I have an adult student, who I have taught from beginner, currently learning the Grade 4 pieces. She passed Grades 1-3, with quite low marks, but I fear G4 will be a stumbling block as she has poor rhythmic sense, and a bad habit of hesitating at bar lines. She always practises hard and I am pleased with her overall progress, but how can I get her to count? I count along with her and use the metronome, but with a piece like "Danse Orientale" (list it sounds nothing like it should because the rhythms are wrong. Any suggestions please?

I'm not an experienced teacher or anything, but if she's having such problems that she isn't able to play grade four pieces, maybe it would be better to leave the grade pieces for some while and concentrate on expanding her repertoire outwards with pieces of a similar level to those she can already cope with, and doing some intensive work on rhythms - ie sight-singing and clapping rhythms without having to worry about the technical aspect of playing the instrument at the same time. If her rhythmic sense is weak then progress will slow right down, and pushing her into pieces she is not able to play because of her lack of rhythm won't do her any good. Playing within that are within her range because the rhythms are simpler, but learning to play them with real style and panache, will do her piano technique a lot of good, and when she has sorted out her rhythmic difficulties she can move on to harder stuff. Anyway, that's my 2 pence...

QUOTE (Madge Woollard @ Apr 30 2005, 11:06 AM)

I have an adult student, who I have taught from beginner, currently learning the Grade 4 pieces. She passed Grades 1-3, with quite low marks, but I fear G4 will be a stumbling block as she has poor rhythmic sense, and a bad habit of hesitating at bar lines. She always practises hard and I am pleased with her overall progress, but how can I get her to count?

If she refuses to count, there's not much you can do about it. Counting for her when she is with you may help and it may eventually sink in, but presumably she's only with you once a week for about 30 minutes so if she doesn't count at home when she practises then it won't make any difference. Danse Orientale is a tricky one and as you say won't sound like anything if the rhythm is wrong. Could you suggest she buys the CD and listens to it? If she is any way musical she will be able to hear her rhythm is wrong and by listening to it regularly she might be able to copy it and improve her rhythm that way.

Have you tried using rhythm flash cards and rhythm names?

I think you should make her count anyway.
Maybe you can start with counting and clapping the beat.
Then continue with counting and clapping the rhythm.
After that, make her counting and playing one note with the tunes' rhythm.
Finally, tell her to count and play the tunes.

Make her to count out loud first because it will help her to internalize the beat.

Be a dictator!

Dal_segno is right. You could get her to clap the rhythm. Counting out loud is also a good idea and then you will know that she is counting correctly.

QUOTE (noodle @ May 1 2005, 12:13 PM)

Danse Orientale is a tricky one and as you say won't sound like anything if the rhythm is wrong. Could you suggest she buys the CD and listens to it? If she is any way musical she will be able to hear her rhythm is wrong and by listening to it regularly she might be able to copy it and improve her rhythm that way.

Surely that is counter-productive, as it means she doesn't have to learn to play by sight and will continue to lag behind in that area?

I would recommend having her clap rhythms, and working on easier repertoire as it sounds like she just isn't ready for grade 4 stuff yet.

Yes I know and I would only use the CD as a last resort. Sometimes teachers have to resort to desperate measures to get students through exams. At the end of the day many students can't or don't count properly but they have rhythms corrected by the time they do the exam. Unless they are asked to count as they play in their exam the examiner won't know if they are counting correctly or counting at all. Quite often I am asked to sub for teachers who are absent and I am amazed how many students can play a piece they have been practicing for months and not be able to tell me how many beats there are in a bar.

I teach piano - perhaps one of the hardest instruments to overcome this problem of stopping at every barline to prepare hands for what is coming next. (Trouble with that is, when pupils get used to practising the piece that way they start to think that's the right way to play it!). I find this problem is often worse with adults, who are so keen to get everything right and not play a wrong note.

Here are some of the things I do:

Is the pupil fluent in the sep hands? If not, all the usual - clapping the rhythms, slow practice, and working on sections rather than the a - z playthrough. Shadow-playing with them 8ve higher is a good way to help them realise where they break rhythm (or with another instrument at same pitch).

Very often the pupil is fluent with RH but not LH. I find often if they can play one hand on its own, they need to get used to hearing how it sounds in context, as with duet-playing. I find I spend quite a lot of lesson time getting the pupil to play one hand while I play the other. This gives them the complete aural experience of the piece rather than their own faltering hands tog rendering.

If there is still faltering at the barlines then you as a teacher have to be creative about strategies to help them get it right, and need to learn how to break a piece down in order to do this. I build up the piece bit by bit rather than a - z. I often find fluency can be achieved by working backwards rather than forwards - ie, work on last bar, then last 2 bars or each difficult section. With simple music I get them to play LH and sing RH, or play one hand and tap rhythm of the other. (I use this technique in sections in more advanced pieces).

Hope some of this helps!

Hi cyrilla

What are rhythm flash cards and rhythm names? Ive never heard of them.

There are many different rhythm names which teachers use, which are usually based on the French time names (ta for crotchet, ta-te for quavers and so on).

Kodaly adapted these and Kodaly teachers tend to use ta and ti-ti or te-te. Some people use tiri-tiri for semiquavers but some prefer tika-tika (I'm one of these!).

They should always be spoken to a steady pulse. They really work, both for rhythm reading and for identification of the rhythm you hear.

Flash cards are just cards with various rhythm patterns written on (sometimes just the 'sticks' are written without the note-heads). They are read by the student using the rhythm names. If the teacher moves to the next card on the last beat of the previous one you are encouraging the student to read ahead, fluently. This can then be developed into changing the card one whole bar ahead so that the student is reading in canon! Body percussion can also be used (eg click the crotchets, tap the quavers, touch your nose in the rests etc).

As Nat and Helen discovered in David Vinden's class last week, they can also be used to help memorisation! He asked the class to read 4 bars of 4/4 rhythm with rhythm names, then turned over one card at a time until the whole 4 bars were memorised.

There are many other variations on these activities and games! Children can choose a card and improvise a vocal or played melody to it, for example.

They really do work and enable the student to just concentrate on the rhythms without also having to worry about the technique on the instrument at the same time.

I hope this explains it a bit!

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ May 2 2005, 10:44 PM)

As Nat and Helen discovered in David Vinden's class last week, they can also be used to help memorisation! He asked the class to read 4 bars of 4/4 rhythm with rhythm names, then turned over one card at a time until the whole 4 bars were memorised.

heeh yes

what was it now.....*thinks*

ta,ta,ta,ta ta-ee ,ti,ta,ta,syn-co, pa ta ta, ti ti, ta, ti ti, ta

was that correct?!

My favourite trick here is mean - a little bit of ritual humiliation! Pupil (a junior clarinettist) doesn't seem to like holding semibreves for a full four beats, but by playing the accompaniment, and making sure that I stick to the rhythm no matter what Pupil is doing, he is realising the importance of playing in time and counting. The major breakthrough was playing a study (unaccompanied); there are quite a few bars of minim, crotchet, crotchet rest, and last week these rhythms were spot on!

madge, could you try playing LH to your pupil playing RH and then swap, to see if this works for you?

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ May 3 2005, 03:43 PM)

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ May 2 2005, 10:44 PM) As Nat and Helen discovered in David Vinden's class last week, they can also be used to help memorisation!  He asked the class to read 4 bars of 4/4 rhythm with rhythm names, then turned over one card at a time until the whole 4 bars were memorised.   heeh yes what was it now.....*thinks* ta,ta,ta,ta ta-ee ,ti,ta,ta,syn-co, pa ta ta, ti ti, ta, ti ti, ta was that correct?!

Yes!

It really DOES work!!!!

wow i am shocked!!

QUOTE (noodle @ May 2 2005, 11:08 AM)

Sometimes teachers have to resort to desperate measures to get students through exams. At the end of the day many students can't or don't count properly but they have rhythms corrected by the time they do the exam. Unless they are asked to count as they play in their exam the examiner won't know if they are counting correctly or counting at all.

Yes, that's true. But - that still doesn't solve the underlying problem. And one would think with an adult learner that getting the student through the exam is not likely to be a problem in the same way that it could with with a younger pupil - who may have pushy parents or need to get through exams for some other reason. In either case, solving the underlying problem (helping the student develop a sense of rhythm) is far far better than glossing over the problem by teaching them to play only by ear. "getting through the grades" without dealing with the underlying issue will only lead to problems later on, will mean the student never learns to sightread, and will hamper them if they ever want to teach themself pieces for fun. There are plenty of ways to help a student develop a sense of rhythm, as has been amply demonstrated by all these posts. Getting round the lack of rhythm should be the absolute last resort if a student simply will not learn to count even for their own benefit, and in that case one wonders why they are learning in the first place, and whether "getting them through exams" will give them any benefit anyway.