Hi. I'm a mum seeking some advice from any teachers,parents, or indeed anyone who may have been in this postion themselves.
I have an almost seven year old daughter. She has been playing the violin for about two years, after watching me playing the viola at home and expressing a serious interest. Everything has been going fine - she seemed to be enjoying it, and joined the local county run Saturday morning music school, where she has been making really good progress.

Until about three months ago. Practice became a BIG issue, and generally made everything very tense in the house. After a chat with her teacher, we decided to have a 'holiday' from lessons, but that she would continue to go to her string group on Saturday mornings. This was her teacher's suggestion, in that it would soon become too difficult, and she would either give up, or come back to lessons.
In the meantime, she has continued with piano lessons, no probs with practice on that front and bags of potential according to her teacher.

Anyway, yesterday, I happened to be chatting to the lady who runs the string group. I mentioned that my daughter has stopped formal lessons, had she noticed a difference in her playing? She couldn't believe it, and said that she was one of the better players, and was starting to show real talent. She urged me to not let her give up her lessons as she could 'go a long way'.

I spoke to my daughter and she has said that she would like to have lessons again, but on another day as her previous ones were on a Friday and she was too tired (fair comment). However, I'm absolutely torn. If she starts lessons again am I forcing her into it? I don't want to force the issue and lead to further unhappiness and tension but don't want her to pass the opportunity by either.

Does anyone have any advice or experience of a similar situation they could offer me?

Thanks in advance.

Dear Janey,
I do not have a similar situation (as my daughter is presently obsessed with her violin and practises twice a day on her own once before school and once after school even though she confesses to a distinct dislike of scales - wonder how long this enthusiasm will last?) BUT just in case her enthusiasm wanes, I have read in advance a book which offers some very practical advice on this particular issue. It's called "Positive, Not Pushy" by Cassandra Jardine. Try it, why not?

All the best!

Tess

Has she been practising while she has had her "lesson" holiday? More or less than before? Was it maybe a personality clash with her teacher or something??

I had lessons on a Friday before, and it really isn't the best day, if she had lessons again could she change the day/time?

She sounds quite talented, and I wish her all the best with her music.

As for being pushy, you don't sound like it, but I imagine it must be hard as you have to be careful not to go too far.

Maybe if she gets some new repetoire, she might be inspired to practice more? Or what about a CD of exciting music?

Good luck.

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ May 22 2005, 03:09 PM)

I had lessons on a Friday before, and it really isn't the best day, if she had lessons again could she change the day/time?

Yeah same. I'd get home from school, sit around then have to do more lessons! I didn't get anything from my lessons, so didn't get anything from my practice!

I changed days and it worked out better.

Thankyou for your suggestions.

Just after I added this post, I decided to give her reactions a little 'test'. I suggested to her in ever such a gentle way 'Why not get your violin out and have a look at some of your music?'
Her reaction spoke volumes - 'No'.
To which I replied, 'Why not?'
She said, 'Because I don't want to, I don't like practising it'.

A few minutes later I reminded her that she hadn't done her ten minutes piano today. She went straight to it, rattled off her scales, and tried really hard with one of the pieces she has been struggling with. Not one complaint.

So, I'm thinking that maybe the violin just isn't for her, and that however hard it will be, (I was looking forward to duets!!) it will just have to be quietly put into retirement.

Do you think it might be worth trying something else, as I am keen for her to play an ensemble instrument too. She has expressed a big interest in the clarinet, or do you think it would just be jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

If she still enjoys the string group (and it sounds as though she is getting something from that) I would just leave it at that for now.
Maybe she just enjoys violin to 'play' with and it seems as though she is holding her own quite easily in the group so doesn't really need to put anything else into it at the moment. There may come a time when she want to learn more formally or to try another instrument. At almost 7 she sounds, from your posts, to be quite forward in her music and Pushing the practice angle may not be a good way to go if she is having fun (which is what it sholud be about to a great extent anyway).

Maybe you could ask her why she doesn't like practicing? Maybe get her some new pieces, just to play for fun.

QUOTE (sbhoa @ May 22 2005, 04:08 PM)

If she still enjoys the string group (and it sounds as though she is getting something from that) I would just leave it at that for now.).

I second that: she's doing OK without lessons and with seemingly no practice at all, and enjoying the group - let her enjoy it. She may well get to the stage where she wants to have lessons again: 7 is a good early start, and as the string group leader feels she's doing well, she can't be doing too badly with technique etc. Don't give up on it yet - just don't worry about lessons for a while. She's obviously thriving without!

QUOTE (janeyk @ May 22 2005, 03:35 PM)

Just after I added this post, I decided to give her reactions a little 'test'. I suggested to her in ever such a gentle way 'Why not get your violin out and have a look at some of your music?' Her reaction spoke volumes - 'No'. To which I replied, 'Why not?' She said, 'Because I don't want to, I don't like practising it'. A few minutes later I reminded her that she hadn't done her ten minutes piano today. She went straight to it, rattled off her scales, and tried really hard with one of the pieces she has been struggling with. Not one complaint.

I have known loads of kids who made progress on orchestral instruments merely by playing with ensembles. They do little or no formal practise.

They do still have lessons, though. How about trying to persuade her to take the lessons but not be too worried about practise. Goes against the grain, I know, but my mum did that for me for 8 years before the music bug bit.

I teach pianists who also play the violin. All say the same thing; practising the piano is easier to do because there is not the faff involved getting it out that there is with the violin. It might be worth trying setting the violin up for your daughter before suggesting some practise. You never know.

Good luck

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 22 2005, 06:12 PM)

I teach pianists who also play the violin. All say the same thing; practising the piano is easier to do because there is not the faff involved getting it out that there is with the violin. It might be worth trying setting the violin up for your daughter before suggesting some practise. You never know.

Oh yes! Absolutely! Same with the flute. You also get to sit down, and while having a real good play on the piano is quite physical, at the early stages violin practice I'd say is a lot more requiring of energy than piano.

As your daughter is so young I would be inclined to let her continue with the string group and forget about lessons for now. She still has some interest in the violin or she wouldn't want to go every Saturday. I would be content with that and I am almost certain that she will take lessons again in the future when she is ready. By forcing her to have lessons she may give it up altogether and I'm sure you would rather she played the violin once a week than not at all.

Do you practice with her at all? When I was 7, my mum used to practice with me and I hated it! Is there a chance that she practices the piano alone? If so this may be the problem. Just a thought!

Yes, although my parents were never with me when I practiced, I feel uneasy when someone is nearby when I play the flute.

Dear Janey,
I've just realised that the title of the book I suggested might give you the WRONG impression! Actually, I started reading it AFTER my daughter told me (and her dad) that I'm a "softie" (QUOTE) and that I need some toughening up! Her comments ironically, came after I simply let her give up piano lessons - just like that when she started complaining of boredom in piano practice - after only 2 terms. On the violin however, she practises twice a day and happily for about 1.5hrs but nil time on the piano! Yes, NIL!

It was long after she gave up piano that she realises that it's the teacher she didn't like. She now says she quite like the piano but then she wants to resume piano lessons only after a break of maybe, 2 years. I said OK, no problem. So, MAYBE it's a case of having the wrong teacher plus IT being at the wrong time???

So, please don't let the title mislead you - it is a very practical book for so-called non-pushy but positive parents, too. I don't want to be a non-pushy but guilt-laden "softie" who will some day regret lost opportunities.

Hope this helps!

Tess

QUOTE (Tess @ May 22 2005, 09:08 PM)

It was long after she gave up piano that she realises that it's the teacher she didn't like.

I had the same problem: I hated piano because I really did not like my teacher - one of those who pushes through exams, and entered you for exams when you weren't ready and then pushed you to catch up. She was hard on me because she felt I was musical but played too many instruments, and kept trying to convince me to give them up in favour of the piano. She informed my mum that if I was to continue lessons I'd basically have to pull my socks up (ignoring the fact that I was practising every day and progressing well, just not as fast as she wanted!) and was surprised when my mum said "Well, she'll stop then." lol

13 years later I started again, I'm about back up to the standard of the last exam I passed but with vastly improved confidence and a far more encouraging teacher, now able to play the exam level pieces after a couple of weeks rather than slogging at them for months, and enjoying the piano like I did when I started my lessons for the very first time!

Teachers have so much responsibility in their ability to put a child off or really get them going... personality and finding a teacher who suits your child is definitely a worthwhile pursuit.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 23 2005, 10:09 AM)

Teachers have so much responsibility in their ability to put a child off or really get them going... personality and finding a teacher who suits your child is definitely a worthwhile pursuit.

Oh wow, and how?

I bet we could sll spend all day swapping horror stories.

Great to hear your piano playing is going so well, Sarah. That's brilliant.

QUOTE (janeyk @ May 22 2005, 03:35 PM)

A few minutes later I reminded her that she hadn't done her ten minutes piano today. She went straight to it, rattled off her scales, and tried really hard with one of the pieces she has been struggling with. Not one complaint. So, I'm thinking that maybe the violin just isn't for her, and that however hard it will be, (I was looking forward to duets!!) it will just have to be quietly put into retirement. Do you think it might be worth trying something else, as I am keen for her to play an ensemble instrument too. She has expressed a big interest in the clarinet, or do you think it would just be jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

There are signs that the piano will become her first (if not her only) instrument. The string group would be meeting a social need perhaps. I don't see a need to radically change anything that is happening now.

I don't understand why you think that the piano needs to be less of an ensemble instrument than the violin. There is a repertoire out there for viola and piano that you would be able to play with her. Then of course the piano's role in sonatas with all the other orchestra instruments, piano quartets, as well as in songs. The piano's special advantage is that it can also stand alone as a solo instrument with the biggest repertoire of any instrument to choose from!

I don't know the position where you live, but in New Zealand I believe there is a dearth of quality pianists, especially in the schools. I am tempted to say to anyone with aptitude and enthusiasm for the piano - make it your only instrument, unless you fall into the gifted category.

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 23 2005, 10:35 AM)

Great to hear your piano playing is going so well, Sarah. That's brilliant.

I'm enjoying it more this time round, especially once I got over cringing at the end of every piece expecting to have it ripped apart - a habit which was actually very hard to break!

Hi Janeyk!

A funny coincidence that you should post this yesterday, the very day I was having similar thoughts myself. My daughter (now 6) started Cello and son (now 5) started violin at about the same time a year or so ago. My daughter has on the whole enjoyed it very much, but we decided to stop my son's lessons a couple of months ago because I didn't feel able to encourage and organise practice sufficiently. I did a post on this in the "suzuki violin lessons" thread in parents' forum.

After my son stopped lessons we got into a more manageable routine of being able to "box him off" at bedtime, and do a short practise with his sister before she went to bed. Last night after being put to bed (unusually for him) he got up again saying he was still hungry. When he saw his sister doing a little "concert" for mummy he decided he wanted to play something on his "teensy" violin which hadn't been out for so long we couldn't immediately remember where it was. When we suggested it was past his bedtime and perhaps he could do something tomorrow, he really got quite tearful, so we found his violin and let him do just one "piece" (I use the term loosely!) and go back to bed. This morning on the way to school he started saying "do you remember when we used to do this" about various things - like that we used to lift him up to the roof and say "hip hip hooray!" when he did something well.

I remember being very worried at the time we stopped that by insisting on practise that he didn't want to do I may push further and further and encounter more and more resistance to the point that I was engendering a hatred of music rather than a love of it. I hoped when he stopped that in his own good time he may again come round to taking an interest in his violin playing, but I thought it also very possible that he might just drift onto other things and lose interest altogether. Yesterday has given me renewed hope that we have not "cut the line" by taking a break.

What to do next is uncertain. We don't want to just go back to lessons and practise in a way which will destroy the nostalgia and throw up all the same problems again. His teacher was really lovely when we stopped and said we could always come back for the odd "one off" lesson, which is a definite option.

I do feel from my own past experience that a violin lesson for which you have done no practise is an almost total waste of time. You only really get to improve on things once the basic ability to do at least something is already there. Certainly by grade IV standard if you don't practise at all your lessons might as well be a 30 minute session familiarising yourself with some notes in the absence of the teacher.

I don't think we will restart lessons until with the knowledge I now have, I have some sort of revised "gameplan" as to how things, including practise, would work out alright.

In your daughter's case a change of lesson day may make the lesson itself more enjoyable, but she still has to be motivated to practise. I really don't know how that might be achieved. Maybe she just needs a break. As an alternative, is there a good amateur orchestra she could join or you could both join together, perhaps with rather more challenging music, so that she could rise to the challenge presented by that? Or do you think she might be tempted to borrow your viola and have a go on that, which opens up a different perspective on orchestral music? I have mentioned before how Roger Coull went from a languishing grade IV to an inspired grade VIII within a year as a result of joining (and being asked to lead) a newly formed large orchestra.

I suspect your daughter did the right thing to take a break. Whatever you decide to do next I do sympathise with the uncertainty of it all, and I do wish you and your daughter well.

Hi Janeyk-

It's always very interesting reading the different points of view about practise - whether it comes from teachers or parents. In the case of my eldest daughter - we left practise up to her, not wanting to be too pushy and risk putting her off - although she has a lovely voice and has passed Grade 8 singing with distinction, her piano stopped at grade 5 - much to her regret and ours!

In the case of my youngest daughter who started lessons with a well known pianist and teacher, practise immediately became part of her routine which meant she progressed very quickly - which in turn meant that she wanted to play! Practise is now so much part of her day that I can't imagine a day passing without her practising- this is not to say that she doesn't moan about scales and difficult pieces but she knows that she WILL be able to play them - if she practises!!

I think it is very difficult as a parent to know what is the best direction to take regarding practise but in our experience - leaving practise decisions up to the child resulted in that child regretting that she wasn't pushed more - she felt that she had not been old enough to make those decisions and not experienced enough to understand what she was giving up.

One of the problems with youngsters and practice is that too many teachers don't teach HOW to practice... and so kids rattle through each piece badly, do their scales badly, and wonder why they don't make any progress. Learning to practice effectively is a sure way to kick start your music, because then you see progress, and that is a huge incentive to keep practising!

You're right Frances, my kids practise the same time every day and it is part of their routine... it would be strange not hear them play something each day.

As for Zoda...... glad to hear your son has picked up the violin again however briefly. My youngest showed off his new shoulder rest to his grandparents yesterday and somehow they managed to get him to recite a little bit on the violin. He was so excited by his reaction he decided to dig out the piano books that he had started the year before and hadnt touch in months and started to play the piano. He even managed C major scale 2 octaves with the correct fingering I was shocked as he had not shown any interest in playing the piano since we stopped before christmas. Then he turned round and asked why I hadnt practise piano with him recently. Arent kids funny? Suddenly he is really eager to play and join in with the music fun.

Give it another year and your son will probably start the violin again and catch up with your daughter.

Back to the original post my eldest started in a string group much like the one you describe and it encouraged him to play more...... however he still hates to be asked to practise his violin. He is fine when I ask him to practise the trumpet but the violin he likes me to sit and be there which is fine as long as you dont have 2 other children wanting your attention with their practises. There is always an argument before he starts and then he will happily play for 30 minutes or more. Sometimes I wonder if can break the arguement habit before we practise as it takes the best part of 10 minutes every day. It usually ends with me saying well I will practise with another one of your brothers..... Has anyone tips for this problem?

I am wondering does your daughter like getting her violin ready to play... is it all tuned up, shoulder rest and bow done up ready to go. Maybe the piano is more accessible. Just wondering.... my son is lazy that is why he likes the trumpet ( I think !!) cos he can just get it out and stick the mouthpiece and play. The violin you have to unzip the case, get a shoulder rest on, do up a bow plus roisin and then get the instrument tuned. Alot before you can even start..... do you think that puts her off.....
My other son, the beginner violinist.... gets put off by the squeaky sound his violin makes and I have now taught him that the cause is his posture. If he corrects himself it can stop the bow wandering off. Hearing a perfect sound is very off putting for a beginner. I try not play with him as he gets very frustrated if he cant produce the same sound. He likes his string group as it sounds good and he thinks he is playing that sound.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 23 2005, 12:48 PM)

I'm enjoying it more this time round, especially once I got over cringing at the end of every piece expecting to have it ripped apart - a habit which was actually very hard to break!

On behalf of every half-way decent piano teacher who ever lived:

Sorry Sarah. No-one should be treated like that.

No, I agree, when I had piano lessons, I had them with a man I had known for 4 years previously, he had taught me theory and keyboard, but he never really used to dish out praise. It wasn't as much "That was rubbish", but more like "You could have done this better", even when I had really improved from the week before.

[QUOTE]he likes me to sit and be there which is fine as long as you dont have 2 other children wanting your attention with their practises. There is always an argument before he starts and then he will happily play for 30 minutes or more.
My problem exactly - I have tried explaining how much time is wasted by arguing & when he's practised he says how much he has enjoyed it but every day it's the same struggle to get him in the room to start playing. Glad I'm not the only one with awkward kids

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 23 2005, 11:01 PM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 23 2005, 12:48 PM) I'm enjoying it more this time round, especially once I got over cringing at the end of every piece expecting to have it ripped apart - a habit which was actually very hard to break! On behalf of every half-way decent piano teacher who ever lived: Sorry Sarah. No-one should be treated like that.

Awww thanks Steve. Well, I survived, and enjoying the piano again now. Has made me determined to always find praiseworthy things to say when I teach! I didn't realise how much the way she taught had affected me until I realised how much I was cringing with expectation of being rubbished in my piano lessons - 13 years later! *shakes head* No one expects unmitigated praise, but how a teacher can constantly put such negativity out there and not be surprised when kids give up... d'oh! to quote wise ole Homer!

Does anybody else have the opposite problem?
I find it very difficult to accept the praise when I am aware of all the bits that didn't work as well as I think they should....

Sometimes yes, like the other day I was playing this piece for the first time with the piano, and it was terrible, my timing was dreadful, had to keep stopping. Anyway, the week after that lesson, she'd said she'd written down it was beautiful, and excellent for a first attempt, and I still don't know how she came to that conclusion!!!

I am just wondering.. if my Bach was 'great' last week... what is left for when I get it really good?

Though I that maybe sometimes I can be too critical of my playing and I sholud learn to accept compliments (that's what I was told last time I challenged a teahers verdict...... not going to do that again in a hurry!!).

I think there needs to be a middle ground... we need to accept encouragement without thinking it means we're perfect, and accept constructive criticism without thinking it means we're failures! I think that's a skilled teacher's job - to make sure that they do pick out the main things that need working on (but one at a time!) whilst also praising what was good so we don't get despondent... that piano teacher was one who literally told you every single thing that was wrong and never gave a word of encouragement. However, it would be equally unhelpful to have a teacher who always threw compliments about and never told you what to work on or what needed to be better.

With a good teacher you learn to trust that they mean it when they say something good, and that when they say something bad they are saying it so you can fix it/they can help you rather than because they think you should give up...

All a matter of balance! And if you have been with the same teacher for some time, and you trust then judgement, then trust that if they said something was good, they must've been able to hear something about it they thought was worth encouraging and complimenting.

QUOTE (nicki_flute @ May 24 2005, 02:57 PM)

and excellent for a first attempt, and I still don't know how she came to that conclusion!!!

she probably meant exactly that - excellent for a first attempt - she obviously felt that you played well besides the timing issues, and that even with those problems, you did well when you hadn't played with the piano part before - which can be a tricky thing to do, especially if the interrelation of the two is in any way complex.