Hi
I used to study languages and tought piano and flute part time to earn some pocket money but as my few pupils turned to 10 I decided that muisic was so much more rewarding than languages and so i've quit my degree.
I now plan to do the CTABRSM in october.

I'm currently trying to find myself a one/two bedroom house or flat so I can teach music without annoying house mates etc...
however i'm struggling to find a place for £400 pcm or less in Sheffield and particulary struggling to find one that'll allow me to use the premesis for business or have a piano!

landlords are worried about neighbours and wont sign contracts that allow me to use the home for business.

anyone know if it's actually possible to use rented accomodation to teach from??

thanks,
Kate

Kate

I have personal experience of this myself.I'm teaching very soon,so will be back on later.

Hopefully someone will answer you before me.

Have you done a search on landlord/tenant Law?

Having been a Rich Tory Landowner (but now Rich Dungeon Death and Taxes Landowner - see text language thread on the general forum), my experience is that most tenancy agreements state Thou Shalt Not Run A Business From The Rented Premises.

Most landlords are nevertheless human, and if you're doing a little bit of music tuition, your landlord may allow you to teach at the rented premises. That said, make sure that your landlord is in agreement before you start, and that you have this agreement in writing; also, if you're renting through an agency, the agent knows you are self-employed at home and with your landlord's permission. The agency may also feel that music tuition doesn't actually constitute running a business.

What did you find when doing this, Semele?

If there's absolutely no way round, how practical would it be for you to visit your pupils' homes, or even rent a hall with piano for a few hours each week?

QUOTE (Deborah @ May 3 2005, 04:22 PM)

Having been a Rich Tory Landowner (but now Rich Dungeon Death and Taxes Landowner - see text language thread on the general forum), my experience is that most tenancy agreements state Thou Shalt Not Run A Business From The Rented Premises. Most landlords are nevertheless human, and if you're doing a little bit of music tuition, your landlord may allow you to teach at the rented premises. That said, make sure that your landlord is in agreement before you start, and that you have this agreement in writing; also, if you're renting through an agency, the agent knows you are self-employed at home and with your landlord's permission. The agency may also feel that music tuition doesn't actually constitute running a business. What did you find when doing this, Semele? If there's absolutely no way round, how practical would it be for you to visit your pupils' homes, or even rent a hall with piano for a few hours each week?

Deborah

I agree with you. The Law is rather grey in this area to say the least,as is running a music business from home,both privately owned or rented.

Kate....You need to check out these details.

Please contact your local environmental health office and book an appointment with an officer who will provide,in writing,the necessary details like decibel levels,unsociable hours and so on. You can then go armed with this evidence to a landlord or agency.

When I had to find rented accommodation the Landlord would not allow me to work from the premises and eventually I had to ask him if I could. Understandedly,I had to ask the neighbours whether they had any objection to me teaching ( the houses were of a strange design...imagine one big house cut into quarters,so I had 3 neighbours instead of the normal 2 ) and whether they would object to people walking up the private path. Thankfully,the neighbours were all agreeable and very nice people.

Nothing was put in writing,and again, the Landlord was a reasonable person.

Have you thought about using a digital piano as the volume can be controlled or consider contributing to sound proofing? If you are thinking of moving into a flat you also have to consider the people underneath you. Long gone are the days when you hear the sounds of scales in the communal entrance hall (who remembers watching the film Madame Sousatska?)

I'm also concerned about your overheads. Have you thought about how much you need to earn before you start to live? Ok,you have the benefits agencies to fall back on,but a lot of landlords won't except housing benefit.

You are extremely lucky having that wonderful gift of linguistics.Why throw it away? Why not utilise it and combine it with your music? It's also not as noisy:) Most teaching is done after school hours.You could work at your languages during the day.

http://www.startups.co.uk/cyoSIy5oRGHrYA.html

As for securing rented accommodation,explore different avenues.There might be a person living in a big house who might not object to someone teaching from their premises. Have you put an advertisement in the local paper? What about friends,colleagues,other teachers?

It can be very surprising what comes to you if you explore in more unconventional routes.

Deborah...What do you think?

PS There are places...just thinking about your reference to Sheffield...where property can be still bought fairly cheaply.This can work out cheaper than paying out dead money each month to a landlord. Are you prepared to move or do you have to stay within your area? Just a thought.

I wouldn't have had a problem with a tenant giving music lessons, but not every landlord is as understanding as I am.

Most rental agencies won't allow anyone on benefits to rent through them, and it's much the same if you rent directly from the landlord (the usual problem of a few spoiling it for the majority, I suspect), so you will need both income and proof of income before anyone is likely to rent you a property.

Deborah

Have you thought about asking if you could use your local church or church hall? When I moved into rented accommodation recently I discovered the local vicar lived on the same street; even though I am not a churchgoer at all he was only too pleased to let me use the local church for my teaching. He said that it was great that the church was being used during the week, and won't let me pay any money even towards light / heating. (I'm a brass teacher so I'll offer him free carols at Christmas and so on as a thank you.)
Also (another sudden thought), if you are a pianist you may be able to use somewhere in exchange for an hour or so a week piano playing (eg the old folks tea dance at the local social club).

Of the four piano teachers (including the current one) I have used for my children and one 'cello teacher, they all lived in rented accommodation . One piano tacher lives in the middle flat of a house conversion. I spoke her and she said she has a 'proper part-time job' outside the piano teaching which secured the accommodation and she teaches in her flat part-time in the evenings . Her neighbours have never complained and the landlord is nonchalant. I dont know if this is a London thing.

Also I have had a music student as a lodger and was quite happy for him to use our music room to teach in for a small extra fee (babysitting once a week). I was also quite happy to hear his excellent practise sessions.

Put an ad in your local music shop for shared studio accommodation perhaps.

Finally having a piano in the accommodation at all should not be an issue as it is classified as a piece of furniture!

Is Kate stiill about?

Hate to be the one to mention this, as it does appear to be a nefarious piece of advice... but the mind boggles m'dear - Why on earth do you need to tell a landlord that you're planning to teach at home at all?!!!

Best option - don't mention it! Tell them you're a musician and you need to practise sure, but I'd even go as far as telling white fibs to get around the situation - tell them you never teach at home and make up some nonesense about how you hate teaching @ home as it's too much like bringing the job home after work...

and if anyone spots the eager students dropping in and raises an eyebrow - they're family friends you're teaching for free as a favour for x number of things the parents have done for you... or better yet, you're not officially even 'teaching' them.. they popped over to visit, and you let them have a tinkle on the piano; no professional 'teaching' going on as such...

If they then choose to slip u a tenner or two to say thanks for 'babysitting' their kid for half an hr - who's to complain, and more importantly... did it ever really happen?!

If you catch my drift...

QUOTE (Mr bluefrets @ May 7 2005, 09:48 AM)

Hate to be the one to mention this, as it does appear to be a nefarious piece of advice... but the mind boggles m'dear - Why on earth do you need to tell a landlord that you're planning to teach at home at all?!!! Best option - don't mention it! Tell them you're a musician and you need to practise sure, but I'd even go as far as telling white fibs to get around the situation - tell them you never teach at home and make up some nonesense about how you hate teaching @ home as it's too much like bringing the job home after work... and if anyone spots the eager students dropping in and raises an eyebrow - they're family friends you're teaching for free as a favour for x number of things the parents have done for you... or better yet, you're not officially even 'teaching' them.. they popped over to visit, and you let them have a tinkle on the piano; no professional 'teaching' going on as such... If they then choose to slip u a tenner or two to say thanks for 'babysitting' their kid for half an hr - who's to complain, and more importantly... did it ever really happen?! If you catch my drift...

No! I don't catch your drift at all. This is one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever read. Without elaborating on your post further,surely anybody with a shred of common sense can see what I mean.

Well, I am pleased to realise that I obviously have no common sense after all these years teaching, playing, travelling around and living in a number of different rented rooms, flats, houses and the like. If only I'd had a shred of common sense before I started learning music! I should have known better than to foolishly believe I would ever make a tidy living from either teaching or playing!! You're quite right of course, I don't know what I'm talking about - please do forgive this amateurish slip of the mind in deluding myself into acting like a professional musician and teacher; anyone would almost think I had actually been in this situation before and been turned away repeatedly by obstinate landlords!! How silly of me to assume this grandiose pretense!

Clearly the best advice is, whilst trying to rely entirely on private teaching for a living, to beg agencies and landlords for their 'permission' to allow you to teach in their premises, and spend months searching for a place to live as they all say no way - "no insurance, business running from home, most improper, etc" ... then try and magically produce the vast sum required to go it alone and buy premises, cash in hand, so you can avoid the landlord dilemma altogether - This is before you actually get started trying to make a serious living from teaching, privately, of course.

Quite right. What on EARTH was I thinking?!

Many apologies for suggesting such rot!

Best of luck with the paperwork, decibel level tests, local residents permission, legal red tape, and long winded explanations over and over to try and explain that a piano doesn't actually make THAT much noise, and when compared to a stereo on full blast - and that of course it's ridiculous, blah blah ...

In fact, why not go the whole hog and buy an entertainment license before you broach the subject with the agencies and landlords, so you can have the premises registered as an official 'live' music venue - just so you can practice in peace and do a little teaching to pass on your hard earned skills without upsetting the neighbours too much!!!

The way this government has set things up, you'd think it's mandatory to gain permission and pay a fee to play a single note these days without risking legal proceedings!

After all, last time I watched a friend play piano, I had to wear earplugs to stop the excruciating pain I felt everytime a single key was pressed gently- after the last piano recital I went to burst everyone's eardrums from 60 feet without amplification!

Pianos are dangerous instruments after all!!! + God forbid a child learn how to wield this lethal aural weapon!!! Certainly not without the proper fees being paid to the the right people first of course...

Not that I'm being sarcastic or anything, or that I find the state of affairs in this country with regard to music education and live music in general an offence to the artform from time to time...

After all, a nightclub can't possible generate as much noise as a grand piano can it!!! No, silliness, they don't need an 'entertainment license'; what rot! Anywhere that has 'instruments' of course or, GOD SAVE US - musicians!! (Terrible bunch of miscreants out to deafen the land!) must must must pay for the privilege of playing their strident WMD's in public. (weapons of mass deafness)

Quick! A recorder teacher's teaching without a license! Mi6!!! Attack attack! Wound, maim, neutralise the threat!

Anyway, That's me done for the year! Firmly tongue in cheek of course, and without absolutely a single shred of common... commas, erm... what was it again!?

Just a thought but could you travel around to peoples' houses instead of teaching from home (I'm aware that this has advantages and disadvantages)? Or would that leave you with the same problems?

Sorry Semele but what exactly did you find so offensive about Mr Bluefrets advice? How many music teachers ask for a permit from Landlords, neighbours and the local council when they are just starting out?
Just how many music teachers do tax returns when they are starting out? Most just get by on a few students and not enough to fill in a tax form with. It all takes time.
Just How many music teachers say "by the way I have a piano is that a problem?" Please lets be real and honest here. Lets have a poll on this maybe.

My husband taught the Euphonium and trumpet when we were first married living in rented baasement accommodation and we certainly never asked the landlord or the neighbours, we just told them that was how he made his living when he wasnt at gigs at night! It was me living with him and a young baby that found the noise difficult but most of our friends did this and you know what some still live in rented accommodation with their pianos being tickled away by a steady stream of students. No-one is suggesing you lie, but there are loads of musicans who teach and practice whilst living in rented accommodation. Its how you present yourself. 'This is what I do' - as opposed to a querlous 'do you mind' speech bubble hanging in the air'.

As to common sense - it makes common sense if you want to get started!

QUOTE

No! I don't catch your drift at all. This is one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever read.

I agree with you Semele.

It seems the advice appears to be a deliberate attempt to misinform, mislead, or to misrepresent the situation. Any one of these three would risk damaging the high integrity which the music teaching profession generally maintains.

Maggie

QUOTE (maggiemay @ May 7 2005, 06:38 PM)

Any one of these three would risk damaging the high integrity which the music teaching profession generally maintains. Maggie

Not only that, but possible eviction from grounds of breach of contract if the landlord were to find out. Not all neighbours are quite so tolerant as that particular case suggests. Some of them can be very sneaky. Not worth the risk, I say.

Hire a hall or go to their houses. Much easier.

liz

QUOTE (maggiemay @ May 7 2005, 05:38 PM)

It seems the advice appears to be a deliberate attempt to misinform, mislead, or to misrepresent the situation. Any one of these three would risk damaging the high integrity which the music teaching profession generally maintains.

Interesting. I must say, I never envisaged such an issue, which I have always taken to be relatively trivial, to invoke such a mixed set of responses, and raise such controversy.

Of course I'm not suggesting you lie from the outset as to your intentions, however it does strike me as odd that teaching piano from home should turn into such a complex affair. True, almost all tenancy agreements state that the property is under no circumstances to be used for business purposes, and that no 'business' should take place on the property.

However, unless the circumstances are unfavourable (i.e. thin walls, close neighbours liable to complain, etc) I fail to see how any detriment could come to a landlord, from instrumental lessons taking place on the property. After all, musicians practice at home frequently, groups rehearse at residential properties on many an occasion - no provision is set aside for this necessarily, yet the instant a smidgeon of cash changes hands, any music making becomes a 'breach of contract'. (unless of course, the contract specifically forbids ANY musical endeavours from the outset.)

Most odd; yet large numbers of people travel to tutors houses for all manner of tuition; foreign languages, maths and science, martial arts, etc.. and a blind eye to is turned any technical 'breach' of law. (if there is indeed any) Many similar 'offences' occur daily; for years people have know that it is illegal to record television programmes, however the facility has existed for twenty years or more! Jaywalking has been an offence for some time I believe - yet how many people get arrested for rushing across the road when they shouldn't?

I'm very sorry if anyone finds my opinion offensive or unpleasant, but frankly, it's tough! I simply do not believe there should be a problem with teaching music from home, rented property or not! Here's where the 'common sense' comes in - after all, "Not all neighbours are quite so tolerant", - quite right! ... Ergo, if you honestly perceive a problem with sound leakage into a neighbouring home, the best policy in my book is to pop next door with a cup of sugar and have a chat to them about the situation; do they mind you playing in the house? Can they hear you? Is it a problem? What hours do they work, etc... when's a good time to play...

Obviously some neighbours will say no outright, some you daren't approach full stop - maybe you're in a rough area... 'common sense', as it were, would enlighten one to the reality of such a situation - in which case hiring alternate premises might be a plan! (if it's cost effective; unlikely.) The type of instrument is obviously an issue - a trombone might upset the neighbours more than an acoustic guitar, and suchlike... So, here, 'common sense' would dictate that it might be wise to carefully examine any prospective premises for their proximity to neighbours, try knocking on the walls to see how thick they are, a quick once over and a short chat to any amenable neighbours, can actually go a long way - believe it or not!

In other words, pick your place very carefully and check if sound leakage is going to be an issue - you're a musician after all, and presumably that means you at least practice a fair bit - you need somewhere you can do that without upsetting TOO many people.

As far as 'integrity' is concerned, I heartily agree, the music teaching profession has an esteemed reputation; largely I believe, thanks to the teachers concerned - many of whom (I have NO doubt) have had to dodge unforgiving landlords and pedantic neighbours (and worse!) over the years, just to ensure that they can make a living and pass on their skills - it is thanks to this, unflinching integrity to the music tradition, that music remains alive today; in other words, in the face of adversity, we battle on to ensure music can and will be practised, performed, and taught to any who wish to listen. If that occasionally means bending the rules to keep music alive, and challenging OTT red tape and bureaucracy, which threatens to prevent a great deal of music ever taking place, then so be it! Don't forget, the original post mentioned 'evil landlords', and presumably this notion encompasses unreasonable neighbours; it is these people I would strive to stymie from keeping me from music. I'd never advocate deliberately going out to upset, or mislead, or misinform, or misrepresent anyone necessarily; however, if you use your 'common sense', and make sure that this doesn't happen, and that nobody suffers as a result of your music, or the level of noise coming from your abode, then I simply fail to see the harm in just getting on with your teaching, and playing and so forth.

However, being told that you simply 'can't' do that, without a valid reason, when nobody is any worse off, stuns me as being tantamount to an infringement of civil liberties; and it's exactly this kind of restrictive atmosphere that is beginning to creep into our society; entertainment licenses and all!

My integrity, and common sense, simply will not allow me to lie down and take that notion lightly. I am more than happy to agree to disagree on that one; best of luck with finding a place you can teach and play in peace!

Mr Bluefrets

There is also the strongest possibility that if a complaint is made the teacher that has lied might be in trouble with the inland revenue aswell as facing the possibility of eviction leading to loss of income. No job,no home....unless they can make alternative arrangements very quickly.

Thankfully I'm now out of rented accommodation and only need to answer to my mortgage company. The insurance et al is all above board.

May I suggest you do a search on this topic...as I have already said...Tenant/Landlord Law? Or seek the advice of a specialist solicitor to prove my point? There are forums dealing with this.Or read a bog standard tenancy agreement?

Yes,you may get away with and be lucky,but what happens if your luck runs out one day? Always best to have every angle covered.

Like you have said : " if anyone finds my opinion offensive or unpleasant, but frankly, it's tough!"

I agree.But I'm not saying sorry. It was totally irresponsible of you to post such a thing.

Why is it when anyone disagrees,it appears to mortally offend the poster? I was merely referring to your posting,not your teaching experience.

I can appreciate KateH posting about this issue,but in hindsight she should have been directed to another forum dealing directly with the Law in this area.

Yep: you may take that risk yourself, but it does seem irresponsible to advise others it's a good idea. & it's definitely an area in which it would be very wise to do one's research before considering doing something that will constitute breach of contract. Deciding it's "worth the risk" is one thing: not knowing whether it's a risk or how much of a risk it is is quite another.

Indeed. Perhaps it was irresponsible of me to suggest turning a blind eye, as it were. I am not suggesting that anyone openly lie about their intentions; as I said. As it happens, I have read many bog standard tenancy agreements over the years, and I am well aware of the consequences of being in breach of contract.

First of all, let me clarify a few things about my own situation; as a student, when I first took up teaching, I actually visited students in their homes for a long time. (a year or more) Of course this leads to losing time incurred travelling to and from different locations; and I didn't have a car, I walked to every home, or caught a bus - expensive on occasion.

Afterwards, I decided to start asking students to come to me, and yes, technically I was in breach of contract - although I didn't see the harm in it, and it wasn't a serious concern for me at the time. Had I been caught redhanded by a landlord or agent, perhaps there would have been problems. It is a risk, and perhaps it's not worth taking; that is something each person has to weigh up themselves. As far as complaints are concerned, 9 times out of 10 the parents of the student were present on the property with me for the duration of the lesson; and the other students were over the age of 18, making complaints related to the student unlikely. Complaints from neighbours were non-existent, and in this situation, one would use one's common sense to ensure nobody was affected by the noise created in teaching a student. If there is likely to be a problem, leading to a complaint, then it might well be wiser to avoid taking that risk in such circumstances.

As it happens, now, I no longer teach at home, as all of my teaching goes on in schools. I must say however, without the experience of teaching privately for two years prior to taking up my first school post, I doubt I would have even attempted aiming for school work, let alone succeeded in getting it! I agree that, in hindsight, it may not have been the most sensible move to undertake teaching at home, although I still fail to see why it should be such a complex issue.

I did not take offence at your disagreeing with me, but your comment about 'anyone with a shred of common sense', clearly implied that you imagined I had no common sense at all! This I will dispute, since no harm came to me or any of my students, or any of my neighbours during my time teaching at home. Had I had a different kind of 'common sense', as you describe, and attempted to undertake my teaching through the proper channels, I imagine I would have been turned down flat from the outset. Would that have been beneficial to me as a fledgling teacher, wondering how to get a foot in the profession?

As you said, it is a grey area; and one to tread lightly on, and obviously it's a better idea to obtain permission first, but in my experience, that can be hard to find, and often without informed judgements having taken place on the part of the landlord. I still maintain that it's a shame one has to be so cautious these days - all we're trying to do is teach a skill we love and wish to pass on; why on earth did it become so complicated?

The nanny state in action I say.

QUOTE (Mr bluefrets @ May 8 2005, 09:51 AM)

As you said, it is a grey area; and one to tread lightly on, and obviously it's a better idea to obtain permission first

Exactly. As I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't have had a problem with any of my tenants using the flat they were renting from me as a base for any music lessons they gave - but I certainly wouldn't want phone calls from the lettings agency saying, "Deborah, your tenant has been using the premises as a business premise - would you believe they've been giving music lessons?! As they were in breach of contract we've evicted them. Hope you don't mind not getting any rental income until we've found another tenant for you."

Also, knowing what's going on helps enormously when concerned neighbours phone up to tell you that a succession of young men are visiting regularly for half an hour at the time...

QUOTE (Deborah @ May 8 2005, 11:13 AM)

Also, knowing what's going on helps enormously when concerned neighbours phone up to tell you that a succession of young men are visiting regularly for half an hour at the time...

I know this is a serious topic but...

QUOTE

I still maintain that it's a shame one has to be so cautious these days - all we're trying to do is teach a skill we love and wish to pass on; why on earth did it become so complicated?

Can't argue with that and doubt anyone else would - it is a shame... just as it's a shame friends of mine who are teachers aren't allowed to give a child who fell down in the playground a hug when they're crying for fear of being accused ot sexual abuse... just as it's a shame a friend of mine is worried about her 11 year old daughter walking the 5mins home from secondary school alone, & has reason to worry... & other such issues that people have to think of. Unfortunately we can't change the times we are living in by clicking our fingers, so we have to work with the situation.

QUOTE (Deborah @ May 8 2005, 11:13 AM)

Also, knowing what's going on helps enormously when concerned neighbours phone up to tell you that a succession of young men are visiting regularly for half an hour at the time...

Now there's a situation I didn't contemplate!!! Good lord, imagine it!

Having seen your perspective as a landlord I admit, I had not spared a thought for the poor landlord's position; in these instances it would be a nightmare receiving a call like those!

I admit I have taken the whole issue too hamfistedly having escaped with my own teaching over the years. I suppose it has become necessarily a far more complex issue after all; and of course the situations Sarah-flute describes are ever prevalent in school life these days. On principle mindyou, I have to try and maintain a firm stance in my own mind, as to where to draw the line as regards a modicum of sanity in these circumstances. Perhaps my luck will run out one day, and I will fall foul of my own opinions; however, in spite of that possibility, I remain steadfast, in one assertion which sums up the whole issue perfectly in my eyes; as quoted by Sarah flute -

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life; music and cats."

"I did not take offence at your disagreeing with me, but your comment about 'anyone with a shred of common sense', clearly implied that you imagined I had no common sense at all! This I will dispute, since no harm came to me or any of my students, or any of my neighbours during my time teaching at home. Had I had a different kind of 'common sense', as you describe, and attempted to undertake my teaching through the proper channels, I imagine I would have been turned down flat from the outset. Would that have been beneficial to me as a fledgling teacher, wondering how to get a foot in the profession?"

I apologise then. I didn't mean it that way.I'm sure you understand it was due to the content of your original posting and not a character assassination.

It's a sad fact...and to follow up on latter postings....Society has changed and not for the better.It frightens me to say the least,so best to have every angle covered.

It's the first time I have logged in today.

Has anybody heard of the candidate...GCSE board...not the AB I stress... that was awarded another 2% extra on their exam mark because their pet had died?

What is the world coming to? A friend of mine...her sister committed suicide on one of her exam dates...early 1980s...Yes I still of of her and what a waste...

It was moved to another date and she was told that no one should discuss the exam (s) with her. She wasn't awarded another 2 marks...she had to sit it again.And losing your sister is a whole lot worse than losing your pet.

But no matter how hard life gets you have to carry on and get through it. People die and I still cry to this very day about close friends/relatives I will never see again.But would I expect to gain another 2% because of it? Not b##### likely.I would get on with it and crack up after. I'm talking from experience.

Comments?

Mr Bluefrets: "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life; music and cats." So very true.But don't forget wine...in moderation.I overdo it sometimes

QUOTE (Semele @ May 9 2005, 12:16 AM)

Has anybody heard of the candidate...GCSE board...not the AB I stress... that was awarded another 2% extra on their exam mark because their pet had died?

Good grief.

QUOTE

Has anybody heard of the candidate...GCSE board...not the AB I stress... that was awarded another 2% extra on their exam mark because their pet had died?

yes - I was reading about this online yesterday.

It seemed to be policy of one particular board, rather than one example that they identified - at least in the article I read.

Maggie

QUOTE

Not all neighbours are quite so tolerant as that particular case suggests.

Having read through the postings and noted what Mr Bluefrets wrote.......

With what I put up with from my neighbours, I'm surprised I'm still sane enough to even write this let alone teach

Two dogs barking at all hours of the day and night - to which nobody bothers to attend to. Kids bouncing footballs around the garden, kicking them into my fence and damaging it, not to mention when they come over the fence and land on some of my more prized plants!! Daily rows between family members, at the top of their voice, and every other word is four-lettered beginning with F. Without wanting to sound classist, they are rough - and as a single woman living alone, I'm not likely to go round there and complain, not unless I'd got a death wish.

I rent the property and have been to my landlord, the Environmental Health, the council, and the CAB and quite frankly none of them want to know. The council told me I'd need to fill in a form with precise times and durations of all the distrubances over a four week period. Absolute hogwash!! I'm really going to get up every night at 2 am and then again at 3 or 4 am to log rows, and barking dogs. I'd be barking mad myself from lost sleep after a week.

This particular neightbour also child-minds - non-registered I hasten to add - and yet when I mentioned this to the council as well, they took absolutely no action whatsoever.

Most of my teaching is not done at home. I'm fortuate that I have facilities available to me where I can teach, and in other cases I visit the students house. My MU membership covers me for Third Party insurance, so I have no worries there either. When I practice at home, I am always mindful of others by using a room on the outside or the house and using a heavy mute on my violin if I know I'll be playing late into the evening.

Shame others around me can't have the same courtesy

An extra 2% because their pet died? That's outrageous! To say nothing of building up problems for the future. I can't imagine going into a performance review and saying, "My step-sister died last year. I need an extra 2% on top of this year's pay increase to help me come to terms with it". Might just as well put GCSE certificates in cereal packets.

Semele - nothing wrong with a glass of wine, but try not to make it a pint glass!

To go back to the original topic: if you are blurring the facts about sources of income and rented property, and what you actually do there, what next after being found out? Eviction? Possibly. A reference for future tenancies? Unlikely. As tempting as it might be to think, "I've read Mr bluefrets' posts, he never got caught, so I should be fine too", take the long view (and see comments above about extra marks because someone's hamster fell asleep at the wheel).

And a stream of young men visiting regularly for half an hour at a time happens. A friend was renting out a flat to someone who had such a stream of visitors, and no, her tenant wasn't giving piano lessons

Ugh, poor you Amanda! That must be horrible. Walking up the road from the back of my house the other day I heard music (hah, "music"...) being blasted out from a house that was able to be heard about 3 streets away - so glad I don't live near there, I couldn't cope at all. I don't understand how people can be so inconsiderate

QUOTE (Deborah @ May 9 2005, 04:41 PM)

Might just as well put GCSE certificates in cereal packets.

Yeah, why not? They already use that system for driving licences it seems.

Our neighbours seem to like loud "music" at 2, 3 and 4am. Also there always seems to be broken glass outside, and numerous bodged attempts to patch up broken windows, doors. etc. Who'd have neighbours?

QUOTE (uberzoldat @ May 9 2005, 05:21 PM)

QUOTE (Deborah @ May 9 2005, 04:41 PM) Might just as well put GCSE certificates in cereal packets. Yeah, why not? They already use that system for driving licences it seems.

Nah, for driving licenses it's a lottery, that's why some terrible drivers pass first time & others bemuse their driving instructors who know perfectly well they can drive by taking 4 goes.

In Texas you can get a full driving license without taking a lesson or a test. Scary but true.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 06:24 PM)

In Texas you can get a full driving license without taking a lesson or a test. Scary but true.

Ah, so that's where half the people in my town got their licenses from!!

Even the Texan friend who told me that thought it was insane. Apparently it was under review, so may now have changed...

QUOTE

Texas law: No, you can get your permit (can only drive with someone 18+ who has had their license for one full year... none of that daylight/nighttime stuff here that Jen mentioned) at 15, license at 16. But you have to hold the permit for 6 months. Here, you can get your permit at 15. After you hold your permit for however long is required, then you get your license I had to pass the test (which isn't "written" anymore, it's on a computer) to get my permit. But not to get my license. I think if I went through Driver's Ed I would have had to, but my parents taught me. So we just had to submit the paperwork saying what we did (which blows my mind because for all they know we just wrote in dates and driving hours... we didn't. lol. But I wonder how many people do). So I just took one test.

Insane...

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 08:06 PM)

Insane...

I agree. There must be a lot of incompetent drivers over there. But then on the other hand, there are a lot of incompetent drivers here too, even after taking two tests to get a license. I think you should have to take your test more often to make sure you're not a danger to yourself and others. I have been dangerously cut up twice on separate occasions at the same junction and by the same elderly driver. Maybe we'd be safer in Texas?

Not from what Beth has said - but I agree, there are plenty of incompetants here... instructors who coach people to pass the test rather than teach them to drive are one problem (I had a friend at school who passed without ever having driven in the dark or in adverse weather conditions, or basically on any other roads than test routes....! and suddenly she's allowed to drive on the motorway etc...?), people who really should have given up but pass on a fluke are another (a couple of my friends have passed who reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally should not have )... but the really dangerous people are those who can actually drive, and could actually drive considerately, but don't care two hoots about the other road users and drive only to get themselves where they want to be... That's an attitude problem and not one that can be solved by tests...

Yeah, it's an awful thing to say, but some older drivers really need to be retested sooner - they are a danger to themselves, let alone others. My mum's neighbour can't look over *either* shoulder or even turn his head effectively, and has lost a lot of the finer motor controls in his arms and legs... and yet he's still legal to drive and insurable... he *doesn't* drive, but he'd be allowed to if he was that crazy... the problem is, there are some very decent and considerate older drivers out there who probably would struggle to pass a test these days but are perfectly safe (I can think of one old lady especially from church who must be in her 80s... she doesn't drive masses, but can't walk so well and would be stuck without a car - I'm certain she wouldn't pass a driving test through nerves if nothing else, but she's a good driver and very safe because she is cautious and considerate...) so... what's to be done?

From what Beth said... no, you wouldn't be safer in Texas...

Ho hum. I guess that shows that categorising people never solves anything. It's mostly the individuals.

Yes... if drivers would somehow magically get fined for being inconsiderate or impatient on the roads - automagically, you might say - then the standards of driving in many cases would shoot up...

QUOTE

if drivers would somehow magically get fined for being inconsiderate or impatient on the roads - automagically, you might say - then the standards of driving in many cases would shoot up...

or if they could get FIRED - even better!

M

Yes, preferably from a comic oversized cannon.

I think it's true the main danger from people driving on the roads is not so much competence and ability to drive (which is all that is tested in the driving test, although I have to say the driving test is just a lottery since they have to fail a large quota of people); but it's attitude, some people really are very irresponsible and impatient: the best driving test would not be ability to drive (at least not in the sense of you changed up gear late three times so you failed) but a test of attitude to see how sensible and responsible people are. Unfortunately it's very hard to test.

As it stands the driving test is a little pointless as everyone just takes it again and again until they do pass; it's not a case of if people pass but when they pass by managing to hold it together just for 30 minutes or whatever.

QUOTE

I think it's true the main danger from people driving on the roads is not so much competence and ability to drive (which is all that is tested in the driving test, although I have to say the driving test is just a lottery since they have to fail a large quota of people); but it's attitude, some people really are very irresponsible and impatient: the best driving test would not be ability to drive (at least not in the sense of you changed up gear late three times so you failed) but a test of attitude to see how sensible and responsible people are. Unfortunately it's very hard to test.

If not impossible to test! Anyone (or most) can be sensible when they really have to be, but once they are let loose..........

Competence and ability are one thing, but what a lot of drivers lack is spatial awareness and general road sense. They simply drive blind and don't put their brain into gear before putting the car into gear. I particularly loathe driving in central London for this very reason - it appears to attract the dumbest drivers of all.

I think the driving test should be far more comprehensive to include some skid training, basic understanding of what goes on under the bonnet - why a car needs oil for instance!! - some sort of reaction testing (in addition to the emergency stop which everyone anticipates anyway, and in reality an emergency can never be anticipated - if it could it wouldn't be an emergency would it ), plus cover some basic knowledge of motorway driving.

As it currently stands, a half hour of driving around suburbia followed by the issuing of a piece of paper (given on the opinion of one person) allows you out onto the road in all weathers, all traffic conditions and on any road - in control of what is effectively a guided missile - is, to put it mildly, quite daft

What never ceases to amaze me is the amount of people who pass their test, don't drive at all for about three years and then expect to just get back behind the wheel without any refresher. I think regular assessments after your test - with perhaps two a year for the first two years - should be part of the basic licencing procedure.

A pilots licence has to be renewed every year, whether it's a private licence or commercial and there's far more traffic on the road than there are aircraft in the air.........

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 10 2005, 12:33 PM)

QUOTE the best driving test would not be ability to drive (at least not in the sense of you changed up gear late three times so you failed) but a test of attitude to see how sensible and responsible people are. Unfortunately it's very hard to test. If not impossible to test! Anyone (or most) can be sensible when they really have to be, but once they are let loose..........

Too true it's impossible to test!

QUOTE

Competence and ability are one thing, but what a lot of drivers lack is spatial awareness and general road sense. They simply drive blind and don't put their brain into gear before putting the car into gear. I particularly loathe driving in central London for this very reason - it appears to attract the dumbest drivers of all.

*nods* - at least some people realise their driving isn't that great, and are extra careful... the scary people are those who really think they're great drivers... ARGH!

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 10 2005, 06:27 PM)

*nods* - at least some people realise their driving isn't that great, and are extra careful... the scary people are those who really think they're great drivers... ARGH!

Yes, I know what you mean. Someone I know is blind in one eye and has a cataract in the other, and still drives. She lives near a very dangerous main road and says she only drives around her small little village, but she has to go across a crossroads at that main road to get there.