Has anyone experience of the Saturday music schools that the RCM/RAM/Guildhall music schools run for kids from age 8 up to end of secondary school?
I've looked up the various college's websites on this, and they appear to offer amazing tuition for young talented musicians in their junior departments - for high fees. They describe it as equivalent to a full school day, so the child is effectively doing 6 school days during term time. But what are they like in reality?

- is it hard to get a place (I've read that auditions are held and it depends on which instrument) - what standard should an 8 year old roughly be? The RCM for example says that by age 11 the candidate should be grade 5 disctinction - but what about at age 8?
- is it gruelling (especially for the young ones) or is it fun and something to look forward to?
- has it improved the students standard of music dramatically?
- does it interfere with schoolwork as the child moves towards GCSE/A-level years?
- overall impression? Recommendable? Is it worth the effort/expense?
I'm considering putting my kid forward for one of these Saturday schools in a years time, and would appreciate any views from those who know anything about this.

Hi, I was a student at Junior Guildhall-this is going back many years, in the early 1980s! I really loved it-I had a fantastic piano teacher, who helped me enormously to get into music college and I looked forward to it so much that if I could have gone there every day, I would! That said, of course it does make a 6 day week which was tiring, I wouldn't have missed it for the world, but needless to say, the strong motivation to go needs to come from the youngsters themselves to make this a good option. In terms of schoolwork, no, it didn't affect grades/results at all-bear in mind that if a professional music career is what someone wants, then loads of practice and extra time needs to be put in wherever one goes. I do remember it was expensive-I was very lucky to have parents who could (just) afford to pay-if you go for this option, I would recommend looking into local authority funding/scholarships. It did give me a lot, but I was lucky to have an inspirational teacher I really got on with-this is a very individual thing, and without this, it might have been less valuable. Hard to recommend definitely if your child should try applying-I think the most important thing is, do they want to themselves? I wouldn't say it's worth doing if it's going to be a huge financial strain-better to explore other, perhaps more local options first. You could get similar benefits by joining local choirs, orchestras, explore Sat morning music schools locally-subsidised so more viable financially-summer courses, etc. Also, have you discussed this with your child's instrumental teacher? This should be your first port of call. Remember that going to a Saturday music college would involve a change of teacher-it's also important to weigh this up-if your child is happy, motivated and doing well with their existing teacher, then is changing the best thing to do? Lots to think about!

QUOTE

That said, of course it does make a 6 day week which was tiring

Dear Ipiano,
Wouldn't things have been easier (less 2 conventional subjects to study) if you had gone to Purcell/Menuhin/etc for secondary studies instead especially since serious homework starts at that level?

Do you recall the issues or why you chose a 6th school day at JG rather than go for a sec sch which specialise in music say, like Purcell which still offers a general education alongside music education???

Any thoughts?

QUOTE (Tess @ May 26 2005, 08:02 PM)

QUOTE That said, of course it does make a 6 day week which was tiring Dear Ipiano, Wouldn't things have been easier (less 2 conventional subjects to study) if you had gone to Purcell/Menuhin/etc for secondary studies instead especially since serious homework starts at that level? Do you recall the issues or why you chose a 6th school day at JG rather than go for a sec sch which specialise in music say, like Purcell which still offers a general education alongside music education??? Any thoughts?

Hi, I didn't leave anywhere near a specialist music school and wouldn't have wanted to board at that age. Also I liked my day school . Sat music school has the big advantage of being able to continue with your music training without totally disrupting your home life-but I'd say to Indy that it's worth seeing if you can go with your child to an open day/end of term concert, see what they think about it for themselves. I don't think it cuts much one way or the other, in terms of workload-as anyone considering a music career needs to put in the time-be it Saturday or during the week-but obviously it is a committment every single Saturday during term time. I wonder, on reflection now, though, when I look at the huge array of extra activities so many youngsters seem to take on nowadays, if it was any more demanding?

Thanks a lot, Ipiano. That was helpful.

We live in Greater London. My daughter has told me many times now she'd like to go to a London conservatory's Sat Music Sch where her teacher also taught. Why? Well, she's terribly fond of him!

However, she then saw an advert (believe it or not, at the GPs/surgery) on Purcell, and now she's keen on that, too. She asked me which is better? My answer? I said, "Sorry, darling, I haven't got a clue! But I'll check the ABRSM chat room just in case it helps!" HEY PRESTO! THERE'S YOU THERE giving advice.

Pretty sure she'll go next Sept (2006) because she's so determined and so tenacious! Her headmistress (who was a music teacher) said she's exceptionally talented and fortunately, her teacher seems to agree. Told me that he's very pleased with her progress. I suspect it's something to do with the ridiculous amt of daily practice she subjects herself to...

Having said that, I am genuinely proud of her self-reliance and self-motivation (whether she's musically talented or not we told her)!!!

INDY,
I know of 2 boys in 2 different conservatories' Saturday Music Schools.

One is aged 8 and has passed grade 8 and the other is 10 and has also passed grade 8. So, maybe it's grade 5 distinction by 11, or, grade 8 pass at any age? I suspect JG is more balanced and all-rounded bec if you check out their website, they don't ask for distinctions. On the other hand, common sense would suggest a need for distinction/s (they are talking about the child's playing level - exams need NOT be taken) if your student is looking for scholarships, I guess.

Does that help?

Fascinating - thx jpiano and Tess for your comments. Keep 'em all coming!
The websites obviously say great things about their respective courses, but jpiano it's great to hear it 'from the horses mouth' as it were! I'm delighted it was something that you looked forward to.
I want to provide lots of options to my little one and let her choose. At the moment she does all the local saturday music stuff and practices lots and is very keen. It will all depend on what she wants to do herself, at the moment she isn't aware of the possibilities, and I'm only learning about them myself!

Tess it seems incredible that grade 8 piano can be achieved at 8!!! Wonders never cease! I hadn't considered the specialist music schools for full-time education, and I will look into this too.
Best of luck with your daughters music progress.
What I don't want is to not investigate these possibilities and later look back and think 'shame I didn't know about that back then'.

Hi
I have recently joined this discussion forum, and was very interested to read of other parents' experiences.
I have a daughter who is 6. She plays piano (but not to Grade 8 - is that for real?! and how 'balanced' is that child?) She also learns violin, we have been told by both of her instrumental teachers that she has lots of talent and extraordinary potential.
Her godmother plays the oboe, and at Christmas she expressed an interest in learning this. We have been told she is too young and to start when she's about 9 if still keen, but maybe try a single reed instrument first.
She is fortunate in that she moves up to the local junior school in September, which is renowned for its extra curricular music. We recently visited an open evening there, where she decided she would like to learn clarinet as a way into the oboe. Being a sucker for a bargain, I bought one on ebay (have to say I'm impressed with it!). As I am a string player, I bought a tutor book, mainly for my own reference.
The clarinet arrived on Wednesday. (now Friday eve) I cannot persuade her to put the clarinet down, and she is working her way through the book (I am frantically looking at it when she's out the house/in bed to try and keep ahead in order to support her, but soon I know that won't be possible. I don't know whether to wait until Sep for her to begin lessons, or try and start her sooner. Anyway, that's a discussion for another day......

So I guess what I'm saying is that she is clearly a talented musician, and I'm in the same place as you Indy Exp, as I am now starting to explore the possibilities for her. At the moment I am happy for her to go to her junior school in Sep as I am confident she will be well supported there for the time being, but I am also mindful of the fact that if there is the opportunity to become involved in something 'bigger' then I don't want her to miss it IF it's right for her. After I read your posting, I looked at the websites of the main Music Colleges. Whilst it sounds great, we live a couple of hours away by train from London, and it is a HUGE commitment, both financially and practically.

So really we are thinking of two possible options long term - the first is a choristership at our 'local' cathedral, and the other is specialist music school. We have been to an open day at the choir school recently and she loved it, as she adores to sing but doesn't take lessons. Auditions are in Feb 06 for a choristership lasting 4 or 5 years, and from then could be a music scholarship to an independent senior school or music school. We have also spoken to her about music school, and she likes that idea too - basically I think the thought of being in a place where she was able to make music for a large amount of her time is what she wants to do. Like Tess said, she is absolutley determined, and yes, she's only 6, but I think it's fair to say not your average 6 year old.

I am very conscious of the fact that I do NOT want to be a pushy parent, (despite the frequent mentions of 'I' in this posting, my husband will be the first to admit that music is a completely alien concept to him, and he struggles with hymns in church! He's trusting my instincts on this one!) Anyway, I am aware that we have a talented daughter, and as a parent I am struggling to know how far do you guide their future choices and let opportunities pass by, and when do you have to get a bit 'pushy' (sorry, don't like the word but can't think of a better one) and actually start pursuing things more seriously?

Does anyone have any experience of this from a parent's point of view? Or has anyone on here been to a specialist music school/choir school and regrets it, or similarly is glad of that opportunity?

I hope you don't think I'm going away from the original thread too much, I hope this will be of interest to parents in a similar position everywhere.

Thanks.

Hi!
I thought I'd add another dimension to the conversation - I am currently part of the Junior RNCM in Manchester.

I'm in my second year there and I'm 16. I was really worried when I got there that everyone would be really really good but really really serious! The truth is that everyone is that good and we all do take it seriously but I have made some very good like-minded friends there and everyone is really enthusiastic about what they do.

As long as your daughter shows a love for it, it is a fantastic opportunity. There is always one thing that is highlighted to us often though - "Grades are not the be-all and end-all!" So many people (definitely not anyone I know at Junior RNCM!) are so focussed on what grade they are doing and what mark they get that the joy is lost - at the end of the day it's just a number!!

Generally the people at these music colleges will see potential - how is there a point in teaching anyone that knows everything? (If that's humanly possible....)

I hope some of this babble has been useful!

Kate
x

Hi JinglyB


I think it' is sometimes unrealistic to expect young children like your daughter to be motivated to do the practise that is required to become a "good" musician all the time - they are still babies at 6 and 7 , even though these children appear to be more mature in some ways than their peers.

Surely as the parent it is up to us to become "pushy" at times. After all, we are the adults and know that life isn't always about doing what we want - sometimes there are other factors that are important and in my experience ( my daughter is 11), the times when she does't want to practise is when she is finding the pieces or the technical exercises difficult. However once she has done her practise and realised that she can play the piece after, all practise becomes pleasurable again.

In my opinion these children can make their own decisions about a career when they are older - but often it is too late for them by then to make the decision to become a professional musician.

As a parent it is easy to be made to feel guilty about children spending a lot of time practising and yet how guilty will (or do in my case ) we feel when the children turn round and say "why didn't you make me practise?

As for the junior colleges or specialist music schools - maybe this decision will be up to your daughter - mine isn't ready to board yet and so Saturday morning school is the best option for us. Should she decide when she's older that she wants to go to a music school then I suppose I shall have to make that hard decision and let her go!!

Indy,
to answer your surprise/query, yes, I believe some kids can play grade 8 pieces at 8. Well, Kit Armstrong played the piano way beyond grade 8 at aged 8! Piano concertos in public!!! The real stuff! And, guess what? He didn't think his mum was pushy... As I've said, we are talking abt playing level, NOT exam grade. Kit must be in his early teens now. Well, he just played a free lunchtime recital this Tuesday at the Royal Academy of Music, London. I had to miss it because of my son's illness.

Indy, the piano tutor can tell what level your child can play. We like it that way bec for us, exams can take the joy out of playing. Besides as we told our daughter who loves playing in her Sat orchestra, Chopin and Mozart are considered among the greatest but neither ever sat for an exam! But every child is unique. Some unusual kids actually like the thrill of an exam.

JinglyB, you said-

QUOTE

Whilst it sounds great, we live a couple of hours away by train from London, and it is a HUGE commitment, both financially and practically.

JinglyB, my daughter's tutor teaches at RCM and he said many of his students lived far away outside London but they travel to RCM every Sat. Thought it'd be interesting for you to know that there'll be lots of folks from outside London just like your little girl. Still, it IS a huge commitment, I'd agree. However, since most of the students are 11+, you have PLENTY of time to consider your options... . The youngest they take is 8 but it can be lonely... to enter at 8 - even Vanessa Mae complained that she had always felt like a baby in the company of other musicians.

My 8-yr old daughter will play in an orchestra this September (every Sat) where everyone else in it is a youth/at secondary school. She wonders whether she'll fit in. We assured her that the common thread is a love of music-making so it shd be all right but if not, we can always take her elsewhere - we don't know WHERE yet but we are NOT telling her! Haha!

Hi Tess
- Who does your daughter learn with?

Why do you ask, Frances? Do you live in London or Essex?

Tess -no I don't live in London or Berkshire, but know a couple of the RCM teachers so was simply being curious -sorry, no other reason.

-sorry Essex not Berkshire!

He's absolutely brilliant, Frances. There is NO way - we are dead certain of that - my daughter could have played grade 3 (violin) exam pieces in school within 6 months of starting from scratch, if he hadn't been so technically sound/meticulous, so clear, patient and inspirational to our kid. He really inspired her in a quiet but friendly sort of way. We'd be very happy to recommend him to you. Do you live nearby?

QUOTE (Kate @ May 27 2005, 07:38 PM)

Hi! I thought I'd add another dimension to the conversation - I am currently part of the Junior RNCM in Manchester. I'm in my second year there and I'm 16.  I was really worried when I got there that everyone would be really really good but really really serious!  The truth is that everyone is that good and we all do take it seriously but I have made some very good like-minded friends there and everyone is really enthusiastic about what they do. As long as your daughter shows a love for it, it is a fantastic opportunity.  There is always one thing that is highlighted to us often though - "Grades are not the be-all and end-all!"  So many people (definitely not anyone I know at Junior RNCM!) are so focussed on what grade they are doing and what mark they get that the joy is lost - at the end of the day it's just a number!!   Generally the people at these music colleges will see potential - how is there a point in teaching anyone that knows everything? (If that's humanly possible....) I hope some of this babble has been useful! Kate x

Hi Kate!

Very interested to read your post. My daughter (6) is at the Junior Strings Project at RNCM at the moment, which she enjoys and we are anxious to maintain, as long as the transport continues to be do-able.

At the moment I would be reluctant to lose her from the family for a whole Saturday each week but I suppose it may be when she is a fair bit older that that is something she wanted to do. I would be really interested if you could tell me how late you can leave it- i.e. can you join the Saturday School at any age between 8 and 18? Is there a "main intake" year after which places become few and far between?

Indy - the thought is some years off yet, but while you are marshalling your info for the future, have you visited the website of the national children's orchestra? They have a training orchestra week in Yorkshire in the summer holiday for children from age 9-12 which looks like a good laugh. Obviously not an alternative to a regular course, but it's just another thing going on to be vaguely aware of.

Thanks for the post Tess - didn't mean to be intrusive - maybe when the pm's are back on we could speak! It is so amazing watching the children progress when they are with inspirational teachers isn't it?

My daughter is learning with teachers from the Guildhall but thanks for the offer - perhaps we'll meet at some stage during their musical life!!

I know a lot of people who go to the junior departments of the London conservatoires and they all seem to love it- obviously if you like music enough it's no big sacrifice to give up your saturday, even if it does effectively mean 6 days a week at school. I would have done anything to have those opportunities, but unfortunately they don't exist in Ireland
On the other hand, even though I didn't have the opportunities, it hasn't stopped me doing better in terms of being offered places to the conservatoires themselves than many of the people who actually attended their junior depts. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that although the junior depts are obviously brilliant, if expense/time/whether your child has got a G5 distinction at 11 (I hadn't even started at 11) is going to be an issue, there's no need to go to a junior dept- your child can still be successful by choosing one of the many other options for music education.

Wow - its great to hear about other parents concerns and ideas!! I'm stuck for words -almost!
I get accused of this 'pushy parent' thing regularly - strangely its from other parents who don't think music matters that much.
The pushiness I do (and am not afraid to admit it!) is completely oblivious to my 6 yr old - she's having a whale of a time!! If she asks me one more time when the music exams are! Yes she's one of those who runs into the exam with excitment! There is no pressure on her - and she does lots of non-music activities too including dolls and messing around.
I don't think she is a prodigy (not ruling it out mind, I just may not see it myself yet!) but she loves music and I think it has helped her hugely at school and at a personal level, giving her confidence and purpose and a sense of achievement.
We don't live near London's music schools. Today (Fri 27th) in 31 degrees, I took the little one to London for a 1 hr private lesson with a piano RCM tutor - during school time! - and despite the exhaustion (for me carrying tons of stuff - little one played games and enjoyed the trip!) and 7 hours commuting by trains (8 of them, mostly delayed!) it was phenomenal. I got a glimpse of the Saturday music school routine, and it won't be a problem if it's right for the little one.
Tess, I didn't have the heart to ask this tutor what he thinks of the little ones prospects. I'm sure he would have a strong view, and in time I've no doubt this will surface. For now we're happy with a great lesson and lots of things to practice.
frances- you say the decision may be up to 'your daughter' - my daughter 'goes with the flow'! I hope to offer the possibilities and let her choose. Just finding the possilibilites is not easy! The boarding-school option can't be an easy one - haven't faced that one yet.
Kate - thx for your words of practical experience - it was useful.
I will look into the national school orchesta Zoda - thx for that (saw it on the web some time back but forgot about it).

My son's friend goes to a Conservatoire junior department. He's 11 now and has been going for almost 2 years and seems to enjoy it. He would have been 9 when he started, may have been 8 when he auditioned and I think he was around grade 3 on piano and violin at that stage.

At what point should an individual approach a specialist music school and or/junior department? I realise that teachers here are looking for potential equally if not more than actual achievement, so is it a case of the earlier the better or to leave it until they are actually old enough to audition?
Having read the posts on here, I do feel that the right thing to do for us would be to keep on going as we are for the time being, but to explore all the possible options for the future, but when do you actually start to knock on the doors of these places and say 'Please can you listen to my daughter and tell me what to do!!'
Can anyone help, or advise me who I could speak to for a bit of guidance? (I have spoken with her instrumental teachers, both are quite 'laid back' at this stage)

I don't suppose there is an absolute right or wrong time - it depends on your daughter and her teachers and whether she is getting all she needs at the moment. We left it until our daughter was 11 - she had a brilliant teacher who taught her piano until last year when he sadly died and she had lessons with one of his ex-students who taught her theory and did exam work with her. For us this was enough - she passed grade 5 theory when she was just 9 with 82%.

sent that before I'd finished!
However now she is ready to go to a junior college I think, especially for all the other opportunities. Anyway it's really up to you -each child is different!

JinglyB,
Frances is right. Take it easy, cool! It's MUCH too early for us to get excited. Be careful, as parents, we don't want to get stressed out too soon.

Our friend's girl was taught by an RAM professor from a very early age! AMAZING little girl! She then went to RAM Sat School as a young teenager. She absolutely loved it there. She has always been in love with music from a very early age and also was a disciplined self-starter from the word, go (NEVER-had-to-nag-her-to-practise-type) just like your and Indy's little girl. However, at 18, she threw away her music almost completely. That's why my hubby and I take things one day at a time even though folks around us keep telling us she's talented. We just do our homework as best we can and leave the rest to God. If one is an atheist, one could probably still say - let tomorrow take care of itself, today has sufficient trouble of its own.

Anyway, we do have an answer to your query because our daughter's headmistress mooted the idea of Sat music school to us in the first place. She was a strings teacher who spotted our girl's talent at school and one of her students had gone to JG and was very happy there. Years later, this ex-student ended up happily as a music therapist.

We then told her teacher she has a very long way to go yet but he did not seem to agree. He said, "They look at potential, you know." He seems to think she could get to grade 5 within 2 yrs. We were amazed. So I then contacted (by e-mail) the head of JG (since JG was the one strongly recommended by her headmistress). His advice? Very specific. He said - It is best to wait till she can PLAY grade 5 pieces with ease. Then come for an audition though it's up to you, really; if you wish to come earlier for an audition, that is fine, too. The best person to ask is (as we did) the child's teacher who is bound to let you know WHEN the RIGHT time comes PLUS even now, the heads of the junior departments of RAM, RCM, Guildhall and Trinity. They are sure to give you helpful advice. Just e-mail them!

Hope this is helpful to you, JinglyB.

Indy, it's not called the national "school" orchestra. It's called the "NATIONAL CHILDREN ORCHESTRA" and they have a helpful website. Have fun, looking it up!

Thanks for your advice - very sound.
As long as she is happy then I'll take it slowly. Like I said before, I am confident she will be very well supported at her new school, and will keep going with the lessons and take it from there.
But it's very useful to know what's out there and to hear from parents who are and have been in a similar position. So thanks all.

As the saying goes 'What's for you won't go by you' it's just a case of knowing what there is to choose from!

I'm sure you will make the right decision for your kids - for me, it has been the most amazing, humbling experience to watch my girls learn and perform on their instruments. The down side for me has been the nerves and the feeling sick before they perform I - for them it has been the opportunity to play and sing and the look on their faces when they have performed well has made all the worry and financial anxiety worth while. It is not often that you get the chance to see your children fully fulfilled!

I wish you all the very best.

Saturday is a great day of the week, to be getting outside - getting some fresh air and exercise .. maybe playing a sport. A healthy body goes hand in hand with a healthy mind.

Oh .. and don't forget to have good rest and recreation, and family time in the afternoon.

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 28 2005, 10:07 PM)

Saturday is a great day of the week, to be getting outside - getting some fresh air and exercise .. maybe playing a sport. A healthy body goes hand in hand with a healthy mind. Oh .. and don't forget to have good rest and recreation, and family time in the afternoon.

I didn't want to be outside playing sport on Saturdays when I was a teenager-I wanted to play my music! And Sat music college was the most fun place to do it-plus I made brilliant friends there and enjoyed myself. I have taught plenty of teenage students who spend Saturday afternoons hanging around the local shopping centre-I'm not saying that's wrong, just that it's not exactly family time as such. And teenage years are when you're often trying hard to establish your own friends and identity outside your family anyway.

QUOTE (jpiano @ May 28 2005, 10:38 PM)

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 28 2005, 10:07 PM) Saturday is a great day of the week, to be getting outside - getting some fresh air and exercise ..  maybe playing a sport.  A healthy body goes hand in hand with a healthy mind. Oh .. and don't forget to have good rest and recreation, and family time in the afternoon. I didn't want to be outside playing sport on Saturdays when I was a teenager-I wanted to play my music! And Sat music college was the most fun place to do it-plus I made brilliant friends there and enjoyed myself. I have taught plenty of teenage students who spend Saturday afternoons hanging around the local shopping centre-I'm not saying that's wrong, just that it's not exactly family time as such. And teenage years are when you're often trying hard to establish your own friends and identity outside your family anyway.

I would have preferred the music as a teenager myself. That is why I am now such an unfit, overweight....

Lets start with age 8. I feel that is really too young to be committing a child to a 6-day "school" week of any kind. By that age, there is no reason why a more balanced life style could not be achieved. Some outdoor activity, fresh air, and developing the exercise habit! Maybe even assisting Mum and Dad in the garden if you get lucky.

By the time teens are reached, and the value of such activities are appreciated, then it is far more likely that the pattern will continue.

Of course at other times in the weekend, some individual practice or theory (at a relaxed pace) can be fitted in.

George, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! I really think it depends on the individual child, you can't say what's right for one is right for everyone. When I was a teenager, I got plenty of exercise during the week doing tons of dance classes . I hated sport, still do, but fresh air is fine- I like doing my own garden nowadays and it makes a change from all my other occupations which are very sedentary these days....

Well spoken, Jpiano.

QUOTE

I would have preferred the music as a teenager myself. That is why I am now such an unfit, overweight....

QUOTE

Lets start with age 8. I feel that is really too young to be committing a child to a 6-day "school" week of any kind. By that age, there is no reason why a more balanced life style could not be achieved. Some outdoor activity, fresh air, and developing the exercise habit! Maybe even assisting Mum and Dad in the garden if you get lucky.

But here we are not talking about the 'average' child.
This is about children who have serious talent and really do see working on their music as the best time they can have.
They don't see it as a heavy commitment as such ( I think it is the parents who make the sacrifices NOt the children)... it is such a natural part of their lives.

Dear George,
You sound like you are concerned abt the pushy parent syndrome. A narrowing of the child's hobbies/activities/interest. That is good and laudable. I can see where you are coming from...

However, our daughter who is 8 - yes, only 8 - has told us thrice that she really missed Sat music school! This is bec it's half term. No Sat music school for 3 weeks is a big deal to her. There is no place else she'd rather go on a Sat. She's very academically inclined and a bookworm so a "6-day school" routine/schoolwork is easy to her.

She hates shopping. So we took her to the park for cycling and more swimming to cheer her up. I love nature and long walks but she does not like long walks or sports in general though she likes swimming and is very good at karate. So we let her do karate and swimming.

The point is, some kids are just abt mature enough to know what they like and CAN handle the responsibility that goes with it. For example, she practises her music twice daily on her own initiative. There is no need to force her into it at all! No pressure from us as her parents.

THERE IS NO SACRIFICE, either, because we do for her what we do and do not consider such as sacrifices. Why? Because we love our kids. We extend ourselves for them bec we WANT to - it's a joyful, liberating and humbling experience. I think Dr Scott Peck in his book "The Road Less Travelled" explains this beautifully!

We want to see our kids as self-motivated, self-reliant and confident individuals who are fulfilled in what they do (not just musically) presently.... and who will be independent, sociable and mature in the future. Her brother (who is very musical and autistic) is very different altogether. So, a different approach will be taken. Thus it is not for one person to advise what is good/negative for other parents' kids.

Do you have kids, George? If you do, you would have known this trite but absolutely glorious TRUTH:

EVERY CHILD IS UNIQUE.

Tess

Well said Tess.

I agree entirely with what you have said, and can empathise totally with you over your daughter - mine is very similar.

Which Sat music school does she go to as a matter of interest? Mine just goes to the local county run one at the moment, which she loves - it's very good.

Hi JinglyB,
She goes to one which is run by the local London borough. We also have a church orchestra which she wants to join but the std in the church orchestra is much higher than her youth orchestra! So, we told her to wait first and then decide at 11+ but in the meantime, to take one day at a time.

Tess

Mmmm, wise words, thanx for your advice to me earlier in this thread.


What instruments does she play, and for how long?

QUOTE

What instruments does she play, and for how long?  - JINGLYB

Not long. 8 months ago. She has a BRILLIANT teacher! He's very good with young children/people as he has lots of exp with them where he teaches (at the Junior Dept at RCM). That's why she's fond of him. He's also very clear, patient, meticulous (!!!) and has a sort of gentle sense of humour.

If you are a meticulous violin teacher, you cannot survive without a sense of humour! She started with him (from the scratch) last autumn when she was nearly 8. She finished grade 1 in the first term and grade 2 in the 2nd term. Now she's sitting for grade 3 (violin exam) this July. It's what she wants and since her teacher agrees, we let her... within reason.

Tess

QUOTE

What instruments does she play, and for how long?

QUOTE

Not long. 8 months ago.

PS. Her headmistress thinks that it's exceptional to play grade 3 exam pieces after 6 months of lessons BUT to be fair, it's not. Soojin Han (ex-Purcell) and now a young soloist was also abt 8 yrs old when she began her violin study and she took the same time (8 months) to get to grade 3.

I also read today that Keys (someone who contributes to this forum) finished grade 3 in one year, too.

hi all - does money figure in all this at all? what kind of disposable income are we looking at here to enable a child to benefit from this saturday school stuff. id love to send my daugher (age10) to one but you have to pay (lots) and most seem to be either in London or up north. we are about 2hrs drive away from London. Just out of interest do most of u out there have yr kids at state or fee paying schools? Unfortunately private education is not an option in our family. so where to next i wonder for a talented child? Also, following the 3000 applicants thread, u know that a professional musician's life is not a cozy one. Average salary £24K, supplemented with session work if u can get it & giving lessons to kids. Compare that with USA rates for section leaders in the Boston Symphony compared to the same at the RPil & it doesnt compare v. well. A full rounded life with lots of music in it is best & keep up friendships within music as well as other stuff!
Comments pls on the £ question!
Liz.

[quote=fiddlersmum,Jul 8 2005, 01:04 PM]
[quote=Tess,May 26 2005, 08:02 PM][quote]That said, of course it does make a 6 day week which was tiring[/quote]

hi all - does money figure in all this at all? what kind of disposable income are we looking at here to enable a child to benefit from this saturday school stuff. id love to send my daugher (age10) to one but you have to pay (lots) and most seem to be either in London or up north. we are about 2hrs drive away from London. Just out of interest do most of u out there have yr kids at state or fee paying schools? Comments pls on the £ question!
Liz.

[/quote]

Hi Liz,
I have no idea on the £ question but what we plan to do is simply give RCM junior dept financial evidence of the total income of our sole breadwinner and it will be VERY OBVIOUS to them that we simply CANNOT afford their fees!

I went to the Royal Northern Junior School in my 4th year at secondary school and absolutely loved it. The lessons were:

principal instrument - 1 hour.
second instrument - 45 minutes.
aural - 45 minutes/1 hour - can't remember which.
ensemble lessons - 1 hour.
harmony - 1 hour.

I think we started at 9 and finished at 2. So I must have got my calculations wrong somewhere as I know we also had time for a short mid-morning break, and a break for lunch. So maybe all the other lessons bar the principal instrument were 45 minutes only. I used to go home at 2, but those who played orchestral instruments as principal instruments stayed on for the orchestra. My parents gave me the option of going to Chetham's specialist music school, but I didn't want to go - too intensive, and I enjoyed being 'normal' the rest of the week. Plus I would have had to give up my piano teacher as he didn't teach at Chetham's and I wasn't willing to do that. I didn't like the idea of being forced to eat/breathe/sleep music constantly in a specialist music school, and I liked living at home! I suppose I was the same at university - I didn't socialise with the other music students, all my friends studied English, Classics or Maths! Much more balanced in my opinion!!