's actually fun to do. Ditto learning an instrument - particularly a first instrument, when you often don't read music and have no idea what you're aiming for never mind how to get there. Squeaks and squawks are almost bound to happen: very few people manage a truly lovely note out of any instrument the first time they play... and to enjoy playing at even the simplest level is going to require some time and effort except for the absolute musical prodigy. It's one thing that bugs me slightly about people who don't do any practice, or avoid technique/scales, because "they only want to play for fun" - it's all very well, but the point of even a minor bit of technical fluency is that playing *anything* becomes easier and more fun. And very few people can get to the fun stage of playing without a little hard work...
| QUOTE |
| I'm always diplomatic, if not rather wary about how I tell a parent their child is either not musical or needs to do a lot more practice. There's a very fine line between being honest and being blunt. Sometimes the latter is the only way to get through, but only as a last resort. |
I don't think you should ever, ever tell a child, or the parent of that child, that he or she "isn't musical".
The simple fact is that we're all born musical, and some of us are lucky enough to have that musicality fostered. Some of us are also unfortunate enough to have our unfostered musicality crushed for life by a well-meaning but ultimately cruel person who tells us we're "not musical".
I've seen the results of this in adults who swear they are "tone-deaf", and it usually turns out it's because somebody once shouted at them for singing out of tune and told them they were musically useless. They took this on board and became unmusical, often for life - or until somebody helped them to unlock that crushed potential many years later.
If we don't have it in us to find the right way to approach an apparently unmusical child, then we should at least find them a teacher who can help them, before abandoning them ourselves.
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| The simple fact is that we're all born musical, and some of us are lucky enough to have that musicality fostered. Some of us are also unfortunate enough to have our unfostered musicality crushed for life by a well-meaning but ultimately cruel person who tells us we're "not musical". |
No disrespects to what you have written, but I don't think the way I handle any of my students has been cruel. I simply present the facts to the parents (who are paying for the lessons) and let them make their own decision,....unlike a 19 year old student I know of at the RCM who failed her second-year exams on the violin, primarily on her scales. When she went to her professor and asked for some advice, he told her, "Give up!"
Much of our musicality is linked to feeling naturally interested and drawn to musical sounds at an early age, rather than it being something that can simply fostered in anyone. My mother has no natural musical inclinations or interests at all, and yet her mother was a fine pianist.
I'm still a great believer in people having a natural leaning towards a particular skill - be it music, art/drawing, maths, acting, languages etc.. Sadly there are people who would not succeed even with an entire lifetime of training or careful sympathetic teaching. We have to face the fact that we are not all cut out to do the same thing or indeed have the same strengths in all abilities. If there is a natural ability in a particular area, then that is the ability to cultivate, not one that you have no natural interest in or will leave you constantly struggling with the fundamentals all your life.
| QUOTE |
| If we don't have it in us to find the right way to approach an apparently unmusical child, then we should at least find them a teacher who can help them, before abandoning them ourselves. |
I have every respect for what you are saying, but when the pupil herself phones an hour before her first lesson of the new term and says she won't be carrying on, then there is nothing you can do. I tried for 3 years to help her, using all manner of different approaches. I am an incredibly patient person, but after 3 years even I was beginning to wonder if I was just banging my head on a wall. Sadly, she had hit the Grade 5 glass ceiling and was never destined to get any further, no matter how much tuition she had. Ultimately, one does have to consider the person who is paying out for these lessons while not hearing any improvement in the pupils playing.
One final example, there are people who spend tens of thousands of pounds on driving lessons, and still don't get to grips with it. Is the answer to this that they should just keep changing their instructor?? Or is it that the required co-ordination skills between hands, eyes and feet are just not there.
Just a short point to make: many parents seem to think that if they are paying for music lessons, then they shouldn't have to do anything else for their child to become a good player or pass exams. Last week I had to tell a parent that her daughter was not making enough progress as she herself had admitted that she did not get the instrument out between lessons at all. I said that unless she did do some practice then I would be unhappy about entering her for Grade 5 this time round as she would simply not be well enough prepared or have the necessary stamina to play three pieces, scales etc to the appropriate standard. The parent's response? Shouting (in the street!) that she paid me to prepare her child for exams, that she'd already spent a fortune on these lessons, and so on. So many people (students and parents) seem unable to comprehend the difference between practice and lessons, and seem to think that having a weekly lesson somehow renders practice unnecessary.
| QUOTE (Violinia @ Apr 27 2005, 02:01 PM) |
| (God doesn't this make me sound like a typical middle-class product of the 50's/60's! ) |
No, because that's what I do now and I'm only 14! Having said that, I used to do Guides + Orchestra in the same week. I had to give guides up though due to far more music work at school like composition.
| QUOTE (AmandaL @ Apr 30 2005, 04:54 PM) | ||||
No disrespects to what you have written, but I don't think the way I handle any of my students has been cruel. I simply present the facts to the parents (who are paying for the lessons) and let them make their own decision,....unlike a 19 year old student I know of at the RCM who failed her second-year exams on the violin, primarily on her scales. When she went to her professor and asked for some advice, he told her, "Give up!" Much of our musicality is linked to feeling naturally interested and drawn to musical sounds at an early age, rather than it being something that can simply fostered in anyone. My mother has no natural musical inclinations or interests at all, and yet her mother was a fine pianist. I'm still a great believer in people having a natural leaning towards a particular skill - be it music, art/drawing, maths, acting, languages etc.. Sadly there are people who would not succeed even with an entire lifetime of training or careful sympathetic teaching. We have to face the fact that we are not all cut out to do the same thing or indeed have the same strengths in all abilities. If there is a natural ability in a particular area, then that is the ability to cultivate, not one that you have no natural interest in or will leave you constantly struggling with the fundamentals all your life.
I have every respect for what you are saying, but when the pupil herself phones an hour before her first lesson of the new term and says she won't be carrying on, then there is nothing you can do. I tried for 3 years to help her, using all manner of different approaches. I am an incredibly patient person, but after 3 years even I was beginning to wonder if I was just banging my head on a wall. Sadly, she had hit the Grade 5 glass ceiling and was never destined to get any further, no matter how much tuition she had. Ultimately, one does have to consider the person who is paying out for these lessons while not hearing any improvement in the pupils playing. One final example, there are people who spend tens of thousands of pounds on driving lessons, and still don't get to grips with it. Is the answer to this that they should just keep changing their instructor?? Or is it that the required co-ordination skills between hands, eyes and feet are just not there. |
Sorry Amanda L - I only said all that because I thought you were implying you'd actually tell the parents their child "isn't musical". I do appreciate what you're saying and go through similar stuff myself.... and yes, some people just aren't going to find much pleasure in music-making after all. However, when you think about certain primitive cultures where every single person develops some facility in music-making, it does make you wonder if our approach is the best way..
But in the end we live in the world we live in as you say. I just feel sad when a pupil drops out and gives up - the enthusiasm must have been there in the beginning after all....
Life gets in the way, unsupportive parents get in the way, competing demands get in the way, etc etc..
But what about the research about untalented people + lots of practice making great musicians? For untalented read "unmusical", perhaps....
Surely the right teacher can bring out the potential in almost any student? But perhaps the "untalented" need the right teacher plus inordinately supportive parents in order to succeed, and these days there's just too few parents willing to put in the care and attention in the early days to make it work.
Violinia
Absolutely! Children need proper support and encouragement from their parents. I had a child do grade 2 piano in December. When I phoned the house to tell them the exam date his dad hadn't a clue who I was and seemed puzzled when I told him his son was doing a piano exam. 'A what exam?' he asked. 'Can he play the piano?' Unbelievable! 
| QUOTE (noodle @ May 2 2005, 10:41 PM) |
| Absolutely! Children need proper support and encouragement from their parents. I had a child do grade 2 piano in December. When I phoned the house to tell them the exam date his dad hadn't a clue who I was and seemed puzzled when I told him his son was doing a piano exam. 'A what exam?' he asked. 'Can he play the piano?' Unbelievable! :unsure: |
Occasionally you'll get a kid who wants to keep their playing secret from one of their parents because they want to surprise them with it when they can play well. Obviously the other parent has to be in on it because somebody's paying!
However, if it's not that, then - aarrghh!! No wonder so many kids just aren't making progress on their instruments these days.
I often ask my pupils if their parents have commented their playing (after they'd played particularly well in a lesson). Almost invariably the kid'll say "they haven't heard me" or "they haven't said anything." This always makes me feel a bit sad.
Today, though, I asked one girl whose playing has really improved over the last year, and she said "my mum says at least I'm not making that awful racket I used to make".
Perhaps we as teachers should be making it a lot clearer to the parents that it's a real commitment that takes daily or almost daily practice, and that parents should be on hand to remind the kid to practise and make favourable comments/praise/encourage them when they play something at all well.
The parent doesn't have to be particularly musical to do all this - just take a bit of an interest, that's all.
I think I'm going to write letters home to all my school students re this.
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| kid'll say "they haven't heard me" or "they haven't said anything." This always makes me feel a bit sad. |
My own reponse would have been something like that too (and still is if I am asked whether my husband commented on anything I did well).
The thing is that I didn't, and don't expect it.
My parents (and now my husband) are not unsupportive, it's just that they don't feel the same way about how I play as i do.
It is a personal thing..... sort of like my territory I suppose......
So if someone asks what they think them my repsonse really is.... 'Why?!'
| QUOTE (sbhoa @ May 3 2005, 12:47 PM) | ||
My own reponse would have been something like that too (and still is if I am asked whether my husband commented on anything I did well). The thing is that I didn't, and don't expect it. My parents (and now my husband) are not unsupportive, it's just that they don't feel the same way about how I play as i do. It is a personal thing..... sort of like my territory I suppose...... So if someone asks what they think them my repsonse really is.... 'Why?!' |
You didn't and don't expect it...
As an adult, fine, but surely a child needs encouragement from their parents when learning an instrument...?
It's a rare child indeed who is able to soldier on towards success without amy interest or comment from anybody at home. If you managed it, I take my hat off to you!
Violinia
| QUOTE (Violinia @ May 2 2005, 10:11 PM) |
| However, when you think about certain primitive cultures where every single person develops some facility in music-making, it does make you wonder if our approach is the best way.. But what about the research about untalented people + lots of practice making great musicians? For untalented read "unmusical", perhaps....Surely the right teacher can bring out the potential in almost any student? But perhaps the "untalented" need the right teacher plus inordinately supportive parents in order to succeed |
I think that although there's an awful lot of truth in this, there are people who are simply more musical than others - though I definitely think that most people are far more musical than they think they are! There are too many examples of people thriving and getting good despite bad teachers, or not getting on so well despite good ones (I've known examples of both) - there must be some reason for that. Ideally, you want a hugely naturally talented child who's prepared to work hard, a great teacher, supportive parents... but I do think there's something in the "hugely naturally talented" that will never be completely balanced out in those less musically inclined by lots of hard work and great support. I do wish that all children could have the opportunity and support they need to get some sort of musical training - not necessarily instrumental - I have no doubt that musical standards at all levels would rise dramatically, as would the average individual's enjoyment of music and ability to participate in musical things.
sorry for crashing a teacher forum but my freind (well not freind exactly) just quit cello and she never practised i wrote out a list of notes and note values for her told her she could borrow my book and she said fine so i said lets pratise now and she said i asked her why and she said i only practice in school i asked her why and she said because i can miss lessons wich pretty much sums her up and it made me mad because was trying to help my teacher said that i would progress faster npw shes gone and that he was happy to see her go
All of these concerns has shown that u teachers are doing a great job out there... we would never get prefect student or parents all the time.
To keep the cash coming in for supporting ourself, the only choice is to make the student at least...
"24 pieces Grade 8 holder" (3 pieces per year X 8) if possible....
OR if u r too frustrated & cant take it anymore...dismiss the student.
To keep the cash coming in for supporting ourself, the only choice is to make the student at least...
"24 pieces Grade 8 holder" (3 pieces per year X 8) if possible....
OR if u r too frustrated & cant take it anymore...dismiss the student.
Years ago, I took on two sisters for piano lessons. One parent wanted to buy a piano and the other wanted a keyboard. Meanwhile the girls had nothing to practise on. Whenever the parent came to collect the girls, they always asked "how are they progressing?" What did they expect me to say? In the end, they made so little progress that I had to give them up.
A few years later, when they had bought a piano, they asked me to take on a third sister but by then I had got switched off completely so I had to decline. Shame really!
Barbara
A few years later, when they had bought a piano, they asked me to take on a third sister but by then I had got switched off completely so I had to decline. Shame really!
Barbara
It's defintely not just a violin problem.
Parents talk about their child playing the piano for 'the pleasure' but, if I try to explain that the pleasure comes from putting in the effort and then seeing the results, I'm looked at blankly.
Children expect it to be easy and a lot of parents seem scared to confront the issue. Or, worse, they flit violently - they go for weeks saying nothing and then flip out, screeching that the child might as well blinkin' give up at they don't practise.
Parents talk about their child playing the piano for 'the pleasure' but, if I try to explain that the pleasure comes from putting in the effort and then seeing the results, I'm looked at blankly.
Children expect it to be easy and a lot of parents seem scared to confront the issue. Or, worse, they flit violently - they go for weeks saying nothing and then flip out, screeching that the child might as well blinkin' give up at they don't practise.
QUOTE(dolce@piano @ Jun 21 2009, 12:24 PM) 
Children expect it to be easy...
I think this is a generational thing, I'm only in my late 20's but already I can see a difference between my generation and that of the children I teach. Without wanting to sound like a Grumpy Old Woman I put it down to what I'd call "The PlayStation Effect". They've grown up with modern technology and everything at their fingertips and more recently Guitar Hero and they don't seem to realise that if they want to be good at something like playing a musical instrument that they have to work for it. Of course not all children are like that thankfully, but I think it might be the start of a trend.
As for motivation this has to come from the student, they have to want to play an instrument and practice and if it becomes clear that it's their parent's ambition and not their own then I suggest that we discontinue lessons. Thankfully I've only had to do this a couple of times so far.
QUOTE(M-C @ Jun 21 2009, 01:49 PM)
They've grown up with modern technology and everything at their fingertips and more recently Guitar Hero and they don't seem to realise that if they want to be good at something like playing a musical instrument that they have to work for it. Of course not all children are like that thankfully, but I think it might be the start of a trend.
As for motivation this has to come from the student, they have to want to play an instrument and practice and if it becomes clear that it's their parent's ambition and not their own then I suggest that we discontinue lessons.
Um.....Guitar Hero? Never heard of this - I must be behind the times!
I think you are right, M-C, it is the beginnning of a trend. In a culture that has to have instant gratification in so many respects, the same has started to apply to instruments; the dedication and commitment are so often just not there.
Just yesterday, I had to remind a father that his daughter wouldn't progress with her violin if she didn't put more practise in, and suggest to a mother that her teenage son stop piano lessons as his heart really wasn't in it. He prefers his saxophone and guitars, but mum and dad want him to learn piano too.
Thank goodness for the interested ones. I announced to an 8-year-old pianist yesterday that next week would be the last lesson this term, and she was genuinely disappointed.
QUOTE(Misterioso @ Jun 21 2009, 02:12 PM)
Um.....Guitar Hero? Never heard of this - I must be behind the times!
Thank goodness for the interested ones. I announced to an 8-year-old pianist yesterday that next week would be the last lesson this term, and she was genuinely disappointed.
Yep that's why we keep doing it and put up with all the other niggles. Sometimes it can be the best job in the world!
Guitar Hero - for the uninitiated is a game that you can play on the Playstation or XBox and maybe the Wii. You buy a little 3 foot piece of plastic shaped like a guitar which has 5 coloured buttons on it on the neck and a thing for your to flick with your other hand. On the screen you have 5 lines, 1 for each button, and you have to press the buttons in the right order to play the tune. Hence the kids can play their favourite guitar tunes with very little skill at all and think that playing the guitar is easy. In a way it's good because it gets kids involved in music and rhythm and timing, but they must be awfully disappointed when they try a real guitar - any guitar teachers out there care to comment?
Show me a kid who says they haven't got time to practise because of 'all the homework' they have to do, or all the Brownie sessions they have to attend and I'll show you a child who's either a TV, PlayStation or computer games addict - pretty much end of story.
I have an adult student who has three kids and a full-time job and yet she still finds time to practise at least a little bit every day. Tells me everything I need to know, really.
I have an adult student who has three kids and a full-time job and yet she still finds time to practise at least a little bit every day. Tells me everything I need to know, really.
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