I am taking a preparation course for the aural test (Grade 5). The instructor said something i thought it was so weird.

He told us never to use pedal in Baroque (List A) pieces as the polyphony that characterised this era should be expressed in legato form not with the pedal...

I think he's right but not all pieces shouldn't be played with a pedal. For example, the 1st movement of Kulhau's sonatine in F Op.88 (2003-2004 syllabus) would be much better if it was played with pedal.

I played that piece 2 years ago but I think there were only 2 places where my then teacher said it would be acceptable to use the smallest amount of pedalling. The rest of it definitely not. Have you heard it on the ABRSM cd - the speed it's played at you'd blur it horribly if you tried to use pedal throughout. Are you playing it in the right style - it's very neat & clean playing not romanticised at all?

QUOTE (Chopinisque @ May 19 2005, 09:33 PM)

He told us never to use pedal in Baroque (List A) pieces as the polyphony that characterised this era should be expressed in legato form not with the pedal...

Not all the List A pieces are Baroque - though many of them are. Kuhlau is definitely NOT Baroque!

QUOTE

Kuhlau is definitely NOT Baroque!

Thanks Jo ! That was my initial reaction too, and I meant to go and check Kuhlau's dates to see if my memory was faulty - and then I forgot

Maggie

This is a discussion that wil run and run, but......

As this music wasn't written for the modern piano you are, in effect, always playing a transcription, unles you ghave access to a baroque style keybord instrument (or the hapsichord voice on a digital pinao)

Why not use the features of the instrument you're playing on to get the best out of the music?

In a recent concert Daniel Barenboim perfiormed the whole of well tempered claviar Bk 1, and even added extra octaves in the bass so that the pieces sounded more 'piano like'.

I think Scarlatti can often benefit from damper pedal.

Therefore the Thomas Arne in Grade V will benefit similarly.

Pedal is not much use in a fugue generally

QUOTE (StuMac @ May 20 2005, 08:42 AM)

This is a discussion that wil run and run, but...... As this music wasn't written for the modern piano you are, in effect, always playing a transcription, unles you ghave access to a baroque style keybord instrument (or the hapsichord voice on a digital pinao) Why not use the features of the instrument you're playing on to get the best out of the music? In a recent concert Daniel Barenboim perfiormed the whole of well tempered claviar Bk 1, and even added extra octaves in the bass so that the pieces sounded more 'piano like'.

Iagree entirely - but I am not a teacher!

I suppose some of it depends what effect you're trying to get from the pedal. If you want a legato in a place where it's difficult to acheive otherwise (eg moving between chords in a cadence is the place I used pedal in Scarlatti) then you probably can use very sparing pedal. Pianos of the era would not have been as resonant as our steel framed beasties, so those that were fitted with some kind of damper pedal would have helped a player get a legato tone but not have had much effect on the tone colour. Conversely, I don't think you'd be keeping to the spirit of the era to use the pedal to build up a tone colour - their pianos just wouldn't have produced this.

QUOTE (maggiemay @ May 20 2005, 03:30 AM)

QUOTE Kuhlau is definitely NOT Baroque! Thanks Jo ! That was my initial reaction too, and I meant to go and check Kuhlau's dates to see if my memory was faulty - and then I forgot Maggie

Are you saying that Baroque is defined by date? Hindemith's Ludus Tonalis appeared in the G8 piano syllabus 2004/5. The footnotes suggested his music is written in the spirit of Bach.

Your response please?

QUOTE (grand choeur @ May 20 2005, 02:11 PM)

QUOTE (maggiemay @ May 20 2005, 03:30 AM) QUOTE Kuhlau is definitely NOT Baroque! Thanks Jo ! That was my initial reaction too, and I meant to go and check Kuhlau's dates to see if my memory was faulty - and then I forgot Maggie Are you saying that Baroque is defined by date? Hindemith's Ludus Tonalis appeared in the G8 piano syllabus 2004/5. The footnotes suggested his music is written in the spirit of Bach. Your response please?

Of course Baroque is defined by date. If Hindemith wanted his piece in the spirit of Bach, then play it like how you would play Bach, which is commonly played without pedal. If nothing is stated, then play it like how you would play other pieces from the same period.

QUOTE (Fen @ May 20 2005, 01:58 PM)

I suppose some of it depends what effect you're trying to get from the pedal. If you want a legato in a place where it's difficult to acheive otherwise (eg moving between chords in a cadence is the place I used pedal in Scarlatti) then you probably can use very sparing pedal. Conversely, I don't think you'd be keeping to the spirit of the era to use the pedal to build up a tone colour - their pianos just wouldn't have produced this.

Aw Fen - how am I supposed to resist playing chordal and/or arpeggios in pieces of almost any era without use of pedal?

The era or date of a piece is not a reliable guide to use of pedal.

I find it more constructive to always look at the capability of the pedal and what it might add to any piece I look at. A simple formula of Baroque no pedal, classical a bit, and Romantic flat to the boards is never going to convince.

And it can be argued that the rules turn out to be the same for all piano music, so why not think about the actual music in front of you? Abstinence from pedal is needed to prevent blurring in contrapuntal music; it just so happens that much of that music is Baroque.

I think other stylistic devices are far more relevant to reflect style, than use or non-use of pedal. For example, the extent that rubato is employed is something that differentiates far more explicitly. Also the extent to which you might do sudden and dramatic mood changes.

BTW, I consistently notice at junior performances that use of pedal is something that lags behind other aspects of piano technique and knowledge. Does anyone agree? Does anyone know why?

QUOTE

BTW, I consistently notice at junior performances that use of pedal is something that lags behind other aspects of piano technique and knowledge. Does anyone agree? Does anyone know why?

leg length


Wasn't meaning to imply that Baroque none, etc. More a case of thinking what would the instrument of the era be capable of IF you're trying to give what might be termed a historical performance.
Following on from StuMac's post - I read a book which wondered why on earth we even bothered trying for an "historically accurate" performance. Do we believe that someone like Bach or Mozart wouldn't have leapt at the possibilities a concert Steinway might open up?

Surely no-one could suggest that Hindemith is a Baroque composer, even if Ludus Tonalis is to be played in the spirit of Bach. Prokofiev wrote the Classical Symphony, but this hardly qualifies him as a classical composer. He was using a deliberate element of pastiche.

Kuhlau's dates appear to be 1786-1832 which places him firmly outside the Baroque era (which, as we all know, ended on the stroke of midnight, 1750 )

A few months ago, I heard Richard Goode give a wonderful performance of a Bach Partita in the QEH. The clarity and tone quality were amazing - and half way through , it occurred to me to wonder whether he was using the pedal. He was using loads - even in fast contrapuntal passages. But none of the clarity was destroyed.

Baroque by style or by date? Suppose I were to write a piece in the style/spirit of Bach or Buxtehude - what would it be categorised as?

QUOTE (Fen @ May 20 2005, 11:19 AM)

QUOTE BTW, I consistently notice at junior performances that use of pedal is something that lags behind other aspects of piano technique and knowledge. Does anyone agree? Does anyone know why? leg length Wasn't meaning to imply that Baroque none, etc. More a case of thinking what would the instrument of the era be capable of IF you're trying to give what might be termed a historical performance. Following on from StuMac's post - I read a book which wondered why on earth we even bothered trying for an "historically accurate" performance. Do we believe that someone like Bach or Mozart wouldn't have leapt at the possibilities a concert Steinway might open up?

Well said.

Personally I think these historically correct playings are exercises in conjecture at best. If we want to be historically correct should we play Bach on the piano at all?? Much less on a piano with an iron - not wooden - frame?

From all accounts, Bach played his instruments superbly and it is conjecture again and fanciful supposition what he would have thought of playing on today's resonant and sonorous pianos and organs with innumerable stops and electrical contrivances.

I really think that historically correct performances should be left to the conservatories and others who have period instruments. Otherwise we delve into the depths of conjecture and what ifs...

QUOTE (grand choeur @ May 20 2005, 06:05 PM)

Baroque by style or by date? Suppose I were to write a piece in the style/spirit of Bach or Buxtehude - what would it be categorised as?

I'm no expert but... contemporary music in baroque style. It is contemporary - by the very nature that you are writing it today and not 100s of years ago. But that can encompass "in the style of" whatever you like.

The musical periods by necessity refer to time periods (or things could get very confusing!) - even though, as I'm sure you know, even within the Baroque or Classical or Romantic periods, many many different styles went in and out of fashion, different composers wrote in very different ways etc... the terms baroque/contemporary can never tell you ALL that much (some, but not everything) about the style of a piece of music... they just tell you when it was written and what it is likely to be like within very very broad categories. (or what it's NOT likely to be like!) Only gotta compare say Haydn, Beethoven & Mozart, or Shostakovich with Glass, or Wagner with Debussy, (who, unless I'm going potty - which is possible - "share" periods) to see that those broad categories cover "a multitude of sins"!

Present day writers would probably think it bizarre to attempt to write a play in the style of Shakespeare, or a novel in the style of Jane Austen. I'm not sure why grand choeur might contemplate writing in the style of Buxtehude; but I have a fair idea of what I would categorise it as

Surely it's more important to establish one's own personal voice before going too far along the road of writing in the spirit of styles from the past. Although many established composers toyed with this idea ( Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin etc,) there was always far more of their own style than that of past eras.

I agree with George. The purpose of the sustaining pedal is to enhance the sound. The time the piece was composed is a red herring.

QUOTE (Helen VJ @ May 21 2005, 06:58 AM)

Present day writers would probably think it bizarre to attempt to write a ....novel in the style of Jane Austen....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/lis...7104906-1855648

People have, people do...

I guess it's good practice in strict harmonisation, and if it's a style you like, then why not.

QUOTE (Helen VJ @ May 21 2005, 02:58 AM)

I'm not sure why grand choeur might contemplate writing in the style of Buxtehude; but I have a fair idea of what I would categorise it as

Would that be Neo or Post Baroque?

Neither of those, grand choeur,but I didn't want to get moderated off

QUOTE (Helen VJ @ May 21 2005, 03:31 PM)

Neither of those, grand choeur,but I didn't want to get moderated off

Well I wont even be tempting you