*goes out to buy lots of virtual gold stars*
Full Version: Tonic Sol-fa
Perhaps I'd better start a 'Name that Tune' thread????
*goes out to buy lots of virtual gold stars*
*goes out to buy lots of virtual gold stars*
I've got some gold stars Cyrilla....they were from my fruit chart for Lent (i.e eating fruit, I hate it). I have been reading this thread with interest, totally 
but, hoping to learn a tiny bit about it!
but, hoping to learn a tiny bit about it!
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 6 2005, 09:32 AM)
All notes below doh have a little comma by them, so the t is the note a semitone below the doh when it's written t,
Aaaaaaaahhh! That might really help!
I was struggling as I fell asleep last night to think of tunes which started with 3 dohs... (or three d'ohs in my case )Oops, I just saw Andy's post!! LOL. Well I was singing it right except for my ts and some of my ss being in the wrong octave... not really surprising that I got confused
if you sing it to yourself with those up high instead of below the tonic it sounds familiar but WEIRD!Name that tune thread sounds like fun!
Thanks for the offer of the gold stars, Nicki! 
Sorry, I should have explained about the commas business - that must have sounded VERY interesting with certain pitches in the wrong octave!!
Sorry, I should have explained about the commas business - that must have sounded VERY interesting with certain pitches in the wrong octave!!
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 6 2005, 11:03 AM)
Thanks for the offer of the gold stars, Nicki!
Sorry, I should have explained about the commas business - that must have sounded VERY interesting with certain pitches in the wrong octave!!
Sorry, I should have explained about the commas business - that must have sounded VERY interesting with certain pitches in the wrong octave!!
Try it, it sounds most odd!
Well I knew it was Bobby Shaftoe first time - maybe some of you Sol-fa people should do some practice using my singing by numbers...
RUNS FOR COVER!!!!!
(only teasing)
...made up for by my reply at http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...st=0&p=103466&#
RUNS FOR COVER!!!!!
(only teasing)
...made up for by my reply at http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...st=0&p=103466&#
Cyrilla, just having a muse over the sol-fa names of the chromatic notes.
There's a wonderful logic to
DO di RE ri MI FA fi SO si LA li TI DO
because they are all the same sound (-i), AND you can't make the mistake of adding one after MI or TI (where there is a semitone in the scale) as they have the same (-i) sound already.
I guess when inventing the (as it were) flats,
DO ra RE ma MI FA sa SO lo LA ta TI DO – ra/ma etc. rhyme with fa, lo=“lowâ€
but some use: Do raw RE maw MI FA saw SO law LA taw TI DO
there was a dilemma therefore as to whether to use the sound from DO or FA (the two notes above the semitone). The problem was that there were already some notes with these sounds at other points in the scale - SO and LA - so if the (-o) is used, then "sa" must be there instead for the semitone below SO, and if the (-a) is used, the "lo" must be there instead for the semitone below LA.
So, someone thought it would be good to get round this deficiency (in relation to di, ri etc being all the same, but the flats needing to be adjusted with one different sound) by using all the same sound for the flats, i.e. (-aw), even though it doesn't then provide the instant help with making the semitones happen at MI FA and TI DO.
I've noticed however that people tend to like the idea of sol-fa names just having two letters, and maw, saw etc. have three, and you can't get that sound easily without three letters.
I found two other sounds not used elsewhere which could be used, but only one possibility really. The (-oo) sound works, is not used elsewhere, but produces some not so good words such as "moo"!
So may I suggest for future worldwide consideration (!!!) this for the flats:
DO ry RE my MI FA sy SO ly LA ty TI DO (all pronounced like "my" of course)
Maybe the inventors of (-aw) didn't worry about three letters, or didn't consider the vowel that isn't in the usual list of vowels - "y". It also has quite a good logic in that even though the sound of ry, my etc., is very distinct from di, ri etc., the letters i and y are in some way linked, and so recognisable as to do with flats and sharps (as it were), with MI and TI also present however, for the reasons given above. The (-y) sound is also less of a large mouth movement, which is a drawback of (-aw) in relation to all the other sol-fa sounds (when sung fast as a chromatic scale or in a piece, for instance), whereas (-y) fits very well in this respect, with the sound remaining quite distinctive nonetheless.
This could work well - unless "y" is used for something else in sol-fa.
Let me know what you think!
There's a wonderful logic to
DO di RE ri MI FA fi SO si LA li TI DO
because they are all the same sound (-i), AND you can't make the mistake of adding one after MI or TI (where there is a semitone in the scale) as they have the same (-i) sound already.
I guess when inventing the (as it were) flats,
DO ra RE ma MI FA sa SO lo LA ta TI DO – ra/ma etc. rhyme with fa, lo=“lowâ€
but some use: Do raw RE maw MI FA saw SO law LA taw TI DO
there was a dilemma therefore as to whether to use the sound from DO or FA (the two notes above the semitone). The problem was that there were already some notes with these sounds at other points in the scale - SO and LA - so if the (-o) is used, then "sa" must be there instead for the semitone below SO, and if the (-a) is used, the "lo" must be there instead for the semitone below LA.
So, someone thought it would be good to get round this deficiency (in relation to di, ri etc being all the same, but the flats needing to be adjusted with one different sound) by using all the same sound for the flats, i.e. (-aw), even though it doesn't then provide the instant help with making the semitones happen at MI FA and TI DO.
I've noticed however that people tend to like the idea of sol-fa names just having two letters, and maw, saw etc. have three, and you can't get that sound easily without three letters.
I found two other sounds not used elsewhere which could be used, but only one possibility really. The (-oo) sound works, is not used elsewhere, but produces some not so good words such as "moo"!
So may I suggest for future worldwide consideration (!!!) this for the flats:
DO ry RE my MI FA sy SO ly LA ty TI DO (all pronounced like "my" of course)
Maybe the inventors of (-aw) didn't worry about three letters, or didn't consider the vowel that isn't in the usual list of vowels - "y". It also has quite a good logic in that even though the sound of ry, my etc., is very distinct from di, ri etc., the letters i and y are in some way linked, and so recognisable as to do with flats and sharps (as it were), with MI and TI also present however, for the reasons given above. The (-y) sound is also less of a large mouth movement, which is a drawback of (-aw) in relation to all the other sol-fa sounds (when sung fast as a chromatic scale or in a piece, for instance), whereas (-y) fits very well in this respect, with the sound remaining quite distinctive nonetheless.
This could work well - unless "y" is used for something else in sol-fa.
Let me know what you think!
QUOTE(saxlover @ Jul 4 2005, 09:18 PM)
This all sounds sooooo confusing 
You mean SAW confusing....... :
QUOTE
QUOTE(captaincatchy @ Jul 6 2005, 02:13 PM)
QUOTE(saxlover @ Jul 4 2005, 09:18 PM)
This all sounds sooooo confusing Â
 You mean SAW confusing....... :
DomRUK - I have to say, my head is spinning with all your vowel sound suggestions!
I'm going to go and have a lie-down in a darkened room with cucumber over my eyes for a while before I regain the strength necessary for a proper response...
I'm going to go and have a lie-down in a darkened room with cucumber over my eyes for a while before I regain the strength necessary for a proper response...
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 6 2005, 04:35 PM)
DomRUK - I have to say, my head is spinning with all your vowel sound suggestions!
I'm going to go and have a lie-down in a darkened room with cucumber over my eyes for a while before I regain the strength necessary for a proper response...
I'm going to go and have a lie-down in a darkened room with cucumber over my eyes for a while before I regain the strength necessary for a proper response...
Hey Cyrilla, where's the next Name The Tune tune coming up? I want gold stars too!
Promise I'll start a new thread sooooooon, violin-ann!
I'm just puzzling about how best to show the rhythm...(one reason I chose Bobby Shafto cos it's very simple!)
I'm just puzzling about how best to show the rhythm...(one reason I chose Bobby Shafto cos it's very simple!)
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 6 2005, 05:15 PM)
Promise I'll start a new thread sooooooon, violin-ann!
I'm just puzzling about how best to show the rhythm...(one reason I chose Bobby Shafto cos it's very simple!)
I'm just puzzling about how best to show the rhythm...(one reason I chose Bobby Shafto cos it's very simple!)
Maybe you could write out the solfa and then underneath write crotchet, rest, quaver or whatever.
QUOTE(DomRUK @ Jul 6 2005, 12:44 PM)
Cyrilla, just having a muse over the sol-fa names of the chromatic notes.
There's a wonderful logic to
DO di RE ri MI FA fi SO si LA li TI DO
because they are all the same sound (-i), AND you can't make the mistake of adding one after MI or TI (where there is a semitone in the scale) as they have the same (-i) sound already.
I guess when inventing the (as it were) flats,
DO ra RE ma MI FA sa SO lo LA ta TI DO – ra/ma etc. rhyme with fa, lo=“lowâ€
but some use: Do raw RE maw MI FA saw SO law LA taw TI DO
there was a dilemma therefore as to whether to use the sound from DO or FA (the two notes above the semitone). The problem was that there were already some notes with these sounds at other points in the scale - SO and LA - so if the (-o) is used, then "sa" must be there instead for the semitone below SO, and if the (-a) is used, the "lo" must be there instead for the semitone below LA.
So, someone thought it would be good to get round this deficiency (in relation to di, ri etc being all the same, but the flats needing to be adjusted with one different sound) by using all the same sound for the flats, i.e. (-aw), even though it doesn't then provide the instant help with making the semitones happen at MI FA and TI DO.
I've noticed however that people tend to like the idea of sol-fa names just having two letters, and maw, saw etc. have three, and you can't get that sound easily without three letters.
I found two other sounds not used elsewhere which could be used, but only one possibility really. The (-oo) sound works, is not used elsewhere, but produces some not so good words such as "moo"!
So may I suggest for future worldwide consideration (!!!) this for the flats:
DO ry RE my MI FA sy SO ly LA ty TI DO (all pronounced like "my" of course)
Maybe the inventors of (-aw) didn't worry about three letters, or didn't consider the vowel that isn't in the usual list of vowels - "y". It also has quite a good logic in that even though the sound of ry, my etc., is very distinct from di, ri etc., the letters i and y are in some way linked, and so recognisable as to do with flats and sharps (as it were), with MI and TI also present however, for the reasons given above. The (-y) sound is also less of a large mouth movement, which is a drawback of (-aw) in relation to all the other sol-fa sounds (when sung fast as a chromatic scale or in a piece, for instance), whereas (-y) fits very well in this respect, with the sound remaining quite distinctive nonetheless.
This could work well - unless "y" is used for something else in sol-fa.
Let me know what you think!
There's a wonderful logic to
DO di RE ri MI FA fi SO si LA li TI DO
because they are all the same sound (-i), AND you can't make the mistake of adding one after MI or TI (where there is a semitone in the scale) as they have the same (-i) sound already.
I guess when inventing the (as it were) flats,
DO ra RE ma MI FA sa SO lo LA ta TI DO – ra/ma etc. rhyme with fa, lo=“lowâ€
but some use: Do raw RE maw MI FA saw SO law LA taw TI DO
there was a dilemma therefore as to whether to use the sound from DO or FA (the two notes above the semitone). The problem was that there were already some notes with these sounds at other points in the scale - SO and LA - so if the (-o) is used, then "sa" must be there instead for the semitone below SO, and if the (-a) is used, the "lo" must be there instead for the semitone below LA.
So, someone thought it would be good to get round this deficiency (in relation to di, ri etc being all the same, but the flats needing to be adjusted with one different sound) by using all the same sound for the flats, i.e. (-aw), even though it doesn't then provide the instant help with making the semitones happen at MI FA and TI DO.
I've noticed however that people tend to like the idea of sol-fa names just having two letters, and maw, saw etc. have three, and you can't get that sound easily without three letters.
I found two other sounds not used elsewhere which could be used, but only one possibility really. The (-oo) sound works, is not used elsewhere, but produces some not so good words such as "moo"!
So may I suggest for future worldwide consideration (!!!) this for the flats:
DO ry RE my MI FA sy SO ly LA ty TI DO (all pronounced like "my" of course)
Maybe the inventors of (-aw) didn't worry about three letters, or didn't consider the vowel that isn't in the usual list of vowels - "y". It also has quite a good logic in that even though the sound of ry, my etc., is very distinct from di, ri etc., the letters i and y are in some way linked, and so recognisable as to do with flats and sharps (as it were), with MI and TI also present however, for the reasons given above. The (-y) sound is also less of a large mouth movement, which is a drawback of (-aw) in relation to all the other sol-fa sounds (when sung fast as a chromatic scale or in a piece, for instance), whereas (-y) fits very well in this respect, with the sound remaining quite distinctive nonetheless.
This could work well - unless "y" is used for something else in sol-fa.
Let me know what you think!
How on earth can the above be described as being a wonderful logic? domRUK I simply cannot even begin to even try and get my head around this. It has to be the first time that Kodaly has ever been made into rocket science!
I wonder if you might consider a career as a data analyst or something like that. You certainly have a gift in arranging data even if we don't know what it means. I sincerely hope also that the word 'moo' will DEFINITELY not find its way into the Kodaly vocabulary!
Or something like chinese music, you put dots after the notes that need holding, hence a minim do would be 'd..' And quavers are 'd-d-d' So I suppose a dotted crotchet would be 'd.-' cos normally you don't need to put a dot for crotchets. And a / would mean rest unless it's more than one beat then you can add dots. Of course chinese music doesn't use tonic sol-fa, they use numbers. And I'm no expert at it, just roughly guessing at the symbols.
Sorry I don't know Bobby Shaftoe, but I do know this one,
'dddm..ds.../..., dddm..dr.../..., dddm..ds.../..., slsfmrd.../...' This one is easy
Sorry I don't know Bobby Shaftoe, but I do know this one,
'dddm..ds.../..., dddm..dr.../..., dddm..ds.../..., slsfmrd.../...'
This one is easy
Great idea for the rhythm, violin-ann, thank you!
Well, it sounds like 'Here we go Looby Loo' (gosh, takes me back to the days of Andy Pandy...
) but maybe there are other names for this tune???
Do I get a gold star?
Who's next to give us a tune - roll up, roll up!
Well, it sounds like 'Here we go Looby Loo' (gosh, takes me back to the days of Andy Pandy...
) but maybe there are other names for this tune???Do I get a gold star?
Who's next to give us a tune - roll up, roll up!
Apart from anything else (!) I don't think the 'MY' etc thing would work for flattened sounds because it is a diphthong - ie 2 vowel sounds (Mah+ee) - and all the other vowel sounds used are 'pure' Italianate vowels. This is why solfa works well when people are singing different syllables simultaneously (as in part work, not just when they've gone wrong )
)
I know the tune, but I haven't a clue what the name of it is.
There is a fully developed method for showing rhythm in sol-fa symbols using punctuation. If you look at old choral editions quite often the entire vocal line, rhythm and all is written out in sol-fa above the 'conventional' notation. I believe they use bar lines with colons before the note to mark accented beats, full stops for the unaccented beats and spacing for subdivided beats. I think there is more to it, but can't remember. Why not use a known notation which already exists and is known to work.
eg:
The challenge this time is not to name the tune, but spot any mistakes I have failed to edit out! - I have capitalised for down an octave.
|doh .doh :doh .re |mi . :re . |doh .mi :re .re |doh . : . |doh .doh :doh .re |mi . :re . |doh .mi :re .re |doh . : . |re .re :re .re |La . :La . |
My problem with name the tune is relating the one letter abreviations to the sol-fa symbols- particularly when it starts df - my brain instantly concludes D to F is a minor third when it knows full well Doh to Fa is a 4th.
Speaking of aural, I am not sure the AB does any favours by confining the early grades sightsinging to 'easy' keys. If it could be in any key might it encourage reading relative to the tonic by whatever means?
eg:
The challenge this time is not to name the tune, but spot any mistakes I have failed to edit out! - I have capitalised for down an octave.
|doh .doh :doh .re |mi . :re . |doh .mi :re .re |doh . : . |doh .doh :doh .re |mi . :re . |doh .mi :re .re |doh . : . |re .re :re .re |La . :La . |
My problem with name the tune is relating the one letter abreviations to the sol-fa symbols- particularly when it starts df - my brain instantly concludes D to F is a minor third when it knows full well Doh to Fa is a 4th.
Speaking of aural, I am not sure the AB does any favours by confining the early grades sightsinging to 'easy' keys. If it could be in any key might it encourage reading relative to the tonic by whatever means?
If this is supposed to be 'Au clair de la lune' , some of your solfa is rather questionable. The normal version goes:
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 07:41 AM)
Apart from anything else (!) I don't think the 'MY' etc thing would work for flattened sounds because it is a diphthong - ie 2 vowel sounds (Mah+ee) - and all the other vowel sounds used are 'pure' Italianate vowels. This is why solfa works well when people are singing different syllables simultaneously (as in part work, not just when they've gone wrong )
)Interesting comment - but I don't find I say "-y" like "Mah + ee", rather I say it as one simple sound, like "lie", "sigh", "bye", "hi" etc,. so I don't think there would be a difficulty there.
Hope Cyrilla recovers from under the cucumber eye-patches soon!
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 02:27 PM)
If this is supposed to be 'Au clair de la lune' , some of your solfa is rather questionable. The normal version goes:
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
Aargh! At least I got the rhythm right which was the point of the posting. I have changed the dohs to re for which I can offer no excuse beyond carelessness, but I can't accept Fah. So I went and looked on the internet and the version I could find goes down only to La (which also sounds familiar to me- Soh may be a deviation). Fah I don't know and I am now seriously puzzled. *What* did Lully write?
Yes, I'm aware of the shorthand rhythm notation used with the solfa in the old Curwen editions of music, but I have never used it - so I'll have to look it up and learn it before I can use it!
Hmmm - Au Clair de la Lune definitely goes r r r r l, l, in the third phrase in all versions I've ever come across - never heard a version with either soh or fah instead
I'm afraid however you try to pronounce it, DomRUK, the vowel sound in 'my' IS a diphthong and as HelenVJ says, the others are 'pure' Italianate vowels and are used because of the better intonation achieved.
I HAVE tried to fathom your post again *takes cucumber off eyes* but I can't really get to grips with it at all. I don't know who you would take your ideas to in order to have them widely adopted...I see that you're trying to standardise the vowel for the flattened solfa but I've been using the compromised versions for a long time with no problem (they are generally fairly rarely sung, anyway - the most I ever used them was when singing patterns of secondary dominants )
Hmmm - Au Clair de la Lune definitely goes r r r r l, l, in the third phrase in all versions I've ever come across - never heard a version with either soh or fah instead
I'm afraid however you try to pronounce it, DomRUK, the vowel sound in 'my' IS a diphthong and as HelenVJ says, the others are 'pure' Italianate vowels and are used because of the better intonation achieved.
I HAVE tried to fathom your post again *takes cucumber off eyes* but I can't really get to grips with it at all. I don't know who you would take your ideas to in order to have them widely adopted...I see that you're trying to standardise the vowel for the flattened solfa but I've been using the compromised versions for a long time with no problem (they are generally fairly rarely sung, anyway - the most I ever used them was when singing patterns of secondary dominants
)
Yes, Cyrilla, you get Gold Stars! It WAS meant to be Looby Loo.
Erm, I think MY head is now spinning from erard's post about the symbols for tonic sol-fa. If I can get my head to stop, then maybe I could get round to learning it
Ok, looks like we'd better spell out the tonic sol-fa properly then!
Btw, the Au Clair De La Lune tune.. maybe somebody tried to re-invent it like the way DomRUK did with the tonic sol-fa?? And I thought the second phrase is supposed to be doh mi re re doh??? And not doh re mi mi doh.
It WAS meant to be Looby Loo. Erm, I think MY head is now spinning from erard's post about the symbols for tonic sol-fa. If I can get my head to stop, then maybe I could get round to learning it
Ok, looks like we'd better spell out the tonic sol-fa properly then!
Btw, the Au Clair De La Lune tune.. maybe somebody tried to re-invent it like the way DomRUK did with the tonic sol-fa??
And I thought the second phrase is supposed to be doh mi re re doh??? And not doh re mi mi doh.
QUOTE(violin-ann @ Jul 7 2005, 04:54 PM)
Btw, the Au Clair De La Lune tune.. maybe somebody tried to re-invent it like the way DomRUK did with the tonic sol-fa??
Now I am totally ashamed- I (believe) I am better than that at writing tunes by ear in standard notation- obviously thinking I could translate it into solmization without misshap was hubris. I will have to console myself by using fancy words...
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 02:27 PM)
If this is supposed to be 'Au clair de la lune' , some of your solfa is rather questionable. The normal version goes:
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
Thank goodness - I have my notifications sent to send me the latest post, and I was humming through the solfa being REALLY confused because it didn't seem quite right. Kinda relieved it wasn't MY brain playing sillywotnots for once!
QUOTE(DomRUK @ Jul 7 2005, 02:41 PM)
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 07:41 AM)
Apart from anything else (!) I don't think the 'MY' etc thing would work for flattened sounds because it is a diphthong - ie 2 vowel sounds (Mah+ee) - and all the other vowel sounds used are 'pure' Italianate vowels. This is why solfa works well when people are singing different syllables simultaneously (as in part work, not just when they've gone wrong )
)Interesting comment - but I don't find I say "-y" like "Mah + ee", rather I say it as one simple sound, like "lie", "sigh", "bye", "hi" etc,. so I don't think there would be a difficulty there.
Hope Cyrilla recovers from under the cucumber eye-patches soon!
Yes, indeed you might say lie, hi etc - but what would you do if you were singing it on a long note? Try it! You will find you have to change vowel sounds somewhere( because the 'y'is a diphthong! - see original post!)
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 02:27 PM)
If this is supposed to be 'Au clair de la lune' , some of your solfa is rather questionable. The normal version goes:
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
dddr m- r-( not d) dmrrd (repeat) Third line - rrrr FAH FAH ( not Soh!!) rdtls etc. But if you have another tune in mind, then I'm talking off the top of my head.
Sorry - of course, I meant to write rrrr LAH LAH!! ( not f - and definitely not S!!) I'm blaming my typing skills, not my aural ones.
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 8 2005, 06:01 AM)
Yes, indeed you might say lie, hi etc - but what would you do if you were singing it on a long note? Try it! You will find you have to change vowel sounds somewhere( because the 'y'is a diphthong! - see original post!)
And even if you think you say lie, my as single sounds... well, you really don't unless you speak a dialect... even if you say it really quickly there are two distinct sounds if you know what you're listening for. If you have ever learned other languages to a high level then you will know how different vowel sounds can be, and in English if I recall my TEFL training properly we have few really pure vowel sounds as compared to ie Italian... As Helen said, if you try to sing "my" on a long note, you end up with the two sounds - if you try to sing just one then you end up singing "maaaah" - to actually sing "my" the mouth moves quite distinctly to two different shapes. When I sing it (I've been sitting here trying!) I sing "maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" and then a very small ee on the end of finish it off so it becomes my, the ee on the end doesn't sound like a really strong ee but it's definitely there, and if I miss it off I end up just singing maaaaaaaaaaa. Listen really carefully, and try singing it. It is a diphthong.
"oy" in boy is also a diphthong in standard English.
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Jul 8 2005, 11:46 AM)
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 8 2005, 06:01 AM)
Yes, indeed you might say lie, hi etc - but what would you do if you were singing it on a long note? Try it! You will find you have to change vowel sounds somewhere( because the 'y'is a diphthong! - see original post!)
And even if you think you say lie, my as single sounds... well, you really don't unless you speak a dialect... even if you say it really quickly there are two distinct sounds if you know what you're listening for. If you have ever learned other languages to a high level then you will know how different vowel sounds can be, and in English if I recall my TEFL training properly we have few really pure vowel sounds as compared to ie Italian... As Helen said, if you try to sing "my" on a long note, you end up with the two sounds - if you try to sing just one then you end up singing "maaaah" - to actually sing "my" the mouth moves quite distinctly to two different shapes. When I sing it (I've been sitting here trying!) I sing "maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" and then a very small ee on the end of finish it off so it becomes my, the ee on the end doesn't sound like a really strong ee but it's definitely there, and if I miss it off I end up just singing maaaaaaaaaaa. Listen really carefully, and try singing it. It is a diphthong.
"oy" in boy is also a diphthong in standard English.
And so is 'OW' - as in 'How now brown cow' . OW = ah+oo
QUOTE(erard @ Jul 7 2005, 05:11 PM)
Now I am totally ashamed- I (believe) I am better than that at writing tunes by ear in standard notation- obviously thinking I could translate it into solmization without misshap was hubris. I will have to console myself by using fancy words...
No worries, Erard! Even the experts make mistakes once in a while, it's supposed to be part of the creative process!
See? Even your English has improved QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 8 2005, 07:01 AM)
QUOTE(DomRUK @ Jul 7 2005, 02:41 PM)
QUOTE(HelenVJ @ Jul 7 2005, 07:41 AM)
Apart from anything else (!) I don't think the 'MY' etc thing would work for flattened sounds because it is a diphthong - ie 2 vowel sounds (Mah+ee) - and all the other vowel sounds used are 'pure' Italianate vowels. This is why solfa works well when people are singing different syllables simultaneously (as in part work, not just when they've gone wrong )
)Interesting comment - but I don't find I say "-y" like "Mah + ee", rather I say it as one simple sound, like "lie", "sigh", "bye", "hi" etc,. so I don't think there would be a difficulty there.
Hope Cyrilla recovers from under the cucumber eye-patches soon!
Yes, indeed you might say lie, hi etc - but what would you do if you were singing it on a long note? Try it! You will find you have to change vowel sounds somewhere( because the 'y'is a diphthong! - see original post!)
...and other people agree too.
...and so do I actually
(seem to be corrected for the moment - happy to agree it's very hard to find an alternative vowel for flattened notes other than (-aw) and the (-a)/(-ow) mix.)
However, have you noticed that RE (ray) is a dipthong as much as RY would be!!!
SHOCK WAVES REVERBERATE AROUND THE SOL-FA COMMUNITY FOR SEVERAL DECADES.........
We do our best to pronounce this pitch as 're' rather than 'ray'...
Well said, C. Until this thread started I thought a DipThong was an advanced qualification in the study of underwear....
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 9 2005, 06:02 PM)
We do our best to pronounce this pitch as 're' rather than 'ray'...
The first sound of MY is MA, so I guess we're back where we started. MA, MAW and LO it is.
All is at peace and well again.
I was always at peace cos I don't see the need to get so stewed up about these things!!
LOVE the DipThong joke, sis!
LOVE the DipThong joke, sis!
QUOTE(Bagpuss @ Jul 9 2005, 05:20 PM)
Well said, C. Until this thread started I thought a DipThong was an advanced qualification in the study of underwear....
Where does one go to study this advanced course in underwear Bagpuss? I'd quite like to have a DIPthong after my name. DIPthong CT ABRSM looks quite impressive don't you think?
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 9 2005, 05:02 PM)
We do our best to pronounce this pitch as 're' rather than 'ray'...
Re to rhyme with...? reee, or reehhh (if that makes sense?) - I always have said it "ray" though actually it does make sense that it should be a pure vowel sound.
Ah - rather as a French 're' - sorry, don't know how to do an acute accent on the 'e'!
Ahhh, ok. Yup, that's OK, if you tell me there's sposed to be an accent then I know what you mean! that's what I was rather unsuccessfully going for with "reh"
QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Jul 9 2005, 10:45 PM)
I was always at peace cos I don't see the need to get so stewed up about these things!!
Don't worry, no stewing,
just an interested teacher.
Thanks for your help.
<_< Whatever happened to the forum on Tonic Sol-Fa? I,like many others,was taught to sight read from sol-fa at primary school and I was not the brightest by a long chalk. For those who may find it useful,forget about the pedantics of pronunciation -just find a Modulator and practice. If it could work for me it should be a dawdle for anyone. Please bring back the forum-I need to learn more.
Yeah, what forum on tonic sol-fa? I only know of this thread started by me so far, There might have been others, but I'm not sure where they've gone to, being so long ago.
There might have been others, but I'm not sure where they've gone to, being so long ago.
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