Hi everyone

I am a private piano teacher and have 35 students at the moment. I have a waiting list of about 15, some of which I would really like to teach. A few of the students I have at the moment are obviously learning because their parents want them to and make no effort at all to practice or show any improvement from week to week. I have mentioned it to their parents a couple of times but it kind of falls on deaf ears. Now that I am in the enviable position of having a waiting list and can therefore be more selective about students, how do I "get rid" of the ones who I feel are wasting my time, their own time and certainly their parents money?
I find it very hard to be assertive and hate the thought of upsetting anybody, but at the end of the day it's my sole business, and these few students are really getting me down.
I would be grateful for any advice that anyone can offer.
Thanks in advance
Tracey

I have heard that a teacher near me puts them 'on trial'.
They have so long to turn things around and show that they want to learn.

Harsh, but essentially fair.

Friend of mine had to let a pupils go recently - he was constantly being informed at the last minute that they didn't want a lesson today thank you. Eventually I think he basically said, look, I have a waiting lost, I don't need to teach your son & you are not honouring your side of the bargain. Quite an extreme case though... I think it would be awful to drop pupils for lack of ability, but those who don't actaully want to play/won't practuce/won;t even try - well I think it's very reasonable to say at the start that those who don't at least put in the effort will be at risk of losing their slot in your teaching time.

I know a teacher who tells unwanted pupils that he is moving to London whenever he needs a clear-out of the hopless and useless. On the rare occasion he bumps into a former pupil\parent subsequently, he claims the move did not work out as intended but that performing commitments have caused him to scale back on his teaching.

That's truly horrible. I'd much rather a teacher came clean with me and said "it's not working out", or "you are not putting in the required effort", or whatever rather than lying so blatantly. I'm sure some former pupils must work out eventually what he's done and be really rather miffed... I'd be livid.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 8 2005, 05:09 PM)

That's truly horrible. I'd much rather a teacher came clean with me and said "it's not working out", or "you are not putting in the required effort", or whatever rather than lying so blatantly. I'm sure some former pupils must work out eventually what he's done and be really rather miffed... I'd be livid.

Possibly. Then again, I have been a full-time private piano teacher for 25 years and have rarely bumped into a former student.

Indeed, you may well prefer your teacher to tell the truth, but would everybody?

I go to enormous lengths to soften the blow when I decide the time has come to part with a pupil because either: they do not attend often enough to make any progress; or they are not good enough\practising enough to make any progress. By 'softening the blow' so much, am I not lying to them as well?

Tracey, I would first of all have another word with the student, and spell out exactly what you want them to practice that week and what results you want to see next lesson, and say that you will need to have a talk with the parents if they haven't been able to do it. Ok, it'll probably fall on deaf ears, but it gives them a definite target and puts you in the perfect position to have a serious talk with the parent the following week if they don't come up to scratch. I would be perfectly honest and explain you have a waiting list, and also as a professional don't feel happy about keeping them on if their heart isn't in it.

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 8 2005, 05:48 PM)

By 'softening the blow' so much, am I not lying to them as well?

There's an awful big difference between softening the slow and telling them you're moving to a different city depends where you live - in the town where I live, I bump into people I know several times every time I leave the house... Plus, at least if you are honest with your pupils, they are able to take something away from it - maybe try a different instrument, or music is not for them, or not to try until they are willing to commit the necessary time & energy. Whereas "I'm moving, sorry" will probably just send them to another teacher who will then have to break the news to them: it's a case of passing the buck... I have to be honest, I think it's appalling.

jpiano: very good advice imo

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I must admit I feel the easy option would be to say, I'm sorry but I can't teach anymore on a Friday or whatever but I think it's better to be honest. I'm just not looking forward to it! I have tried talking to the parents before and had the usual excuses about they do so many other things, they haven't had time etc etc But I think I need to be a bit firmer. Does anyone else find this hard or is it just me? I guess I'm not the "assertive type"!!! Could do with assertiveness training I think!!!

QUOTE (trbro @ May 8 2005, 09:16 PM)

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I must admit I feel the easy option would be to say, I'm sorry but I can't teach anymore on a Friday or whatever but I think it's better to be honest.

Quiter apart from, what on earth do you do if said pupil says "Oh, I'm free every evening" - then you either have to find yet another excuse, or you have to come clean and not only "let them go" but reveal that you were going to be dishonest about it. I'm certain lying is the easiest way, but also think it's the least constructive for all parties concerned...

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 8 2005, 08:57 PM)

Plus, at least if you are honest with your pupils, they are able to take something away from it - maybe try a different instrument, or music is not for them, or not to try until they are willing to commit the necessary time & energy. Whereas "I'm moving, sorry" will probably just send them to another teacher who will then have to break the news to them: it's a case of passing the buck... I have to be honest, I think it's appalling.

OK, so what do you mean by honesty? Try it from a pupils perspective. Imagine you are a pupil being 'sacked' by a teacher:
Try a different instrument Tr: Great. You think I am useless at this one. Thanks.
Music is not for me Tr: Great. Thanks. How do you know?
or at least not until I am ready to commit the necessary time & energy Response: I am doing 10 GCSE's\5 'A' levels. All I want is a bit of sympathy and understanding. Thanks.

Remember, this post was started by someone lacking the wit to do a cull of her students without asking for help with how to do it.

I will tell you what I really think. Teachers get the students they deserve.

My philosophy is: a student is doing the very best s\he can at any given moment. That 'best' may not be much by my standards but that is not relevant. My job is to help that student achieve the best s\he can under the circumstances. The waiting list will have to wait.

As for; "Whereas "I'm moving, sorry" will probably just send them to another teacher who will then have to break the news to them: it's a case of passing the buck... I have to be honest, I think it's appalling." The originator of this topic was describing pupils she is desperate to get rid of. She implies they are both hopeless and unenthusiastic. I doubt these pupils would seek another teacher. Perhaps deception would be the kindest option.

You can lie if you want: I still think it's the most unhelpful and unconstructive way of doing it. Giving pupils the chance to work harder, or to say if they do really want to stop, is still (IMO - and you don't have to agree, and probably won't but hey, so what) better than lying - which is frankly just a lazy way of doing it - it's saying you can't be bothered. Depends on the pupil: maybe there are some for whom the lie would be better... I've yet to meet one. Most pupils either know that things aren't going right - and will therefore either welcome the chance to give up something they don't enjoy any more (or never did) or will need some sort of kick up the backside to actually make them try, if they do want to learn. And those who can't be bothered and think that's fine, well maybe they need also to know that they can't coast along and expect that a teacher will put up with it ad infinitum (friend of mine had a pupil who was doing just that, and when he served notice on them he told them why - believe me, that kid needed to know...) And yes, there are some pupils who would end up being shunted from teacher to teacher - either because their parents desperately want "our kids to have the chances we never had", or because they do genuinely want to learn music. In the first case, the parents need to know their kid loathes it: in the second, helping them find an instrument, or a different teacher, that was going to help them enjoy the experience, or even finding out that this apparently talentless kid still genuinely wants to learn may make a teacher try that bit harder and have a bit more patience. Some children just aren't right for a particular instrument: I had a pupil give up flute lessons a few months ago - she's very musical, and she wants to be able to play the flute, but she doesn't want to have to learn it: she hasn't great lung capacity, she has a brace, and all in all it was one instrument too many. She knew it, I knew it, her mum knew it: her mum was relieved in fact when I said it.

I don't think claiming you're moving away to get rid of the pupils you don't want is a very adult way of dealing with it. As I said before, you don't have to agree with me... but most students, and most parents, in my experience, either know that things aren't going right, or need to be told that things aren't going right. And (IMO again) all students should at least be given a last chance to see if they can or will work harder - and "moving away" isn't going to allow them that chance.

Sometimes the grass on the other side is greener, are your waiting list pupils going to be any better???
How about a serious and concerned chat at the end of the term with the child's development to the fore. Nobody can complain about that. No, it is not easy but guaranteed to gain more respect than moving house!!

Pick your moment carefully, when you are feeling confident and in control, maybe rehearse what you are going to say first.

Good Luck

Katie

Very well said and far more eoloquently than I managed!

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 10:18 PM)

I don't think claiming you're moving away to get rid of the pupils you don't want is a very adult way of dealing with it.

Perhaps you have forgotten. I do not use this method - I do not have to as I have the experience and ability both to hold and enthuse pupils. I was describing the method used by a young colleague of mine when looking for a way of gently 'sacking' the hopeless, useless, helpless and daft.

You may not approve of it, but is is gentle. It is also a great deal more gentle than the method I used at the same age.

Apparently, my 'brown envelopes' were much feared. I am ashamed of the thought.

No, I didn't say - or think! - that you did! Regardless of who used/uses it - I think it's immature - and wouldn't recommend using it to anyone...

Brown envelopes? Sounds scary.

I think gentle needs to be balanced with honest... tis all... and I don't think honest has to mean harsh, rude, mean...

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 8 2005, 03:40 PM)

I know a teacher who tells unwanted pupils that he is moving to London whenever he needs a clear-out of the hopless and useless.

I'm on my third teacher now, the previous two both told me they were moving after about 2 years of lessons.

Hmmmm is there something I ought to deduce from this

Jane

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 9 2005, 10:40 PM)

Brown envelopes? Sounds scary.

They sure were - I sent out my bills in them.

Trouble is, people also thought I sent out sacking letters in them. This was untrue as I always told parents to their face why I was not going to teach their child any more. Somehow the rumour of the brown envelopes just spread.

I could only solve the problem by changing envelopes, which was a pity because the small brown ones were so cheap. Hey-ho.

I understand how you feel Tracey. I had a couple of sisters once who made such SLOW progress I despaired. They were doing quite well on their other instruments and so I made a few hints over a period over a year with their parents that they might prefer to concentrate on their other instrument as they were not really making any progress on the piano. They said they practised but week after week there was no improvement despite trying different methods. Parents are quite reluctant to let their children give up, as there is always the hope that at any point things might 'click' and they will suddenly take off! I still feel a bit guilty when I meet these parents that it didn't work out. Maybe it would have been the same with any teacher but it still doesn't feel right to 'let a pupil go'.

You know from your own experience what are the average rates of progress and that there will be periods of slack when others things are going on in their lives and crowd out practising. You also know when you have a slow learner, but they are enjoying it and working to the best of their ability and each milestone is a great achievement. But you also know when you have someone of reasonable ability but is not really interested, simply passing the time of day and not making any effort to improve. It is those pupils who you would like to 'let go' and take on someone instead who really wants to learn.

Further to the other comments I think you should explain once again to the parents and pupil that 'Fred' is not making good progress, you were concerned that he was not benefitting from his lessons and that you were going to set some targets for him to meet by the end of the year/term and if he had not achieved them you would suggest that he gives up for a period of time (maybe a year) to consider how much he misses his lessons, whether he would prefer to try another instrument etc etc. Meanwhile you can take someone new from the waiting list, and if 'Fred' does want to come back he can go back on your waiting list. I suspect that if he hasn't improved after the targets had been set he would demonstrate that he wasn't really interested anyway.

I am sure you have done all this but quite often an exam or playing in a Festival revives flagging interests. Or a new style of music, some jazz/pop/film music gets them going again.

Just some thoughts.

This is an interesting debate, I agree with sarah -flute really. it`s easy to say something like "I`m moving" but remember, lying, in the end is always more difficult as u have to justify your lies. I would be worried about getting a bad reputation for myself by doing that. I have been tempted to try and ditch 2 or 3 slow students but I feel loathe to do it as they are keen, which is all I really care about. I believe that if a genuinely keen pupil is making no progress then it is the teacher`s fault ultimately, different approaches must be tried. I would like to have more pupils of a higher standard (later grades) however and may end up ditching some of the younger ones gently ,(not by lying) and telling them that i feel I should concentrate on pupils who are taking exams and so on.

It's not easy; I usually (not that I've done it THAT often) end up saying something along the lines of: 'I feel I'm not the right teacher for Sam' and/or that I don't feel I'm able to help him/her any further. In fact, the student may genuinely fare better with a different approach. We can't be all things to all people, and sometimes a parting of the ways is in the best interests of both sides. Best not to agonise too much about it.

QUOTE (enkroachment @ May 10 2005, 11:25 AM)

I would like to have more pupils of a higher standard (later grades) however and may end up ditching some of the younger ones gently ,(not by lying) and telling them that i feel I should concentrate on pupils who are taking exams and so on.

I take it from this that you have not been teaching for long.

I have, and can tell you that time flies.

It will not be long before your young beginners become older and more advanced. That really is a pleasure.

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 10 2005, 11:42 AM)

It will not be long before your young beginners become older and more advanced. That really is a pleasure.

Thats right Steve and I know I'd certainly prefer working with advanced students who had been with me from the beginning than have to correct students with bad habits.

On the few occasions I have had to lose a few students, I have explained to their parents that they aren't making much progress and as I feel they are capable of doing much better, advise a change of teacher - a change of approach sometimes can make a difference.

Thanks for your comments steve and noodle. Yes , I not been teaching as long as you probably, but I have brought one pupil up to grade 2 now, and she started literally with a toy piano, and got grade one 1 with a good merit etc etc so I know it`s satisfying but some pupils I have seem to make no progress, and I worry it`s a waste of money and time for their parents and perhaps some teachers would be better for them as I don`t know much about teaching little ones, my background is that of a professional pianist. However I have some 8 year olds who have made great progress and sound like real pianists already, so it`s satisfying also and i can see them doing grades soon. Also, I don`t mind correcting bad habits, I`ve taken over grade 3,4,5 pupils and really sorted them out, it being obvious that their tuition before was lacking in certain respects. Anyhow, the debate rages on, lol certainly lying in never the way forward as I said, I agree with Sarah-flute and all that.

QUOTE (enkroachment @ May 10 2005, 11:25 AM)

I have been tempted to try and ditch 2 or 3 slow students but I feel loathe to do it as they are keen, which is all I really care about.

Encroachment, the students I'm talking about aren't keen at all. One of them takes great delight in telling me that she hasn't practiced all week and I've been through the talk about trying to do even 5 mins every other day I don't know how many times! I certainly wouldn't want to get rid of students because they were slow, some people are just like that but they still have the hunger to learn. I'm talking about the kids who make no effort from week to week, whose parents say "they didn't have time to practice this week" and think that's alright, and the ones who say "no, I don't want to do that" when you ask them to try something that they haven't seen before.
To be honest I don't think it makes any difference whether I have a waiting list or not, I still need to sort these students out. I have decided to give them till the end of the month to see if there's a change in attitude, after first telling them that I am thinking of stopping their lessons.
I would like to thank all of you for your views and ideas, I seem to have sparked a really interesting discussion!
I still think I need to go on an assertiveness course!!! Nobody tells you about these things when you start out as a teacher!!

yes trbro that`s different, very disheartening, I had pupils like that sometimes when I used to teach at schools in london, I only have private pupils now so at least I can choose, and to be honest, if I were you I`d just say point-blank to the parent, does he / she want to learn or do u just want him to and see what they say. I wouldn`t carry on teaching a pupil who ain`t keen for sure. Good luck.

Sounds like you're going about it in a very sensible way - it's only fair to give them a chance, but also it's only fair that you have the final say when they are getting you down that much. Hope that you manage to get it all sorted to your satisfaction & get some new and keener pupils in to replace those who have to go.

Yes - agreed. You seem to have reached a good decision trbro. I find once you have become convinced in your own mind to "take a stand" with a particular pupil, the rest is not as difficult as you expect it to be.

Good luck - and here's wishing you some keen and conscientious (??sp? I need my coffee!) pupils to take the place of the disinterested ones.

Maggie

I don't know what you should do in these situations. Instinctively I feel you should perservere as long as the child still wants to come - if they're really being dragged totally against their will I think you'd know - there'd be a horrible atmosphere between the kid and the parent when they're dropped off, or the child would be sullen and un-cooperative through the lesson.

I've just lost a pupil today - she's been with me three years and it's been an uphill struggle the whole time. We just spent her final lesson improvising and when the mum came to pick her up she said "well, she did really enjoy the lessons, and she learnt to read music etc etc". I never really got to the bottom of what it was with her - it certainly didn't help that the parents weren't musical and couldn't help her with practice. Also, she was very unco-ordinated - constantly kept dropping things (like her violin), and was left-handed...

I've got half a mind to start my next left-handed pupil the other way round, but apparently you have to move the sound post as well as the strings...

I'm not sad she's given up - I'll miss her funny stories etc, but I won't miss trying to get her to play the violin tunefully - it was a no-win situation from the start.

Should I have dumped her ages ago to make room for somebody else? I don't think so - it would have hurt her terribly and I'm glad in the end that the decision came from her parents in the end. She even said she might come back when she's a bit older (she's 10) and more responsible re practice.

My teacher did a little test in the trial lesson - to see if the pupil was co-ordinated and could sing in tune - she turned pupils down point blank if they had a problem with either. Sounds harsh I know, and she didn't need the money, but I can see her point. All her pupils (she only ever had about half a dozen) are now in their 50's and still playing...

Heigh-ho

Violinia

I think that for me, the most important quality I look for in students is enthusiasm. Obviously each instrument makes different demands on people physically and in terms of coordination. Personally I've never taught anyone who was really keen who was so uncoordinated to the point where they couldn't get something out of learning the piano. People who like the idea of learning but don't want to put the work in is another issue-and if a pupil finds playing doesn't come easily, then they do need more determination-again it comes down to wanting to play enough. I think aiming for each student's personal best for them is the most important thing-and I'd much rather teach someone who really wanted to be there, than perhaps someone who found playing and learning easier, but didn't want to learn for themselves.