Sometimes it seems when learning a new piece that repition defeats the purpose of learning

I've been working on "Loch Lomond" - Alfred's book 2 for sometime now and finally thought that I had gotten it. Yesterday when I started to play it, my fingers if they could talk would have said "enough already", so I went on to another piece - Chopin's easy Waltz in a minor.

Has anyone reached the same point in their practice sessions, and do you have solutions? Thanks

Easy as far as Chopin is concerned is a misnomer - I had a ballet tearch who loved Chopin and Chopin was the only music he would allow to be played for class. Tricky music - he had a great accompianist who able "play" with the tempo so we could do the center floor exercises.

im wondering about that also(excuse me for being posting here by the age of 16)
i m not sure whether practise can be overdone or not?3 or 4 hours per day..!!for violin!!begginer for me.

i started to feel pain and my arms felt tired too.wif just a half an hour practise.what's going on ??i have make sure that my posture is right.hm....but my teacher told me before that the violin posture is a bit ''abnormal''.the need ot bending our arms and wrist on the string board/etc/

The posture for violin is so unnatural you should not do much if you are a beginner, or at least split it into 20 mins sessions with long breaks in between to relax the muscles.

If you feel ANY discomfort or pain the stop immediately, you could do lasting damage otherwise.

Yes, yes, yes! You can overpractise so do please be careful! Our girl practised too much at one point in her eagerness to acquire a particular skill and her fingers really hurt. We had no idea it was over-practice until we called her teacher and said she cannot come for lesson as her fingers feel this way and he told us she must have over-practised! Told her to take it easy. Luckily, in her case, no lasting damage.

I find it is very easy to over-practice. I believe it is always best to not push yourself to the limit everyday. I think it is best to stop practicing at a point where you think you can do a little more. Leave a bit in reserve.

Although when you want to become a good musician, it is hard to discipline yourself that less is more. I sometimes want to practice but I know that I have done enough for the day so it will be pointless.

Shelton

A good teacher should recognise when a piece is causing too much stress and then go on to something else.

When you learn a difficult piece/something very new, then your fingers and brain are working hard to assimilate this new stimulus and often need time to do this.


Ask yourself "Why do we need to sleep?" Seriously though, ask a biologist/scientist whatever and they will say "Well, we know that new neurone pathways are being formed in the brain,....."

You need rest for your body to absorb all the stimuli and to activate the appropriate nerves for the next time.

I first encountered this phenomenon years ago when learning classical guitar. I found it so difficult and didn't touch it for months. When I picked it up again, I found that I was able to play even better than before.

Your body needs rest and time to absorb all the information going from your brain to your fingers etc. During this time the new neuron pathways are being formed.

Go for one week without touching or thinking about your instrument.

Steve

Also remember the build-up of lactic acid in the muscles which accounts for fatigue. You must give it time to clear and the muscle replacement take place, substantially so or you'll start in disrepair the next day.

Rest, water via the blood, relax the affected muscles as best you can.

I think the violin and viola pose particular problems. New players aren't used to the position, holding the instrument, extending the arm, hand reaching round, so fatigue will set in early.

Overpractice happens but it's difficult to judge. One has to persevere with a little fatigue but not overdo it. There were times when I stopped playing to find that my left wrist would hurt briefly turning into a more normal position. So did the outer knuckle (is it) of that wrist and stretching my little finger out gave a noticeable twinge. Before we get to the stiff neck!

I agree with Janexxx - do smaller sessions with long breaks between. Once you judge a suitable amount add a few minutes each week.

No doubt wind instruments pose their own problems like holding the embochure for long periods which can't be comfortable!

I do 20 mins sessions with at least 15 min break in between. I usually have 3 or 4 pieces to work on so I can swap between. I think it's good to learn a few at a time as I'm less likely to get bored.

I read somewhere that learning is best assimilated if you sleep after a learning session. So maybe we should practise for 20 mins sessions with a 15 min snooze between each one.

I really think that in all this is a very important message that should be explored further. The importance of sleep or even a break of days or weeks can be beneficial. When, why and for how long is open to discussion and will probably vary from person to person.

A 10 min practice for one person may be enough. Someone else may cope with 2 hours, or even more. It's very individual.

I know that I'm more the 10 min sort of person.

Last week I was playing my clarinet late and was furious because there was obviously a problem with the pads or tenon cork (what holds the joints together).

Then I decided it must be the barrel or mouthpiece. It was all wrong. A complete disaster. Nothing for it but use the clarinet for starting the barbecue!

The next evening it played like a dream. I'd been tired and hadn't realised it. Stressed, tense etc. In those situations, practising is just counter-productive.

Of course, in the famous David Pino book of Clarinet playing, 'Relaxation' is the most important factor, coming before tone production, embouchure etc.

I should have know.

So why aren't I in bed?

Steve

What do you think of the Alfred's book ?
I've been working my way through book 1 which I have mercifully nearly finished.
I've found that some of the arrangements in it are a bit unmusical (the worst was Little brown jug)
I've also been using another book I think was called Arnold's which is a bit less chordy, the pieces are more difficult but better tunes.

[quote=ianfiat,Jul 19 2005, 06:05 AM]
[quote=suzym,Jul 13 2005, 01:15 PM]Sometimes it seems when learning a new piece that repition defeats the purpose of learning

I've been working on "Loch Lomond" - Alfred's book 2 for sometime now and finally thought that I had  gotten it.  Yesterday when I started to play it, my fingers if they could talk would have said "enough already", so I went on to another piece - Chopin's easy Waltz in a minor.

Has anyone reached the same point in their practice sessions, and do you have solutions?  Thanks 

Easy as far as Chopin is concerned is a misnomer - I had a ballet tearch who loved Chopin and Chopin was the only music he would allow to be played for class.  Tricky music - he had a great accompianist who able "play" with the tempo so we could do the center floor exercises.

[/quote]

I think you answered your own question. Listen to your fingers and move on to another piece for a while!

I have mixed feelings about the Alfred Book. Musetta's Waltz (Basic Adult Piano Course - Level Two) it begins ok then there is some kind of filler and jumps to the end of the aria. This drove me crazy - it really makes it harder to learn when you "hear" what's not written. I can understand making it easier for beginners to play but at least simplify the whole piece - not bits of this and bits of that. This bothers me. I agree with you that some of the arrangements leave much to be desired -guess it shows that we must be making progress.

Other than that I guess it's ok- it's good for chord structure and some technical things and there are some fun pieces - my teacher has added some Bach, Fur Elise and Chopin's Easy Walt in a minor, so Alfred has become a supplement. I guess any of these adult method books have theirs pros and cons.