To all music teachers:

I am concerning that students who learn music instruments now days are too keen to "speed up" themselves trying to learn big, massive, fancy works like Beethoven's Sonatas, Concertos or Impromptus...etc. They have not yet mastered the basic skills before they go on to the difficults ones. Therefore I think, it is not appreicated and I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!! I would say to her " You have to learn how to walk before you can run." Does anyone agree with me? If not, what is your point of view?

your sincerely,
Y.C.A. Chan
(a "just started teaching" piano teacher)

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ May 30 2005, 06:45 AM)

To all music teachers: I am concerning that students who learn music instruments now days are too keen to "speed up" themselves trying to learn big, massive, fancy works like Beethoven's Sonatas, Concertos or Impromptus...etc. They have not yet mastered the basic skills before they go on to the difficults ones. Therefore I think, it is not appreicated and I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!! I would say to her " You have to learn how to walk before you can run." Does anyone agree with me? If not, what is your point of view? your sincerely, Y.C.A. Chan (a "just started teaching" piano teacher)

Are you posting this on behalf of someone else or are you that "just started teaching" (sic) piano teacher?

In future, do cite works in a proper manner (with reference to keys and opus/work numbers). When you say "Chopin's farewell Prelude", which prelude is that?? Some people may be aware of informal or unofficial nicknames attached to certain works - e.g. Chopin's Prelude in D flat, Op. 28 No. 15 is called the "Raindrop" - but not everyone is familiar with such nicknames...

Anyway, as far as I'm aware, Chopin's Waltz (Valse) No. 9 in A flat, Op. post. 69 No. 1 is nicknamed the "Farewell", so which Prelude has the same nickname??

QUOTE (tuba_mirabilis @ May 30 2005, 08:00 AM)

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ May 30 2005, 06:45 AM) To all music teachers: ...  I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!! I would say to her " You have to learn how to walk before you can run." Does anyone agree with me? If not, what is your point of view? your sincerely, Y.C.A. Chan (a "just started teaching" piano teacher) Are you posting this on behalf of someone else or are you that "just started teaching" (sic) piano teacher? In future, do cite works in a proper manner (with reference to keys and opus/work numbers). When you say "Chopin's farewell Prelude", which prelude is that?? Some people may be aware of informal or unofficial nicknames attached to certain works - e.g. Chopin's Prelude in D flat, Op. 28 No. 15 is called the "Raindrop" - but not everyone is familiar with such nicknames... Anyway, as far as I'm aware, Chopin's Waltz (Valse) No. 9 in A flat, Op. post. 69 No. 1 is nicknamed the "Farewell", so which Prelude has the same nickname??

I don't think you should get too pedantic at this point. The topic is well-understood.

I am trying to think of ANY Chopin work I would set for a student after 6 months of tuition. I would think one of the earliest opportunities in the ABRSM system would be one of the optional pieces in Grade VI, Prelude in B minor.

Somehow the student needs to understand that a simple piece played musically is more satisfying than a complex piece with all the correct notes if you are lucky.

This is not a race. Of course I agree with you YCA Chan.

QUOTE

Somehow the student needs to understand that a simple piece played musically is more satisfying than a complex piece with all the correct notes if you are lucky. This is not a race.

I totally agree, and I often get violin students asking if they can play works such as the Tchaikovsky violin concerto or Brahms Hungarian Dance No. 5.

Sometimes the only way around it is to put the music in front of them and see what reaction you get. Normally it's one of total shock and disbelief from the student, who then proceeds to say "But it doesn't sound that difficult".

Usually a polite explanation of how long someone would have been playing and what else they would have to have played before they tackle such a work, is enough to convince them they won't manage it themslves.

I think the way society currently portrays success has something to do with it. There is a concept pushed out by the media that we have to be the best, the greatest and the quickest to achieve our goals, otherwise we aren't deemed a success. This is totally wrong.

When children get asked what they want to be, a lot of them will reply with, "rich and famous". The fact that we can't all be rich and famous is something that doesn't occur to them at that age, but unfortunately the 'rich and famous' bit has become the icon of what is considered a successful person. It's no wonder they grow up with the idea that life is a race and they have to beat everyone else to it.

You complain that people want to try things???

Wish I had that problem more often.. in my experience most people need persuading to try something which looks a bit tricky..

QUOTE

I think the way society currently portrays success has something to do with it. There is a concept pushed out by the media that we have to be the best, the greatest and the quickest to achieve our goals, otherwise we aren't deemed a success. This is totally wrong.

well said. And since success (of some kinds) is something that is instantly achievable , working away patiently at a project is therefore somehow less worthy and unnecessary.


Maggie

I know I am not ready to play Chopin but there's no harm done in trying

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ May 30 2005, 06:45 AM)

To all music teachers: I am concerning that students who learn music instruments now days are too keen to "speed up" themselves trying to learn big, massive, fancy works like Beethoven's Sonatas, Concertos or Impromptus...etc. They have not yet mastered the basic skills before they go on to the difficults ones. Therefore I think, it is not appreicated and I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!! I would say to her " You have to learn how to walk before you can run." Does anyone agree with me? If not, what is your point of view? your sincerely, Y.C.A. Chan (a "just started teaching" piano teacher)

Yes, I totally agree.
David

The answer to a pupil wanting to play something much too difficult for them is to put the music in front of them. That stops them dead.

Occasionally, a pupil will present their attempt at a piece they have been learning 'secretly'. Their performance my not be any good, but I am delighted with their initiative.

QUOTE

I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!!

Why get angry?

QUOTE (pianist_1210 @ May 30 2005, 06:45 AM)

I am concerning that students who learn music instruments now days are too keen to "speed up" themselves trying to learn big, massive, fancy works like Beethoven's Sonatas, Concertos or Impromptus...etc. They have not yet mastered the basic skills before they go on to the difficults ones. Therefore I think, it is not appreicated and I was so angry that one of my students who want to learn Chopin's farewell Prelude after only half year of learning on the piano!! I would say to her " You have to learn how to walk before you can run." Does anyone agree with me? If not, what is your point of view? your sincerely, Y.C.A. Chan (a "just started teaching" piano teacher)

Thats unbelievable! You have only just been playing the piano for three years, passed grade 8 with distinction, then did grade 7, and you are talking about (presumably others) speeding things up to learn pieces before being ready. As if that isn't bad enough, I remember another thread somewhere else about showing off. The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

If you are 'angry' because one of your students is ambitious and wants to play things before she is ready, maybe you don't ahve the temperament for teaching. Or are you scared she's maybe better than you think you are?

I agree with noodle. At least it shows you that they want to be successful and want to aim at something. You coule always say, "I'm glad to see your initiative. I don't yet think you are capable of playing the whole thing. We can either leave it as something to look forward to or we can work on certain sections slowly." If someone wants to learn something, I think you should incorporate it into your teaching. Or otherwise, the putting the music in front of them would scare them off if you really think its far to far off.

my friend, whos the same grade as me (6) often learns grade 7 & 8 pieces, and does very well with them! she may not play them as well as a grade 8 pianist but she can still play them up to speed, good dynamics etc & in a concert recently she played a gd 8 duet, which was very impressive! It doesn't stop her learning grade 6 repetoire & scales, it just means she gets some extra experience in trickier pieces, and can push herself as much as she wants. Just give them the music, you may be suprised at how far they can get with it

I'm getting a bit worn down by one 10-year-old pupil who's desperate to play fast and impressively (he's very good at sport and is a champion in his field).

His playing is a little sloppy, and his intonation is a little dodgy at times, but when I pull him up on anything he gets quite annoyed and doesn't want to listen to anything I have to say. Perhaps I should just stop him, and play it the way it should be played and get him to copy me until he gets it right or better - words just don't seem to work for him.

He also has a minor problem with technique. It affects his tone, but he doesn't want to listen to any comment about that either.

I get the feeling he just wants to reach the goal but without getting the details right, so everything he plays could be that bit better. He moans if I suggest doing any studies, and just wants to play hard, fast pieces, one after the other.

What to do?

Violinia

QUOTE (Violinia @ May 30 2005, 05:01 PM)

I'm getting a bit worn down by one 10-year-old pupil who's desperate to play fast and impressively (he's very good at sport and is a champion in his field). His playing is a little sloppy, and his intonation is a little dodgy at times, but when I pull him up on anything he gets quite annoyed and doesn't want to listen to anything I have to say. Perhaps I should just stop him, and play it the way it should be played and get him to copy me until he gets it right or better - words just don't seem to work for him. He also has a minor problem with technique. It affects his tone, but he doesn't want to listen to any comment about that either. I get the feeling he just wants to reach the goal but without getting the details right, so everything he plays could be that bit better. He moans if I suggest doing any studies, and just wants to play hard, fast pieces, one after the other. What to do? Violinia

Violinia..

This is where the examination system can be so useful.

Give the advice, document it in the student's notebook and on the score.

The examiner will doubtlessly write in the report about a need for stronger control of tempo, greater discipline, stronger interpretation etc.

Keep the report at your fingertips and haul it out when you are making your point.

Competitive kids like high examination marks!

Oh and discuss the report with the parents as well.

You must build yourself into a situation where your advice is trusted

Violinia

I'm not a teacher, but icould this just be his age? I know when my daughter was younger every piece was played at top speed but now she is older!!! she is playing with more care and appreciation. Her piano teacher who was 78 when he first started teaching her, used to shrug his shoulders and just put it down to immaturity. Sometimes, in my daughters case, it was a desire to please, she was really keen to hear his comments at the end and so rushed through.

Don't know if this is the same with your student.

Frances

QUOTE (flute_gurl @ May 30 2005, 04:38 PM)

my friend, whos the same grade as me (6) often learns grade 7 & 8 pieces, and does very well with them! she may not play them as well as a grade 8 pianist but she can still play them up to speed, good dynamics etc & in a concert recently she played a gd 8 duet, which was very impressive! It doesn't stop her learning grade 6 repetoire & scales, it just means she gets some extra experience in trickier pieces, and can push herself as much as she wants.

I agree. We teachers get terribly hung up about selecting music at the 'correct level' for our pupils.

Within reason, pupils can often play more difficult music that that indicated by their current playing standard. They will need to play it more slowly and perhaps not as musically than more advanced students but can still get much from the exercise.

QUOTE

Just give them the music, you may be suprised at how far they can get with it

This is how I deal with high-ability pupils. I set them gradually more and more difficult challenges. They love it.

Just for fun I play music I like and sometimes that is music which is harder than my ability. But I still like playing it on my own with the freedom of it not being done in lessons.

i printed out all 36 pages of the liszt b minor piano sonata, just out of interest because im addicted to the piece. Obviously its well well above my standard (im grade 8) but just reading through it was helpful. The parts i got stuck on i just practised slowly, quickly, loud soft, etc many times....so even though its a piece well above what i can play, i still got something out of the technical side of it.

hope this helps someone, probably doesnt hehe

@ Violina
I used to have the same problem as the pupil you're talking about when I was younger, for me it was a sense of wanting to play it and I had always associated fast with good (boy's thing - probably to do with cars..but yeah). I jsut grew out of it. Plus if he's refusing to listen to what you are telling him, try giving him a recording of himself playing it fast, then play it at a slower tempo right afterwards and if there is a big difference in tone etc.....he will hear it (and hopefully respond to it). But apart from that it's jsut maturity i think, thecontrol to push back the urge to go full steam.

Violinia, Viohazard has the same tendency, I do think it has a lot to do with boys, though of course there's a little speed demon lurking in most girlish hearts too! No matter what the teacher says, kids think it's cool to be faster at doing things than everybody else.

As I'm only Mum, my words don't have the same weight that the teacher's comments do, but writing a numbered grade in the margin every time should shatter any illusions about fast=good. Probably nothing else is clear and simple enough for a boy to understand! When I protest at sloppy renditions at lightning speed, all Viohazard hears is "You're a rotten player" and not "You'd be fine if you slowed down".

When he was younger, he said he couldn't slow down because that was the speed that he heard it in his head...I think even now that's why his own sloppy playing doesn't bother him as much as it bothers me to listen to. I'm just hoping he grows up one of these days!

Thanks for all your comments and advice about the 10-year-old boy. I do think it's something to do with his age and the fact he's a boy.

George, as a matter of fact he's been working on the Grade 4 (he's never done a grade before, and was previously Suzuki-taught) pieces and scales, with view to doing the exam when he's ready. We looked at grade 3 but he was a bit sniffy about it and wanted to go straight onto Grade 4. He's doing OK, but as I said - there's some sloppiness and I want all that ironed out before we consider booking the exam date.

To be quite honest I'd much rather teach down to a grade than up, and I'm never going to allow myself to be talked into teaching up to a grade again. I'm teaching up to grade 4 with 5 pupils at the moment, and the pieces are all quite tricky. I've decided - with all of them - to slow down and give them lots of other repertoire too, giving them just one scale and aprpeggio to learn a week till they've got them all under their belt without really noticing them, and making sure the repertoire is all fun as well as helping them build up gradually to the standard they need to be at for grade 4.

The idea of recording the boy is a great one - thanks! - and I have actually just bought a minidisc player - just haven't used it yet. This minidisc has software for transferring files to CD, which is great - he'll be able to take the recordings home and listen to them in depth. Yep, this is definitely the way forward.

I also think the intense focus on sport in this boy's life is causing him to see music a bit too much like a sport - another skill to learn and be better than anybody else at - notwithstanding the mysterious fact that he seems content to be sloppy. He can't be sloppy with his sport otherwise he wouldn't be a champion, would he? It's weird...

Perhaps when he has recordings of himself he will compare them with the professional recordings (which he has), and become clearer about how much he needs to improve.

This is a boy who's not interested in playing slow pieces "because they're boring"...

Heigh-ho.

Violinia

QUOTE

To be quite honest I'd much rather teach down to a grade than up, and I'm never going to allow myself to be talked into teaching up to a grade again.

Violinia, there was rarely a truer word. We all learned the same way never to do it again.

I always play music that's too hard for me. In fact, I play it so much that it stops being too hard for me. I think that's why practice exists, and I think that's how people improve.

QUOTE (hgirl @ May 30 2005, 11:41 PM)

I always play music that's too hard for me. In fact, I play it so much that it stops being too hard for me. I think that's why practice exists, and I think that's how people improve.

Good for you, hgirl. I wish more of my pupils felt the same.

QUOTE (hgirl @ May 30 2005, 11:41 PM)

I always play music that's too hard for me. In fact, I play it so much that it stops being too hard for me. I think that's why practice exists, and I think that's how people improve.

Just to make sure we are not off track here..

It is one thing to play something challenging. Another to play something right out of your league.

As a 13 year old, I moved to boarding school where some ancient teacher tried music that was too hard by about 2-3 grades. It was pure bar by bar grind and so discouraging. It was liked playing out of my grade in a sports team.

The true artistic experience for me is constructing a piece that can be managed technically and musically. In singing of course this is crucial - you have to take care of all the building blocks or you will wreck your voice! I am more struck by the similarities with piano, than with the differences.

I think a combination of challenging pieces, plus pieces that are very manageable - that is a good way to go. That is unless you are in an incredible hurry.

QUOTE

As a 13 year old, I moved to boarding school where some ancient teacher tried music that was too hard by about 2-3 grades. It was pure bar by bar grind and so discouraging.

I can imagine, George. That isn't what hgirl is saying though. As I read her contribution, she is choosing to play more difficult pieces. There is a natural limitation on what she will choose as an impossible choice will be just that.

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 31 2005, 09:50 AM)

I can imagine, George. That isn't what hgirl is saying though. As I read her contribution, she is choosing to play more difficult pieces. There is a natural limitation on what she will choose as an impossible choice will be just that.

exactly

QUOTE (hgirl @ May 31 2005, 04:24 PM)

QUOTE (SteveHopwood @ May 31 2005, 09:50 AM) As I read her contribution, she is choosing to play more difficult pieces. There is a natural limitation on what she will choose as an impossible choice will be just that.  :D exactly

Have fun

I would probably have been your worst nightmare when learning then

I began lessons at 12, and although my teachers always kept me playing repertoire that was right for my technique and level, my "own" pieces that I played (which I must admit made me a very good sight-reader) are as follows:-

12 1/2 Rhapsody in Blue (the proper version)
13 last movement Moonlight Sonata
14 Most of Chopins Etudes

....and now, Rach's concerto no. 2, my teacher knows so as long as I practise what i'm meant to it's not a problem.

QUOTE (possom @ May 31 2005, 06:04 PM)

I would probably have been your worst nightmare when learning then I began lessons at 12, and although my teachers always kept me playing repertoire that was right for my technique and level, my "own" pieces that I played (which I must admit made me a very good sight-reader) are as follows:- 12 1/2 Rhapsody in Blue (the proper version) 13 last movement Moonlight Sonata 14 Most of Chopins Etudes ....and now, Rach's concerto no. 2, my teacher knows so as long as I practise what i'm meant to it's not a problem.

how on earth can any 12 year old (unless they were WA mozart!) be able to play the last movement of the moonlight sonata, or most of chopins etudes....it is one things playing something challenging, or perhaps part of a piece that you like, but that is totally out of your league.

However, i suppose its all good fun. Sorry to sound like a moaner

QUOTE

how on earth can any 12 year old (unless they were WA mozart!) be able to play the last movement of the moonlight sonata, or most of chopins etudes....

I did the same at possum's age. I murdered most of the great piano concertos - they were all available at our local library (I bet that doesn't happen often these days). I got loads out of it: technical development; my musical horizons expanded; I appreciated my favourite concertos much more; I had a bucket-load of fun.

QUOTE

it is one things playing something challenging, or perhaps part of a piece that you like, but that is totally out of your league.

Possum is not having these pieces inflicted on her (sorry if you are a 'him' possum, I am guessing) by a cruel teacher trying to make her play at a level far beyond her 'proper' level. I bet she is having a great time, too.

Well, I supose trying to play pieces beyond you level is better than the situation I'm in, where anything at the level I'm supossed to be at, I take one look, squeal and run a mile.
(I have an aversion to anything with tricky rythms)

So I'm now stuck in the situation where I rarely play anything beyound the grade 5/6 level pieces I can learn quite quickly. Partly because I don't practise so diligently as I used to, and partly because music shops don't seem to stock anything more interesting!

Thank-you Steve!!! I'm actually 31 now (yes female ) and studying for my LTCL but have never lost the excitement of trying new pieces especially difficult ones, and yes, when I was doing my grades that's where I acquired all of my technique. There is so much wonderful music out there and I have to try and play it!!! I am learning Beethoven's Appassionata after my exam which was one of my favourite sight-reading efforts so am really looking forward to learning it properly

You're teaching and have only been playing yourself for three years; I think that's more adventurous than wanting to play Chopin Preludes after 1 year!

There's nothing wrong, in my mind, with playing pieces that are 'too hard' as long as one plays pieces at the right level as well. If someone only plays pieces that are far too difficult then they won't really progress very well: most of the time the way of learning a piece that's too difficult is very different to the way one would approach a piece that's at the right level; it usually involves rote learning resulting in bad reading (I admire anyone who can sit there attempting to sightread it whilst it sounds nothing like it's supposed to, but I don't usually last more than two pages of that without getting bored and deciding memorising would be the best way forward in that situation!).

Before I had lessons, I used to play pieces around grade 6 standard (not because I knew the standard, they're just the ones that I happened to like at the time), I played them by memorising them by rote. If I got out an easy piano version of a piece it wouldn't be any easier for me to play even though it would have been a number of 'grades lower': it was just a different finger pattern to memorise, neither is harder than the other when it resorts to that (and even playing fast isn't too hard once you've memorised it and unevenness doesn't really matter because the ear isn't well developed enough to notice ). When I started playing the piano I started, not from grade 6, not from grade 3 but right at the beginning from grade 1. The important thing was not that I could play those pieces but how I was learning them: the next piece wouldn't be any easier than the previous one and I wouldn't improve as a pianist, just learn a few different finger programmings. To a certain extent I could also add expression by copying a CD, or someone else playing it, I wasn't too bad at it, but I can tell that I wasn't as good as I am now (and I can tell now that I still have a lot to learn!).

I have now got back up to playing pieces of grade 6 standard, four years later, and I am playing them not by rote learning but by reading them (obviously I do practice them though!). My sightreading is now a lot better and easier pieces are definitely easier to learn now than harder ones, which is a relief. As I work on the same idea as Violinia, working down to a grade, I will probably be taking grade 5 in December. It's true I could have trained my hands to do 3 grade 8 pieces a few years ago and taken grade 8 with pointers from my teacher but the point is that now, I would be worse at playing the piano and completely unable to sightread simple pieces: it would be a pointless exercise. I'm always wary of people that rush through grades quickly for this reason, I suspect it's more likely that they're relying too heavily on their teacher and just learning the required exam pieces by rote and nothing else, they're worse pianists than they would be if they'd stayed four grades behind, or whatever, and learnt pieces of the appropriate standard. So yes learn a hard piece/pieces if you want to but don't use that to mask your level or fool yourself that you're better than you are, and forget about learning pieces at the right level. I think a quick study is a good test of whether or not a person has really reached a certain level (obviously the quick study is at a lower level than the level reached).

Back to the topic:
I agree if my student has extra time to try for something harder, but I don't agree if they play something if it is too hard for them, like that they can't even get the notes right!! It seemed wonderful and position to them for playing difficult piece (I know this considering I was once a student who was very very ambitious like them). But now I regret, if I have stuck to the work that my teacher taught me, I would have been processing even faster, so therefore I warned my students that if yhey want to play difficult things, they'll have to finish the easy one first.

To noodle: I hope you're not picking on me and saying that I'm a show-off. I hate people who are shows off and therefore I certainly do not want to be one, that's the main reason that I don't put my achievements as the signature! And yes, I 'm a new teacher who only have 2 students after my g8 piano exam. I hate to admit it but actually I'm talent on the piano ( I swear I only say the truth because my violin skill is not comparable to my piano skill, I sruggle to do violin exams but I fly through piano exams.) Please do not say that I'm showing off again because I AM NOT!!

So are you saying that now you teach you are not now yourself a student any more?

*tries to stiffle hysterical giggles but fails*

hahahahaha

The modesty

i thought you said you didn't want to show off?

what he says and what he does are 2 very different things

clearly...


I saw something on tv a while ago, saying that the qualities people hate in others are actually the qualities they hate in themselves. I don't think its true about everything, but it seems to be pretty accurate here....

True, you don't put your achievements in your signature - you devote whole threads to them.....

I've just been browsing this thread and am glad to have stumbled upon this - very insightful - thanks

Fine then, if you want, I can put all my achievements on the signature and stop starting threads on them.

Does that mean you re-took G7 piano, have got your results back and got exactly the same mark?

(sorry read your post in the piano forum, and it seems you did get 135 exactly again)

Yes YCA Chan (pianist_1210) there can be no question of doubt - you are a natural! Superbly gifted and a genius!

And I can see exactly what your problem was. Why accept a mark like 135 for Grade VII when any reasonable examiner would have awarded at least 136 or maybe even more? But I guess in the end you just had to cut your losses, and move on to Grade VIII anyway! Time waits for noone.

On a more serious note, do you feel well equipped to teach the slow or even average beginner? What comes to you naturally may well be very hard to build from the ground up in a student who brings no natural gifts to the lesson. I don't really know what to suggest.

He's already got Grade 8 with distinction (135 marks). Perhaps he is considering taking a 2nd attempt for Grade 8 if not a 3rd attempt at Grade 7.

Yes I did.....

NO WAY!!
I guess I'm sick of piano exams now, I'll just stick with my violin exam from now on.

I guess I too would be suffering from severe exam indigestion if I had crammed 5 piano exams into 3 years of learning - especially if 4 of the exams were at an advanced level and only in years 2 and 3 of my learning.

I am surprised to read that you are switching back to violin exams. If you persevered with piano and continued the progress you have achieved for another 3 years - well, wow - you could soon be a touring concert pianist and recording artist. Have you considered this option?

With a results history like yours, were you ever offered a scholoarship to the Royal Academy or similar? Have you considered going into major piano competitions - the prizes can be substantial. Personally, I wonder that you would find the time to teach even a couple of pupils when you could be continuing such exponential artistic growth yourself.

I would definitely encourage you to keep working at the piano - we do not have many that can point to a record like yours.

Is your NCEA the NZ one?