Hi, I'm learning Beethoven's moonlight sonata. I was wondering what grade level you should be at to play it.

I believe the ABRSM classify the Beethoven Sonatas as grade six plus. The complete Moonlight Sonata is on the DipABRSM syllabus: but bear in mind the third movement is what particularly makes it difficult. Many people say they are playing the 'Moonlight Sonata' but only mean the first movement.

Incidentally, before I started learning to play the piano (properly with a teacher...) I learnt the first movement of it (I'm sure it wouldn't have passed diploma standard) so it is possible to learn without any lessons (solely the knowledge gained from (not particularly advanced) primary school recorder lessons and being told that the notes in the spaces of bass clef are ACEG ) although reading it with little fluency is quite arduous!

However, to do a good, musically convincing job of just the first movement I would say a good grade 5 student/a grade 6 student (that's just my guess though; I'm no authority on these matters...).

Basically you can do it at any time; the standard to which you play it will depend on your skills as a pianist.

hi all,

Mmmm...this is a piece very close to my heart ! In fact, it is the reason I learnt to play piano 3 - 4 yrs ago

I believe this is a grade 5/6 piece. I learnt this well before I got my grade 1 but I do love the piece which I think made me plod through it.

It was a little difficult in parts but if you like a particular piece, you tend to be determined to do it !

After that, I did Chopin Nocturne E b - again which I love.

It doesn't really matter what grade you are. If you are determined to complete because you love it so much, you will !

Stick with it. You can do it

Fiona

Hi Fiona,

I find reading what you have done in playing the piano quite bizzare: I too learnt* the (first movement of, I'm not sure if you're talking about the whole thing or not) 'Moonlight' sonata before grade 1 and learnt* the second movement of 'Pathetique' before grade two (not officially as a piece with my teacher just on my own..) and also did a similar thing with the early grades: I took one year to do grade one (and a lot of convincing that I did actually want to do exams and wouldn't appear silly...) and then another year to do grade two; then a two exam periods between grades two and three. Each time I made sure I was well above the standard required for the grades as I would have felt too nervous to do them otherwise!

I thought it was quite a strange coincidence.

*(Usual disclaimer stating I am not disillusioned that my performance of the pieces is/was as good as that of, say, Alfred Brendel or many other pianists with more experience for that matter: I say this because I don't want to appear hypocritical with regard to other posts as I do find it very irritating when people say I'm grade eight standard because I can play these three pieces (not brilliantly) and nothing else!).

Hi Anotherpianist,

I too am doing 2nd movement Pathetique !! Bizzare or what?

I also keep picking at Clair de Lune.
I have completed 1st mvmnt Moonlight and trying the 2nd mvmnt.
Not as bad as I thought actually.

As you said, my teacher always makes sure I am usually a grade above the grade I am going to to in an exam.

Don't know about you, but I'm terrible at sight reading !
I know thats a common thing but it always amazes my teacher that I can do the above pieces and then struggle at GII/III sight reading and exam pieces !

Fiona

I share your problem...

Originally I hated sight reading; not the idea of it, I just thought it would be really difficult to get good at. I never really became good at sight reading earlier for two reasons: the first was when I was young and wanted to play pieces I could play by ear (not anything amazing just pick out the melody with one finger!) and I didn't trust that if I was reading the music of something I didn't know that it'd be correct and I had no way of knowing if I was playing the right thing or not (I had no teacher...) so I just played things I had heard.

The other problem was when slightly later I came across other pieces I wanted to play 'properly' so to speak, such as Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata they were too difficult for me with my level of skill at the time to read real-time. I literally had to learn it by memorising it; reading the notes once and then teaching my hands to play it a few bars at a time (incidentally, this sounds silly now, but I didn't think to try it hands seperately ). This method of playing it means I'm very good at memorising things but isn't much help in sight reading.

After that, having decided that I was going to do exams, I was paranoid that I couldn't do sight reading; so I worked (and still do...) really hard on it. I make an effort to do as much sight reading as possible; I find Paul Harris's 'Improve your sight reading' books very helpful, not necessarily because of the text and the teaching advice just because of the large number of examples at the appropriate standard.

I've always done the Paul Harris book a grade ahead of the one I'm taking and done some of the examples from the specimin tests for the next grade (although not too many because it's useful to have them at the next grade) and then I've managed to do reasonably well in the exams (18, 18 and 19 out of 21).

One thing I always find really difficult is to carry on and not correct my mistakes, I am always compelled to go back and correct them; this is especially not good in atonal music where even the right notes sound like a mistake!

I do find the main limitation to how much sight reading I can do to not be my willingness/time available to practice, the fact that I don't have enough music: it would get quite expensive buying lots of books to only play the pieces once (well I can usually reuse pieces two or three times, it's almost as good...). I think that someone needs to publish a big thick book: 6000 practice sight reading tests for grade X piano! (Incidentally do you know of any similar books ?)

I wish I could say I hate sight reading but it's something I'd really love to be able to do well; still that's motivation to work on it!

I know exactly what you mean. I too learn all my pieces as you describe.

Bar by bar, my fingers remember it and the next thing you know, I've not looked at the music right the way thru.

I can usually complete a shorter piece after about 3 - 4 times of playing it.

This isn't through choice i might add. It just seems to happen if you know what I mean

I'm the same with sight reading. I try and correct myself when I make a mistake. V frustrating !
Unfortunatley, I don't know of anybooks for sight reading other the ones you mentioned.
As you have probably already been told, 'you should read as much music as you can' as my teacher says !

It's funny we have the same things in common. I wonder if it's something to do with being able to play by ear. Automatically knowing which part of the keyboard to touch.

Thats how I tend to play nursery rhymes for my kids. Find the melody and then put something together with the LH

It would be interseting to know how many people are like this do n't you think?

QUOTE

Unfortunatley, I don't know of anybooks for sight reading other the ones you mentioned.

I really like the Sight-Reading Source Books by Alan Bullard, but unfortunately they only seem to go up to grade 3 at the moment, so I suspect they are lower than your grade.
I very much hope there are more in the pipeline!

They have around 90 to 100 examples in each book.

Maggie

Thanks for the suggestion Maggie; unfortunatley I did grade three in November!

I think that the sightreading may be down to both being able to play by ear and the way we learnt. I don't know about you, but when I was learning the pieces that were too hard to read quickly and was playing each section over again I always went back to correct my mistakes: problem one with sightreading . Also I think perhaps the reason we can remember things easily is that (subconsciously) we only have to remember the sound of the piece, which is a lot easier than all the notes, and that can give a good clue to what the note will be even if we don't actually remember it exactly.

I don't think it's all down to playing by ear though, my boyfriend (and teacher: and before anyone gets worried he was my boyfriend for three years before he was my teacher and is the same age as me ) has perfect pitch but he's been learning with a teacher since he was six, he can play by ear far better than me (for obvious reasons...) but he is also brilliant (sickeningly so!) at sight reading: probably because he never relied on doing that to learn pieces, I don't know though.

Perhaps we just didn't read the music for as much of the time as in the traditional approach because we'd already remembered it when we had to to play it; whereas if someone did read the music every time they practiced it they'd get more reading experience. Another problem I did get with the Beethoven is that I could only start the piece from a few fixed points: I couldn't start from just anywhere and play it and if I got stuck the music wasn't particularly much help in starting again from where I was; did you experience this or not?

Recently I've tried to stop learning the harder pieces and concentrate one ones nearer to to the level of the exams I'm doing (it's hard to do as there are so many brilliant pieces I would love to play: I've got them all lined up as when I've done grade X I can play this! Also I think that I will do a better job of them if I leave them until later) and I find that this way I can play the pieces without having to memorise the whole thing first. Having said that I do still very quickly memorise it anyway but I can't help that and I suppose it's not necessarily a bad thing, but there is now a short while there (a few days) where I can play the piece but not without the music, so I can read these pieces real-time. I did have a look at the first movement of the Moonlight sonata again the other day (I was inspired by this) and I can now definitly read it far better than I could (which is good since I've forgotten some bits) and can read the music to be of some help to me now!

All this does of course give us a good technique for exams though, if you play it through in the 30 seconds beforehand and remember what it sounds like you can do the real thing both from the music and by ear (although that assumes you get it right the first time...) but I think that I do use this technique a little.

The problem with just reading anything is that we only have harder pieces: say minimm grade two exam pieces but mostly above grade four exam pieces (never mind sight reading) around the house and I do try to read those but harder pieces encourage me to get more into the habbit of stopping to correct and don't promote fluency since they're hard to read. Having said all of this I wouldn't say I've got a big sight reading problem: I just have to work a lot harder on it than on other things!

I've never met anyone else who learnt in this way it would be interesting to know if other people do the same; I suspect it may be due to the temptation, if you can play harder pieces, to skip to higher grades and miss out the foundation stuff and just struggle with sightreading, what do you think?

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Mar 17 2004, 01:51 PM)

Another problem I did get with the Beethoven is that I could only start the piece from a few fixed points: I couldn't start from just anywhere and play it and if I got stuck the music wasn't particularly much help in starting again from where I was; did you experience this or not?

I am exactly the same ! In fact I am with all the bigger pieces (Chopin, Debussy)

All the music I play is comitted to memory after a few times of playing it. Whether it be a hard piece like Beethoven or just a GII/III exam work.

I don't know about you, but I find it frustrating when this happens. Not so much memorising it but memorising it so quickly. As I said before, this is not intentional.

My teacher always tries to make me keep my eyes on the music and feel my way with the notes on the keyboard. But I think he's given up now !

I wouldn't feel too confident doing higher grades than the level I'm currently at. I know I could learn the pieces and scales etc for the exam, but I don't have enough experience musically to be able to just play a piece of music put in front of me at the sight reading test. So I am just sticking to doing each grade as it comes and building up from there really.

Like you were saying, I don't really feel too bad about my sight reading ability. It's just a case of gaining more experience.

To be honest, just recently I seem to have got better almost overnight !The other day I did actually sight read a whole piece of music start to finish which is something I have never done before !
Granted, it was only JS Bach Prelude and Fugue in C but it was two pages long and I read it right through with minimal errors. Must admit I did correct myself the odd occasion But I didn't play it too many times to memorise it either!!!

Nevertheless, it has really boosted my confidence to read other pieces from my piano bench. I think playing harder pieces has made a difference to sight reading for me.

Do you think that your sight reading has been helped by playing harder pieces than the grade you are at ?

Memorising things quickly doesn't bother me too much: the only problem that comes if I read something incorrectly once or twice I'm likely to remember it that way and then not notice (until it's pointed out to me...). I think though that occasionally everyone gets the odd wrong note into one piece or another (perhaps not quite as frequently though). Some people really struggle with remembering pieces when they want to play from memory: at least we'll never suffer from that . I do sometimes have to force myself to look at the music (I find difficult passages easier to learn if I look at my hands) and a lot of the time I just don't look at either my hands or the music as my hands just know what they're doing! But if there are notes on the music of things that I forget to do (some slurs or dynamics circled etc.) then I have to look at it so that I remember. I do also find that my reading is slowed down by having to read fingering as well (but I suppose that's likely to be true of anyone).

I would never do higher grades without doing the foundation work either: like you, I could learn the pieces and the scales and then my strategy would have to be to get above what I need on them to compensate for a potentially low mark on sightreading-I could give it a go and get some marks but not many! I just feel like by doing this I would have achieved nothing: I'd have learnt three more pieces (and many many many scales!) but I would actually be no better at playing the piano. Besides I want a nice set of matching certificates!

I don't know if I would say that playing harder pieces has helped my sightreading: I suppose they will make the sight reading seem easier in comparison! But I think that perhaps playing more pieces at a lower standard would have resulted in better sight reading simply because I'd then have spent more time reading and less time 'training my hands' so to speak. Then again there are things that I learnt from doing the harder pieces that I probably wouldn't have learnt from many smaller pieces: bringing out the top notes of the melody, pedalling and there's more scope for expression in them too. Also if I didn't have the pieces that I liked to play I wouldn't have been as motivated to play as much so I don't know if I would actually have more experience!

Congratulations on the Bach by the way it always feels good when you actually manage to play something that isn't just a little made up test without having seen it before. That's part of the reason that I think it would be so good to be a brilliant sight reader.

Never mind. I'm sure we will get the hang of sight reading eventually !

Did you find yourself come to a stand still at some point of playing piano ?

I'm not sure how old you are (not that it makes any difference!) but I wondered if it was an adult thing.

I'm 32 and obviously a late starter regardless of playing violin for years previously.
I seemed to do bits and bats for ages not really noticing a marked improvement and then all of a sudden, you're off !
Some of it is probably confidence too. Especially with adults that get out of the habit of doing exams.

It would be interesting to know if adults have this more than young students.

Fiona

I'm 22 (just); I started playing (well being taught...) when I was 18 so yes, I did start fairly late. I was, at the time, in my first year of University (Computer Science not Music...) so I hadn't really got out of the habit of doing exams, in fact I was well into it! I'd never done a grade music exam before (the nearest I got was GCSE music) so it was rather different to the exams was used to. Incidentally I'm now doing a PhD so I'm still a student. An amusing story: at my last exam (in November) the examiner asked me what year of school I was in and was quite embarassed when I replied with 'I'm a PhD student' He was very friendly though.

I don't think that I had a definite stand-still point; sometimes I don't feel like I've improved much and then I suprise myself by doing something better than I've usually been doing it (perhaps like you playing the Bach) I have a particularly horrible ornament that I'm working on at the moment that is taking ages . I certainly don't find progress to be linear: it does tend to level off and then jump generally.

I think that perhaps adults are more conscious of making progress than children I think that children may be happy to say that they play and instrument and think slightly less about how they progress (although their teachers make sure of this) and are concerned about having fun (quite a happy situation really). That is at least until their friends come along and are on a higher grade

i read on www.music-scores.com that the 1st movement is a level of 5/9 the second movement 5/9 and 3rd movement 7/9

I think you are probably right there Apianaist.

Have you seen the web site that young pianist has just posted? It's quite good. Thanks for that.

What is the 9 for in 5/9 rating for example? There isn't a G9 is there ?

I should read the web site later properly to find out. I have only had a quick browse.

Fiona

QUOTE

the only problem that comes if I read something incorrectly once or twice I'm likely to remember it that way and then not notice (until it's pointed out to me...).

It's fascinating reading other people's accounts of how they learn pieces.

Some of my younger students certainly have a problem like the one quoted. It's really difficult than to get them to change or add any thing (DYNAMICS PLEASE!) or worse, getting them to notice a pencil mark that has been ignored for 2 weeks !! lol

My own learning style was always quite different, as I was a good sight-reader, and it was learning something thoroughly that I was always really bad at when I was young. It was useful being able to sight-read, for sure, but it had its down side as well. I think when you are growing up you don't realise that everyone doesn't learn the same way as you - at least it took me a while to take that on board.

I gradually learnt to play by ear too, but that came a bit later - probably alongside an understanding of harmony once I got to that stage in theory.

Maggie

Hi Maggiemay,

It's nice to hear that someone learns the same way as I do like APianist.

I have spent ages trying to change the way I learn, but it doesn't work.

I have accepted that this is the way my brain does things and there's no point fighting it !

Sightreading will get better with time. I read enough music I suppose.

I know what you mean about adding dynamics etc !
I too am guilty of that.
This tends to come after I have learnt the piece or rather doesn't happen very easily because I don't look at the music due to memorising it !

Now, I try to make a concious effort to add the dynamics with each phrase I learn. So by the time I have memorised the music, the dynamics are there too !(In theory of course!)

Lets see if I can train myself to do it all the time !

Fiona

I was just looking at that website and its ratings of pieces; as I said I'm not particularly good myself at judging how 'hard' pieces are (so if anyone is please correct me!) but I do feel slightly suspicious of their ratings:

Is Fur Elise (and yes I am aware of all of it!) really as hard as the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight sonata? Is the second movement of Pathetique really as hard as the third? I know someone who is doing Pathetique for a diploma and he says not...

Perhaps it's something to do with being able to play the pieces well e.g. to play the second movement well you'd need a nice cantabile tone so if you've got one it would be easy; if you haven't very difficult (you'd have to develop one...). In the third movement that's less of an issue but I should imagine getting the notes and the speed would be more complex; I doubt it's really that deep though.

I wouldn't really agree with their ratings. I'd be interested to hear what everone else thinks.

The scale doesn't appear to link to anything grades-wise inparticular; I would think that it's their own scale to rate the pieces on, so relative difficulty is what I think you should rely on rather than saying 'this piece is grade X'.

Any thoughts?

I've spent quite some time changing the way I learn too: essentially trying to get the good parts of both! I've had a reasonable amount of success in changing my ways I'm certainly better at reading now and if I play pieces at the right level (which I now endeavor to do) I'm not just playing by 'hand training' so to speak so my brain is more able to interrupt and correct wrong things (wrong notes, missing dynamics etc.).

It's quite strange: I always thought the way I was doing it must be 'wrong' so to speak which was why I tried to change it; it's interesting to hear that other people do that, maybe it wasn't wrong after all! Either way I think that changing and seeing other ways to do things has made me better (even if it's just because I've done more practice!) because my playing is now more conscious and more adjustable.

Now I always learn things hands seperately first too: I get told off if I don't .

I don't personally think that Fur Elise (the full piece) is as hard as moonlight.
I did this piece quicker and before moonlight.
As you said, the ratings on the web site I think are more a sort of x out of 10 if you like.

As for learning pieces APianist, I always felt that I was learning the wrong way if thats what you meant. This too is why I tried to change my technique but I feel better now that I know someone else who does it the same as me !

Fiona

Oh, I'm sorry for the confusion. The level is if you were rating the piece a 1 to 9 the first movement would be a 5 which would be fairly hard. (That's as hrad as I can play pieces, a level 5. Sad, huh?) I hope you can understand it now, and I also truly enjoy that website! I think it helps when you need to know what a piece sounds like. But I don't really agree on the ratings some times...

Hope it helps.

QUOTE (YoungPianist @ Mar 18 2004, 06:12 PM)

Oh, I'm sorry for the confusion. The level is if you were rating the piece a 1 to 9 the first movement would be a 5 which would be fairly hard. (That's as hrad as I can play pieces, a level 5. Sad, huh?)

And whats wrong with playing pieces at level 5 ?
It isn't 'sad' In fact I think it's good actually!

Don't put yourself down!

The main thing is that you enjoy playing music anyway. The level is insignificant.

As long as you enjoy it, thats all that matters. Don't even consider the level.
I might be able to play a level 5 piece but believe me, I can struggle very easily on a level 3 too !

Keep up the good work and keep on enjoying !


Fiona

Thanks for bringing me up, I thought everyone around here played at like a level 8!!

Liz

Well I don't.

I'm just prepating for my GIII piano exam. I only play harder pieces because I enjoy them. Even if they are hard work to learn !

You can learn any piece you like if you perservere. It may be difficult, but that doesn't matter if you are determined to finish it !

Do you have any pieces you really want to play that are a little difficult ?

Fiona

No, I really don't have any real hard pieces that I want to play, but do you have any recomandations? Mainly, I just go alnog with what my piano teacher gives me, but lately I've been doing some piano duets with her which is really fun. And I think we are going to start some jazz, just so I don't have to play classical ALL THE TIME. But I would really like it if you wound recomend some pieces.

Thanks for all your help, Fiona.

Liz

It depends on what music you like really.

I play mainly classical but I do like jazz and other music too.

I shall give you some of my favourites.

If you like Moonlight, chances are you probably like Fur Elise too if you haven't already done this.

Chopin - Nocturne Eb

JS Bach - Prelude And Fugue in C
Another famous piece. Very easy to sight read so it feels great when you play it start to finish.If you're not sure which it is, you will when you hear it.It's just recently been on a TV advert but I don't know if I'm allowed to give the name !

Leo Delibes - Flower duet from Lakme
Again, another famous piece. You will recognise this too if you dont know it by name.

I know loads of classical pieces, trouble is, I don't know the names. I have to write the piece down as soon as I find out who the composer is !

I do have a Jazz piano book I bought a while ago.
This has got 'Fever' and of course, 'Let there be love'.
I suppose this will be easy to get hold of in easy, medium and hard versions.

A good way of choosing some pieces is listening to some CD's and writing down the name of the pieces you like then find the music.

Just a few to think about if they take your fancy

Let me know what you think,

Fiona

Thanks a lot, Fiona, you've been a real help!!

Liz

Hi Fiona n AnotherPianist,

I was so happy to know that you also can play music by hearing.Well I also like to memories exam pieces because it will be difficult for me to play a song if I don't memorise it. I wish I can improve my sight-reading. I like playing piano by hearing because it gives me some idea on how to know better where the keys belong. Do you agree?

Hi Emma,

I know what you mean. My fingers know instantly where to go once I'm familiar with a piece. Like I said earlier in the thread, it isn't intentional.It's the way I learn.

I too end up memorising exam pieces in the above fashion. If you are used to learning pieces of music this way, then I think it is best left alone.

In saying that, out of my GIII pieces I can only memorise one piece so far. very wierd.
As with sight reading, I think it's just time. If you practise a fair amount anyway and attempt some of your favourite pieces - that are usually a lot higher grade, your reading improves.

I've just noticed these last couple of weeks that I am reading a lot easier than before. I think this is down to experience and trying different pieces.

Fiona

I think that I experience what you are getting: I've always been able to play by ear and when I do that I don't really think about which note is next, my hands just play it with seemingly little intervention from my brain! When I'm sight reading I don't struggle to read the notes it's just getting my hands to play the notes that I'm reading which is the hard part. If I'm reading a piece of music that I know I can usually 'read' it quite well since I play the right hand by ear and read the left hand: that way I only have to think about one hand!

I wouldn't know if it's difficult for me to play something without memorising it since, by the time I've done enough practice to be good at the piece, I've already remembered it. I suppose you could say it's impossible because I can't help remembering it when I play it; not because I can't play it if I haven't remembered it (I don't know if that makes sense!). I don't try to memorise things it just happens.

I've found the only way to improve sightreading is to do lots of practice, eventually it does work but I don't think that there's a quick solution.

I wonder if we will we be rewarded with more marks if we play the pieces without reading the book.My sight-reading was very bad.I can tell you that I can play a song by the chords patern printed,not reading one note by another.I would like to ask how many songs you play everyday to improve your sight-reading?

Unfortunately there are no extra marks in exams for playing without music; however having the music appears to be frowned upon when one reaches DipABRSM level (they say something like 'you are not required to perform from memory but should take notice of current practices usually adopted with your instrument'. So they won't officially take off marks but it may effect their overall impression.

As for sight reading I try to do one or two a day (all the time not just around exams); the amount I do does tend to vary though: if I get in to it I sometimes do two hours at once! Other days I don't get around to doing any; most days I manage to do at least some. Unfortunately, since I don't have that much music around (certainly not a new piece for every day!)I sometimes have to read the same things again: if there's a sufficient gap between me reading a piece once and coming back to it I don't tend to find that it matters too much, unless it has a particularly catchy melody that I remember!

I kind of sight read every time I play piano.

This is mainly due to my higher pieces that I do for my pleasure (Beethoven etc).
I start a new piece and when I've got the hang of the first phrase, I tend to just carry on through the piece to the end mistakes - an all!

This is probably why my reading has improved just recently.

As for the exams, I tend to just read quite a lot with my teacher in the lesson. I can't quite motivate myself at home because I want to do my fave pieces !

Maybe we should have lessons 1/4 hour long dedicated to sight reading only extra to our normal lesson!

Mmmmm......do you reckon?

Fiona

I've been playing music since i was five. I am 17 now. I took 2 years of piano when I was 5. And have played the flute for 7 years. Unfortunately my piano teacher taught me nothing about theory, actually she taught me little more than the notes (I never learned to sight read the treble cleff!). I know the first movement of the moonlight sonata and am learning the 3rd movement now. Does ne 1 have advice for me?

I agree that the first and second movements are easy, in fact I sight read the whole first movement easily. But the 3rd movement is very difficult, with a lot of passages that are the hardest in the whole sonata.

I still think he wrote the last movement to annoy the neighbours whose cat used to sit there and yowl while he was composing the Ode to Cologne (an early draft of the famous ditty in the last movement of the 9th).

hm... i also don't know much about playing moonlight sonata by Beethoven
i love the music very much...and i do learn a bit to play this song but haven't managed to play it all..
it's kinda difficult for me cos u have to widen ur finger as well..
hahaha...i only can do until 1 octave..that's it..
anyway, it's a nice song and creepy too