I know the names of the tonic sol-fa notes for major scales but what the names for accidentals? And is the minor scale sung this way, "La Ti Do Re Mi Fa Sol La"?

Try looking at the Australian Kodaly website.

Hi violin-ann!

'Sol' is usually only used for the 5th degree of a major scale in fixed doh - it is more common to use 'soh'.

A natural minor scale would be l, t, d r m f s l

The chromatics ascending are: doh, di, re, ri, me, fah, fi, soh, si, lah, li, ti, doh (spellings vary - there's no 'right answer'!)

And descending: doh, ti, taw, lah, law, soh, saw, fah, me, maw, re, raw, doh.

So harmonic minor is: l, t, d r m f si l

and melodic ascending is: l, t, d r m fi si l

Hope this is helpful!

Oh yes! Very useful, thanks Cyrilla! I'll have a look at the website now, Neil, it looks interesting, thanks!

The only thing I am not sure of on that site is rhythm syllables, where semi-quavers are tika, I usually hear tiri. Similarly dotted quaver-semi quaver is normally tim-ri, not tim-ka.

Neil, tikatika for a group of four semiquavers and tim-ka for dotted quaver/semiquaver is quite widely used...

hi Neil.clarinet,

Thank you for the link, I find tonic solfa so good for teaching sight singing for associated board aural that I really appreciate the link.

I can now progress to accidentals!

So are the ones ending in "aw" pronounced (which is the main thing) like the word "saw" as in "I saw him walking along"?

Previously I'd noted "using flats:
Tonic Sol-fa: DO ra RE ma MI FA sa SO lo LA ta TI DO – ra/ma etc. rhyme with “fa” like “far”"
(sorry they're listed backwards)

And is it then usual to use "law" rather than "lo"?

Grateful for clarification,

Thanks

Since this seems to be a sol-fa help thread I thought I'd add my questions... I've been trying to start to use sol-fa for sight-singing and I'm not really sure where to begin (or more correctly I've begun but I'm fairly sure that I've begun in the wrong way!). So I was just wondering how is one supposed to start?

I've really just started by trying to add the names to the notes, the problem is that I can work out the note faster than I can work out what name I'm supposed to be assigning to it, so I guess that's not really using sol-fa to help. In taking it away from the music and just trying to sing certain groups of notes given the sol-fa names instead, I can get anywhere from do, so instead of mentally learning how to sing ti me or whatever, I internally would sing do, then sing out loud ti, then sing do internally, then sing me out loud which isn't really learning it....

So I guess the question is how are we supposed to start learning? Presumably one has to internalise the sounds of the various different intervals and get used to the words before one can use it, so is it just necessarily to practise various intervals between different notes in the scale? Or should one start by singing tunes that one knows (or learning tunes) with just sol-fa names first to get the hang of what the different combinations of the sol-fa names sound like? I'm just guessing here, of course, I would be grateful if anyone could enlighten me .

Can I add to that by asking: Is there a good way to self-learn sol-fa (kodaly method) without lessons for those of us with commitments to other lessons that mean we can't afford the fees? Is there a recommended book or something?

DomRUK - you can use either vowel sound for the flattened pitches - it's a fairly personal thing and some people tend to use a bit of a mixture! For example, people who use the 'a' sound for eg 'ra' will use the 'aw' sound for the flattened la - otherwise it would still sound like 'la'! I just plumped for the 'aw' sound when describing to someone for whom it was new for this very reason - just simpler in this instance.

Lesleyfx - solfa is just one of the tools used in Kodaly teaching. You really DO have to go on a course to start to really understand it and its possibilities, and also how best to learn it - sorry!

It's almost impossible to learn what it's all about totally from a book - but possibly the most comprehensive book for teachers is an American publication entitled 'The Kodaly Method' by Lois Choksy (pub Prentice Hall). It's horrendously expensive but you may find a used copy on Amazon, or a library should be able to get it for you. It has a good introduction to the approach and then detailed rhythmic and melodic learning for 1st-6th grades.

AnotherPianist - eeek, as I said, it's terribly hard to learn solfa by yourself! The way that Kodaly teachers do it is to teach songs which contain a particular melodic element - then the element is given its solfa names. This means that you always have a piece of 'real music' to relate the solfa to, and this also helps if you forget the sound of an interval (eg if you forget what 'soh-me' sounds like, refer back to the beginning motif of 'This Old Man').

With children we follow a particular order of pitch introduction - pentatonic first as it is easier for children to sing in tune without semitones.

However, for yourself I would suggest starting with diatonic major as this is the most familiar to our ears.

Try just singing a diatonic major scale in solfa, with handsigns if possible! (These reinforce the sound/voice connection through kinaesthetic connection).

Then I would suggest making up small sequences, which is a good way to achieve fluency. For example - drm/rmf/mfs/ etc., ascending and descending. Then be a little more ambitious, eg dmr/rfm/msf/ etc.

Try a pattern of 3rds - d-m/r-f/m-s etc., again ascending and descending.

Then triads - dmsmd/rflfr/mstsm etc.

Try singing intervals and naming them, eg d-r, major 2nd/d-m, major 3rd/d-f, perfect 4th and so on.

And yes, of course work out well-known tunes in solfa and practise singing them in solfa until you can do it quite fast and fluently.

I hope this will at least start you off with a few ideas in the absence of a course.

Apologies for the length of this post but there was a lot to answer!!!

This all sounds sooooo confusing

Eeek, sorry, Nat! I was just trying to answer the various queries the best that I could...

Just trust me that it makes an awful lot more sense when you DO it (remember David Vinden's class! )

All pretty straightforward to me.

Well it would be wouldn't it

Yes, maybe, Neil, but don't forget you have considerably more solfa experience than Nat does (at the moment!)...

And you know why I had no trouble with the aurals last week.

Because you can do them..and I have no ear whatsoever

Neil, being smug about your solfa/aural ability is really not helpful to Nat *stern teacher voice*.

I spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince Nat that she CAN learn to improve her aural ability - it can't be worse than mine was - so please try to encourage her too...

I DO encourage her (as she will tell you), so enough!!!

Thanks Cyrilla, I will try your suggestions out and see how I get on . I'm used to naming intervals by thinking of songs/pieces, but unfortunately I always picked songs where the interval started on the tonic hence I can do intervals from do but I can name intervals by just considering them in isolation, that doesn't help with singing lots in a row though!

Anyway thanks again, I shall try it out .

Natalie: are you trying to become the next Van Gogh ?

Van Gogh??

He was an artist who famously cut off his ear....

Yeah I knew that...just didn't quite figure how it related to me..sorry...maybe I'm just half asleep

You said you had no ear....

Ah yes so I did./




grr wake up nat

If it's any consolation, nat, I've always been good and aurals and it made very little sense to me either!

Oh, dear - so sorry, sarah-flute, Nat and any other confused persons out there - I really did try my best to be clear when suggesting possible 'solfa exercises' to Another Pianist, who clearly already has quite an idea about solfa so I wasn't addressing someone for whom it is all very new.

It just shows how mightily impossible it is to learn about SOUND from SYMBOL when there is no sound attached to the symbol!!!

The solfa letters only make sense when they have an aural image of the sound connected to them.

If I look at, for example: dddfmsmd/s,s,sdt,rt,s/dddfmsmd/rfrt,dd the sounds are singing in my inner hearing (I'm sure Neil will let us all know the name of the song ) - but if you've never sung solfa it's just a jumble of meaningless letters.

Somewhat like a teacher showing a child written notation and then explaining how to make the sound of that notation, rather than the other way round...

I got it on the third sing through in my head....

Fear not, it did make sense to me I definitely need to practise though: your little tune was quite a challenge, especially since I had the rhythm wrong and was singing it about twice as fast as it actually is .

Ah, sorry, should have found a way to show the rhythm too!

I can actually read that in solfa, but I'm way too tired to work what it is! - and I think I mentally transpose it into C major in my head! I bet I'll kick myself when I work it out/you say what it is...

The second section definitely sounds familar, but beats me, I'm sure I have the rhythm all up the creek. Are all the ds low 'doh's??

Yes, the dohs are all low ones (if they were the higher one I would write d').

I'll try to space them so as to show crotchets/quavers for the B section of the tune (in the previous section all the notes are quavers except for the last two which are crotchets).

ms md ms m/rf rt, rf r/ms md ms m/rf rt,d d

I love playing 'Name that Tune' so I ain't tellin' yet!

Argh, I just KNOW I shall be kicking myself, I think I'm just too tired. That B section I am SURE sounds familiar. Presumably this is an obvious tune? ie I WILL have heard of it and am not just going crazy??!

It's a well-known folk song...

I know what it is, but I don't know if the title I know is the usual one - I suspect there is another name but don't know why I think that!

Er - I think there's only one title - but it IS a very similar tune to one or two others!

Ah - I've remembered why I know an odd title to it - we used to either dance to it or use it for a playground game when I was at primary school.

Yes I know what it really is.

*sigh* I'm either just very tired (possible! have played, sung and signed this evening!) or being inordinately stupid... tomorrow I shall take it downstairs and play it on the piano to be sure my sight-singing isn't just totally crazy, and if I still don't recognise it then... well... I need to brush up on my folksongs, I guess!

People.........it is vital that as many musicians as possible go on Kodaly courses. More teachers are required. So many individuals are expressing feelings of confusion relating to Kodaly and solfa etc. In my opinion, it is the way to learn about music. I only just began learning properly about music one year ago when I came by Kodaly by accident.

I have only just read this thread tonight. Neil.......I don't know you but respect your opinions and I have to say that some of your comments are at best unhelpful. There are some very young people who read these threads and who may rely upon the experience of teachers and other musicians. I do not get the feeling that they will be helped or encouraged in any way by some of the things that you have said.

How wonderful it is when 'we' can do it. Not so wonderful if we can't and it is not good when we lose sight of this and forget what it is like to struggle. Congratulations to you on how well you do aural tests and how apparantly easy you find it. I am glad I struggle.....keeps me aware of the struggle of others.

Btw, Hammerklavier OUGHT to be able to Name That Tune as I set it for homework the other week

Great, Maggie!

Sarah-flute - I'm sure you are tired! Let me know what it is when you've checked it on the piano tomorrow (gold stars all round )

Is the 't' high or low? If I work this out, do I get a prize?

I like these Cyrilla! They're very helpful!

All notes below doh have a little comma by them, so the t is the note a semitone below the doh when it's written t,

Perhaps I'll have to do some more 'Name that Tune's! *tries to think of virtual prize*

It's Bobby Shaftoe's gone to sea, silver buckles on his knee, he'll come back & marry me, bonny bobby shaftoe.
Yay

Gold star and first prize to Andy!!!

(THAT should have built up your confidence for the Summer School! )

Busily polishing up gold star.....don't feel quite as stupid as I did before

I had the tune in my head but couldn't think of a title for it. Well done Andrea.

I was wondering what the commas were: I thought they might be something to do with rhythm: I just tried both up and down to see which worked!

I think we've found a new exciting (and educational) virtual game .