Hi guys,what do you notice about the differences between the playing of European and Asian pianists?

Chinese seem to be very good at playing the piano! Its so unfair!

QUOTE (stacetheace8 @ May 24 2005, 07:33 PM)

Chinese seem to be very good at playing the piano! Its so unfair!

In our country, Asians now dominate all the competitive festivals and they get high marks in exams. They are also more likely to be learning than other groups in the community. We have a Chinese pianist John Chen who at 18 won an international contest in a festival in Sydney - he would also be eligible to compete in 10 years time! He topped Grade 8 in NZ while only about 13!

Strangely enough .. for some reason, I don't see so many adult pianists from this background performing around the town. I think that many of these intellectuals have some attractive options. For example John Chen was top NZ student in his final year at school in a science subject. At the time of his festival performance, he had 40 hours of repertoire he could draw upon.

We have some brilliant pianists of Asian background in NZ achieving amazing things - I heard an 11 year old perform the Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu for example.

At that festival though, the adjudicator told the child prodigies that if they were playing material at that level, he expected them to take responsibility for being in the right style, for pedalling appropriately and accurately, for intrepretation. I could see his point clearly in some cases, where I felt that the degree of difficulty was running ahead of the musicianship.

There are a lot of excellent Asian pianists around - and here inthe U.K as well. I think that one of the reasons why they are so successful is that they seem to have a different attitude to practise (back to practise again!)

I was reading about how pianists succeed -- more successful than other students who are just as musically gifted and it was suggested that it is the amount of hours of practise that determines success.(maybeI read it on this forum?)

In our local area there are many very talented child pianists both European and Asian who are playing at very high standards- ( Chopin Fantasie- Impromptu and Chopin etudes at 11 years)

These children are also bright academically and generally have very good teachers and are prepared to put in the hours of practise. I don't think it is necessarily a difference in musical ability.

QUOTE (frances @ May 25 2005, 08:12 AM)

There are a lot of excellent Asian pianists around - and here inthe U.K as well. I think that one of the reasons why they are so successful is that they seem to have a different attitude to practise (back to practise again!) I was reading about how pianists succeed -- more successful than other students who are just as musically gifted and it was suggested that it is the amount of hours of practise that determines success.(maybeI read it on this forum?) In our local area there are many very talented child pianists both European and Asian who are playing at very high standards- ( Chopin Fantasie- Impromptu and Chopin etudes at 11 years) These children are also bright academically and generally have very good teachers and are prepared to put in the hours of practise. I don't think it is necessarily a difference in musical ability.

Number of hours of practice is a very crude predictor of student progress.

There is an old saying - think 10 times and play once!

It is the number of PRODUCTIVE hours of work that should be added up. Within that productive time, different pianists have widely different productivities. Fast learners will make at least 5 times the progress of slow learners in a given time.

The look at motivation and culture. As we all know, self motivation is the optimal. Carrot and stick is believed to be another common approach.

Obviously when you get academically gifted children also working long hours at the keyboard, you are going to see progress!

Music used to be a means of escaping from China after the Cultural Revolution happened. They didn't have much choice. Chinese music students were told and forced to practice long hours (I mean really long, say 10 hours a day or so). It could be there own motivation too, to practise that much, maybe because their parents had spent a lot of money for lessons. The bad side was, there wasn't a really good teacher there, and the students were forced to play in a certain way without allowing them to invent something new. Most of the students were bored, but they felt that it was better bored than wrong. When the communist influenced got down a bit, some world famous musicians started visiting China, such as violinist Issac Stern. When the students there heard and saw him play, they were amazed, because all they had learnt were technical work and they had never really saw how to play with feeling, and stuff like that. Then those students, who had became great technique masters were brought to the U.S or Europe to study further, especially on interpretation. They became great pianists, such as Lang Lang, Yundi-Li (first Asian winner of the 2000 International Chopin Competition, Poland), and so on. This also happened in many other countries with strong restrictions like China.

Now take a look at European and American teenagers, are they practising that much? Few are. They have many choices, they have many distractions and temptations (computers, TV, video games, the Internet-I'm regretting that I'm doing it now!). So we have great teachers, but many of the best students come from Asia!

Is it partly a cultural thing too?
It seems that Asian youngsters are more likely to put in the (quality) time because they are told to even where there is little interest (some past posts on here have suggested that).
Don't know about USA but you don't generally get british children carrying on learning an instrument (and progressing) if they are more or less forced to. Most in that situation would put in so little effort that they would just drive their teachers to distraction.
I have read in the past on these forums about youngsters from the east passing grade 8 when they really had no interset in their instrument... can't see that happening here (UK).

it seems that a lot of developing pianists from asia are more likely to be oriental, i havent heard of more than 1 or 2 concert pianists who come from somewhere like india or pakistan or bangladesh

the majority of professional pianists do seem to come from britain, russia, oriental countries, and maybe france and germany.

i find that often chinese and japanese piano music is of a different style that european music cant really capture. being chinese myself, i think that asian music has a more magical oriental feel to it if you get what i mean...think joe hisaishi...i love his music!

One reason there might be so many good asian (or "oriental") pianists is that there are so many of them! We do seem to forget that China accounts for a quarter of the world's population.

I'm not sure I'd know what to make of this discussion if I was Chinese - are people saying they are surprised that there are good asian pianists and that some explanation is required?

What is true is that many young pianists with a chinese cultural background seem to be able to do the practise (yes practise - thinking ten times and doing it once doesn't work for anything else - like football or tennis!) with more personal discipline. I've seen it here in England among a large group of very talented young pianists and its confirmed by their parents.

We should not be surprised that there are cultural differences between people - its what makes the world go around....

It would also explain why there appear to be so few good young Asian pianists from the Indian sub-continent. Theya re also Asian but the culture is very different. Not better or worse, just different...

Culture doesn't mean genes - in the context of this discussion it means exposure to classical music at a young age, access to musical instruments and availability of teachers. It also means things like attitude towards hard work, sacrifice and ambition for success. In "the west", many young people who devote themselves to music are considered freaks not only by their freinds at school, but also by many realtives and family friends. I don't suppose this happens much in China...

The asian population isnt the only reason why they are so good. It's because they are VERY hard workers in all aspects of life. Work, Music whatever. I'm chinese, but I was born in NZ so I don't have those characteristics drilled into me. My teacher and many other people hav esaid I hav the potential to be a very good piantists, the fact is I feel I have more important things to do.

Just because There are a lot of Chinese people around doesnt mean that European's can't be better. They just have to work hard. At my school I'm one of the best pianists but I'm not know as the best. A Kiwi (european) is!

Some people are just naturally gifted, I know someone who didn't learn piano until about 15 and now he's amazing, he did grade 7 (trinity) in his second year and is composing amazing pieces now!

So I actually find that offence when you say "Billyd" that " One reason there might be so many good asian (or "oriental") pianists is that there are so many of them!" (I know I could quote it but I can't be bothered rite now when I'm a little angry) also the word "them" is offensive, what make us so much different to you? we are the same, we breathe the same air and walk the same ground yet we are different to you? choose you're world's wisely next time because you wouldn't like to be "different" Trust me I know what it's like.

QUOTE (Billyd @ May 27 2005, 07:50 PM)

One reason there might be so many good asian (or "oriental") pianists is that there are so many of them! We do seem to forget that China accounts for a quarter of the world's population. In "the west", many young people who devote themselves to music are considered freaks not only by their freinds at school, but also by many realtives and family friends. I don't suppose this happens much in China...

A point of clarification here. In my contribution, I was not talking about what is happening in China, but here in Auckland New Zealand. Our Asian population (anywhere in Asia) is around 10 per cent of the greater region. And yet I picked up our North Shore Competitions Festival programme yesterday, and once again, Asian pianists of all ages dominated - in excess of 75 per cent I would say. Culturally, it is children of Western origin who you might expect to identify with Western musical traditions, but sadly those links in New Zealand are weakening.

Remember too that the distractions available to Western children are available to the Asian children who live here as well.

Some subscribers have claimed that sopme children of Chinese origins are being forced to practise extremely long hours, and they achieve success without really having their hearts in music. This may go some way to explain my observation - that there does not seem to be the same proportions of Asians teaching and performing as adults. I would be delighted if someone could tell us all we are wrong about this - because I think it would be sad if the statistics supported this hypothesis.

Also never forget that amongst all this possible learning against one's will, some outstanding individuals with a long-term commitment are emerging.

Sorry but are you just implying that all asians who play piano practice for long hours and are good? Thats just as bad as stereotyping a blonde.

Asian people want to learn how to play piano good, a lot of european's start an instrument then can't be bothered doing. I must say being more Kiwi than Chinese I think about it all the time.

Asian's aren't stopping European's from learning piano and being good at it, it's up to the individual. Like I said, at my school I'm considered a good musician but i'm not the best and neither is any other asian. My friend who is a kiwi is.

Dear Piano chik em,

thanks for your response. I'd agree with everything you say but I should clarify that when I say "there are so many of them" my point is that we should not be surprised that there are a lot of good chinese/Asian or whatever pianists when you are talking about quarter/half the world's population.

"them" is not meant to be offensive - so my apologies for using the expression. I just meant "them" in the sense of the people who were being referred to when I joined the thread.

What I'm really trying to say is that we should not be looking for explanations as to why there are so many good young asian pianists - we should celebrate the fact. I think its maybe because their cultures are often more supportive for young painists, but I am not Asian so I don't really know.

I am however European, and I can see huge cultural differences in the relatively small area of western Europe and the impact they have on attitudes to art and music. This again is something to be celebrated, not apologised for.

The sad fact of life in the UK at the moment however, is that if a boy is good at football everyone will understand the hours of practise he spends on the pitch, but if he wants to practise for 3 hours a day to become a fine musician, friends and family will start asking if it is good for him. I know, I've been there and you do end up feeling that piano playing is not valued as much as sport by most people here...

Good luck with your playing...

Billyd

Thanks for the clarification- get a lil jumpy over racisim esp. to asians because I experience it all the time and it gets awfully painful and tedious.

QUOTE (piano_chik_em @ May 28 2005, 09:23 AM)

Sorry but are you just implying that all asians who play piano practice for long hours and are good? Thats just as bad as stereotyping a blonde. Asian people want to learn how to play piano good, a lot of european's start an instrument then can't be bothered doing. I must say being more Kiwi than Chinese I think about it all the time. Asian's aren't stopping European's from learning piano and being good at it, it's up to the individual. Like I said, at my school I'm considered a good musician but i'm not the best and neither is any other asian. My friend who is a kiwi is.

When working through implications of statistics, it is hard to escape suggestions of stereotyping. For example in New Zealand, less than 15 per cent of the population is Maori - yet half the gaol population is Maori. All sorts of misleading stereotyping resulted from prejudiced interpretations of these statistics.

When you say "Asian people want to learn how to play piano good" while "a lot of european's start an instrument then can't be bothered doing" - then this too is surely a possible over-generalisation.

Yet it is undeniable that, for reasons I simply cannot understand, the piano performance scene among the young here now is dominated by members of an Asian populace of little more than 10 per cent of the population. It is still not clear to me whether Chinese students have a special and strong affinity to music from the heart of Europe; e.g. Austria, Germany, etc, and if so why. It may be that they work much harder than their Western peers - yet in principle I would have thought that children of a certain age would be likely to get bored at about the same time.

There may be many answers.

I might be just over-generalising European;s starting an instrument and then can't be bothered doing it. But i believe it's tru more that half the people I talk to "used to play and instrument"

QUOTE (piano_chik_em @ May 31 2005, 10:38 AM)

I might be just over-generalising European;s starting an instrument and then can't be bothered doing it. But i believe it's tru more that half the people I talk to "used to play and instrument"

I've been looking at the site which contains our registered music teachers:

http://www.irmt.org.nz/Search.asp

There would be a low proportion of teachers from Asia at this time. Child musicians however have been a big proportion for over a decade now. Can that be explained?

You say a European child starts a new instrument and then can't be bothered doing it; i.e. the child usually can't be bothered practising and the parents decide not to waste their money.

I would have thought it would be at least as like that this would happen to an Asian child? There are countless alternatives to playing a musical instrument these days.

cultural difference.....
yeh i think there is a huge difference in terms of how pushy parents are...
2 things - 1) pushing a child to start learning an instrument; 2) pushing a child to keep practising and continue learning an instrument

in HongKong everything is so competitive. lots of parents are actually 'forced' (by the culture) to force their children to learn an instrument.
so lots of lucky children got to learn piano without having to ask for it.

i started learning the piano at 9 - i didn't ask for it. it's just because my elder brother was playing so well, so my mum taught i better start learning too.
i didn't like it at the very beginning but i was progressing well coz i was forced to practise at least 1 hour everyday.
i did expressed to my mum that i don't really like playing the piano when i reach around grade 5 (probably because things are getting harder and harder ) but she didn't let me stop learning because 'you have been prograssing so well, why u want to stop?'
and then i continue........
it was really around grade 6 or 7, i found out that i really like music & playing the piano. all of a suddent, don't know why. i even chose to do HKCEE (=gcse) music (bad bad result tho ) and when i came over to study in UKi chose to continue by doing alevel music and grade 8 piano.
now i'm in uni, and teaching piano in UK as a part time job.....

the reason why i bring up my own story here is, my main 'key of success' in music, really was a cultural thing: everyone learns the piano so my mum let me start it; my mum is a typical chinese woman so she was pushy. the huge difference in culture is, children in the western countries are more 'respected' by their parents, they have more 'right' to make decision about their live. western parents really concern about whether their children are happy or not - if u're not happy abotu learning the piano, i will not force you then.
this sort of makes children grown up in the western culture have a happier childhood then those children in asia. in a way this more healthy for the development of a child; but in other way......if my mum (and lots of asian parent) didn't FORCE me to practise and FORCE me to keep learning even i complained about i don't like it and want to give up, or if my mum was so nice that she listened to what i said an allowed me to give up learning the piano - i really wouldn't have found out that i really have a passion about music, and i wouldn't see my full potential in playing the piano....
in UK, i have got friends and students who are just talented but they give up just becaues they want to give up and parents let them doing so....

i read the early posts..someone mentioned Yundi Li.
i did some research on him for my AL music exam, and i'm sure that somewhere he said when he was a kid he used to practise 6 hours everyday. there was one time that he wanted to give up and refuse to practise (i think he said he was watching tv instead?) - he got beaten up by his father for that....and he never dare to think about giving up piano again....
in western countries, i don't think there are many parents who would want to beat up their own children just because they want to give up learning an instrument....

from a previous post someone mentioned something like, western musician are more likely to continue playing music profesionally or to teach but not many chinese/asian musicians do so (even tho they got up to a very high standard in an early age)?
well my interpretation is, in the western countries, most brilliant musicians who can reach a really high standard DO reach a high standard because they truly like music since they start learning it (those who don't like learning are allowed to give up and never got to a higher standard, which they might have the potential to do so). but in the asia, lots of brillliant musicians do reach a high standart because they have to (- forced to practise). (e.g. you are not allowed to give up until u pass ur grade 8). therefore, reaching a target means they have done what they are TOLD to do, so they are free to do whatever they WANT to do next, i.e. give up; therefore theres is less chance for them to consider to choose music as their future career...

sorry about this looooooooog post....

I would like to thank Cathui for the most informative post. No apology is needed for message length when so much useful information has been transmitted.

It does raise the difficult question - what should a parent do when a child wants to stop learning an instrument at Grade 5 - when a year or two down the track, the value of the learning may be more fully appreciated?

Children do have human rights. There needs to be a middle way. Don't "stop paying because Johnny won't practise". But not looking for unrealistically work rates where the motivation is not in place.

It is of concern to read that a "cram school" mentality should exist in a field which should be pure satisfaction and pleasure - available to all.

Since my earlier posting, I have been told that the number of Asian piano teachers is actually increasing. I should have said earlier that most Asian students pay fees to attend our schools and go back to own country before having opportunity to teach. I do believe all the same that the ratio is not what you would expect, and Cathui certainly proposes some reasons. Thanks Cathui.

I always find this an interesting question: I'm not a parent but if I were I really would be baffled about what to do. All children at some point will usually say they want to give up something even if they do really actually enjoy it just because of the short-term benefit that they want to do something else now; when maybe they would enjoy what they are doing more now at a later date. I think that parents can be too pushy; but on the other hand I do think that parents get a bit of a hard time at the moment because any encouragement they give, or refusing to accept children giving up on a whim is considered pushy.

The problem, I think, is the different attitudes to music and other subjects, take maths for instance: no one cares if the children are enjoying or liking maths in any culture, they have to do it and there are some people who decide to study maths at university having hated it originally in school (and indeed I've heard of adults that have gone on to do Open University degrees later on having hated it in school). So would having a similar attitude to music and maths education be an infringment of human rights? I don't really think so; and I don't particularly agree that it would put so many people off music, as a lot of people suggest; even if it did, it would probably have the net result of finishing with more people enjoying music as many of those who gave up pre-grade 5 would probably have similar realisations to cathui having continued and more people would have had the opportunity to experience it in the first place.

I wonder, Chinese parents push and force their children to practise, do the children enjoy it when they grow up?

I think that without European and American teachers and conservatories, we wouldn't have any good Chinese pianists. The Chinese pianists might have superior technique - countless hours of practising everyday - but they need to study about interpretation and feeling, which is usually much better on the European side (because that's where most of the composers come from!).

In our country, we have compulsory education, and literacy and numeracy are regarded as the foundations of everything else including science, social studies, technology and the arts. If the teaching of music in schools could somehow be delivered to all, then it could take its rightful place and we would save a lot of money!

The reality is that music is one subject where one-to-one or small group teaching is hugely beneficial. I think that a child starting an instrument at age 5 and spending the same time on the instrument as he/she does at mathematics might reach about Grade 3 or 4 at age 10. That to me is satisfactory progress.

I believe Cathui was describing parents who are in more of a hurry than this! One example was given of a child practising 6 hours per day, which would be more hours per day than in a school classroom.

All the same I do like your analogy Another Pianist. If learning a musical instrument is deemed important, then allocating a similar time per day as to a school subject could be reaonably argued.

Whilst I would not say that this is false, I'd say that in this respect musicicans are somewhat spoilt! Yes it's true a musician will progress better/faster if they have one-to-one tuition but then so would a mathematician, I probably could have done A-level maths at the beginning of secondary school, not the end, had I been taught at my own pace, but the fact is that it's not practical to do this for people in all subjects; but for some reason music is the only subject in which this is deemed practical and it is deemed impossible to teach to any reasonable standard in larger groups.

If we'd always had one-to-one maths tuition we'd all say that it was impossible to teach that in groups too as everyone goes at a different pace and we'd be a nation of far better mathematicians and find what we call today a good standard in maths unacceptable.

The other thing of course is that to be a good mathematician one doesn't have to do hours of extra study that no one else does: this is simply because no one else does it. If the brightest mathamaticians in our schools were also doing 6 hours a day out of school maths practice then everyone else wanting to be a mathematician would have to do the same.

I do agree with your sentiments and children being pushed through grades by their parents when they're younger isn't necessarily good for their piano playing future anyway.

im Chinese myself and started piano of my own freewill but i find that living in England, there is an awful lot of competition between parents of a chinese community over whose child is the best musician/practises the most/is the best....
Its really overpowering and stressful. luckily my parents dont do that and have never pressurized me to practise or take grades if i dont want to. if i said i wanted to quit, they;d be fine with that but i dont want to quit because i enjoy music and i developed this enjoyment on my own. A few of my friends have parents who have pressurized them into doing music and i find that some of them dont enjoy it as much as they used to. At first its fun but now, for them its just a a race of who can get to grade 8 quickest and get the best marks for it. I think this is really unfair because otherwise the child may have enjoyed the music.
Another thing:if chinese pianists are supposedly good because they are forced into practising and playing, surely this cant be right because when forced you are not in the right state of mind, dont play well and have no motivation?

Who says that no mathematician does hours of study a day? The participants of an international physics or mathematics Olympics (at least here, in Indonesia), spend at least 8 hours a day discussing problems and their solutions and developing or reinventing formulas. On holidays they do 12.

In my school, they're close to that: I got extra math practice as I was in the school's math competition team. One of my friends, who has made it to province level, spends extra hours a day privately with my math teacher.

Right, teaching maths can be more beneficial with private classes, but math's pure theory and music's practical. Studying math together has other benefits too: you can discuss the whole thing together, since math's only writing and thinking, but it's impossible to discuss playing piano together and getting instant benefits from that, because even if you do discuss practical stuff you still have to practise and try it yourself at home, alone.

[quote=cathui,Jun 3 2005, 12:51 AM]
cultural difference.....
yeh i think there is a huge difference in terms of how pushy parents are...
2 things - 1) pushing a child to start learning an instrument; 2) pushing a child to keep practising and continue learning an instrument

in HongKong everything is so competitive. lots of parents are actually 'forced' (by the culture) to force their children to learn an instrument.
so lots of lucky children got to learn piano without having to ask for it.

[quote]

Lol...I begged my parents for so long for learning the piano and they begged me for so long to stop learning and playing it......lol but I'm also from HK.....funny isn't it??

I long for the day when people aren't defined by their race.

Just a thought... I have experience in all areas of this post. Both being raised in the UK and having parents that wanted the best and for me to be the best out of the community they were raised in.

I used to not want to practise cos I was forced but now music is my whole life and most of my kids life but I am not sure cos you one culture you are going to be instant success. I think it is all to do with the amount of hard work you put into it.

In HK all parents want the kids to learn music and it is like a competition. Last year I took on some chinese kids that were born in UK and then taken back to Shanghi for 3-5 years and returned recently to UK. They told me that everyone in their school had violin and piano in their daily school curriculum. Can you just imagine that over here? So they learn from very young age.... wonder where they store all the violins all day and how many pianos they need to a school?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that absolutely no mathematician does hours a day; some do. What I meant to say was that to get into the UK's leading universities to do maths one doesn't have to study for several hours a day; for music one does. As an example two people I know who went to Cambridge to study maths and who both got firsts, weren't doing the sort of hours in maths each evening throughout their childhood that musicians do. One of them was simply doing the maths homework that was set (although admittedly at to A-level time they would have been doing a little more to cover step work). The other did more than that because she did part of an OU degree in maths before starting university (she was incidentally also in the UK maths olympiad team). She was truly a genius though (and I don't use that word lightly) she was autistic and when she went to Cambridge came top of her year every year, she'll now just be in the second year of her PhD. Neither of them had to do the same amount of work to do what they did as a musician would have to do to get into the RAM (although the girl probably chose to).


Studying music together also has benifits, and yes, you do have to go and practise separately as well, but so do you in maths: that's what homework is. If you wanted to simulate classwork in this situation a lot of clavinovas with headphones would do the trick, would be expensive, but cheaper than a private teacher for every single child that could possibly use the room!

It seems to me that one reason there are so many good Asian pianists is because of the forcefulness of their parents and the amount of time they spend practicing.

I'm not Asian, but I go to a music school which is primarily Asian and have seen first hand the amount of work they put into the piano. After every lesson, teachers of Asian students go to the parents and discuss the child's progress and what he/she is doing wrong. Then their parents make them practice over and over and over until the technical aspect of the piece is perfect. I've also noticed that they tend to play very technical pieces with little or no feeling. You really don't have to be that talented to be a good pianist because if you practice enough, you can get the technique down. But you can't be a great pianist until you can get the feeling and emotion as well and that is something that can't be learnt. Now I'm not saying that Asians aren't talented or anything, I'm just saying that as a culture they seem to be so driven that it's no wonder they are so successful in piano. And yes, there are many great Asian pianists who play with feeling and all that.

As a non-Asian, it can be very intimidating to compete with Asians because they do practice so much. In fact, my piano teacher (who is not Asian) favors the Asians in her school because they work so much harder than the Americans. This sometimes makes the non-Asians (like me) not want to practice because it's kind of like, why bother? They're going to out do me anyway. (That's really my teachers fault though.) Of course, that's not a good attitude to take, I'm just saying that it does happen.

I don't mean to offend anyone or any race by my post. This isn't about race, its about culture and learning style. One isn't any better than the other, they're just different. If all cultures were the same, the world would be a pretty boring place...

*Note-- I'm referring to Asians in general, not as individuals. I know some Asians who aren't into practicing at all.

hi sotto voce,
i totally agree with you:










only one more thing to add about this:
in Chinese culture (or Asian culture in general?), we put more emphasis on 'respect' and 'obedience'.
As I and other ppl mentioned before, chinese parents are more pushy becaseu it's also a cultural thing for parents to compare their children with other parents' children, that lead to parents pushing their children learning all sorts of things (not only piano) as long as they can afford them. In addition to that there are high expectations of respect and obedience....
i'm not saying the western culture do not care about respecting and obeying parents (and also there are also lots of chinese children who pay no respect to their parents) , but i think it is the traditional thinking that makes chinese children more likely to continue doing something they don't enjoy.
In the case of piano learning, 'if u say i need to practice 1hour everyday i will practice 1 hour everyday then'....yes, most piano learners would progress well in teniques because they are REALLY practising a lot. possibily 'getting the notes and rythem and marked expression right' is there target,
but personally i think, you have to really ENJOY and INTERESTED in music to be able to interpret the expressive side of playing music. This might explain why there are players who are very good at techques but weak in expressing the feelingand emotion.




erm....i can't say i totally agree with you but i see the point why u say that.

lots of great Chinese/asian pianists first started their training in China/their own country, and very possibly their first teacher were Chinese as well, so i think Chinese piano teachers must also be superior enough to be able to teach piano in the first place.....
my point is, good Chinese pianists do not necessarily rely on /taught by European and American teachers and conservatories.
(it's not a definite 'without A there won't be any B' relationship between the two)

However, i do have to bring up that fact that, lots of excellent Chinese piano teacher were trained in some famous western music institution, bring back what they learnt from the western culture when they go back homeland to teach; and also excellent students are also encouraged to go overseas to receive intensive training of western training. so, good Chinese pianist are more or less influenced by European and american teachers and conservatories in some way....

i think, whether a pianist is able to play the feeling/emotional properly or not, does not totally depend on where his/her teacher is trained or the race of the teacher. i personally think that it is really depend on whether the pianist himself is motivated, and got the access to listen to lots of western music of varies style, thus to be able to 'feel' the grasp the 'true style' of western music.
this is true in all aspects i mean, if u want to play african drums authantically it would be very helpful if u can listen to how local africans play drums in their most natural situation.

about 'getting the access to' do so....
(back to square one) because of the pushy parents there are high demand of local teachers, and not all the teachers were able to get trained in western countries or taught by western teachers; and also not all of them would be motivated to play the music authantically, or to encourage students to do research in order to get the idea of how that music should sound like....

case study again - myself
i passed my grade 1 - 7 when i was taught by a local piano teacher in hongkong.
i wouldn't say she is not brillant, but for years, i was mainly taught to play the music by following everything that is written - do phrasing where there is a phrase mark, get louder at the point where creasendo is put.....
she nearly never taught me about how to interpred the music....
then i failed my grade 8.....left it for a year....and then i came over to UK and got a local English piano teacher (who is also a singer).
From this new teacher i really learn about how to play 'expressively', coz she very often use her singing to demonstrate what a phrase should sound like if it is play expressively and phrased properly - that increased my awareness of expressive side of playing the piano and i stopped merely following the epressive markings...
and then the 2nd thing that helped me a lot was doing the A2 music - part of the exam u have to intestigation - compare 2 or 3 recordings of the same piece played by different performers, investigate and contrasts the differences.......
(i did a comparison of Chopin's Nocturne in Eb Op.9, comparing the recording of Aurthur Rubenstine and Yundi Li)
this really helped (or pushed?!) me to learn about the composer, the style of the music at that particular period....and how to play the same thing really nicely expressively but differently.....

i would say, i might not be able to be a good pianist if i were not taugh in UK.but also, this 'thinking about expression' can be easily be done if i had a different local piano teacher who is not necessarily trained in western country, but is more aware of the need for students to be able to interpred music or is more encouraging to get students to use their ears and brain a bit more rather than relying on the written makings....

woohoo...another super long post

Apologies Fraul Beethoven

I thought we were looking at different cultures and different values systems?

Any correlation between the culture of the person and the race of the person should be regarded as purely coincidental

George

I don't mean to be pregidist here, as i too, am half asian so i have experience.. Well, you see, in my opinion its the pushy parents. Take mine for example, they're not pushy now, but that's because ive developed a genuine interest for the piano, but believe me twas ###### b4 heh heh...

And the attitude of most european families i've come across is "Well, if you want to play the piano, go ahead.. if not, then dont waste your time" But some children also just do it to keep the parents at bay...

Who Knows?

Yes! That's what I meant. You misunderstood me. I wasn't emphasizing on the benefits of race or place, but on the fact that Asian pianists have started to dominate the concert stage only recently, and most good interpreters LIVE in Europe or the U.S., because formerly it was from those countries many great pianists came. If this condition continues for, say, another 10 years, Chinese pianists can become teachers and conservatories and music schools, too!

Does racial discrimination to Asian pianists still exist? Well, not real discrimination, but around 10 years ago, my mother participated in a special series of masterclasses only attendable by 40 selected pianists from all of Canada. In the concerto class, which my mother didn't attend (I don't know whether this was just a class or the final round of a competition), 4 of the people playing were Chinese who seemed to be able to play any sonata or concerto you asked them to play. Only 1 person wasn't, I mean he was a white pianist (no offence in this word), but even though he could only play the Grieg Op. 16 in A minor, he got a whole load of praise and compliments from the teachers. Well, maybe he played better, but that was very contrast to Asian pianists.

Carthui.. my god could you write nemore pleasE?

If this is about culture then here is a piece of statistical information.

In the USA SAT scores - (the exams high school students sit to enable them to get into College/University) the persistent highest scorers were from Asian/Oriental Girls.

Many reasons are given i.e They watch the least amount of TV per week if at all, they are the most respectful and obedient to their parents who ask them to work harder, they play several intruments which enhance their IQ, they revise for hours, they rehearse for hours etc etc and maybe, I guess, they want the get into the best colleges/Universities with full scholarships.

What does this forum think of that factual statistic.

I think crying shame that so much youth is squandered. But that's me.

I edited the rest of my message as it might be thought contentious! But may I say that while an authoritarian milieu might produce a few single-minded instrumental geniuses, it stifles creativity. The lives of the VERY young are pre-planned along a route of specialism, achievement and goals rather than blended with 'being' and having the freedom to create.
That's why there are so few composers in asia compared with pianists.

The main difference between asian and european pianists is that on average the europeans are taller and heavier.

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you then...

I am Chinese as well, and I enjoy playing the Piano. I started because of being bugged by my friends saying that I would be a disappointment. Guess what? I pretty much beat down all of them. Now I am pretty much just playing for grades and fun and not for any musical career (A doctor I want to be).

All the good people in life have to practice! How many people do you know that had their names listed as the best in school didn't try hard eh? how many professionals had to try extremely hard to get on top (quite a lot, if not, just about all of them.) and how many of YOU had to try hard to achieve something that is a helluva lot better than everyone else?

in the end it's basically the same for everyone. One must try hard to achieve. No matter race they are, they're all the same.

I'm Chinese and I'm rubbish on the piano. It's not fair!!!

One reason why the chinese/oriental are better then most is that the kids are selected very young and are made to be specialised in different things. For example, some might be made to learn the piano and others are made to swim for the olympics. Obviously, by the time they reach most of our ages, they're exceeed us becasue we usually choose to learn at a later stage.

Actually, in my school tehre's this amazing girl who is good at a lot of things and was even asked to do 7 A levels and she doesn't even try hard at school. She's actually kind of a party girl.