Hello everyone!

I am 16 years old and my name is Leia! I don't know if I am posting this right because I am new to these forums, so please forgive me if I have posted in the wrong place!

I'll be doing my DIPAbrsm in mid-July. I am playing this complete sonata, and while I can play through all the notes properly, I am having problems getting the third movement up to speed! Unfortunately, I have a wrist problem from overpractising which hinders me from sitting for hours at a time on the piano or playing too fast too often. Luckily, only 3 of my pieces are fast, and 2 of them aren't very challenging (Prelude no. 5 in D by Bach and Gershwin's 3rd prelude), so this is the only one that I am worried about at this point. Does anyone have any practise tips that won't hurt my wrist too much? Currently I am playing this movement often - around 25 times a day (not at one time though!) - but slow and at moderate tempos.

Thanks to anyone who responds!

Hi Leia

Playing the piano is not supposed to hurt. It is okay to try to play on a little when muscles start to get tired, to develop stamina, but you must stop practising the piece\passage the second you feel even a tiny twinge of actual pain.

Pain is our bodies' way of telling us there is something wrong. Athletes can sometimes gain from working through it; pianists will never gain anything but injury.

Pianists do not injure ourselves playing properly, only if we are doing something wrong. You may be sitting badly, perhaps, or playing with too much tension. Injuries derived from other activities can cause pain when we play the piano. My back aches when I play the piano, for instance, if I slouch in front of my computer.

My email address is If you get your parents to take digital photos of you playing some of your most difficult passagework up to speed and email them to me, I will have a look at them and see if I can detect a problem. Even better would be a minute or so video of you playing, if they have a digital camcorder.

If you take me up on this Leia, please do it with your parents. I know that at 16 you can look after yourself, but this way both you and they will know I am not someone nasty with horrible things on his mind . You can also visit My Website with them to establish my professional status.

Which sonata are you playing, Leia? You say Op 14 no 2, but this is in F. There is a C minor in the op 10 set and the 'Moonlight' (C# minor) is in the op 27 set. Clear that up and I will try to offer some practise tips.

And remember, playing the piano is not supposed to hurt.

Steve

Hi Steve!

Thank you for your prompt reply. I've been told that I have excellent posture, but it may be bad finger position that caused the initial pain. When I first started getting pain, I was playing this sonata repeatedly for 3 hours at a time . My wrists aren't very strong in the first place (I have started wrist strengthening exercises, though, recommended by my piano teacher) and now I only get slight pains if I practise too long at a stretch. I do stop immediately as soon as the pain starts, and I take a break! I don't want it to get any worse.

I'm sorry about writing the wrong Opus number for my sonata; you are completely right, it is number 27. I am having difficulty with the third movement. It is coming along, but slowly, and I don't feel fully confident playing it up to speed. Do you have any tips for playing this movement?

Thank you so much again for all of your help! I will send you photos if/when I get my parents' consent!

Hi Leia

Beast of a movement, the 3rd

Do you practise the semiquaver passages using different rhythms?

Just post a 'yes' of 'no'. If 'no' I will post a description of what I mean and why it works.

Steve

Yes, I have in the past, but I don't do this regularly. Is it something I should be doing daily?

Hi Leia

Some tips from the Steve School of Surviving Ridiculously Difficult Pieces:

Messing around with the rhythm
This is ever so useful when practising passagework you already know very well; it is not a learn-the-notes strategy. All ned to be done fairly slowly. All of them lead to distorted LH rhythm - this doesn't matter.

1) Dotted semiquaver-demi semi rhythm.
2) Turn each group of 4 semis into to 2 semis and 2 quavers - di-di dum dum.
3) Swap them round - dum dum di-di.
4) Quaver and triplet of semis - dum di-dl-ly.
5) Swap them round - di-dl-ly dum.
6) As written, but slowly.

This works for two reasons:
1) your brain reprocesses the information in a new way, which helps it to learn the patterns and signals it has to send to your fingers.
2) imagine you play each rhythm 3 times (5 is ideal but you might get bored) so you will have played the passage 18 times. Imagine trying to play it slowly 18 times - you would be slashing your wrists by the time you got to 5!

If you cannot make sense of my rhythms, Leia, get your parents to email me at home and I will send them an audio file of the first line of the movement played in the different rhythms.

Bangy practise
This involves playing slowly but with an exaggerated finger action. It is good for articulation and building finger strength. You play as loudly as your fingers will allow you. Just bear in mind that it has to be finger action; don't allow your arm to come into getting a louder sound or you will negate the point of the exercise. Make sure your wrist remains relaxed.

Remember; all the sound needs to come from your fingers.

Really slow practise section by section
You need to do this every day.

Divide the movement into sections eg bars 1 to start of 9; 9 - 14 and so on.

Play each section really slowly. You need fierce concentration here because your aim is total accuracy. All you are doing is aiming for technical accuracy. Mistakes render this exercise a waste of time, so don't make them.

After you have been through the movement like this, play it through up to speed. You will notice an instant improvement in your control.

Relaxed practise
You give yourself permission to make mistakes and think only about the musical aspects of expressing the piece. You will be surprised by how fewer mistakes you make.

_________________________________________________________________

Actually, this giving-yourself-permission-to-make-mistakes business is helpful. The most memorable live performances I have ever heard, by Kissin (recently) and Curzon (30 years ago) had fistfulls of wrong notes. Nobody in the audience cared because the playing was musically fantastic. The players generated levels of excitement and passion that would have been impossible if they were concerned for accuracy.

Let me know if I can be any more help, Leia

Steve

For what it's worth, I would strongly endorse everything Steve has wisely suggested - and would additionally question the wisdom of playing this ( or any other piece) 25 times a day!! Have you heard the adage 'Think 10 times and play once'? (Or something) Once you know what you're doing, I find it's beneficial to run through the music away from the keyboard.

My 2nd Useful Tip would be to shut the lid and practise on that ( Also, surprise, an idea of Bill Westney. But I'd been using it before I read his wonderful book) You can exaggerate the movements - and no possibility of 'wrong' notes.

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by 'wrist strengthening' exercises . Surely this would lead to tension? I spend most of my time getting my students to 'soften' their wrists. And obviously any pain whatsoever is a red warning sign, and should be taken seriously.

Good Luck!

Firstly, THANK YOU so much to steve and Helen for your advice! I really, sincerely appreciate it!

Steve: I have tried everything you have mentioned, but I have never really used any of them as devices to strengthen my technique. As soon as I finish writing this, I am going to print out your instructions and keep them by my piano!

The rhythm distortion is perfect for me at the moment, because I know the notes very well; it is just that I am having difficulty getting them up to speed. I understood all the rhythms you wrote out (though I was having a chuckle over the diddly dums ), so I will be trying it at the first opportunity I get!

When I mentioned the 25 times a day, I meant most of it is really slowly practise. And by no means do I do the 25 times all at once! I do it once or twice, then go on to other pieces or take a break, then come back and do it one or two more times, etc. Right now I am on summer vacation so I have plenty of practise time

I divided the movement up into 14 sections a few months ago. What I usually do is play through each phrase 3 times, then go back and play the whole section, but slightly faster than I had played the phrases. I will try your idea of very slow and accurate practise of each section.

Helen: I go through the music tons of times in my head, away from the keyboard, and find that extremely helpful! I have never tried shutting the lid and practising on that. I will do that as soon as I have gone through all of Steve's tips!

The wrist-strengthening exercises aren't done on the piano. They are done with very light weights as part of another exercise routine. My wrists being weak are what got them injured in the first place, so I am strengthening them up so that I don't hurt them again in the future. My doctor told me to learn some exercises to help strengthen them, and my piano teacher (who had a similar problem while learning this very movement!) showed me some exercises to do.

Thank you both again for your excellent suggestions!

I thought my didly dums might tickle you.

Let us all know how you get on, won't you Leia. Good luck.

Hi Steve, you mentioned in the section on bangy practice - "all the sound needs to come from your fingers". Is this really the case?

In passages such as the Moonlight and Chopin's First and Last etudes in Op 10 and 25 (C and C minor). Using the wrist can save energy, reduce the tension on the hand and can inject fresh energy into such passages. Using more finger movement for quieter sections can be counter-balanced by coming down with the wrist (in as 'natural' a manner as possible) and using gravity to kick start the runs.

I think that the wrist is one of the most under-used resources that pianists enjoy. Not only for fast passages but for proper voicing of chords, non-tiring octave playing and as a contrast to more finger-intensive work.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.

Dangermouse

HI Dangermouse

Yes, you are dead right about the wrist.

'Bangy practise' is a separate issue. The point is that it is pure fingerwork, done very slowly as an aid to finger articulation. It is a useful part of the process of mastering difficult passagework that I use often.

Steve

I had a wrist problem a few years back which has now gone. It turned out that the cause was not in fact my wrist at all but with tension in the muscles in my forearm. This meant my wrist couldn't move properly and the tendons within it were straining from the effort of trying. This caused my wrist pain.

I don't mean to question the wisdom of your piano teacher, but if I were you I would go and see a physiotherapist. When I had my problem I got all sorts of advice from friends and colleagues, but it was the trip to the physio that sorted me out by pointing out the tension in my arms. A couple of sessions and some forearm-stretching exercises mean that the problem went almost immediately and has never recurred (as I now watch out for forearm tension).

In summary: my wrist pain was caused elsewhere, and no amount of wrist-strengthening exercises would have fixed it.

I paid around £30 per session and consider this one of my better spending decisions!

Quick word on playing technique: make sure you're not playing "through" the keys, i.e. maintaining pressure after the note has sounded, as this causes tension in your arm and reduces the mobility and speed that you can achieve. This was pointed out to me regarding my technique in the past and it changed my playing for the better.

Hi SomePianist!

I asked my doctor whether it would be beneficial for me to see a physiotherapist, and he said no, that I should just rest my wrist. I was away for a couple of weeks in March (Malaysia for a class trip, and then Berlin for International Honor Band/Choir) and my wrist immediately got better. He said that just as long as I don't strain it I should be okay. It is usually alright now, because I know how far I can push myself without damage, and when I overpractise I rest for a day or so until it heals. Thanks for the advice, though - if it ever gets really bad again, I will try and arrange some sessions with a physiotherapist!

I haven't noticed myself playing "through" the keys, but sometimes I don't notice things unless the thought is in my head while I'm playing . I will try to be aware of this next time and see if I am doing that. Thanks for the advice again!

I just can't get this movement up to tempo!

There isn't a marked crochet tempo - it just says "presto agitato." But all of the recordings I have heard are incredibly fast. I have tried playing it that fast, and I can accomplish it, but without getting the notes PERFECT and without the musicality that I normally can apply. I am a perfectionist and a very expressive pianist, and I prefer to play a piece with (most of ) the notes right and with a LOT of expression, rather than crazily fast with robot-like expression and blurry notes.

I am still playing it quite fast, just not up to the speed I have heard it performed. Do you think the examiner will penalize me for playing it too slow? My piano teacher agrees that I should play it at my comfortable tempo and not try to make it faster, just maintain it and get it absolutely perfect at this speed. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Hi Leia

Different performers bring different characteristics to a piece. Nobdy expects you to play the movement at the speed of a Kissin at your stage in development. The examiners will not penalize you for a musical performance at a lower speen, within reason. My own performance speed for this movement is crotchet = 138, a tempo at which I can make sure all the semiquavers sound clearly. This actually sounds quicker than a much faster crotchet beat where the sound of the individual notes gets lost behind a solit beat.

When settling on a tempo, remember that the examiners will penalize you heavily if you choose one at which you lose technical control. Good advice is to work out your maximum speed - a speed at which you are taking risks - then relax that tempo for performance. For my taste, I always prefer listening to a more musical version at a lower speed.

Thinking about characteristics of different performances reminds me of the two recordings I had of Tchaikovsky's 2nd piano concerto, in G when I was learning it in the early 1980's. One was the Victoria Posnikova, the second was Gary Graffman. Graffman's outer movements went at rocket speeds; the playing was brilliant, exciting, passionate. Posnikova's was half the speed of Graffman's; her playing had grandeur, a felling of space, lyricism. She made the most of the dance that the last movement is supposed to be. I loved both recordings for their individual qualities.

Hope all this helps

Steve

Steve, thank you SO much I feel MUCH better now, and my speed is around 138 too! Sometimes I feel like I should be as good as the recording, but I have only been playing for 7 years, which isn't really that much! And I know that if a talented pianist like you plays this at crochet = 138, there's no reason why I can't do it too! Thank you once again for making me feel much better about this movement! I think I may actually be ready to give my exam!

Good luck Leia. Let us know if you pass. biggrin.gif

Well... I didn't do very well on my Grade 8. But then, I only practised about 20-30 minutes a day and I had to do the exam under terrible circumstances. Hopefully I will do better on this one... I really hope I pass! But if I don't, I will have learned some amazing pieces that I REALLY enjoy playing, so it's all good anyway. I can try again next time.