Hi,
I am a grade 6 ABRSM piano learner (classical), just wondering if i can learn Jazz piano as well? What is the difference?

Tks!

Well, Classical Piano is Classical music in the broad sense (baroque-modern classical)

Jazz Piano involves playing play.

Hi DavidMusic,

Is it difficult for a classical to learn Jazz? I would also like to learn jazz piano, which grade should i start from if i already have a grade 6 classical piano? Tks!

This question has been brought up before, the problem lies not in your ability to read music but as David says, its that ability to play around with sound and to make it personal, can you improvise? Do you understand the theory involved, the language so to speak in order to make a solo good from mediocre? Improvisation has to be apporached with the same discipline as learning classical music, its a skill best learned from scratch. Don't make things to difficult for your self, pick up some of the early piano jazz grades (1-3) and Jamey Aebersolds 'How to play Jazz and Improvise' Volume 1. Get a good understanding of the pentatonic scales, then Blues, then Dorian, build it progressively. You know the word scale comes from the Italian word Scala literally meaning 'staircase', forget about playing scales that way, up and down. You need to know them inside and out, play them in as many inventive ways you can. Start to hear melodies in your head based on a chosen scale, internalise the sound. Improvisation when played at its best has very little to do with the cognitive part of the brain it taps into the part of the brain that deals with imagination, most music in a classical sense tends to be cognitive skills(no offense intended to classicist) so you will have to spend time developing these jazz skills. Really recommend Aebersold vol 1. Comes with a CD, you can play with a DB and drummer and work at getting the whole feel thing working. Good luck.

Yes, Scales are the most important thing. Unfortunately.

I can improvise very well, but I have an excellent ear. I despise learning scales (never have been able to do it, and i feel guilty when i ask my pupils to practice on them harder) so my improvisation has never crossed the line onto amazing.

Hi, Thanks for the advice.

What is the process to take ABRSM Jazz exams? Is it similar to Classical?

Could you guys advise what books to learn for Jazz Theory?

Thanks

you MUST have a teacher if you're going to learn jazz, either that or you need to find a book with all the scales in (and I mean all of them, every scale under the sun is used in jazz)

QUOTE

Could you guys advise what books to learn for Jazz Theory?

One of the books i found very very helpful and not strictly jazz was 'Popular Music Theory' Grades 6-8 London College of Music by Camilla Sheldon and Tony Skinner. Its a good straight forward starting point.

I may have a spare copy if your interested. Send me a private e-mail.

"Yes, Scales are the most important thing. Unfortunately" (David)

Wrong. Rhythm's the most important thing, David. The teacher's always right, huh?

Hi,
Thanks alot.
Since scales are important, any scales books to recommend?

I was thinking of learning Jazz piano on my own first while finishing the classical with my teacher.

Hi TenorClef

Is the book "Popular Music Theory" a Theory book or a practical book? I am actually looking for a practical book to start off first.

Thanks.

QUOTE (Adult pianist @ Mar 20 2004, 03:17 AM)

Hi, Thanks alot. Since scales are important, any scales books to recommend? I was thinking of learning Jazz piano on my own first while finishing the classical with my teacher.

QUOTE

"Yes, Scales are the most important thing. Unfortunately"  (David)Wrong.  Rhythm's the most important thing, David.  The teacher's always right, huh?  ;)

Actually its a combination of the two......still thens theirs that special 3rd ingredient.

I have to disagree again. Scales are important, yes, but there are fantastic jazz musicians out there in the history of jazz who had no idea about scales and couldn't have named a Bb half diminished if their life depended on it.

Another thing you said I disagree with:

"you MUST have a teacher if you're going to learn jazz" - not necessarily true!

Some of the greatest jazz musicians ever learnt to play jazz by listening, listening, listening and playing along with records. That's not to say scales aren't important, they are, and they are a fantastic tool, but equal to rhythm or feel? Never. One of the huge drawbacks to approaching jazz scalistically (?) is that you can end up sounding academic and mechanical. A case in point is a jazz musician I know who has studied jazz at college. He keeps coming out with mechanical sounding passages and you can hear exactly what's going on in his head "here comes a 2-5-1, now I do this.." It's boring, boring, boring to listen to. He's quite rated around where I live too, which makes you somewhat despair.

In the end the ability to play jazz comes from having an acutely good ear, and the ability to go into "the zone" from where fantastic solos emanate. Studying scales and learning jazz rythms can all help, but in the end it's about musicality and FEEL and a true love for the idiom.

Hi Violina, interesting comment. Where you aware that many of the jazz greats such as Miles Davis,John Coltrane and Dizzy Gillespie actually recieved music training either from colleges or military school? (Davis-Juliard, Gillepie-Laurinburg Institute, Coltrane-Naval Academy) However i do basically agree with you, the syntax of jazz is developed by listening but also by immersing one self into that art form and through experimentation.

Yes I do know that the people you mention studied music, but many of the earlier greats didn't have an academic education but learnt their instrument as a child or a teenager, often from a close relative. Louis Armstrong had no musical education and learned trumpet in a waifs' home! Django Reinhardt learned from family members and from listening to Armstrong records. Dizzy Gillespie leaned music from his father Duke Ellington studied piano as a child but then quickly went on to dep for other pianists. And then there's Charlie Parker.... All these guys learned from records and from each other, and basically just played and played and played.

The Golden Age!!!


The reason I say one must have a teacher now, is that Jazz isn't as amazing as it once was (I like modern jazz, but not as much as original jazz) and any good Jazz Musicians learns from hearing live music from someone else - and a teacher can play live whatever asked.

Why should the fact that jazz isn't as amazing as it once was mean that it's more necessary to have a teacher now than back then?

Thinking about it, I suppose if you want to play in today's jazz styles, and today's jazz musicians have mostly studied jazz...

But if you wanted to play New Orleans, swing or be-bop, perhaps you could just listen, listen and play like the old guys!

Two books I'd reccomend

For scales - AB's Jazz scales Grade 1-3 - Not comprehensive but if you're going to learn Jazz through AB syllabus it's a sensible place to start. I've got a bumper book of scales which is also very good - but comprehensively daunting.

For theory - AB's Jazz Piano from Scratch.

Hope this helps

my jazz piano teacher ask me practise all 2 and 3 part invertion from bach.

she said... all improvisation you can learn from back compositon.
and then change them all in triple/ or swing feel rhythm...

all 2-5-1 chord in all keys..

songs transpostirion ....

and...listen to what others people play...and play it out...

its help me a lot...but i dun have a good ear ....

Violinia is correct...Rhythm is the most important; any experienced jazz teacher or developed jazz text will say the same thing. A thorough understanding of scales and as David said "all scales," is essential to jazz playing, but to qoute Charles Beale from the ABRSM you still have to "prove you groove."

Jazz today is in fact, simply reading music and improvising music. I don`t bother with any jazz exams when my pupils express an interest in learning jazz. The two forms of learning - reading/building technique and improvising - go side by side in my lessons. I believe the academic 'classical' side is the first and foremost direction for a pupil to go in, and then after a basic technique becomes prevalent, the improvisatory ear training may start to be introduced.
I don`t use jazz scales. They don`t help at all in helping the ear to learn the different relationships between one note and another where a harmonic improvisatory sequence is required. And after all, in most forms of jazz, the 'chord sequence' is all important - not the scale. (Note that I`m not going to explain 'free improvisation').
So, without scales, I introduce the simple triad - C E G. I ask the pupil to 'make up' a simple tune using these three notes. This reduces the number of notes, (and hence the complication) from 8 as in the scale, to 3. The stress is to discover aurally the relationship and the difference in these 3 notes. How the C sounds 'final'. How the E sounds 'confident and happy'. And how the G sounds 'declamatory and fanfare like'. It is essential for the ear to learn how these 3 notes fit together in any kind of order.
I then introduce the 6th degree of the scale A. So the pupil will then have 4 notes to play around with. Then the flattened 7th - Bb. Then the 2nd degree D. Then Eb to E natural. I avoid the 4th degree in basic ear training. This will come later. As will all the 'black' notes.
I repeat all of this with the chords of F and G major, then all of this is then inserted into a simple 'Blues' sequence of chords. With this method, the pupil learns how to move from one note to another using their ears, (not their fingers), to decide what note will follow. It is foolproof. BECAUSE - after all notes have been covered, the learning of the scale first of all, becomes redundant, as the ear will have already covered the scale *one note at a time*, and in addition and more importantly, the knowledge of how all these individual notes sound in relation to each other will have been mastered.
For any 'classically' trained musician, this method is basic, yes, but it is also a secure way to learn.
There will be players (mainly adults?) who will find that ear training is difficult, because it never used to be taught in an instrumental lesson. But there`s no reason why today`s younger people cannot utilise ear training to maximise their abilities. It may indeed become 'the norm' when even in serious music, improvisatory skills will become an essential part of being a complete musician. There are indeed already many works outside of jazz which require improvisation skills.

I'd like to coment on this "jazz-difficult?" debate. Firstly, I don't know why you all hide behind user-names--- neither teachers nor students should be scared of asking questions about music education! I'm a teacher (and, of course, student). Of course its difficult to play jazz well --- its difficult to play any music well. Artistry is a life-long devotion. Artists learn to make it look simple, but the desire to succeed is paramount. Now let's consider jazz music study. It differs from 'classical' in a number of ways. But, in so far as music education is concerned, the prime difference is in the performance criterium; classical music is taught through reading (the original creators now being dead), and jazz music is essentially taught through aural transmission. These parameters have become blurred through issues such as the Associated Board's writting down of arrangements of jazz music (other publishers, mostly in the States, have been 'grappling' with the notation of jazz for years!) and the fact that classical music notation is only appropriate provided the interpreter understands the conventions of notation at the time the music was written. So... I'm not going to extend further comment upon this subject (unless provoked). Teachers and students may learn of my views through some internet articles on jazz piano (try a search of "Robert Webb" "England" "jazz" "piano" on Google or alike) or through private lessons in jazz piano (my contact details are on the Jazz Piano Teachers' Association site at jazzpianoteachersassociation.org.uk). Anyone can learn to play jazz: but classical music pedagogy is a source of conflict for the student of aurally-based music . I would recommend students of music (and teachers for that matter) to stick to one or the other.

QUOTE

Anyone can learn to play jazz: but classical music pedagogy is a source of conflict for the student of aurally-based music.  I would recommend students of music (and teachers for that matter) to stick to one or the other.

Sorry but I think that's a bit harsh. There are exellent teachers out there who can teach both although I agree that the idioms are very different.

However, I think classical teachers are being a bit arrogant if they think they can just go out and buy the books and then start teaching jazz to their pupils just like that. I really do believe that you need to have a genuine love and understanding of jazz before you can really teach it at all.

To any teacher here thinking of teaching the jazz syllabus but with no previous experience of jazz, I'd say: buy a load of jazz CD's and listen, listen, listen. Go and have some jazz lessons yourself from a reputable teacher, preferably a professional jazz musician who teaches on the side.

Go to jazz workshops, do some gigs. Don't even think of teaching jazz till you're thoroughly versed in it, otherwise you'll only pass your own limitations on. I think there's a tendency at times for classical musicians to look a little askance at jazz, and see it is something "fun" but essentially inferior to classical music, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Jazz is a whole world - get to know it first. But if you then fall in love with jazz, then I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to teach both.

Applause, Applause, Violinia! Well said and instructive because many people believe proficiency in reading notes and reciting theoretical terms are sufficient to play or teach jazz. Like you said its a whole different world; I like RobertWebb's approach though, very scholastic yet objective and practical. I am going to check the web site he mentioned.

QUOTE (RobertWebb @ Jun 15 2004, 03:33 PM)

Firstly, I don't know why you all hide behind user-names--- neither teachers nor students should be scared of asking questions about music education!

Robert, you must realise yourself how dangerous the internet can be. "Hiding" behind a username is a harmless way of keeping your identity to yourself - and for underage teenagers that use forums a lot, I for one would not be encouraging kids to post their real names. Besides, it's fun for a lot of people to be called nicknames, and when in Rome ....
My username is the name of my studio.

And your statement about sticking to either jazz or classical is ridiculous - that's like saying, well you can have either jam or peanut butter - when everyone knows how great they are together!

QUOTE (minsmusic @ Jun 19 2004, 11:53 AM)

that's like saying, well you can have either jam or peanut butter - when everyone knows how great they are together!

Believe it or not, I never tried it until I went to the states, and when I mention to my friends that it's delicious, they look at me as if I'm mad

lol!!!

Cheese and jam? Is that more English....

Of course if I said cheese and vegemite here in Australia, everyone would know what I'm talking about! Add lettuce to the mix and you have a party!!

Anyway... I love classical music, I love jazz music, I love soul, pop, rocknroll and even some country. Variety is , as they say, the spice of life!! (Please tell me you know about that saying in England....)

I love Vegemite.

Anyway, Cheese, Ham and Tomato Ketchup is the ultimate English sandwich

Rite on! U gotta hv rhythm and be very comfortable with swing beats in order to improvise well.... If you can improvise well rhythmically... you can even juz improvise with a SINGLE note for 32 bars and it'll sound impressive!

And one shouldn't teach jazz unless one can, at the very least, improvise impromptu @ gigs and jam sessions. Anything less than that, teaching jazz would be a con job!

QUOTE (Violinia @ Mar 20 2004, 02:39 AM)

"Yes, Scales are the most important thing. Unfortunately"  (David) Wrong.  Rhythm's the most important thing, David.  The teacher's always right, huh? Â

I agree with duvall. You can play stride and blues all you want, but unless you swing it when it needs swinging, you're not feeling the music. Must have the rhythm... but improvising with a single note for 32 bars sounds boring. Trust me; I've tried- my teacher wants me to do it. Then again, I'm terrible at improvising so yea.