In the trills topic we have discussed about using Vaccai to help devloping technique. I had a chat ith my teacher today who was very pleased with my progress this week, and I confessed that I had been practising with Vaccai. I can't put it down to either (a) the Vaccai or ( the practise, but I suspect it is the latter. Vaccai just helped me be a bit more structured about what I do!

My teacher said she doesn't give anyone Vaccai as she hates it from doing soooo much of it at the Guildhall, and suggested that Concone would be another alternative. (Anyone know of an edition of Concone with practie CD?)

Does anyone use any methods regularly, and what do you think of them? Are they helpful? Should they be sued only with a teacher?

Any thoughts?

Oops... Interesting smiley appeared, and I meant 'used with a teacher' not sued!

Never heard of Concone. Vaccai I did with a previous teacher in New York (a Russian guy who swore by it), not with the current one who has her own warm-up stuff (and also went to Guildhall - I'll ask her if, like yours, she grew sick of it!)

I think as with any practice it is good to vary - otherwise you get into a rut and it stops being useful (I noticed that with scales and Hanon on the piano: it pays to vary rhythms and groupings, but with Vaccai it might be harder to do as they are already like little pieces!). With Vaccai I think doing it always alone you dont always hear where you are doing it wrong (unlike a scale you fluff) so it probably pays to do it at least once in a while with a teacher.

IMHO that is :-)

Yes I know Concone - a singing teacher of mine used it ages ago. I guess I have a copy somewhere, I can't really remember much about it so maybe it didn't have much impact.

Maggie
sorry not much help!

Anyone else use Concone? If so, which book? I notice that there are several on Musicroom....

Hello there!
Please can you explain what the 'Vaccai' and 'Concone' methods of singing are exactly? I go to the Guildhall but have NEVER heard of these...!

I am intrigued! Thanks!

QUOTE (songflower @ Apr 29 2005, 01:59 PM)

Hello there! Please can you explain what the 'Vaccai' and 'Concone' methods of singing are exactly? I go to the Guildhall but have NEVER heard of these...! I am intrigued! Thanks!

I suggested Vaccai as an approach in the thread discussing Trills - and was gratifed at the uptake, and the reported success, from quite a number of subscribers.

My teacher used it only as a means of teaching specific skills - I did not use it as a complete singing method. I did not even use Vaccai for very long - we just dipped into it to learn the trill, appogiatura, acciaccatura, etc. I found the approach extremely efficient and effective.

Going back to the book again however, I am reminded that this text can be used as a complete method as reflected in its title - "Practical Method of Italian Singing". Early exercises in the book involve scales, intervals (one at a time), syncopation - but above all a means of learning Italian pronunciation, and using it in cleverly varied m singing exercises. The exercises themselves are melodic and with accompaniment.

I see under a section entitled "The Author's Object in This Practical Method" that Vaccai designed this especially for those "who learn for amusement" - with the method being "new in its kind - short, amusing and useful". Compared with other methods Vaccai believed "the end proposed may be attained with equal certainty, and in less time".

It is surprising then that anyone, Guildhall included, would have wanted to beat this text to death. The feedback I read in the Trills thread, and your feedback too, would suggest that Vaccai is an excellent tool kit that can still provide the benefits originally envisaged. Funny how this text, originally released in 1833, is stll so widely published and used - to very positive effect.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 30 2005, 01:02 AM)

I see under a section entitled "The Author's Object in This Practical Method" that Vaccai designed this especially for those "who learn for amusement" - with the method being "new in its kind - short, amusing and useful". Compared with other methods Vaccai believed "the end proposed may be attained with equal certainty, and in less time".

Hi George,

I don't know which edition you have, but reading the introduction to mine the other day I was surprised to read that it was designed for amateurs too! However reading on it appears that Schubert described himself as a musical amateur, and that 19th cent amateurs were 'often splendid musicians and excellent performers'.

That might explain why my teacher described it as 'hard'.... I trust her judgement as to it being hard (she teaches professionals, Cathedral choral scholars, good amateurs, promising youngsters and a few of the likes of me(!), as well as being Artistic Director for our Opera company). I often think how I used to consider some songs easy, and not, applying the correct technique, you now appreciate quite how hard they are.

Our interpretation of those who are amaetur / do things for enjoyment or amusement, like a lot of words, has changed somewhat over the last 150 years or so.

Like you though, I think it is an extremely useful method, especially as it is so progressive. The best thing for me is that is gives me as 'easy' way to warm up, with book and CD - I used to use any excuse for not practising! No excuses now...

Have you used any other methods with your teacher?

My teacher didn't let me loose on Vaccai until after Grade 5. I think it's wonderful though, and I spend as much time as I want with the exercises. Being short exercises they offer flexibility in terms of using them as a quick warm up, or for more sustained practice.

Seems a shame that your teacher doesn't use them just because she tired of them.

Amber
x

My teacher started me on Vaccai from my very first lesson. We do a few at the start of each lesson. Quite often a couple of the "interval" ones followed by an "ornament" one or the recitative and frequently finishing off with the final aria.

I view them as being (for me at least) the equivalent of doing scales on the piano - which is why I sing them through after my initial warm-up when I practise. And if I'm having particular difficulty with an ornament in something I'm learning, I go back and sing that exercise again.

Cheers

Katyjay

My teacher feels about them the same as I do about singing 'Away in a manger' after 13 carol services at Christmas. it got so bad one year that I left it out of one carol service altogether as I could't face it again, and got into trouble with the children. I think she just did them a few times too often....

She did say, though, she would be happy to do it with me, nad I think I will take her up on that one.

QUOTE (Emma C @ Apr 30 2005, 08:44 AM)

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 30 2005, 01:02 AM) I see under a section entitled "The Author's Object in This Practical Method" that Vaccai designed this especially for those "who learn for amusement" - with the method being "new in its kind - short, amusing and useful".  Compared with other methods Vaccai believed "the end proposed may be attained with equal certainty, and in less time". I don't know which edition you have, but reading the introduction to mine the other day I was surprised to read that it was designed for amateurs too! However reading on it appears that Schubert described himself as a musical amateur, and that 19th cent amateurs were 'often splendid musicians and excellent performers'. Our interpretation of those who are amaetur / do things for enjoyment or amusement, like a lot of words, has changed somewhat over the last 150 years or so. Like you though, I think it is an extremely useful method, especially as it is so progressive. The best thing for me is that is gives me as 'easy' way to warm up, with book and CD - I used to use any excuse for not practising! No excuses now... Have you used any other methods with your teacher?

Schubert was most probably speaking of himself an amateur in the financial sense. He did not get fair reward for the quality of music he wrote, in factI have read that he survived largely on donations from friends who believed in him.

To me, true professionalism has nothing to do with amount earned, it is all about the standards that are achieved and consistently maintained.

In this sense, Schubert's output and consistent quality of 400 songs on their own would be enough to immortalise him, but symphonies, sonatas, string quartet, schoral works, etc would make him one of the most "professional" composers that there ever was. And he died at only 31.

I suppose the above is completely obvious to everyone here, but it needs to be said. Better examples do exist - I heard on the radio the other day that Tschaikovsky was Russia's first "Full time" composer, so you may argue that there are many great Russian composers who achieved what they did while holding down another career.

Regarding other methods, I did not learn one method from the 3 wonderful teachers I had. Everything was personalised to make me address my specific needs at any one time.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ Apr 30 2005, 05:25 PM)

Regarding other methods, I did not learn one method from the 3 wonderful teachers I had. Everything was personalised to make me address my specific needs at any one time.

And probably by far the best way. It's just interesting to see instrumentalists talking about one method or another, and singing ones seem conspicuous by their absence. The only reason I reached for Vaccai was on your recommendation for work on trills - thank you - and it has been a very good tool so far. I'll keep working at it...