Just a personal observation, having played the trumpet/trombone/clarinet and saxophone in the recent jazz ABRSM exams i can't help but feel the saxophone is the ultimate jazz instrument. It seems much easier to play in this genre than any other instrument. It's as if Adolpthe sax was ahead of his times when he invented this peculiar instument.

Absolutely.

Which is why it's my first instrument, and I love it.

However, the clarinet can top it in subtle ways, if you get a metal mouthpiece and very very very hard reeds. Unfortunately, it requires a special kind of player to get a note out on a setup like that, let alone a nice tone!

Ahhh the clarinet, it's magical and yet mystical at the same time. I love it to pieces. I know exactly what you mean. I learned clarinet after passing my grade 8 saxophone for a lark, its much harder but has such a lovely tone. Crossing registers is still prooving to be a problem.

I don't know why but every time someone mentions jazz in think of the saxophone!!!! maybe it could mean that i think its the ultimate jazz instrument!!!

Nat

ps- i love the clarinet though!!!

Hey folks, dont sound so bias (maybe I am too) but the sax does have a beautiful tone and feel however, if there is such a thing as the "ultimate" instrument, I would say the piano. Of all the instruments, it has the widest range of tones and the best instrument for dynamics and articulation especially in jazz. To all the horn players it may please you to know that although the piano is my instrument, my favourite jazz musician is a horn player, Miles Davis.

I'm also quite fond of the guitar, not so the electric however. I do like to hear a spanish guitar played well, it can sound fantastic in latin jazz.

On first look to many the Clarinet would be concieved to be a classical instrument because it has a mellow tone.

But put it into the hands of the likes of Benny Goodman and you realise what it can really do...it becomes an ultimate Jazz instrument!

I do love the sound of a sax when it comes to Jazz music and yes I would put it up there with the clarinet because they are not totally disimilar instruments in that clarinet players can usually migrate with relitive ease to the sax

Sax is more established within Jazz, which makes me go for the Clarinet as an ultimate because in the right hands it can change your perception of what the clarinet should be capable of. I do however love both instruments within jazz

I'd have to go for the sax. It's a classic...

hello!

well..... being a trumpeter, i would normally suggest the trumpet as the 'ultimate jazz' instrument however, i think the sax has the ultimate 'jazz' feel. trumpets are very close though.... has anyone heard booby shew play???? he's amazing.

as far as instruments go.... i really love the soprano sax. it like the cross between clarinet and sax. it's really distinct!!

jaime

I play the sax, and yes I think it's a gr8 jazz instrument!

Thinking of electric instruments i really like the fender Rhodes and the hammond organ. The Fender P-Bass(1951) has also played an important role in modern jazz i.e Jaco Pastorius.

I am not a great fan of the sax, and would rather listen to a trumpet any day. Being a pianist I am likely to say that the piano is the supreme king of instruments. Saxophonists know all their Bird and Coltrane licks, but have thier own individual sound, which is a mixture of Coltrane and Bird. Saxophonists often do what I call 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib' ie playing moslty semiquavers in thier solos. It doesn't matter what notes they play since they are so fast. An example of a saxophonist spoiling a tune can be found on the Album 'Kind Of Blue' by Miles Davis. On 'Freddie Freeloader' we have a very cool blues tune followed by an excellent paino solo by Wynton Kelly. Then we have Miles comming in with a cool, calm and collected trumpet solo, always finding the 'pretty' notes. And then Coltrane suddenly comes roaring in with his 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib' and ruins the whole thing. Also note how saxophinists think they have to play louder than everyone else. The only saxphonoist I really enjoy listening to is Dexter Gordon. His playing is very melodic and he doesnt do too much 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib'.

Now trumpet players I greatly admire. Its amazing the different range of sounds they can get out a twisted piece of brass. If I were a trumpet player i would use the mute and growling effects all the time becsause they're so cool.

It's about time the violin and other bowed instruments got some recognition in jazz!!! Why the hierachy of instruments? Surely jazz comes from within the person and the instrument is the vehicle...

OK, some vehicles are more immediately suitable but when you listen to people like Stuff Smith and other jazz violin greats, this sort of discuusion becomes a bit silly, and just helps to reinforce unnecessary prejudices.

Think of the sound of a saxophone played by a second-rate jazzer, and the listen to Stuff - is the instrument really so crucial?

I have a friend who's a fantastic jazz banjo player for goodness sake!

QUOTE (Duke @ May 8 2004, 11:57 AM)

I am not a great fan of the sax, and would rather listen to a trumpet any day. Being a pianist I am likely to say that the piano is the supreme king of instruments. Saxophonists know all their Bird and Coltrane licks, but have thier own individual sound, which is  a mixture of Coltrane and Bird. Saxophonists often do what I call 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib' ie playing moslty semiquavers in thier solos. It doesn't matter what notes they play since they are so fast. An example of a saxophonist spoiling a tune can be found on the Album 'Kind Of Blue' by Miles Davis. On 'Freddie Freeloader' we have a very cool blues tune followed by an excellent paino solo by Wynton Kelly. Then we have Miles comming in with a cool, calm and collected trumpet solo, always finding the 'pretty' notes. And then Coltrane suddenly comes roaring in with his 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib' and ruins the whole thing. Also note how saxophinists think they have to play louder than everyone else. The only saxphonoist I really  enjoy listening to is Dexter Gordon. His playing is very melodic and he doesnt do too much 'dibblelileobbleubbleaddleibbleiblib'. Now trumpet players I greatly admire. Its amazing the different range of sounds they can get out  a twisted piece of brass. If I were a trumpet player i would use the mute and growling effects all the time becsause they're so cool.

Then I think you're very unexperienced with listening to Jazz.

"Saxophonist know all their Bird and Coltrane licks' - I wouldn't know a bird or coltrane lick if it hit me in the face, and I cn play jazz. And I have an original sound but it's definitely nothing like either of them.

As for more information - Saxophones can growl, not just trumpets, and they are just about as equally versatile.

Now, go and listen to a wide range of jazz instead of just a few things, before you make another reply.

Hi Violinia, i think the problem with the violin is that it does'nt have enough major jazz exponents to have made an impact into what we percieve as mainstream jazz. The violin entered jazz by a completely different route to say the sax or trombone even, the fiddle being at the turn of 20th century an essential element of the black string band (before being ousted by the harmonica/Blues harp) and vaudeville. Having said that their have been some very fine jazz violinists-Grappelli,Eddie South, Michel Warlop to name but a few, but to be truthful with you to most jazz listeners it's unlikely they would even know the names i've mentioned with the exception Stephane Grappelli and maybe Joe Venuti.
Like a number of other jazz instruments the violin became marginalised(Clarinet/Cornet/Trombone included here). I think the trombone made a come back into the Be-Bop scene when a few God like players showed what was possible i'm referring to players like J J Johnson and Frank Rossolino.

Duke you make an excellant point about sax players, some totally loose their way by playing so fast you no longer hear what they are doing. Louis Armstrong played at times so simple e.g 'We have all the time in the world' yet that simple trumpet solo is fixed in mind till the day i die. Some sax players could do with rethinking about what they are communicating when they play.

Just a thought, regarding Dexter Gordon i have 2 of his albums -'GO!' and 'Our man in Paris', my favourite track being 'Willow weep for me' which sounds like a 12 bar blues, Dexter has maybe the most unique sound i have ever come across. Any idea what his set up was? I'm referring to his mouthpiece and instrument.

As usual I find Davidmusic's responses enlightening and to the point. I don't know Duke's experience with listening to and studying jazz anyway, from his comments I can safely say not very much. Does Duke know that the "kind Of Blue" album, is the STANDARD jazz album when it comes to improvisation and modal playing? In fact that album is used as a source in jazz courses in many universities and other jazz studies; go do the research. There is nothing dibble..(and all the other gibbersish) about the sax solos of Coltrane and "cannonball" on that album or any other. I am a jazz pianist but my experience and study of jazz gives me the appreciation for the Melodic Modulation and Technic used in those solos. As DavidMusic suggests, I think you should go back and listen some more, this time analytically; study some theory and if you can, get the text on "Kind Of Blue" then come back and talk to us.

PHEW!!!! It looks like I've offended some people here! Its clear that people did not pick on the hint of a joke in my post. Partly what I was going on about was 'taste'. I know that saxophonists have taken the lead in jazz most of the time and I don't deny that they were fantastic players and yes Kind of blue is a STANDARD jazz album. However, I am just not too keen on listening to sax solos very much. My teacher (who is both a saxophonist and pianist) did say thay saxophonists tend to do more doubletime soloing than other instruments.

I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone here.

I don't know what to say to these accusations that i have little kowledge or listening experience. Last time I checked I owned 51 jazz albums of one kind or another. I try and do at least one transcription a week (though of pianists). I have tried learning some solo's from the Bird omnibook but they don't seem to work on piano that well (or with me playing them anyway)

I feel I ought to apologies for my rash comment about saxophinists. Sonny Rollins is another that i don't mind listening to either.

Tenorclef - have you heard Dexter Gordons recording of 'A Night In Tunisia'? Its the best one of that peice that I have heard.

Yeah 'A Night in Tunisia' on Our Man in Paris, a great track. Hmmm can you imagine fusing that track with Duke Ellington's 'Caravan'. Would'nt that be interesting.

It's ok Duke, I personally was not offended, just thought it prudent to set the record straight theoretically and "defend" my favorite album. Maybe I can throw something your way too, last time I checked (mid 70's) my count was a little over 500 albums, not to count the number of 45's which I haven't even attempted. No offence taken; lets all listen and enjoy!!!

And my music collection consists entirely of mix tapes and mix CDs, when it comes to Jazz, so I can't say I actually have a whole album at all!

Oh, except for "The Best Jazz Album in the world ever"

Tenor Clef - Do you know who the pianist is on 'Our man in paris'?. I have a feeling its Bud Powell.

You are correct Duke it is Bud Powell on Keys. I love the old quartet stuff, whether its sax, trumpet or bone. Not so keen on the later far out stuff though.

David, for somebody who professes to love jazz as much as you do, it seems a little odd for you to say you don't possess a single pre-recorded jazz CD, when you can pick up some great stuff these days for £2.99!!!

I find myself buying these cheap CD's almost every week - there's some fantastic stuff out there. Why don't you go and buy it?! Or do you live out in the sticks and miles from a shop?

WARNING: Do NOT buy jazz CD's from 'The Works' . They may seem tempting what with being only 2 quid but they are deceptive:

1. They are generally old recordings that arn't pleasent to listen to but even if you are a vintage fan then:

2. You wouldn't believe it but they've made these recordings worse than they actually are! I have bought no less than 5 of these Cd's. I have some of the same recordings on other Cd's and the tracks from the the works are always slowed down and a tone lower than they sould be.

This is true and there are also some awful live recordings I've bought, not realising they're live. But you've only lost three quid and there's plenty of surprisingly good stuff out there for three quid. There's also a lot of great stuff to be had for five or six quid. I reckon it's worth the wastage.

Erm, I'm almost too terrified to put a most on here, seeing as I know so little about jazz, and everyone else seems to know so much !!

But, going back to the original topic of this thread, I couldn't believe no-one had mentioned the flute as a jazz instrument! I've always enjoyed playing jazz on flute, and although I wouldn't dare to say it was the ultimate jazz instrument, I feel it works quite well.

Perhaps someone better educated than myself could explain how the flute fits into jazz and why it so 'obviously' isn't the ultimate jazz instrument!!!

I think that jazz flautists are usaully saxophonists as well and are usually expected to double on it. I personally think the flute has a very shady sound in jazz, especially when its used along side a muted trumpet.

Possibly because you can't bend the note with a flute (unless I'm mistaken and I'm no flautust so I could be!). Think of all the non-chord instruments out there playing jazz, and you can bend the note with all of them, I think.

I did mean 'shady' as in 'cool' in a positive way. A jazz flutist does have a very distinct sound.

Distinct maybe but a bit monotonous in the end, perhaps. Also the range is a bit high for variety, maybe, but no offence to aspiring jazz flautists!!!

The flute as a jazz instrument was almost unheard of until around the 1950's and this was because certain sax players wanted to double on something different. The classic example was Eric Dolphy who was also a fine bass clarinet player as well. The main problem with the flute was its lack of projection which was less of a problem when bands started to rely more heavily on amplification and PA's. I would have thought most sax players double on clarinet than flute. I double on trombone which i guess is not the norm but can play several related instruments.

You can bend a note on the flute, but it's a very 'dodgy' manouver!

Thanks for enlightening me.

TRUMPET! TRUMPET! TRUMPET!

lol,


fae

Sheilz

Well i decided to add a poll to this subject, see what comes out at number 1.

I always think about the saxophone when someone mentions jazz. I have seen someone playing the penny whistle with jazz music before though!!

QUOTE (tamsin @ May 15 2004, 01:30 PM)

But, going back to the original topic of this thread, I couldn't believe no-one had mentioned the flute as a jazz instrument! I've always enjoyed playing jazz on flute, and although I wouldn't dare to say it was the ultimate jazz instrument, I feel it works quite well.

I've always wanted to try different types of music on the flute! Can anyone recommend any good jazz pieces that are around grade 4?

Sorry, I never played much till grade 6, um anyone else?

I wouldn't mind finding a few simplish peicces for solo flute myself...

Flute jazz pieces: you could try Russell Stokes Easy Jazz Singles (Gr 1-5), More easy Jazz Singles (Gr 1-5) and Jazz Singles (Grade4-7). These are all for solo flute. Another good book for solo flute is James Rae's 40 Modern Studies. If you can afford it, go for Malcolm Miles's Jazz Routes, which comes with a CD. 'Transformation' is on the new Grade 4 syllabus.

thanks, I'm scribbling these down and will have a look next time i visit my local music shop. Might not be for a while though due to revision confinement and total lack of finances.

I hate being a broke, jobless, teenager! Roll on EMA.

Thanks Andante in C! I'll have a look for them next time I go to a music shop.

Right, I've been struggling to pin down this song in my head for a few weeks, but listen to Nelson Rangell's Rainbow Seeker - the first time I listened to this it was a minute before I suddenly realised it was a flute (I wasn't expected it as he's a saxophonist mmost of the time) - he plays the instrument like a saxophone and it reminds anyone that the flute is quite capable as a jazz instrument

How 'bout 'voice' as the ultimate jazz instrument?

You're damn right, but it's a little vague. What is 'real' jazz singing?

Billy Holiday ... Ella Fitzgerald ....

QUOTE (Natalie @ Mar 28 2004, 01:48 PM)

I don't know why but every time someone mentions jazz in think of the saxophone!!!! maybe it could mean that i think its the ultimate jazz instrument!!!

that was what i was thinking!!

maybe because the majority of jazz songs use the saxaphone as the main instrument...