Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone had any clever tricks to help learn these scales, particularly Eb and G# minors. Usually I play them a couple of times slowly, sometimes with the music, sometimes not depending on how scary they look on paper - lol - then I just keep playing them and gradually speed up as my competency increases. But these two scales I'm just finding difficult to play accurately even slowly. Any tips? Bb's not so bad, a bit awkward in places but not terrible, but those two are really giving me problems. I'm trying to learn both melodic and harmonic - any opinions which is easiest to start with?

Thanks folks...

Sarah

dont talk about those scales, i hate them!

i can do Eb minor, but ive been trying to learn G# and Bb melodic and harmonic minors for g6 clarinet and im like i cant do them!

Didn't occur to me that the same scales'd be evil on the clarinet as the flute! *sigh* all the majors are ok, some of them need practice obviously but I know I'll get there... most of the minors are doable. these two scales are nasty!

lol

my majors are ok mostly as well........but the minors....argh.. they make me want to cry

Rightly or wrongly I haven't actually played the scales from any written out version but from how they should sound & a mental picture (at least to start with) of where the notes fall on the piano. I think i'm now playing those awkward black note ones from my fingers remembering the pattern rather than from saying the notes to myself.
For me it seems to be down to repetition & also I work on 5 note sections within the scale and then put it back together.

QUOTE (Andy-piano-flute @ May 5 2005, 06:37 PM)

Rightly or wrongly I haven't actually played the scales from any written out version but from how they should sound & a mental picture (at least to start with) of where the notes fall on the piano. I think i'm now playing those awkward black note ones from my fingers remembering the pattern rather than from saying the notes to myself.

I TRY to do both - because I know I do eventually need to know how it looks on paper! Sometimes I learn the scale then look at it, sometimes I find it easier to learn it then see how it looks on paper, sometimes it's a bit of both - ie look at the music to see what the notes are, then ignore it until I know how it goes and need to see what it actually looks like

QUOTE

For me it seems to be down to repetition & also I work on 5 note sections within the scale and then put it back together.

I think I'm going to have to do that - small sections - with those two scales becfore I can even do the repetition thing!

The way I learn scales is to picture the finger combinations, rather than the letter names, in my head. So in G# minor, for instance, I imagine that there's a huge gap from E to G (F##), as you 'miss out' the F, and tricks like that really help me, because when I next look at the scale I remember: Oh yeah, that's the one with the gap, or that's the one with two Fs (Bb minor, with F and Gb (same fingering as F#).
Sorry, this might sound quite confusing to you! Those scales are not very pleasant while you're learning them, I know, but it's immensely satisfying to play them when you've learnt them!

Yes, Charlotte, I do know exactly what you mean! Glad someone else thinks that way.

I had someone suggest to me using the Bb paddle key - the one on the front of the flute - which apparently makes it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier - never even occurred to me, going to try it...

it helps...

Another suggestion: try playing a simple piece in the key you're struggling with. Frere Jacques will work in both major and minor versions (listen to Mahler's 1st symphony if you want to hear a minor version - 2nd movement I think). Somehow this seems to help with fixing some of the difficult notes (like that Fx) more clearly in one's memory.

Replying to my own posts now.. how sad.

I've just been playing around on my treble recorder, where I'm having all the same problems with some of these awkward minor scales that my students do on the flute.

Three blind mice works really well in a minor version. When you get to the third line ('they all ran after the farmer's wife' etc.), you can play each of the three lines in a different version of the minor scale. Eg in E minor: first time with C# and D#, second time with C and D, and third time with C and D#.

Freudian slip: I wrote 'they all ran off with the farmer's wife' first time. Goodness knows where my mind has been this morning.

Though using the Bb thumb key on Bb minor can sound really terrible if you forget to take it off for F#3!!!

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ May 6 2005, 12:20 PM)

Freudian slip: I wrote 'they all ran off with the farmer's wife' first time. Goodness knows where my mind has been this morning.

Oh dear!

Thanks Andante, that's a good idea - hadn't though of that (d'oh!)

Tried both the scales just now in my practice time when I got home from work and they don't seem quite so impossible... probably was partly just yet another new scale and evil ones to boot! I think all these tips will help though.

Charlotte: haven't tried Bb minor today, but the key I was recommended to use was not the thumb key but the alternative long Bb on the front of the flute. No idea whether it would help in Bb minor, but seems to in G#. Yet another book I've been recommended to buy - Walfrid Kujala's "Vade Mecum". Oh if I could just max out my credit card... *grin*

On the basis that I ought not to preach what I haven't practised, I tried out the 'Three Blind Mice' idea with two of my students this afternoon. We got as far as exploring the basic idea in a major key and an easier minor key (E minor for the one doing Grade 6 and G minor for the Grade 7), and I've left them to get really familiar with playing the tune by ear before we try it on E flat or G sharp minors.

I've also tried it myself in lots of different keys on the treble recorder, where I'm having all sorts of difficulties with the scales. It's not helped that I can't think of them with the treble fingering without the descant fingering interfering. Still, 'Three Blind but Sad Mice' (as I'm mentally calling the minor version) works well - I just have to spend time working out which key I'm playing in. I'd call it 'Three Blue Mice' but I think that title's already been pinched by Terence Greaves

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ May 6 2005, 09:29 PM)

It's not helped that I can't think of them with the treble fingering without the descant fingering interfering.

hmmm... that must be annoying... this will only help if you play the clarinet at all (well, it's possible) but it's really really similar to the low register on there. I always found the best way to really adjust to treble fingering was to NOT think about it too hard - your ears and your hands have the skill you need, I know that I find I have problems when my conscious brain interferes too much! Harder with scales because they're more of a conscious-type thing, and you have masses more experience than me so I'm probably saying stuff you already know! But that's just what I have found helps. Probably also helps that I hated descant, and when I got to secondary school and had the chance to play treble I played it as much as possible and have only ever played descant since under protest, so I guess I'm more used to those fingerings now!

Oh, I got advised to use that paddle key, only my finger doesn't want to reach it!

You use the side of your finger for the B flat key, so your finger is still over the F key but just angled slightly. Since discovering it a few years ago, I use it all the time when I'm wanting to keep my thumb on the B natural key.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 6 2005, 05:11 PM)

Charlotte: haven't tried Bb minor today, but the key I was recommended to use was not the thumb key but the alternative long Bb on the front of the flute. No idea whether it would help in Bb minor, but seems to in G#.

Oh right! I'll try that as well then!

It just seems really far away, I have thin fingers, but I am sure I will get used to it!

QUOTE (july @ May 7 2005, 09:45 AM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 6 2005, 05:11 PM) Charlotte: haven't tried Bb minor today, but the key I was recommended to use was not the thumb key but the alternative long Bb on the front of the flute. No idea whether it would help in Bb minor, but seems to in G#. Oh right! I'll try that as well then!

It's worth a try

Bb melodic minor & G# melodic minor are almost defeating me. I have tried to remember them in any number of different ways- mental pictures of where the notes fall on the piano, names of notes, finger patterns... I have practised them in sections, starting from the top, the turn at the top. ..You name it I have probably tried it & yet every time I start to play either of them I always mess it up on the first time. Not the going up but the turn/ coming down.
Do I just have to hope that repetition will eventually force them into my brain?
I know it's probably not helped by the fact that I am supposed to be doing the exam this time so I'm feeling more & more wound up about everything. I know I could just not do it & lose the money but that seems very defeatist?

they are evil, but...

Don't forget, they are only two of heaps and heaps of scales, there's no guarantee those two will be picked... and even if they are, your scale grade is based on how you play all of them, not just two out of them.

In my flute exam I was petrified and had to start at least one of my scales twice (it had never occurred to me to ask if it was OK to play them again, till my friend who accompanied me and gave me a lift to the centre told me so on the way in that morning!), and asked to repeat one of them because it went really badly... and I got 19/21 with the comment "Well known and secure at a suitable tempo. Just the odd small blemish" - much better than I had expected. Having to try again on one or two is NOT the kiss of death for your scales except with a really evil examiner.

And worse case scenario... your scale mark is only part of your overall mark, and even for "very poor, incomplete response, sporadic and uneven, very slow tempo, technically totally inadequate" the guideline mark is 7-10! I am certain you will play them a whole heap better than that, even those two.

I'm sure your teacher would not have entered you if she(he?) didn't think you stood a good chance of a decent grade, so try not to worry about it too much, (easier said than done I know!) all you can do is your best. I'm sure you will pass and probably do really well, and even if you didn't, it's not the end of the world and to be going for grade 7 after a relatively very short time playing is really impressive, so just do your best and I bet you will surprise yourself...

I agree... they are evil scales... but it's only two of them, and even then they are bound to improve by the time your exam comes round.

What ever the notes are called on paper, find the way that makes sense to you and stick to it. Some of my students find G# minor easier to think of as A flat minor (and the arpeggio is definitely easier that way).

The other thing that may help is finding some sight reading in those keys (some of Simon Hunt's study books are good for this). I'm sure one of the reasons these scales are difficult is that we rarely encounter them in pieces.

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ May 11 2005, 01:39 PM)

I'm sure one of the reasons these scales are difficult is that we rarely encounter them in pieces.

And when we do we go "erk" and choose another piece well I do... bad habit...

wel im almost giving up on them too!

but i can now do G#minor both forms wooo!!!

When I do these scales I find my fingers just know where to go instinctively. (be sure to use long b flat in both) I know them well now, but when I was learning them it was painstaking work. The way to work them out is to take the relative major key siganture and raise 7th, but I think more of intervals (eg, finishes on a semitone, minor 3rd, semitone). Once you know scales, you can play them without much conscious thought. (you may disagree though )

Good luck

QUOTE (neil.clarinet @ May 16 2005, 09:03 AM)

Once you know scales, you can play them without much conscious thought. (you may disagree though )

Absolutely... it's just getting to know them in the first place that's hard

Though I find that you have to keep on playing them, otherwise my fingers forget them within a month!

They're both beginning to make sense to me now, so there's hope for me yet!