Hey!
Just a question - what is the difference between all of the difference names given to pieces, like:
SONATA
SONATINA
CONCERTTO
MOVEMENT
SICILIENE (spelling???)
SYMPHONY

As I'm writing more music now, I have LOADS of trouble naming things. I wondered what all of the above meant, so I could call pieces them.

One more?? - does a symphony have to be written for full orchestra, or could you have one for piano solo. Also, what differeent movements have to be in a symphony - are there any???

ANY MORE INFO WOULD BE GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks
JOnathan

Okay, well, first of all a Sonata has a special form, called Sonata Form (surprise, surprise:)). It has 3 sections, usually addressed to as just A, B and A.
First A section is the Exposition and it has two subjects, the first is usually in the tonic key and the second is in the dominant (5th) key. Then the section is repeated. There is also a modulating bridge (a.k.a. the transition)
The B section is called the Development, and this is where themes from the first sections are developed and altered slightly.
Then the A section is repeated with a small change, and this is the recapitulation. Then comes a coda - which is Italian for a tail piece.

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata has three movements: The first one is strange because it is a slow one, where as it is more common for a first movement to be fast.


If you want to know more about it, visit this sight:

http://www.musicappreciation.com/sonata_form.htm

A sonatina is just a smaller version of a Sonata. A concerto is a piece of music written for an orchestra and a solo instrument. There are all sorts of concertos: piano concertos, clarinet, violin, flute, oboe. Basically any instrument that can sustain a solo role.


A movement is a section of a symphony. There are usually 3 movements in a symphony in order: Presto, Largo, Presto. (Quickly , slowly, quickly)

Hope this helps.

I'm not sure what a siciliene is though. Sorry!

Jonathan - you need a good music dictionary ! I have a pocket one which was given me by my teacher when I was about 15 - it always comes in handy.

Anyway - here are a few:

Symphony - a work in (usually ) 4 sections - each section is called a movement.
Some composers have written symphonies in 3 or 5 movements but 4 is most usual. The most usual pattern is a fairly long first movement, a slow second movement, a dance-like third movement and a finale (last movement) - often a fairly long one again. Styles developed though and vary depending what period the symphony was written.

Sonata - a work for solo instrument, usually in 3 movements.

Sonatina - a mini sonata.

Sicilienne - a piece in lilting style and in compound time.

I'll look these up and if my trusty dictionary disagrees I'll post later! The above are all broad and rather general, but should give you some idea.

The names sometimes overlap - for instance a concerto is a work for solo instrument with orchestra, but the Saint-Saens wrote an organ symphony which has a solo organ part.

Hope this gets you off the starting blocks.

ps my dictionary states that a sonata can be two, three or four movements. Three is more usual in the classical sonata I think (eg Haydn and Mozart,) but it reminded me that most of Domenico Scarlatti's sonatas are in one single movement.

Ah, okay - sorry I was wrong about the Symphony thing. It is usually in four movements, not three. Sorry, I've just learnt it at school and the information hasn't sunk in yet.

Baroque wind sonatas are usually four movements, often slow-fast-slow-fast. Handel has been known to get up to seven movements (B minor flute sonata).

Unfortunately, rigid definitions of these terms have many exceptions. A symphony usually means a large work for a big orchestra, but could be for strings only, as was common in the middle of the 18th C; or it could be an instrumental introduction to a Baroque oratorio (or an opera, IIRC). For much of the 19th and 20th centuries, four movements were common, but in middle of the 18th C., three-movement symphonies were the norm until a new, North-German tradition, in which four were written, was started by C P E Bach. Off-hand, I can think of Berlioz' "Fantastic Symphony", Schumann's "Rhenish", Mahler's Fifth and Suk's "Asrael" that have five movements, and more recent exceptions to the rule of four were Hindemith's "Mathis der Maler" (1934: related to his opera of the same name), in three, and Stravinsky's "Symphony in three movements" of 1945. One of the most interesting 20th C symphonies is the 7th of Sibelius, which is in one continuous movement. Sections within it correspond to the traditional movements, with smooth transformations from one to the next.

Until about 1700, a Concerto was more likely to have multiple soloists (the concertino group) than just one, and both J S Bach and Charles-Valentin Alkan (1813-88) wrote works for solo keyboard with Concerto in the title.

Sonata originally meant "sounded" (i.e. just for instruments) in contrast to Cantata (sung). "Sonata form" is described more completely as "Classical sonata form": Baroque sonatas are usually in ritornello form. Domenico Scarlatti's keyboard sonatas (which are in one movement) often show the key structure that was eventually elaborated into Classical sonata form, but it is hard to identify a development section within them.

Do symphonys have to be for full orchestra, or could you have a symphony for piano solo - not just a piano reduction??

I always thought symphonies were foe full orchestra... I guess that's where the term symphony orchestra came from! That wasn't meant to be in any way sarcastic... I know all the words get confusing and I guess that symphonies might not always be written for just symphony orchestra! But I have never heard of a symphony for solo instrument so yes, definitely for full orchestra!

Just to complicate matters: Widor's Organ symphonies are for solo organ! Although I believe that the name arises due to the popular practice at the time of transcribing various orchestral pieces for Organ (although this one was originally written for organ).

so, you reckon I can't write a symphont for solo piano?
Would I have to do a Sonata instead??

CONFUSED!!!!!!

Or maybe a symphony for solo piano IS a sonata......?

If you are not sure about using these particular descriptions then just give your composition a title.

Also possibly qualifies because in popular circles the organ was called a 'one man orchestra' around the turn of the 20 Century. Many british and colonial civic halls installed organs just for concerts. Many organ stops from then were likened to orchestral instruments (some are even named after them).

Symphonies (from the time of Haydn) for solos other than organ must be rare, then. But they don't have to be scored for standard "full" orchestras either. There're a few symphonies for strings; not sure if there are any for wind but I think Lloyd wrote one for brass.

Moral of the story: don't get too caught up with naming. For every 'type' you will find exceptions.

PF

What is a nocturne,
prelude,
fantasie?
All of these crop up alot in piano stuff - what are they, & are there any others?

Thanks
Jonathan

nocturne is a slow dreamy and romantic piece
prelude is either an introduction to a piece or a short melodious piece (e.g. Chopin Preludes)
a fantasie is almost concerto like in the sense that it shows the skills of a player (e.g. Chopin Fantasie Impromtu or Fantasie in F minor Op.42)

if you're writing a 3/4 movement work for solo piano call it a sonata
..though a sonatina would be easier

a nocturne translates into english as "night music" or similar. typically slow, relaxing, with a clear melody over the top of changing harmonies. the irish composer john field first coined the term, but chopin is more synonymous with them now, liszt also wrote 3 called "Liebestraume: 3 Notturnos" (notturno=nocturne)

Terms more honoured in the breach than in the observance I suspect!

A Nocturne literally would be a piece "of the night", but it more suggests the style - highly embellished right hand melody over a broken chord pattern in the left. Check out Chopin and John Field for good examples.
Prelude/Fantasy - pretty much free form works for solo instrument, though I'd hazard a guess at saying the fantasy tended to be the meatier, longer, more thematically ranging work? Need Mr Hopwood or KenM on the case methinks.

I don't know if you're joking or you're serious if you say a 3 or 4 movement work will be always and surely called sonata. The word "sonata" comes from "sonata form". Almost everything's in sonata form, the symphony is merely saying "sonata for orchestra" with just a few other different things (like they usually have 4 movements, not 3 like a piano sonata, but a lot of piano sonatas have 4 movements, too!). A string quartet, string trio, or any other work for a chamber group is also usually written in sonata form (you know what sonata form is already).

The sonata is written for many other instruments, too. Violin, cello; almost every instrument has a kind of "sonata"! Usually those instruments are accompanied by piano.

A sonata can consist of more or less than just 3 or 4 movements, some consist of only 2 movements with no separate slow section, some in 5, and sometimes they're sort of mixed up together. Liszt's sonata in B minor really consists of 4 movements, but they aren't separated and have strong relation.


A nocturne is a night piece, as a lot of other people have said, and it does usually have a melody in the right hand and accompaniment in the left (but not neccesarily broken chord-how about Chopin's E flat, Op. 9 No. 2? That seems like chords, not arpeggios).

A prelude, as the name suggests, was usually a piece created specially to be played before the main "exhibiton" or work, like an opera, but in the Romantic and 20th century periods it became an independent work by itself.

A fantasy, is a work composed freely without any specific rules and limitatons in structure.

sorry, I don't think so.
The word Sonata comes from the Italian verb sonare, which means to sound or play.

Sonata as a piece of music evolved into sonata form, or the sonata form movement.

I believe the answer you really need will not lie in messages read here. it sounds as though you should be studying music at college/uni.

Yes, but that's not what I meant. I mean, the word "sonata" has a strong relationship with "sonata form", and almost everything written in structure is usually in the sonata form.

Before and during the early Baroque period, the word sonata was to mean anything played, not sang - you're right.

A fantasy / fantasia / phatasie is an instumental piece that lacks the formal structure that you find in sonatas ect. This which means that such pieces can have freeness about them, think of what the term 'fantasy' means when it is use to describe a story - a musical fantasy is the same thing!!

The term has nothing to do with the skills of the player, you are probaly thinkingof cadenzas here. These are passages in free time which feature in many pieces of classical music (including Mozart's Fantasy in D minor) where the performer was expected to show his stuff. Cadenzas are not confined to fantasies, and fantasies can be found at all levels of difficulty. A concerto is a work for a solist and orchestra, so I can't really see a connection there!

In the classical period, Fantasies were often used as 'introductions' to more formal works (Mozart Fantasy and sonata), whereas later on they tended to be regarded as indepdendent compositions. Mozart's Fantasy in D minor was first published posthumously as 'Fantasie d' introduction' (the last ten bars or so were written by someon else to finish it off for publication) but nobody knows what he intended it to introduce. Presumably a sonata he never wrote.