I was wondering if vibrato is done with wrist or fingers or arms? How much wrist movement or finger movement is needed and for which kind of music? I know it should be fast, but I have only managed to get a feeble tone with it. Does the bowing arm do anything different from normal when the left hand is doing vibrato? Maybe more pressure?

If I remember rightly, my teacher said that "for violin and viola players, vibrato comes from the wrist, but for cello and bass players, it comes from the whole arm."

My teacher is trying to get me to use more "wrist vibrato" than "finger vibrato".

Probably it's because you get more tensed up if you do finger. I can't see anyone holding out a finger vibrato for long periods of time. Makes sense, wrist movement.

Yes, the wrist vibrato is much more sustainable over a long period of time. I actually prefer it.

For violin and viola there is arm, wrist and finger vibrato. If you are really good you can perfect all three and use each according to the context of the music. Finger is usually used in the higher positions when there is less flexibility available in the arm or wrist.

Jane

Thanks folks that was a great help. Probably the playing of scales in thirds and sixths with wrist staccato on the piano helps you in learning wrist vibrato here. Makes the wrist loosen up a bit more, don't you think?

Vibrato on the violin incorporating the entire lower arm (elbow, wrist and hand) demands complete freedom of movement at the left shoulder and hence none of that nasty "frying pan grip" of the hand on the violin neck

Mastering all three forms will enable you to add more variation in tone colouring to your playing.

just be very careful you don't enjoy playing vibrato too muh and over colour each note then you have a real problem when you dont want to use it! I Guess my point is that it's merely a ornament and not essential to some places.

Vibrato would be better described as an 'expressive technique'. It is not really an ornament. Musical experience and your own emotive feelings in whatever you are playing should be the guiding factor in the use of vibrato.

Yes I believe so too. Relax... I'm not quite so enthusiastic as I would have been if I had learnt the violin as a kid... LoL... My teachers had a LOT to say about over-use of anything on the piano... I think it adds a nice touch to long notes... takes the long drone to a more musical level.

I am curious. We just got back from a violin competition at RCM for kiddies where the adjudicator advised the kids to use different vibrato - you need to "VARY your vibrato" to get more tone colours just like an artist would on his pallette. Pardon?

WHAT does she mean? Just VARY the AMOUNT of vibrato in certain places according to the mood(s) of the piece in different places? Or VARY the TYPE of vibrato?

If it's the latter, then it's a bit confusing - surely you use all 3 of your arm AND wrist AND fingers to "make" ONE vibrato. Is there a REAL division/difference btw the 3?

In choral singing, I recall there is only one kind of voice vibrato! Not so complicated!!!

This is the kind of blanket comment that tells you nothing, especially when it refers to a group of pupils.

Perhaps she meant vary the timing (more a matter of taste about when you start the vibrato on a held note) or the depth, instead of the same amount on every note or not even doing it if the note is strident or loud.

I agree, it's impossible to do vibrato without using all 3 to some degree but perhaps the attempt to segregate these "types" (arm wrist and finger) comes from what muscles that impell the action if you see what I mean. I'd be only too happy for someone to explain it.

I can't see how you do a "finger" vibrato without moving the wrist (unless they mean that the traction comes from muscles that control the fingers rather than the wrist). Equally, how do you do a wrist vibrato without your fingertips undulating to and fro on the board? With an arm vibrato the impulse comes from the arm (I can see that) but you still have to support with the left thumb under the neck which means the wrist and fingers move-the wrist only slightly and in a different way-and I haven't worked out what movement is expected of the thumb yet!

The adjudicator should have been a little clearer on their precise meaning.

They were probably referrring not only to the amount of vibrato, but the speed and width with which is was delivered. Using the exact same vibrato all the time becomes just as boring for the listener as using no vibrato at all.

The speed of the vibrato is fairly easily changed, providing you don't have tension in the left hand or arm, but the width of the vibrato ie. the amount of actual modulation either side of the note you are playing, needs considerable control. This comes only with experience and development of suffcient muscular strength in the fingers and hand. Emotional response to the music is also a guiding factor, but something that is usually lacking in young children's playing.

The latter is often a contributory factor to why some quite young children (although technically competent) fail G7 or G8 practical. They do not possess the emotional maturity to convey the music. Similarly, this is why the ABRSM have a lower age limit on their diplomas.

Put simply, you can't.



The thumb, or in fact any other part of the hand, should not be supporting the violin. The violin should be supported naturally between the shoulder and the lower jaw - through proper adjustment and fitting of the shoulder and chin rest. The thumb is then free to move in sympathy with the rest of the arm hand and fingers. Especially important for smooth judder-free shifting.

If at first you find this difficult, play both an ascending and descending two octave scale of G major, using the first finger only, ie. sliding it up the finger board from A through to B and then C, followed by open D then first finger on E, slide up to F#, and so on. Keep your thumb completely away from the neck of the instrument. Providing the shoulder rest is adjusted properly the violin will stay in the correct position without the need to be supported by any part of your hand. Now play the scale normally again, this time with the thumb RESTING LIGHTLY against the side of the violin neck. Next, add some vibrato to each note. See, hear, and feel the difference it makes........

Thank you, AmandaL. Seems I have not been doing things properly, then, something my teacher hasn't spotted. I don't exactly clamp the violin under my jaw but I definitely use a pinch of the thumb (best way I can describe it) to stop the notes, again not exactly hard. I've avoided gripping the neck at least.

When I read your post I tried the exercise. The instrument sags enough that I'm afraid of dropping it, unless I really do clamp it and that's painful! All this means either the chinrest is inappropriate, is badly positioned or I'm just not holding it properly.

Well.........I don't live so far from a specialist violin shop. Instead of contacting my teacher this time I'll visit them. Maybe they can spot what's wrong. Perhaps a shoulder rest is called for. We shall see. Thanks again.
P

Well.........I don't live so far from a specialist violin shop. Instead of contacting my teacher this time I'll visit them. Maybe they can spot what's wrong. Perhaps a shoulder rest is called for. We shall see. Thanks again.
P

[/quote]

Goodness gracious! Thisisus, do you mean you've been playing all this time without a shoulder rest? Poor you. I've seen some kids doing it in an orchestra. It was terrible - they were either pressing (not resting) hard on the chin rest or holding on to the neck of their violins for dear life! They were so worried their violins will fall but when queried, they all gave the same answer - the shoulder rest is too uncomfortable! So make sure you get a comfortable one!

I'm very much a beginner, have just tried to do vibrato - how on earth do you do it - I found it impossible to do - bow arm keep stopping tried to move my wrist
- not a hope, just a horrible nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

A very unhappy Paul at the moment

[quote=LIVERSIDGE,Jun 27 2005, 11:53 AM]
I'm very much a beginner, have just tried to do vibrato - how on earth do you do it - I found it impossible to do - bow arm keep stopping tried to move my wrist
- not a hope, just a horrible nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

A very unhappy Paul at the moment


Firstly i wouldn't worry too much about it yet as you don't actually need vibrato until grade 5 but if you want to try there's no harm in that. I've recently started vibrato and have found it's one of those things where if you think about it too much it doesn't happen. If you don't think about it and keep your hand and arm relaxed it kind of just comes. Try it with the second finger, it's much easier.

Have fun!

Seems like there's lots of you out there with a multitude of tension problems, chin/shoulder rest problems and bugs in your vibrato etc.

If any of you live in the south east/home counties/London area or don't mind travelling to here, I'd be happy to offer a couple of informal lessons/clinics to help you sort things out. If you want to come along as a group of two or three that's fine, it often helps to watch and learn from each other as well.

If you're interested, and that goes for anyone reading this site or posting, either PM me

I have a friend who plays violin pretty well, she did grade 8 got distinction some years ago... however I have noticed recently that she basically only uses finger vibrato - her wrist actually moves hardly at all or not at all... I can't really work out how she does it, and it looks everso uncomfortable. Though she'd be the first to admit she's a competant player but no expert.

Amanda - that's very helpful - I am going to try that exercise. I believe I'm not TOO bad when it comes to gripping the violin, but I am certain that gripping it less would help a good deal!

Interestingly, one of my friend's dad's at school was a violin and viola teacher - and professional violist in the WNO orchestra - and always played without a shoulder rest, and taught his students to as well. They were all very good - many of them grade 8 distinction, getting into the highest county music groups, etc. I could never understand how one could shift or do vibrato without a shoulder rest - I would really struggle - but Harry (his son, and grade 8 distinction on the violin before he even arrived at secondary school...!) said that he couldn't imagine playing WITH one, and that the lack of tension in his left arm from the shoulder was what enabled him to shift/vibrate appropriately. I think they all played with the instrument resting on the left thumb, and sort of balanced on the shoulder. I can't imagine being able to play that way - I would be terrified of dropping the thing! - but can bear witness that a good few excellent violinists at my school managed very well, and Harry's older bro is now a professional, well, last I heard... so, just goes to show that we are all different I suppose!

If I lived anywhere close to you...! I would definitely take up that offer. Oh well!

PAGANINNI, THE BEST MOST FOLKS WOULD THINK, NEVER USED A SHOULDER REST because he had a cavity in the right place! WE WERE TOLD MOST PEOPLE DO UNLESS THEY HAVE SHORT NECKS OR A SORT OF CAVITY IN THE RIGHT PLACE TO HELP HOLD THE VIOLIN. YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER HOLD THE VIOLIN BY GRIPPING IT WITH ANY PART OF YOUR HAND! YOUR LEFT HAND IS MEANT TO BE ENTIRELY FREE TO PLAY, NOT HOLD YOUR VIOLIN.

Paganini also had very large hands. He could play intervals of 12ths with ease, so shifting was less of an issue for him anyway.

The other reason both chin and shoulder rests are now widely used is the difficulty of the music. Up until about the mid-19th century, shifting beyound fourth or fifith position was still relatively rare. In fact, Beethoven's violin concerto was branded unplayable because of the use of such high positions. The necks of violins were in the transitionary stage ie. somewhere between Baroque and modern angle, although fingerboards were already beginning to lengthen.

In order to completely free the movement of the hand and arm, and allow you to cross up and over the body of the instrument with your entire hand, there became the greater need to somehow 'fix' the violin into the postion it had once been supported in. Most people have a neck long enough to require a shoulder rest and it is unwise not to use one if you intend on playing in high positions - not only for the security of the instrument, but also the tension that will otherwise form in the shoulders and back muscles.

That's certainly the way I play and was taught to play, however, like I said, I do know a fair few very accomplished violinists and violists who play entirely without a shoulder rest and rest the instrument on the left thumb. I really don't understand how anyone can play like that, and I know that I can't (I tried from curiosity!) but certainly it can be done - and the people I know were mostly with that one teacher but all different shapes and sizes physically, plus one older guy who makes violins and violas who said he tried it because someone had suggested it would help relieve stress in his shoulder and back - as it turned out, it didn't, but he can now play as well without one as he did with.

I make no claims to expertise, but I do find it everso interesting that opinions are so polarised! And I know people on both sides of the shoulder-rest issue who are mediocre and very good, there is no correlation in my experience between being very good and using or not using a shoulder rest, and even the experts are divided!

Someone told me once that very few high level soloists use shoulder rests - I don't know how true that is though. Same guy who I mentioned above as teaching himself how to go without. He said that Nigel Kennedy used one, but few others... as I say, I've no idea if he was right... it's interesting to speculate whether they got to that level despite playing without that support, or if they naturally have the right shaped bod to support a violin naturally, and maybe that's why they got so good...

SORRY, I forgot to say that I'm not a violinist! Merely quoting MENUHIN!

lol - well I wouldn't argue with him... but I know those who would!

Menuhin has been dead for a number of years, so just what era of soloists would he have been referring to? Depends when he first made the quote I guess.

Anne-Sophie Mutter is the only top level soloist I know who doesn't use a shoulder rest. Maxim Vengerov uses a shoulder rest and so does Vadim Repin - and they are both from the Russian school of playing.

Perhaps it is the younger generation of players who tend to favour the freedom shoulder rests offer them, while the older generation of soloists just learned to manage without one.

Can't think of any orchestral players I've worked with who don't use a shoulder rest. (For anyone who knows the violin parts in Mahler 6 or Bruckner 8, they're long enough and tough enough works with a shoulder rest, imagine trying to get through it without one ).

Amanda,
Menuhin DOES use the shoulder rest. I think you accidentally read the opposite of what I wrote. Menuhin wrote that the hands must be totally free to play and not hold the violin in any way! Hence his NEED of a shoulder rest.

I'm about to consult whether I should get a shoulder rest. I have a small cushion thing about 4" X 8" with a little loop at each end that hooks on and this seems ok. I think my chin rest might not be right though. Needs to be a little higher and closer to or across the tail piece.

We shall see.

Peggy

Amanda: the person who claimed about top soloists NOT using shoulder rests was not Menuhin but a friend of mine! Menuhin said that shoulder rests were necessary!

I haven't seen enough top level soloists actually play to know whether they used rests or not... I personally find it very very hard to even try and play without one, though I can manage with a small cushion or pad IF that's all that is available.

Ok, I took it that Menuhin was the person who'd quoted few soloists use a shoulder rest.

I've seen lots of top soloists and most use a shoulder rest. Anne-Sophie doesn't but she does use an incredibly high chin rest to compensate for the gap. Itzhak Perlman doesn't appear to, but he has a pad stuffed in the shoulder of his jacket (you can see him adjust it from time to time), and that counts as a shoulder rest to me, it's something that raises the violin on the shoulder and fills that gap.

Personally I would not play without one, but each to their own, and what suits one person etc....

[quote=violinist,Jun 27 2005, 12:31 PM]
[quote=LIVERSIDGE,Jun 27 2005, 11:53 AM]
I'm very much a beginner, have just tried to do vibrato - how on earth do you do it - I found it impossible to do - bow arm keep stopping tried to move my wrist
- not a hope, just a horrible nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

A very unhappy Paul at the moment


Firstly i wouldn't worry too much about it yet as you don't actually need vibrato until grade 5 but if you want to try there's no harm in that. I've recently started vibrato and have found it's one of those things where if you think about it too much it doesn't happen. If you don't think about it and keep your hand and arm relaxed it kind of just comes. Try it with the second finger, it's much easier.

Have fun!

[/quote]

Voilinist is right, Paul. You don't need VIBRATO till grade 5. My girl was taught vib just for the fun of it, I guess, after grade 2 level and after she has learnt some basic stuff first. So be patient. It will come.

Perhaps you can ask your teacher once you have reached grade 3? The vibrato exercise looks really fun and makes us giggle when I peeped in to look at it. It looks JUST like washing a window in a circular fashion to loosen the arms and wrists and then shaking everything(!) including her fingers all over!

You need to be very mindful when learning vibrato. I seems to me that you are iconfused about where the technique should be coming from. If you are a violin player it comes from the wrist. You must be very careful when learning this tenique, because it is very easy to create bad habits, believe me i know. I suggest consulting a teacher on this, and if you don't have one, as i said before be very careful. If you are holding you wrist to tight, you could develop a diease know as carpulls tunnel, its a diease, or more of a permanent wrist damage, that makes playing very painful, and sometimes impossible, depending on the severity of it. i don't mean to scare you by saying this i am only tryingt to inform. If oyu have any further questions, i'll try my best to answer them. hope this helps, and keep trying, you'll get it. just keep trying and have faith. ^-^

I remember it took me a while to develop the vibrato I have now... it took a lot of time and effort.