I am so glad that this post is generating so much discussion and interest especially in association with the Motivation topic on the Teachers forum (although I do feel that it is a bit arrogant of me to join in that discussion when it is meant for teachers!) This forum is eating into my practice time! We can't have that!! Have decided to use my lunch time at work instead!

Hi Cressida

[QUOTE]A bit scary to hear that it's better to avoid Mozart for the exam. This is something of a deja-vu experience ....

Yes, but examiners make allowances. If you like the piece go for it. Different composers suit different styles of playing.

[QUOTE]the exams are really just to test/challenge myself & passing them is a bonus. They also provide some direction in learning.[/QUOTE]


Absolutely what I think


[QUOTE]for some pupils, working for exams can often hold them back, to the extent that they feel that they don't know anything much at all (...as I feel ). [/QUOTE]

Yes, I sometimes feel like that because when I am working for the exam I spend such a long time on the pieces trying to get them refined and polished that I neglect to do the sightreading in a regular way. This coupled with the fact that I tend to have my pieces memorised quite quickly means that I have to force myself to look at the music and, as someone else has said somewhere when you are someone who plays from memory you should still practise and play by looking at the music (if you get me!) as this helps you with sightreading. So, yes, in that way only I do feel held back by exams but this is totally insignificant as I feel the benefits of doing the exams far out weigh this. For example, I could never do Performance Assessment as 1.) I would be just as nervous and 2.) I would need to come out of the assessment knowing that the pieces I had played were of, say, grade 6 standard, and that having played them I would need to know from the assessor the mark I would have got for for them had I played them in a grade 6 exam and I am not sure whether or not that's in the rules and if one could ask for that kind of feedback?

[QUOTE](Anybody read 'Piano Lessons' by Noah Adams? Lovely little book
about an adult beginner's experience)[/QUOTE]


No.... Sounds interesting Must read it.


Dear Gemini

What wonderful news about your grade 5!! See.. I told you you would pass LOL! Keep up the sightreading! Not surprised it is your weak area as you have been learning for so little time!


Dear Farley_Teacher

[QUOTE]I am incredibly impressed at an adult who takes one of the higher level grades. My own teacher is an examiner and she says she hardly sees ANY higher level exams in comparison with the grades 1s and 2s, and this is because it is VERY DIFFICULT to play piano at this level. So you should feel very proud of yourself.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Thanks for those kind words (he shines his halo) That's given me and other adults, I am sure, a real boost.

Seriously though, is it really true that she sees so few adults (I assume you mean adults?) taking the higher grades? That's interesting, but again I suppose it all boils down to commitment and time devoted to practice which not all adults have through no fault of their own, of course. Just a question of priorities. My practice time gets very late at night in the summer as I want to be in the garden in the evenings (my second obsession!)

Interesting your comments on the Mozart. Actually my son, who played the Bach, kept telling me that the Mozart was the hardest of all the list A pieces but could not quite articulate why. But, like Cressida, I do so want to play composers that I love and I did so like the Mozart Andante Amoroso. At least the examiner said that it was "a heartfelt performance" in spite of my many other errors and technical hitches! LOL! Yes, the end result was far from smooth. What do you think about pedal in this piece, as Cressida has asked elsewhere? To pedal or not to pedal?

I have indeed tried some Czerny studies and will do more. Good advice. Thanks. Actually my teacher has stopped giving me them, telling me that the pieces themselves give me adequate practice but she knows this is not really the case as the studies are so well thought out. Also they do wonders for my poor sightreading!

Just a reply to the view about performance assessment:
1) I thought I would be just as nervous as in an exam too, but I wasn't. Maybe the fact that you actually get to alk to the examiner about your motives for doing PA helps.

2) If you used PA to find out whether you are playing at a particular level or not then if you let the examiner know that then you will get that feedback.

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ May 12 2004, 11:01 AM)

This forum is eating into my practice time! We can't have that!! Have decided to use my lunch time at work instead! ........................................ I tend to have my pieces memorised quite quickly ..means that I have to force myself to look at the music ..

Hi Silver Pianist!

Since I joined last week, this forum (and the spin-off gems of info) is eating into my piano practice, work, household chores, and sleep time!! But what the heck...It's like meeting a bunch of new friends on the same wavelength without all that 'gettin to know you' malarkey. Well done for starting the 'adult beginners' thread! I see it has a HUGE number of views as well as replies.

On memorising... Yes. I'm just the same! Teacher is very impressed with my ability to memorise, but I can't say the same about sight-reading !! I hate looking at the notes of my pieces whilst playing, once I've memorised them- it puts me off the music.

...and thanks for your reply to my post on the Mozart piece and pedalling. An 'interesting' dilemma... Teacher always welcomes debate, but not sure how he'll react to this one

I used to be the same about memorising, once I knew a piece I just couldn't look at the music, but I'm slowly starting to find that that's changing and there are some pieces that I can only play whilst looking at the music. Ding Bach's Gavotte in G at the moment, and that's definately a 'reading' piece but Chopin Mazurka is definately a 'memory' piece. Quite strange.

The other thing about performance assessments is you can play pieces of different standards. This lets you put together a programme that is satisfying in itself with an easy warm up, main piece and a 'cool down' piece. Not everything has to be driven by the desire to play at higher and huigher standards.

Hi Cressida, Sbhoa and Stumac

This has really made me think again about the whole issue of memorising.

My piano teacher has told me many times that she firmly believes that there are 2 kinds of players: memorisers and sight readers. She belongs to the sightreader category and finds it really difficult to play from memory. But maybe it's simply because of the very fact that because she is a good sightreader she never felt the need to play from heart. She gets really frustrated with me when I will not look at the music in the early stages of learning a piece and when I make a note mistake. "Look at the music!" she cries and I say " But where am I?" and she says "Bar 5" and I go "Oh really, where is that!

On the other hand I do find it embarrassing when someone asks me to play what appears to be a simple piece of music i.e. carols at Xmas and I cannot play straight off from sight!

Yes, Stumac, I do find sometimes that there are some pieces where I do need to look at the music but I find that I am still only looking at the clef that is the more difficult which is usually the bass clef where there may be lots of difficult chords and where the topline is quite lyrical and easier to remember!! My teacher finds this amusing and says that I need to try and read vertically but my biggest problem with playing from sight is to do just that. But I am getting heaps better !

Going back to the Mozart, one of the resons why I did so badly in it was that it was not as polished as it should have been and I had not memorised it sufficiently which meant I had a few bleeps and blanks from which I soon recovered but they did affect the flow quite obviously. It was a long piece to memorise and the longest piece that I have ever played in an exam. Are you going to memorise this one Cressida?

Thanks for the views on performance assessment.

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ May 13 2004, 11:59 AM)

Going back to the Mozart, one of the resons why I did so badly in it was that it was not as polished as it should have been and I had not memorised it sufficiently which meant I had a few bleeps and blanks from which I soon recovered but they did affect the flow quite obviously. It was a long piece to memorise and the longest piece that I have ever played in an exam. Are you going to memorise this one Cressida?

Yes - I have done.

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ May 13 2004, 11:59 AM)

This has really made me think again about the whole issue of memorising.

Hi Silver Pianist

My piano teacher likes me to memorise pieces for performing, and once a piece is memorised makes me play it without any music in front of me, and the music stand down. This is quite scary as there is nothing to hide behind. I find I can memorise quite quickly and like you can not find my place in the music when I look up. I sometimes mark particular places in the music if I know I am going to look up at that point. With regards to memorised music though I am not convinced that my memory is that secure. I feel that in a pressurised situation such as performance my memory will let me down. I think this is because I am just memorising finger patterns and not the score. So for example if I was asked to play from bar 20 I wouldn't have a clue where that was. I think that for memorised music to be secure and to be able to retain that memory I need to be able to memorise the score. I have read that alot of musicians, when learning a piece from memory, study the score away from the instrument. I be interested to hear your opinion on this.

With regards to sight reading, i.e. being able to play "the christmas carol" I think this just takes time. My teacher has said that being able to sit down a play a piece of music staight off takes years and years so I think patience is required. However, that said, it is very difficult for non piano players to understand this. They seem to think that because you play the piano you should be able to play any piece on any ropey old piano straight off. They do not seem to realise the amount of hard work and effort that is required to play the piano.

QUOTE](Anybody read 'Piano Lessons' by Noah Adams? Lovely little book
about an adult beginner's experience)[/QUOTE]


Hi everyone. Having read about the book 'Piano Lessons' (see above) I whizzed into Amazon and bought a secondhand copy for 1p plus postage £2.75. It arrived today and I can't wait to read it. A very good English bargain eh I then went on to find John Suchet's fictional biography of Beethoven (three volumes) called The Last Master. Same price as before, but a huge saving on the full retail price. Anyone read them? I'm all set for my holiday reading

I have just had THE most frustrating time with my homework (transposition) all the lights have gone out in my brain - or is it "einfach" syndrome!! It was so perfectly clear when explained to me last Friday; which proves that one should do one's homework immediately after a lesson I guess, not twelve hours before!!!
Thank you Silver Pianist for your good wishes and for reminding me that your reassuring remarks worked for my exam. Please can you do similar in telling me that the 'penny will drop' soon on transposition homework?

I hope I can join in this wonderful thread as I'm an adult learning piano too ...

I'm definitely a sight-reader rather than a memoriser on my first instrument, flute, but for my Grade 5 piano exam last year I played two items from memory: the Haydn Sonata in G 1st mvt and the Lied by Levy. I had been trying the Haydn out from memory to avoid the page turn, and found it much easier that way. My teacher suggested I memorised Lied as well, because I played it much more musically when I wasn't note reading. I found this piece a struggle to learn, and was hitting wrong chords and forgetting intervals until just before the exam, but it went all right on the day.

The most interesting thing is, when I got these pieces out a few weeks ago, having not played them for a long time, I was able to play accurately both the pieces I had memorised from the music. My third Grade 5 piece, which I didn't memorise, the Bossa Nova, was much, much worse. It all goes to show the increased level of knowledge one gets of the notes from memorising. (By the way, like StuMac and Cressida, I couldn't play the pieces from the music while I was memorising them).

I'm taking Grade 7 this term, and haven't attempted to memorise my pieces. Hoever, I found that I nearly knew my List B piece, Sketch in D# minor by Gliere, from memory when I tried it out a few days ago. I think that that's because the key is so awful (double-sharps all over the place), that I've had to memorise it in order to read it if that makes sense

Hi,

I hope you don't mind me joining your thread, I started learning the piano when I was 18 so I just about qualify as an adult starter ! I was reading with interest your experiences of memorising pieces, I don't know if you're interested but Fiona and I had a discussion a while ago here in the viva piano forum on a similar topic (not right at the top, it was one of those topics that got changed to be something else...). Do you think it could be that people who learn as adults are more likely to learn by memorising than by sightreading because memorising is easier to start with for adults than sightreading?

I suspect whether someone becomes a memoriser or a sightreader depends on what they find easier when they begin (since humans have a habbit of practising what they're good at!) and they can progress faster that way.

If you want a 'cheating' mathematical way to do your transposition homework, work out where the first note needs to go by transposing it by the interval and then just move every other note the same (i.e. the first note went down two lines so move all the others down two lines (or spaces if they're in a space)) then the only notes you need to consider specifically are ones with accidentals in the original, still move them down two lines but think about what needs to go in front. Don't forget the new key signature though: just take the tonic of the key the piece is currently in and transpose that by the interval and that gives you the tonic of the new key. I don't know if that helps you or if it's the initial transposition you're struggling with, if you're comfortable with intervals just think of it as "move every note down a minor third" and that might help.

Dear Gemini

Cannot remember how I did transposition. Will look up the book I used and my formula over the weekend and let you know. Worth mastering as it is easy marks in the theory exam. But perhaps some of the teachers on the forum could lend you some of the tips they give to their students.

Dear Lucia and Cressida

Interesting. I am sure that I have read somewhere on the ABRSM site that few people in the higher grades play completely from memory.

Thanks for the reply on carols etc and sight reading. Yes, the people who usually ask me are non musicians. My own teacher has said the same as yours. Which brings us back to the topic of adult sights and expectations and the need to be realistic and patient on the speed of our learning abilities.. !

Cressida

Out of interest, how long has it taken you to memorise the Mozart?

There is something on transposing on the forum ... I remember seeing it.
Try a search.

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ May 14 2004, 11:06 AM)

I'm definitely a sight-reader rather than a memoriser on my first instrument, flute.

Hi andante_in_c

I'm exactly the same, I have never memorised a piece of flute music. It is much easier to play from the score with the flute as you don't have to look at your fingers. When I'm playing the piano I feel like I want to look at my hands a lot of the time, especially if it's a waltz with lots of movement in the left hand. It is not so bad if the hands don't move around so much. With Chopin's E minor prelude I found I read most of it from the score apart from the tricky section near the end which I had to memorise. I asked my teacher how is it that experienced players don't always have to look at their hands and she said that in time you learn the pattern of chords and get to know how where to put your hands.

I'm 22 and going to start learning only until I get my piano at end of this month.

Sad to say that I wanted to learn at 15 years old but my best friend (She's a grade 4 organ holder ) actually doesn’t want me to do that due to there's no future for that. This really saddens me for years and now I'm confident to say that I want to pursue knowledge in music... No one can stop me including my husband...

Like I say nothing is never too late unless you don't have the commitment to pursue.

hi,

I learnt how to play the piano at the age of 20 and after a few years or so, I gave up because of family commitment. Never had the chance to take any exams..

A few years later, when my boy was about 6, we started 'exploring' on the keyboard again, with me teaching him whatever I could remember and he was picking up so fast that I had to find him a better teacher.

Now my son is 11 and passed his grade 3 with a high merit (3 years back) and know what? I am learning from him.

A few things I notice about adult learners (speaking for myself), my aural is not as good, can't tell the difference between melodic and rhythmic changes and have stiff fingers too. On the other hand, I think I can play the pieces with more 'expression' than my son, perhaps due to maturity. I think we feel more for the music.

Haven't had the courage to take any exams, just learning and playing the piano for leisure and pleasure. It helps to gel with my boy as we talk about music. We can even play duet, how about that!

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ May 14 2004, 11:35 AM)

Cressida Out of interest, how long has it taken you to memorise the Mozart?

Hi Slver Pianist

It's difficult to remember when I could 'play' the Mozart without the notes in front of me. I think I could remember the right notes after about 2 months. As for joining them all up into a fluent piece... Well, it's now a year since I first opened the green grade 6 book to play it. I spent 2 hours on it tonight in my piano lesson, and although it's become much more 'joined up' , there are still lots of 'pimples' in it (teacher's expression...!). I also still mix up the E flat and B flat arpeggios sometimes.

Teacher said I played it tonight as though I'd got a gun to my back! I'd been practising the Mozart all week with an 'I'll show him what I can do' attitude and that's how I played it - showing little improvement really.

I do have 2 hour lessons - and it's only after about an hour that I can relax a bit into 'performing'.

I sooo love the lessons though, and the practice- and that's what it's all about really isn't it?

Dear Cressida

Gosh you sound so much like me!!

I get the bit between my teeth with some pieces and play and play them at home determined to show my teacher at the next lesson that I have improved - and with the same result as you -! Many a time with the Mozart she said to me that I was too anxious and too tense and that I should relax into the piece and enjoy playing it. Easier said than done when you are trying to get it technically right at the same time as keeping the legato, the pulse, the rise and fall of the dynamics and the pp in one hand and mf in the other etc, etc. It is a devil of a piece.

I started it 9 months before the exam because I swapped from the Teleman and therefore did not give it as much time as I should have done. My other two pieces were well over a year. But you sound as though you are now at the level in the Mozart as I was when I took the exam so you should be fine. LOL!!

With the benefit of hindsight I would say that you might at this stage, if you are not already, divide it into sections and go back to hands separately with the arpeggio bits making sure that you have memorised the left hand really well. I always found that the top of the third page down to the repeat of the main theme was tricky to keep smooth and to keep each note clean but miraculously this bit went OK in the exam. The bit that I stumbled over in the exam was the top of the 4th page when you have a marvellous combination of differing arpeggios in the left hand that is worth playing and playing separately over and over again until you really know it inside out. I stumbled, forgot one note and really knocked myself out of tempo and poise (not that there was much poise to begin with!!). But you might be doing this already.

All I would say is be patient with it and do not try to rush it.

Hi there! I am 45 years old and played the piano when I was young. I haven't played in about 20 years and have recently picked it up again. It is so different now. Seems to be much slower in learning something. I used to be pretty good when I was a kid. Won several competitions and such. Took the tests and always did fine. Although I would get violently sick every time I would have to perform. I went to the Cincinnatti Conservatory of Music to major in piano performance but dropped out because I didn't think that I wanted to spend THAT much of the time in my life being sick! So I have been living life without the piano and just decided about a month and a half ago that I wanted to pick it back up. So far, it has been great. I have a wonderful teacher who is a professor at the local university and also performs and he is great. I practice about 1-2 hours every evening and more that that on weekend days. All in all I'm glad I did it.

I'm glad to hear that other people take a long time to learn pieces. I've been working on Mozarts Fantasy in Dmin since the end os last september, and can now play most of the adagi and the andante sections fairly well, first part quite fluently. I'm really starting to enjoy playing it, but was starting to get a sinking feeling in my stomach as there's a whole aleghretto section that's 1 and a half pages long that I've hardly looked at. My teacher says not to worry as its the easuiest bit, but its doesn't look that straightforwad to me!! I recon it will take me a year to really learn this piece.

I actually try to stagger pieces now, as you can end up in a situation of starting three new pieces at once, which can be ab it overwhelming!!!

PS - given the niterest in this thread pehaps it should be promoted to a discussion forum in its own right???

QUOTE (chopinlover @ May 18 2004, 12:54 AM)

Hi there! I am 45 years old and played the piano when I was young. I haven't played in about 20 years and have recently picked it up again.

Hi Chopinlover welcome to the forum, its nice to have another adult pianist join us.

After 20 years have you lost a lot of your technique and had to take much of a backward step from where you left off, considering you played to quite a high standard?

Hi, Silver pianist

What an interesting discussion topic you have started!

I'm not an adult starter, as like chopinlover I played as a child, then gave up shortly after getting Grade 8 piano when I was 18. I've played recorders to a fairly high standard since then, but re-started piano at the age of 58 two and a half years ago, so I suffer from many of the problems that other older pianists do! It's very frustrating when the brain won't work as fast as it used to.

I am most impressed by all you memorisers. I've only recently started to memorise pieces, with a moderate degree of success, although I can't play anything right through.

I'm taking Grade 8 again on 28 May - I thought it would be a personal challenge to do it again. It was! It's taken so much longer this time - eighteen months from when I decided to give it a go and I'm feeling decidedly under-confident. My sight reading is awful - and I really have tried doing what people suggest by playing all sorts of things, both easy and more difficult, but it doesn't seem to improve. (I've especially done a lot in the last few weeks as I'm fed up with playing the pieces, which feel stale and I'm making mistakes where none existed before). I know all the rules for sight reading but they don't seem to work in practice! As for aural ..... I used to be really good at this (16 out of 18 last time), but I can't seem to do it at all now. Having said all that, I really do enjoy playing again (most of the time!).

With hindsight, I wish I'd gone back to Grade 6 and started from there, building up confidence more gradually and getting a wider repertoire on the way.

Well done all you adult starters who have done such impressive things.

Are you aware that there are some very good courses available for adults - both beginners and otherwise? I've been to quite a few at the Benslow Music Trust at Hitchin (www.benslow.org) and have never been disappointed - superb tutors and friendly fellow students. These are over weekends or longer as a rule and cater for all instruments.

I agree with Stu Mac that perhaps this thread should be a discussion forum in its own right.

First off, congratulations Gemini for your grade 5! You deserved to pass, never tell yourself otherwise, when even the examiner him/herself passed you! After this experience, you know what to expect and overcome the next time. Interestingly, I was reading through the "practicespot" website and it had tips on coping with performance and exam anxieties as well as coping with unwelcome surprises. Very helpful though in most instances you would need an obliging friend or family member on hand to help.

As regards the sight-reading vs mermorising business, for me it depends on the music. My teacher is a great sight-reader and so rarely plays from memory. I am not a good sight reader by any means (far from it!) but wouldn't be what you call a great memoriser either. I never tried to memorise in an exam, though I could memorise a few pieces anyway. I do recall memorising the Alla Turca (3rd mvt of the Mozart A major sonata) in Grade 6 and now for Grade 8 I can memorise the Chopin waltz.

Going from what I felt this time round for the Grade 8, I found I pretty much automatically memorised the Chopin without much work and only realised that the score was there was a "safety net" when my teacher asked if I tried memorising the pieces and I thus tried it without the score. On the contrary with the Bach (which I started at the same time as the Chopin) I found I did need the score, at least for some parts of it. I am eventually getting to learn it off, but a different way to the Chopin. With the Chopin I play it with my eyes open looking at the keys; while with the Bach, I can (and sometimes do) play it with my eyes closed, and peeking only when there is a leap. If I look at the keys the whole time I get confused and start to panic.

I think this is because of the different ways I learnt the pieces at the start. With the Bach, I always looked at the score when practising, and the hands moved to play the keys without me looking down at the keyboard. So when I play without the score, it is mainly muscle memory that gets the piece played. Hence I can play with my eyes closed and get confused if I look down. With the Chopin because it is constantly leaping about the keyboard, I learnt it by looking down at where I was going and thus learnt the actual keys as they were being played, hence I can play that more consistently without the score (since I learnt/polished it without the score) but I can't play it with my eyes closed.

But when "sight-reading" during practice though, i.e. with the Bach, as I became more familiar with the piece, it went from reading the note and applying it to the keyboard to actually just seeing whether the notes were moving up or down and by how much and the fingers knowing themselves where to go. It's more like an indication of what to do next rather than exactly what to play. At least for me. That way rather than having to sightread all the time, you just sense where the next note is.

I do think that even though you have memorised a piece, to every so often at least, play it with the score, because I found that even though I am very familiar with the two pieces (and the third piece is coming along) that you find little mistakes here and there you never noticed (or which cropped up subtly over time). I noticed certain things like dropping notes, dropping rests, ignoring semibreves to be held down as crotchets are playing etc as I got more familiar with the pieces and could focus on everything at once rather than just hitting the right notes. Or it might be mistakes that crop up once you become too familiar with a piece.

Regarding transposing, if you are allowed to used a new key signature, that is easy in that you figure out the new key signature (if it is transposing C major a minor 3rd down it is A major). Then just copy everything down a third and the only time you need to worry is if you get to an accidental. There you have to figure out what the orginal accidental translates to in the new key signature (it will always be an accidental, never nothing). What I hate is when you aren't allowed to use a key sig and so you have to think the whole way through! You still move everything down a 3rd (not a 2nd or a 4th even if e.g. G# is the same as an Ab. So for a minor third, you use Ab if the original note is Cb but G# if the original note is but you have to concentrate that each note is indeed a minor 3rd down. I hope I didn't confuse you more, but as someone had already said, copy everything down the major 2nd, minor 3rd or perfect 5th (I think that's all you need for G5) and then focus on the accidentals you need. Have you just started on this? Because it can be quite daunting and brain-taxing at first, but with practice (the ABRSM workbooks give you loads of that!) it should become easier.

Good luck!

QUOTE (Suepea @ May 18 2004, 09:41 PM)

I agree with Stu Mac that perhaps this thread should be a discussion forum in its own right.

I agree too.....

QUOTE (chopinlover @ May 18 2004, 12:54 AM)

Hi there! I am 45 years old and played the piano when I was young. I haven't played in about 20 years and have recently picked it up again. It is so different now. Seems to be much slower in learning something. I used to be pretty good when I was a kid. Won several competitions and such. Took the tests and always did fine. Although I would get violently sick every time I would have to perform. I went to the Cincinnatti Conservatory of Music to major in piano performance but dropped out because I didn't think that I wanted to spend THAT much of the time in my life being sick! So I have been living life without the piano and just decided about a month and a half ago that I wanted to pick it back up. So far, it has been great. I have a wonderful teacher who is a professor at the local university and also performs and he is great. I practice about 1-2 hours every evening and more that that on weekend days. All in all I'm glad I did it.

Hi Chopinlover!

Your post made me think.....

When I started playing 7 yrs ago (age 43), I used to wish that I had started as a child. (I really do believe that children benefit in so many ways from learning an instrument and having music in their lives). I then heard so many stories from adults who had achieved high grades and were accomplished players as children - and then stopped playing. Couldn't believe it!

Now I think I'm glad that I'm learning as an adult, despite the frustrations. It's a hugely important part of my life. Being able to play pieces and pass exams are great goals to have and achieve, but it's the process of learning to play that really gives me the buzz.

So pleased to hear that you've taken it up again!!

QUOTE (Suepea @ May 18 2004, 09:41 PM)

Are you aware that there are some very good courses available for adults - both beginners and otherwise?    I've been to quite a few at the Benslow Music Trust at Hitchin (www.benslow.org) and have never been disappointed - superb tutors and friendly fellow students.  These are over weekends or longer as a rule and cater for all instruments.

See also Castelfranc Piano Summer School

Some really interesting points, Chopinoff. I've just tried playing Handel's Fantasia in C, which I'm doing for my Grade 7 this term, from memory for the first time.

Firstly, I found, like with your Bach, that I had to look out of the window rather than down at my fingers. It's rather nice looking at a spring garden on a sunny day whilst playing.

Secondly, the bits that are still causing me problems are the bits I had trouble playing from memory. My conclusion: that they're causing me problems because I don't know them, and I don't know them because I haven't fully understood them.

Thirdly, I found that the accidentals I occasionally miss out when playing from music were easy to remember when playing from memory, because I was really listening to the scale progressions and the harmonies.

A valuable experience, all in all. I now have to decide whether to plan to play this from memory in the exam, or to stick with the music and use my insights to work on it further.

My teacher has always encouraged not looking down at the keyboard when playing ( I fail miserably with the Chopin!) and suggested playing with my eyes closed. Chopin himself also encouraged this, after you have learnt off the piece properly and thoroughly by heart. The reason behind this, either playing with eyes closed or in the complete dark is that with your sense of sight taken away, your hearing (and probably touch too) heightens. You are able then to hear every nuance of the music, every teeny tiny mistake/inaccuracy/hiccup you have, inadvertent alterations of speed, and you can focus on the music you are creating in full, rather than having the distraction of looking at something.

When I first tried the Bach with my eyes closed, it was pretty amazing the difference level of appreciation, understanding and feeling of the music I got. In Bach, the left hand has a beautiful melody of its own, the counterpoint is gorgeous, and I was able to pick it out a lot easier than with my eyes open (even though I had already concentrated on it then). Because the melodies seemed so much more pronounced, I was able to bring up or tone down the lines of melody as I heard/felt fit, something which I can do now even with my eyes open as I know what to do now. I think providing you are very familiar with the piece, doing it with your eyes closed is like if you were listening to someone else playing the piece and hearing everything that is going on.

I'd love to try it with the other two pieces, but with the Chopin I need to see where I am going, and the Neethoven I don't know well enough yet.

Hi Silver Pianist - I thought I'd like to add my experiences to the wealth of postings you've already generated...

Like you, I'm 54. I bought a piano 3 years ago and started to teach myself (from scratch), initially just to see whether I could actually manage the co-ordination of hands. I was so amazed and delighted to be able to play a simple Mozart piece! I've now had a wonderful teacher for about 7 months and she has brought me on much more quickly. I decided I didn't want to take exams, as my nervousness when performing would give me little chance of passing and I don't like the pressure! I do work hard, however, practising for about 1.5 hours a day and longer at weekends. I work on pieces in the Grades 4-6 range, scales higher than that, but sight reading much lower - in fact this is my greatest bugbear at the moment.

I am going to take my theory exams as written work holds no worries for me, so I'm starting in June with Grade 3 and will carry on as far as I can. I thought it would be good to aim for a fair degree of musical literacy by the time I retire (5.5 years' time!) and then I want to have a go at composition.

I think it's wonderful for you to have passed your Grade 6 - congratulations! I just couldn't imagine doing that as I even have trouble playing to my teacher and she's lovely!

It's been very heartening to read all these posts from late starters - there must be hope for us after all!!!.

Dear Jen W

Gosh!

So many new adult beginners coming out of the woodwork all the time! It's fantastic!

You are doing so well with only three years behind you to be playing pieces at those grades! Well done.

I did did my first exam (grade 2) when I had been learning for 3 years and this was because, as I said before, I wanted the exam stick to beat me as I was not concentrating on the scales and sightreading enough and just playing new pieces was not really bringing me on fast enough in terms of technique. I suppose I was not practising properly. But that is how it was (and still is!) with me. However, there are many others on this thread who have said that they do not want to do exams and yet have made fantastic progress so do what you feel comfortable doing. Sounds you are doing fine. Yes, sight reading is a bugbear and I am convinced that it just comes with experience and regular practice and how many miles you have behind you. 3 years is an awfully short time!

Which pieces are you playing at the moment and which ones have you/do you enjoyed/enjoy?

Dear Bruno

How is the grade 6 practice going?

Have you a date yet for the summer exam?

And did you ever check out the Maxwell Davies Farewell to Stromness or are you too busy with the exam preparation?

Look forward to hearing how things are going?

Dear Silver Pianist

I'm currently playing a Bach Prelude and a Schubert Waltz, but my favourites over the last 6 months have included MacDowell's "To a Wild Rose" (my best piece!), "La Caroline" by CPE Bach and a Chopin Prelude (the easiest one!). We did a grade 6 piece by Brahms but I asked to drop it as I made it sound like a dirge, rather than a waltz!! One thing worries me, and that is that I don't give enough time to each piece to produce a polished performance (ie one which would be good enough for an exam) before we move on to something else. I realise however that it's good to keep learning new things and I think my teacher is keen to pack as much in as quickly as possible. I try to work on the older pieces at weekends to bring them along a bit.

I would love to improve my sight reading - it must be wonderful just to pick up a piece of music and play it through straightaway. I've an excellent memory and have tended to learn pieces by heart. With the Bach Prelude however, I decided to keep my eyes on the music from day one, not looking down, and not memorising. I'm taking a bit longer to learn the piece but feel I have broken a barrier as it's given me confidence with hand positioning etc. I'm also working through a book of sight reading pieces (only grade 3 I'm afraid!) and am determined to break this barrier too.

Did you attempt to teach yourself when you first started? I got as far as the grade 2 book on my own, but could get no further and I fear my technique was appalling. My teacher has retired from full time work and is in her 70s so has many years' experience. She seems to have an answer for each and every one of my 'insurmountable' problems, comes at them from every angle and never gives up on me - amazing! Have you had the same teacher all the time you've been learning and do you have half or hour long lessons & how often?

Well done to all those who passed exams and good luck to those taking in the near future.
I have just entered the poll on adult beginners so i thought I had better post something! I started classical guitar 31/2 years ago and I am about to take my grade 5. I did play brass in my youth but had not played for 20+ years. I have just returned to trumpet playing aslo ( I would prefer baritone but I only have a trumpet to hans so i am trying to save for a Baritone )
I am hoping to getto grade 8 and do the teaching diploma. I will also take soem exms on brass when I have a little more time!!

Dear Jen W

Those pieces sound interesting and I shall have to look them out.

[QUOTE One thing worries me, and that is that I don't give enough time to each piece to produce a polished performance (ie one which would be good enough for an exam) before we move on to something else.[/QUOTE]

There is a thread on this under Teachers and called Motivation. An interesting spread of views.

[QUOTE] I would love to improve my sight reading - it must be wonderful just to pick up a piece of music and play it through straightaway. I've an excellent memory and have tended to learn pieces by heart.[/QUOTE]

Same here! There are also a number of threads on sightreading. I would imagine that you just need to get more mileage behind you. You have been playing for so little time!

[QUOTE]Did you attempt to teach yourself when you first started?[/QUOTE]

No, I never tried to teach myself. I have had the same teacher since I began 10 years ago. She is about to retire and I have found a new teacher who I will begin with from September. I started with 30 min lessons per week until after grade 5 when I extended to 45 minutes per week. It's not enough, I admit, but it all becomes so expensive to have longer when both my children have lessons too!

I must admit that after a day at work, I find that I rarely do myself justice in the lesson as sometimes I am very tired. On the odd occasion when I have managed to get a lesson on a Saturday morning, I feel so much better and refreshed but Sat morning slots are rare to get. Does anyone else have this problem with a lesson at the end of a long working day?

QUOTE (Silver pianist @ May 28 2004, 09:25 AM)

I must admit that after a day at work, I find that I rarely do myself justice in the lesson as sometimes I am very tired.  On the odd occasion when I have managed to get a lesson on a Saturday morning, I feel so much better and refreshed but Sat morning slots are rare to get.  Does anyone else have this problem with a lesson at the end of a long working day?[/b]

Wow! I am so lucky! I have a 2 hour lesson on a Sunday evening. Expensive - yes (or is it...£34??), and it just sets me up for the week ahead.

This is not intended as a gloat....Sorry if it sounds like it. It's just that the lesson is so much part of the enjoyment for me.

PS. I'm not a 'morning person' . A Sat am lesson would be wasted on me....Same goes for the end of a working day, I think.

Does your teacher do Sundays? I can recommend Sunday pm.

Thanks Silver Pianist for pointing out the thread on the teachers' forum.

I'm fortunate enough to work only 4 days a week, so have lessons on Monday mornings. My problem is with practising on the days I go to work as I'm never at my best in the evenings but I try to keep to a regular slot - after tea & before "The Archers"!

I find the worst thing at my age is my powers of concentration - the longer the piece, the more likely I am to 'lose it' before I reach the end. I find myself thinking about everything but the music. Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with this?

I started piano when i was 6 but then i was really bad at it. There are people who learns piano at a rather old age, but age doesn't really matter so much. It's your interest, motivation and willingness to practice that matters.

Dear Silver Pianist,

I had to postpone to the next session as I could not find enough time to practice . The Mozart and the Columbine are coming along but I really struggled with the Debussy . On paper it looked like the easiest one but I found it difficult really play it . So I decided to choose the Musorgsky instead . So still a lot of practice hours before I take the exam .
I did not have time to look at the Stromness yet but will do.

QUOTE (Jen W @ May 26 2004, 01:42 PM)

I'm currently playing a Bach Prelude and a Schubert Waltz, but my favourites over the last 6 months have included MacDowell's "To a Wild Rose" (my best piece!),

I have done "To a Wild Rose" recently and it nearly drove me mad. It's a nice piece but for some reason I became really wound up everytime I had to play it. I used to talk myself into playing it wrong all the time so in the end I had to put it to one side. I still get it out to play occasionaly and I seem to be more relaxed about it now.

QUOTE

I find the worst thing at my age is my powers of concentration - the longer the piece, the more likely I am to 'lose it' before I reach the end. I find myself thinking about everything but the music. Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with this?

I know exactly what you mean about concentration I find this really difficult. I find all sort of thoughts start entering my head. I wonder if it's a result of years of working and child rearing, always having so much on the go and constantly thinking about what I need to do. I now find it very difficult to switch off and just spend time doing something for "me". Recently I have tried singing the music in my head and this seems to help a bit, a least during practice sessions, performance situations are completely different.

My main problem with concentration is one of self-consciousness, ie I'm not too bad when practising, and can focus 99% on the music but it's when I'm playing to the teacher/husband/sons/daughters-in-law etc etc. This is why it would be hopeless for me to take practical exams! I would love to know how I could overcome this.

[QUOTE] I find the worst thing at my age is my powers of concentration - the longer the piece, the more likely I am to 'lose it' before I reach the end. I find myself thinking about everything but the music. Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with this? [QUOTE]

I have no problem with concentration and can happily switch off from the trials and tribulations of the day when practising. In fact the act of playing (because I find it so difficult!!) makes me concentrate so much, so 100%, that my mind never wanders. On the other hand, if I do have something that is worrying me and that I need to ponder, I cannot practise in the first place, as I am not in the right frame of mind!

[QUOTE] My main problem with concentration is one of self-consciousness, ie I'm not too bad when practising, and can focus 99% on the music but it's when I'm playing to the teacher/husband/sons/daughters-in-law etc etc. This is why it would be hopeless for me to take practical exams! I would love to know how I could overcome this. [/QUOTE]

I was like this but it really is a question of the more you do. I am really OK now in front of family and friends but that is because the majority of them do not play an instrument! As I have said before, I think, as adults, we are more aware of our shortcomings than most children. I have never yet performed in front of an audience at a public event which my children have many times when they do end of term concerts. They appear completely unselfconscious about it. However, I have always been performance shy, never appeared in plays etc at school and hate standing up on my hind legs to give a talk or an address which I have to do a lot for work!

I really think it all comes with practice and experience!

What do others think?

Sorry for this complete non-seq in the current discussion, but thought some may find these sites of interest..

Passion for Piano is 'is a website especially for adult piano students featuring a daily weblog, monthly newsletter, and links to online resources...'

Piano Forte News is ' a quarterly newsletter for adult amateur pianists and music lovers'

To all adult learners, do you mind if your teacher is younger than you? I am a pianist and I intend to learn the violin as an adult beginner but I don't feel comfortable to study with a teacher who is much younger than me. Does any one of you have such a problem? Please share your experience.

Thought I'd bring this to the top again!

Off to do performance asessment tomorrow. Playing three pieces:

Chopin: Mazurka in G# minor (Op. 33 no. 1)
Satie: Gnossiene no. 3
Bach: Prelude no. 12 from Eighteen Little Preludes.

The Chopin piece is definately the 'main event' as its by far the hardest, and the initial plan was to do the Bach piece first as that's the easiest. In fact to play it as a prelude to warm up / get the feel of piano. *However* I'm now really enjoying Chopin but struggling with the second section of the Bach!!

I'm thinking of playing them in the order above so I don't completely wreck my confidence by starting off messing up the easiest piece!!!

When I did my grades 6 - 8 theory my teacher was the same age as my eldest daughter.
She was at the time still at college.
I had no problem with this as she was such a good teacher... the age really was not an issue because of her natural teaching skills. I was concerned at the start that being so much younger than I was might mean that she would feel the need to be a bit 'pushy' for want of a better word. I needn't have been and with her very able tuition I got distnction at all 3 grades

Just realised I'd misread the letter - it's next Thursday! Pity as I was all psyched up for it!

QUOTE (Lis @ Jun 12 2004, 07:18 PM)

To all adult learners, do you mind if your teacher is younger than you? I am a pianist and I intend to learn the violin as an adult beginner but I don't feel comfortable to study with a teacher who is much younger than me. Does any one of you have such a problem? Please share your experience.

No, I do not mind my teachers being younger than me. i did have one teacher who was older than me, but I ditched him as soon as I could as he did not see why I wanted to learn the violin at my age. .

Since then both my teachers have been female. After leaving the male teacher my 1st teacher got me through my grades 2 and 3. She had to leave the area as she in now at teacher training college. My current female teacher is also very good (and patient) and I'm taking my grade 4 on 3 July

Hi Stumac

Only just seen this. Sorry to have missed wishing you luck in your performance assessment that must have taken place today.

Do let us all know how you got on and what the comments were.

Nice pieces!

Hi StuMac

Hope it went ok, let us know how you did.

QUOTE (StuMac @ Jun 17 2004, 08:21 PM)

Off to do performance asessment tomorrow.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Dear Lis,
my first teacher was younger than me and my current teacher is older. It doesn't make any difference so long as the teacher plays better than me. I suppose I expext my teacher to be mature enough to realise that you dont stop having ambitions when you have children but any good teacher realises that.

Mikka