Greetings;
I have been considering ommitting certain students from music instruction as they come to me based on a pre-test. I am curious about your thoughts.
I'm guessing this thought might meet some resistance since it appears most music teachers like myself are idealist. But let's look into the details of this situation carefully.
Here is the situation.
I have found that even within the same siblings - one student may have a good ear but the other will not be able to discern if one pitch is higher than the other.
For example you can play a C and a G and the student will not be able to tell which one is higher and which one is lower. Ask them 10 times and they'll score a 50/50 - which means they are guessing. (of course this is after you do a demonstration to show that middle C is lower than G above middle C).
If you play 5 pitches in ascending order, they cannot tell you if the note is going up or down.
The ear helps them to learn pieces faster - since they have no auditory reference to the music they learn they are more likely to forget it and have a harder time remember it etc etc.
In cases like this I was thinking it might be better to notify the students
Sincerely Yours,
Stephen Sutherland
Full Version: Thoughts On Eliminating Students With A Pre-test
Somtimes it is a language problem.. not that english is a strange language but that the labels 'high' and 'low' in terms of pitch are foreign to people (can be adults too).
Just demonstrating which is which might not be enough.. they will need time to get to understand these strange concepts first.
It is possible that someone starting out with this difficulty could turn out to be quite a competent musician with the right encouragement.
And the sense of achievement when you realise you have enabled someone who started with what seemed to be no musical awareness whatsoever to play even the simplest things with some expression is wonderful.
Just demonstrating which is which might not be enough.. they will need time to get to understand these strange concepts first.
It is possible that someone starting out with this difficulty could turn out to be quite a competent musician with the right encouragement.
And the sense of achievement when you realise you have enabled someone who started with what seemed to be no musical awareness whatsoever to play even the simplest things with some expression is wonderful.
I handle this by giving all young beginners an introductory course.
Often it's just a matter of unfamiliarity, as Sbhoa suggested; it isn't always lack of aural ability. And yes, it can be a language problem. Five lessons in will usually give you the picture you need if you plan them carefully.
Often it's just a matter of unfamiliarity, as Sbhoa suggested; it isn't always lack of aural ability. And yes, it can be a language problem. Five lessons in will usually give you the picture you need if you plan them carefully.
Each teacher decides (rightly in my view) how they want to set up their teaching practice, who and what they'll teach.
For myself I don't pre-select my pupils - I take whoever comes off my waiting list next and I see what I can make of them. Some come almost pre-programmed as musicians and excel at virtually anything I ask of them. They sing like a dream, play equally well, can do aural, theory - the complete package.
Others (the majority) often seem to have little about them musically and come from homes where the only music that's heard is the local commercial pop station if you're lucky. They can't/won't sing, often have poor language skills to express themselves and struggle with just about anything you give them.
I have to say, however, that the latter are some of the most rewarding pupils I teach because when they do do well, they and I are totally thrilled. I ask the best of all my pupils and, with a few exceptions, they respond. Only twice in 30+ years of teaching have I asked a pupil to leave because I felt (after many months/years of trying) they really were wasting their time, my time and their parent's money. One, however, did find another teacher and do well in the end. That's fine because sometimes the pupil/teacher relationship just isn't working.
Yes, my gifted pupils keep me on my toes and I relish the challenges they bring but the joy of showing someone (child or adult) a little of the broad spectrum we call music and having them respond is reward way beyond anything financial for me.
As I said at the start, each to their own. For myself, I like teaching this way but others may want to pre-select and that's OK in my book. However, if you do so, you just might turn someone away from music who could have made a go of it with some encouragement but it's always a bit of a gamble
For myself I don't pre-select my pupils - I take whoever comes off my waiting list next and I see what I can make of them. Some come almost pre-programmed as musicians and excel at virtually anything I ask of them. They sing like a dream, play equally well, can do aural, theory - the complete package.
Others (the majority) often seem to have little about them musically and come from homes where the only music that's heard is the local commercial pop station if you're lucky. They can't/won't sing, often have poor language skills to express themselves and struggle with just about anything you give them.
I have to say, however, that the latter are some of the most rewarding pupils I teach because when they do do well, they and I are totally thrilled. I ask the best of all my pupils and, with a few exceptions, they respond. Only twice in 30+ years of teaching have I asked a pupil to leave because I felt (after many months/years of trying) they really were wasting their time, my time and their parent's money. One, however, did find another teacher and do well in the end. That's fine because sometimes the pupil/teacher relationship just isn't working.
Yes, my gifted pupils keep me on my toes and I relish the challenges they bring but the joy of showing someone (child or adult) a little of the broad spectrum we call music and having them respond is reward way beyond anything financial for me.
As I said at the start, each to their own. For myself, I like teaching this way but others may want to pre-select and that's OK in my book. However, if you do so, you just might turn someone away from music who could have made a go of it with some encouragement but it's always a bit of a gamble
Thanks for the response;
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
QUOTE(stephensutherland @ Jul 15 2005, 07:09 PM)
Thanks for the response;
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
I have an 8 year old at the moment who is not too sure about high and low.
And not just the difference between 2 notes within an octave either...
For keyboard geography I ask for thing like.. all the As starting with the lowest: A high E..that sort of stuff.
She can go to the wrong end of the piano and not know even if I repeat stressing 'high' or 'low'. I just gently ask 'Are you sure?'
One day I am sure it will click with her.
QUOTE(sbhoa @ Jul 15 2005, 07:26 PM)
QUOTE(stephensutherland @ Jul 15 2005, 07:09 PM)
Thanks for the response;
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
Before the discussions get too far - i just want to clarify something.
I'm not referring to a student's ability to sing. Because I know there are some cases where even people with absolute pitch are unable to sing in tune.
I was specifically talking about students who cannot discern if a pitch was higher or lower even if you played up and down the scale. - and after the careful explanation and examples.
Has anyone hear had any experience teaching a student who when you played 2 notes , could not (after explanations and example) tell which is higher and which is lower ?
Stephen
I have an 8 year old at the moment who is not too sure about high and low.
And not just the difference between 2 notes within an octave either...
For keyboard geography I ask for thing like.. all the As starting with the lowest: A high E..that sort of stuff.
She can go to the wrong end of the piano and not know even if I repeat stressing 'high' or 'low'. I just gently ask 'Are you sure?'
One day I am sure it will click with her.
I have one who insists she learnt high and low the other way round!
I don't select pupils at all - if they're keen to try then I'm willing to teach them which is why I have a lot of average ability pupils for whom playing is just fun, and progress is often slow. I sometimes look with envy on other teachers' AB exam result records but if I selected only the able pupils and those I wanted to teach by ability criteria then I would get the same results! I often think teaching really able pupils is easy - it's the less able ones who are the real challenge! I do a selection of games/tests in the first lesson just so I know what the pupil will be like but I never reject them if they have difficulties.
QUOTE(oboist @ Jul 15 2005, 06:57 PM)
I have to say, however, that the latter are some of the most rewarding pupils I teach because when they do do well, they and I are totally thrilled. I ask the best of all my pupils and, with a few exceptions, they respond. Only twice in 30+ years of teaching have I asked a pupil to leave because I felt (after many months/years of trying) they really were wasting their time, my time and their parent's money. One, however, did find another teacher and do well in the end. That's fine because sometimes the pupil/teacher relationship just isn't working.
What a great philosophy - I salute you.
As a parent, I saw this problem with my kids...and yet, the tone deaf child recently seems to be taking quite a lot of pleasure in singing undemanding songs in a tuneful way, and my jaw hit the ground when a family friend commented on his wonderful sense of rhythm 
...it was his total inability to reproduce a clapped rhythm that had his music teacher throwing things at him.
As a language teacher, I am more and more aware of how finely differentiated aural skills are - the person who hears and acts on aural information may not be the first one to reproduce what was heard accurately, and vice versa, the person who has stunning accuracy in reproduction sometimes seems unable to make sense out of all those sounds! (Of course this refers to language, not music).
Going back to my son, I think that part of the problem was that he was not a talker, and physically not well-coordinated (why do those two things so often go together?). Perhaps he could hear the a rhythm or pitch sequence (or very likely it was too hard for him at that age), but as for simultaneously processing his teacher's verbal instructions and making an accurate physical response at the same time....that was certainly not possible when he felt so aware of not being up to expectations.
So, yes, an encouraging teacher could have given him an enjoyment of music (he likes big band swing, for some reason!); but also, yes, he was never likely to become an outstanding performer. I guess the decision is up to each music teacher, but it's worth remembering that children are developing rapidly from day to day, and are also much more uneven in their abilities than adults.
...it was his total inability to reproduce a clapped rhythm that had his music teacher throwing things at him.As a language teacher, I am more and more aware of how finely differentiated aural skills are - the person who hears and acts on aural information may not be the first one to reproduce what was heard accurately, and vice versa, the person who has stunning accuracy in reproduction sometimes seems unable to make sense out of all those sounds! (Of course this refers to language, not music).
Going back to my son, I think that part of the problem was that he was not a talker, and physically not well-coordinated (why do those two things so often go together?). Perhaps he could hear the a rhythm or pitch sequence (or very likely it was too hard for him at that age), but as for simultaneously processing his teacher's verbal instructions and making an accurate physical response at the same time....that was certainly not possible when he felt so aware of not being up to expectations.
So, yes, an encouraging teacher could have given him an enjoyment of music (he likes big band swing, for some reason!); but also, yes, he was never likely to become an outstanding performer. I guess the decision is up to each music teacher, but it's worth remembering that children are developing rapidly from day to day, and are also much more uneven in their abilities than adults.
You have to give a child a chance because you just do not know how they will turn out.
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
I don't pre-select my pupils, except in the sense that if a vacancy comes up and the sibling of someone I already teach is on the waiting list, I'm more likely to offer the vacancy to that sibling rather than to a family I don't know.
Each new pupil is like being given a present - I find it really exciting getting to know them, seeing what they can do, what makes them 'tick' etc. And it's like a bonus prize when they really take off right from the start!
I've had several pupils over the years who wouldn't have got through a 'pre-testing' strategy but who nevertheless have gone on to become excellent musicians - sometimes it can take years before they blossom - but as others have said, that is one of the best rewards one can have!
Each new pupil is like being given a present - I find it really exciting getting to know them, seeing what they can do, what makes them 'tick' etc. And it's like a bonus prize when they really take off right from the start!
I've had several pupils over the years who wouldn't have got through a 'pre-testing' strategy but who nevertheless have gone on to become excellent musicians - sometimes it can take years before they blossom - but as others have said, that is one of the best rewards one can have!
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Jul 16 2005, 12:00 AM)
You have to give a child a chance because you just do not know how they will turn out.
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
what did you do to teach hopeless 5 years old children, if u dont mind??
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Jul 15 2005, 10:06 PM)
QUOTE(oboist @ Jul 15 2005, 06:57 PM)
I have to say, however, that the latter are some of the most rewarding pupils I teach because when they do do well, they and I are totally thrilled. I ask the best of all my pupils and, with a few exceptions, they respond. Only twice in 30+ years of teaching have I asked a pupil to leave because I felt (after many months/years of trying) they really were wasting their time, my time and their parent's money. One, however, did find another teacher and do well in the end. That's fine because sometimes the pupil/teacher relationship just isn't working.
What a great philosophy - I salute you.
Me, too.
QUOTE
I don't pre-select my pupils, except in the sense that if a vacancy comes up and the sibling of someone I already teach is on the waiting list, I'm more likely to offer the vacancy to that sibling rather than to a family I don't know.
Each new pupil is like being given a present - I find it really exciting getting to know them, seeing what they can do, what makes them 'tick' etc
Each new pupil is like being given a present - I find it really exciting getting to know them, seeing what they can do, what makes them 'tick' etc
Yes - I agree with you there Jo. I like the present analogy. It's always fascinating getting to know each individual.
In practice, I don't normally refuse anyone on the grounds of current ability. I sometimes advise a wait if I feel a child is not ready to benefit from lessons. And yes, if vacancies are few, I'd be more likely to take a child from a family I knew - (unless they were already causing me hassle !!)
I've never used a pre-test as to do so would be favouritist and elitist and totally go against my philosophy of "everyone deserves a chance to develop their musical skills"
A very good point. I know from my own experience that I favour those pupils who have a good level of self-motivation which is important to become a good musician as practicing is a very isolated activity. Those pupils constantly waiting to be spoon-fed and waiting for the teacher to wave their magic wand and make them good players are the most difficult to teach.
Gae
QUOTE
 That's fine because sometimes the pupil/teacher relationship just isn't working
A very good point. I know from my own experience that I favour those pupils who have a good level of self-motivation which is important to become a good musician as practicing is a very isolated activity. Those pupils constantly waiting to be spoon-fed and waiting for the teacher to wave their magic wand and make them good players are the most difficult to teach.
Gae
QUOTE(sania @ Jul 16 2005, 06:54 AM)
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Jul 16 2005, 12:00 AM)
You have to give a child a chance because you just do not know how they will turn out.
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
what did you do to teach hopeless 5 years old children, if u dont mind??
Sorry not to reply before, sania; I have not been following this thread.
I have enormous patience with children and will not give up on them until they give up on me. David was happy with what he produced, even though it was textually and musically hopelessly inaccurate. I just gave him loads of elementary stuff and hoped for the best.
He blossomed at 7 because his developing brain suddenly hard-wired the connections it needed to contact his talent.
Steve
Imagine, having 2 kids in the same family - one's clearly musical, the other have poor ears and cannot hear any differences/intervals less than 2/3 tones. Imagine how one feels if the other kid gets the chance to learn music after the pre-test whereas the other don't bec he failed it! He'll think of himself as a failure for the rest of his life. Whose doing was it? Some ambitious teacher who only wants, not motivated students but potentially talented ones. Sad.
Pre-tests are only useful if they are constructive from the child's point of view, in that, they serve as a useful device to get the teacher started in a certain way or at a certain pace and also gives the parent with high hopes/expectations some semblance of reality. Not to exclude a child.
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
Pre-tests are only useful if they are constructive from the child's point of view, in that, they serve as a useful device to get the teacher started in a certain way or at a certain pace and also gives the parent with high hopes/expectations some semblance of reality. Not to exclude a child.
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 17 2005, 10:33 AM)
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
Tess, I think exactly the opposite is the case. Adult learners tend to be a lot more nervous, a lot more sensitive to criticism and therefore a lot thinner-skinned than children. And we expect negative responses a lot more than children do.
Certainly, my consultation lessons with my singing teacher (two-and-a-half years ago now) and (more recently) my piano teacher were horribly nerve-wracking. I was fully expecting to be told each time that I was a clueless incompetent well beyond their help.....and each time was deeply relieved to be told that I was redeemable
I still find myself apologising at the start of each lesson for the progress I haven't made and the targets I haven't achieved - even though both teachers have told me to stop it!
Cheers
Katyjay
QUOTE(katyjay @ Jul 17 2005, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 17 2005, 10:33 AM)
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
And we expect negative responses a lot more than children do.
I still find myself apologising at the start of each lesson for the progress I haven't made and the targets I haven't achieved - even though both teachers have told me to stop it!
Cheers
Katyjay
That is absolutely typical of my adults too. They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them!!!
Steve
I agree 100%. I have a post-16 teaching qualification, and this was emphasised very strongly during the course. I know from my own experience that even asking about piano lessons as an adult took a huge amount of courage.
Quite right, folks, adults are sensitive, too. Find myself apologising to my driving instructor for every little error all the time! 
Sometimes I think we should 'pre-test' the parent rather than the child!! (Though quite what form the test would take I have no idea!!!!) Maybe something along the lines of a questionnaire like
Why does your child want to take piano lessons?
Why do YOU want your child to take piano lessons?
What other activities does your child do?
What do you want your child to achieve in lessons?
How often do you think your child should practise?
How will you ensure that your child practises regularly?
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
And if you don't like any of the answers, or the parent comes across too pushy, refuse the pupil!!!!
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
Why does your child want to take piano lessons?
Why do YOU want your child to take piano lessons?
What other activities does your child do?
What do you want your child to achieve in lessons?
How often do you think your child should practise?
How will you ensure that your child practises regularly?
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
And if you don't like any of the answers, or the parent comes across too pushy, refuse the pupil!!!!
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
QUOTE(chocolatedog @ Jul 17 2005, 07:20 PM)
Sometimes I think we should 'pre-test' the parent rather than the child!! (Though quite what form the test would take I have no idea!!!!) Maybe something along the lines of a questionnaire like
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
HE HE HE
Seriously, not kidding, haven't you heard, one teacher on this forum has shared that one parent expected the kid to learn to play the real thing (the piano) by practising on a tiny mini keyboard even though they could well afford a piano? It's not a pre-test as such but then it's not a crime to ask, is it?
QUOTE(chocolatedog @ Jul 17 2005, 07:20 PM)
Sometimes I think we should 'pre-test' the parent rather than the child!! (Though quite what form the test would take I have no idea!!!!) Maybe something along the lines of a questionnaire like
Why does your child want to take piano lessons?
Why do YOU want your child to take piano lessons?
What other activities does your child do?
What do you want your child to achieve in lessons?
How often do you think your child should practise?
How will you ensure that your child practises regularly?
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
And if you don't like any of the answers, or the parent comes across too pushy, refuse the pupil!!!!
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
Why does your child want to take piano lessons?
Why do YOU want your child to take piano lessons?
What other activities does your child do?
What do you want your child to achieve in lessons?
How often do you think your child should practise?
How will you ensure that your child practises regularly?
Where is the piano? Do you think this is a good place for it?(!)
And if you don't like any of the answers, or the parent comes across too pushy, refuse the pupil!!!!
Only kidding, but sometimes I wonder.............
I certainly do ask SOME of the above questions before they even get through the door !
I ask whose idea it is to have lessons, and what is available for the child to practise on. Some of the answers are - interesting !
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Jul 16 2005, 12:00 AM)
You have to give a child a chance because you just do not know how they will turn out.
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
I took on a 5 YEAR old, 25 years ago. He was hopeless - made everything up as he went along. Goodness only knows what made me stick with him.
Aged 7, something in his brain went 'click' and off he went. Unstopable. He has subsequently been a staff member at the Birmingham conservatoire and could play me off the stage in any competition anytime.
I learned a lot from that.
Steve
Totally agree - it's up to each individual I guess, but music is such a wonderful thing to be able to take part in, I'd hate to see any child simply told "you're not musical" - even if the child never gets to the dizzy heights of achievement, to be able to play something simple really well is a wonderful feeling, to be able to produce something of beauty... every child deserves a chance to do that.
QUOTE(katyjay @ Jul 17 2005, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 17 2005, 10:33 AM)
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
Tess, I think exactly the opposite is the case. Adult learners tend to be a lot more nervous, a lot more sensitive to criticism and therefore a lot thinner-skinned than children. And we expect negative responses a lot more than children do.
Certainly, my consultation lessons with my singing teacher (two-and-a-half years ago now) and (more recently) my piano teacher were horribly nerve-wracking. I was fully expecting to be told each time that I was a clueless incompetent well beyond their help.....and each time was deeply relieved to be told that I was redeemable
I still find myself apologising at the start of each lesson for the progress I haven't made and the targets I haven't achieved - even though both teachers have told me to stop it!
Well I guess I'm glad it ain't just me....!
Pre-testing the parents sounds like a GREAT idea!
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 17 2005, 09:21 PM)
and what is available for the child to practise on. Some of the answers are - interesting !
My final question when a new parent phones to book lessons always goes, "Now, I know this could sound like a really stupid question, but you do have a piano, don't you?"
Put like that, only the most thick-skinned fails to feel gormless after that if they do not have one.
On the other hand, it can cause them to question my sanity - "Well, obviously I have, or I wouldn't be calling."
I agree with sarah-flute - Every child deserves a chance to produce something of beauty... however unmusical ... you may think he is. If you have to pre-test, do so only to the parent and please do this thoroughly over the phone instead of testing the child's own musical/aural skills at your home and then possibly "failing" him.
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 18 2005, 12:31 PM)
I agree with sarah-flute - Every child deserves a chance to produce something of beauty... however unmusical ... you may think he is. If you have to pre-test, do so only to the parent and please do this thoroughly over the phone instead of testing the child's own musical/aural skills at your home and then possibly "failing" him.
I'm sure you don't imagine Tess that any teacher worthy of the name would give a child a pre-test or a few trial lessons and then tell him he had failed??
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 18 2005, 12:57 PM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 18 2005, 12:31 PM)
I agree with sarah-flute - Every child deserves a chance to produce something of beauty... however unmusical ... you may think he is. If you have to pre-test, do so only to the parent and please do this thoroughly over the phone instead of testing the child's own musical/aural skills at your home and then possibly "failing" him.Â
I'm sure you don't imagine Tess that any teacher worthy of the name would give a child a pre-test or a few trial lessons and then tell him he had failed??
Well things were certainly different back in the 50's.
My violin teacher gave each new potential pupil a sort of aural test at the first (trial) lesson. If they couldn't sing in tune or sing back a phrase she played, she recommended they took up piano, not violin.
Judging by the amount of aural work I have to do with some of mine, she may have had a good point. Just kidding, but - you know....
Violinia
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Jul 18 2005, 12:57 PM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 18 2005, 12:31 PM)
I agree with sarah-flute - Every child deserves a chance to produce something of beauty... however unmusical ... you may think he is. If you have to pre-test, do so only to the parent and please do this thoroughly over the phone instead of testing the child's own musical/aural skills at your home and then possibly "failing" him.Â
I'm sure you don't imagine Tess that any teacher worthy of the name would give a child a pre-test or a few trial lessons and then tell him he had failed??
YES, maggiemay, that is certainly what stephen was/is considering for those who are hopelessly "unmusical" when he started this thread. What else could he have on his mind, I ask you, then??? Read his posts above.
However, I'd assume that he's a reasonable man and by now, would have changed his mind.
I believe Violinia's teacher is ignorant, not abt music but abt kids. Lots of kids who cannot sing can play very well. Enthusiasm makes the difference! If the kid LOVES the violin, he WILL listen carefully at lessons, practise daily and will do very well indeed.
For example, my daughter could not sing at all before I taught her, only recently due to the encouraging posts I received from this very forum when I first joined and posted her peculiar problem. Her scales are perfect but her aurals? Hopeless! Very peculiar indeed. The ears seem not to be wired to the voice. At school, she would not qualify for subsidised violin lessons as she'd have failed the aural pre-test set by the borough. We requested a year ago but she did not get a place as demand exceeded supply. The following year when too many students wanted to learn violin again, we decided against submitting her to the pre-test and sought for a private teacher instead who incidentally does not pre-test (despite being such a brilliant teacher). She is now in her 10th month of violin from the scratch, practises sensibly (very little in the first term but now more but not too much) and is doing grade 4... all in less than a year.
Violinia's teacher would have excluded her from the joy of violin-playing.
For example, my daughter could not sing at all before I taught her, only recently due to the encouraging posts I received from this very forum when I first joined and posted her peculiar problem. Her scales are perfect but her aurals? Hopeless! Very peculiar indeed. The ears seem not to be wired to the voice. At school, she would not qualify for subsidised violin lessons as she'd have failed the aural pre-test set by the borough. We requested a year ago but she did not get a place as demand exceeded supply. The following year when too many students wanted to learn violin again, we decided against submitting her to the pre-test and sought for a private teacher instead who incidentally does not pre-test (despite being such a brilliant teacher). She is now in her 10th month of violin from the scratch, practises sensibly (very little in the first term but now more but not too much) and is doing grade 4... all in less than a year.
Violinia's teacher would have excluded her from the joy of violin-playing.
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Jul 18 2005, 12:05 PM)
Put like that, only the most thick-skinned fails to feel gormless after that if they do not have one.Â
QUOTE
On the other hand, it can cause them to question my sanity - "Well, obviously I have, or I wouldn't be calling."Â
well if they think insanity is a bad thing...
maggiemay - no, not a teacher worthy of the name...
sadly I suspect some do tell children or their parents exactly that!Violinia: I think I learned to sing in tune and how to sing back a phrase from my violin teacher... I don't know that I could sing particularly in tune when I was 7....
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Jul 18 2005, 04:48 PM)
well if they think insanity is a bad thing...
Nice one
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Jul 17 2005, 11:32 AM)
QUOTE(katyjay @ Jul 17 2005, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Jul 17 2005, 10:33 AM)
Don't know about adults though - these may be a lot more thick-skinned!
And we expect negative responses a lot more than children do.
I still find myself apologising at the start of each lesson for the progress I haven't made and the targets I haven't achieved - even though both teachers have told me to stop it!
Cheers
Katyjay
That is absolutely typical of my adults too. They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them!!!
Steve
As an adult learner can i just say how right this is. I recently took up the clarinet and it was probably one of the hardest things I have decided to do in recent years. My 9 year old daughter finally persuaded me bying taking it up herself and showing me how much joy she dirives from it.
I must admit to having concerns about pre-testing as like many I believe music and the ability to play/understand it should be open to all in society. (I suspect that says more about me than music though!)
However as can be seen there is a large cross section of teachers out there so maybe there is a teacher for everyone regardless of ability. I do have concerns that teaching of music in schools seems to be getting less this worries me as music is one of the basic joys in life!
[/quote]
That is absolutely typical of my adults too. They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them!!!
Steve
[/quote]
Sorry, I have to object to this.
I recently resumed piano after a long break, and was fortunate enough to find a really top-notch teacher who happened to have moved to the area.
I have very limited ability, I play because I love the music, I work hard at it, but realistically there is a limit to what I will ever achieve.
Top-notch teacher hardly ever praises. Why should she? She is a professional musician and has played with some of the very best.
But she has always given me her total attention in lessons, and shown me ways to practise. If occasionally she says, "yes that's better", or "you've done some good work there", I'm over the moon!
We're not all "fluffy bunnies".
Yes, I prefer a limit on the amount of praise too.
I find it hard to take a 'Well done' when I think I played pretty badly.
I find it hard to take a 'Well done' when I think I played pretty badly.
[quote=myth,Jul 19 2005, 05:35 PM]
[/quote]
That is absolutely typical of my adults too. They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them!!!
Steve
[/quote]
Sorry, I have to object to this.
I recently resumed piano after a long break, and was fortunate enough to find a really top-notch teacher who happened to have moved to the area.
I have very limited ability, I play because I love the music, I work hard at it, but realistically there is a limit to what I will ever achieve.
Top-notch teacher hardly ever praises. Why should she? She is a professional musician and has played with some of the very best.
But she has always given me her total attention in lessons, and shown me ways to practise. If occasionally she says, "yes that's better", or "you've done some good work there", I'm over the moon!
We're not all "fluffy bunnies".
[/quote]
I wish more were like you. Drip-feeding such encouragement is exhausting. The fact is, most adults do need it.
Object if you like. It does nothing to change the demands made on me by the adults I teach.
Steve
[/quote]
That is absolutely typical of my adults too. They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them!!!
Steve
[/quote]
Sorry, I have to object to this.
I recently resumed piano after a long break, and was fortunate enough to find a really top-notch teacher who happened to have moved to the area.
I have very limited ability, I play because I love the music, I work hard at it, but realistically there is a limit to what I will ever achieve.
Top-notch teacher hardly ever praises. Why should she? She is a professional musician and has played with some of the very best.
But she has always given me her total attention in lessons, and shown me ways to practise. If occasionally she says, "yes that's better", or "you've done some good work there", I'm over the moon!
We're not all "fluffy bunnies".
[/quote]
I wish more were like you.
Drip-feeding such encouragement is exhausting. The fact is, most adults do need it.Object if you like. It does nothing to change the demands made on me by the adults I teach.
Steve
No we don't need it. We are ADULTS.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 19 2005, 06:47 PM)
No we don't need it. We are ADULTS.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
I am not sure why you appear to be getting upset. I was only saying what my adult students need. Read back through this thread; a couple of other teachers said the same about theirs.
Professional teachers will adapt their teaching styles to suit the individual. I would give you a straight-from-the-hip response if you were one of my students; that is what you require. My current lot want a gentle approach, so that is what I give them. It does not mean they do not want correcting, guiding and improving. They simply want it doing gently.
You will find that many of us contributing to these posts have a lively sense of humour and enjoy the more absurd manifistations of humanity. We do not tend towards being dogmatic (with the exception of one particular thread). Those teachers among us commenting on the sympathy needs of our adult students were doing so in a light-hearted fashion.
I hope this helps you understand where we are coming from.
Steve
I would agree that adults are very much like younger pupils - the ones I teach are very unsure and unconfident and are always looking for reassurance. I won't tell them something was brilliant when it wasn't but I will encourage with as much praise as I can. They are usually extremely self-critical - the slightest mistake or hesitation will make them frustrated, and they get very nervous playing in front of another adult (i.e. me) so I do encourage a lot, and I don't think it makes me any less of a teacher. When I was a teenager I had a fantastic teacher who was sparing with praise so whenever he said 'good' I knew I'd really earned it but I was already advanced as a pianist, so it's a very different scenario to teaching beginners, whatever their age.
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 19 2005, 06:47 PM)
No we don't need it. We are ADULTS.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
Unfortunately top-notch teacher is moving away from the area, so I am going to have to find a new teacher. After what you have said, I am going to be suspicious.
I don't want facile "praise". I want good, honest, "recognize-where-you-are-coming-from" TEACHING.
Praise and honesty aren't mutually exclusive.
My teacher gives praise where praise is due and is really encouraging - which I personally need after music teachers in general and my A Level and piano teachers in particular being extremely discouraging and basically nasty to me when I was younger. However, he's also not at all slow to point out what needs improvement and how to improve, and he doesn't hand out praise just because "I need it" - he praises what's good and looks for positive things to say along with the things that need working on.
I agree 100% with Steve, chocolatedog and Sarah.
Sorry, I inadvertently started the discussion on teaching adult students. However, my daughter's teacher is a top-notch teacher and a perfectionist who teaches in a top-notch London conservatoire but he does praise her a lot whenever it is due but criticises only ever in a constructive way peppered with a light-hearted sense of humour. He's terribly meticulous but also very gentle. Why? Because every beginner regardless of age (and regardless of his/her motivation as my girl is extremely self-motivated with a sense of self-destiny that genuinely scares me even) need a lot of honest praise.
Praise and honesty is certainly not mutually exclusive!
Once a student is really advanced then depending on his/her temperament or motivation, such encouragement will still make a difference but maybe not needed/needed as much.
Sorry, I inadvertently started the discussion on teaching adult students. However, my daughter's teacher is a top-notch teacher and a perfectionist who teaches in a top-notch London conservatoire but he does praise her a lot whenever it is due but criticises only ever in a constructive way peppered with a light-hearted sense of humour. He's terribly meticulous but also very gentle. Why? Because every beginner regardless of age (and regardless of his/her motivation as my girl is extremely self-motivated with a sense of self-destiny that genuinely scares me even) need a lot of honest praise.
Praise and honesty is certainly not mutually exclusive!
Once a student is really advanced then depending on his/her temperament or motivation, such encouragement will still make a difference but maybe not needed/needed as much.
I think you're going off at a bit of a tangent here. I am happy that talented young musicians like Sarah and Tess' daughter get all the praise and encouragement they need, and I'm sure deserve. And of course praise can (and should) be honest.
But that isn't what I was trying to say. I'm talking about the learners (mainly adult) at the other end of the musical spectrum, down towards the no-hopers end. Isn't that what this thread is about? That's where I am.
Is it realistic to expect teachers to praise at every lesson? If I don't get praise, I can accept that I haven't played well enough to have earned it. Fair enough, why pretend otherwise? I always get a damn good lesson, so I have no complaints.
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
And that's what upset me about Steve's post - that bit about "They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them" - as if adult learners expect a dollop of praise as part of the package and can't function without it.
Sorry, Steve, if I misunderstood your sense of humour(?). Perhaps you should add a few more next time!
But that isn't what I was trying to say. I'm talking about the learners (mainly adult) at the other end of the musical spectrum, down towards the no-hopers end. Isn't that what this thread is about? That's where I am.
Is it realistic to expect teachers to praise at every lesson? If I don't get praise, I can accept that I haven't played well enough to have earned it. Fair enough, why pretend otherwise? I always get a damn good lesson, so I have no complaints.
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
And that's what upset me about Steve's post - that bit about "They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them" - as if adult learners expect a dollop of praise as part of the package and can't function without it.
Sorry, Steve, if I misunderstood your sense of humour(?). Perhaps you should add a few more
next time!
Um. I AM an adult learner on the piano. And although I'm pretty good at a few instruments, I'm really not at all great on the piano. I find it pretty tough!
I don't think that teachers should lie, or give false encouragement. But I also don't think that nothing but a perfect performance should get praise. Even with those who really struggle, there's usually something good about a piece if someone has done any practice at all. My piano teacher never tells me something is good if it isn't... if something isn't that great then he will also tell me so. But he will also give praise where praise is due, even if it's for something pretty minor ("well done, you kept going" - despite all the wrong notes - or, if there is an improvement, even though the improved version is still pretty crappy... or if the tone is good, or I managed to actually get some dynamic contrast, or if I played more confidently than usual, or if my scales were good even though my pieces were terrible) - and I for one would struggle even more than I actually do on piano if all I was ever told was everything that was wrong about my piano playing, and was never told what was good or at least improved. In fact, precisely that was what ended up in me giving up piano lessons when I was 13.
Obviously in Steve's experience, adult students need to be drip fed praise. I don't suppose for a second that was intended to get at you or suggest that you personally were like that. But many are, and adult learners in general (teachers that I know all say this) are often quite insecure about their playing, and need the encouragement that they are not completely hopeless. It's a generalistion, so of course it isn't going to apply to every last person. But it applies to a lot of us, and it's true in an awful lot of cases. It wasn't intended to be an insult! You obviously are fine with a teacher who is less forthcoming with praise - good for you. I would struggle, and so would many others.
I don't think that teachers should lie, or give false encouragement. But I also don't think that nothing but a perfect performance should get praise. Even with those who really struggle, there's usually something good about a piece if someone has done any practice at all. My piano teacher never tells me something is good if it isn't... if something isn't that great then he will also tell me so. But he will also give praise where praise is due, even if it's for something pretty minor ("well done, you kept going" - despite all the wrong notes - or, if there is an improvement, even though the improved version is still pretty crappy... or if the tone is good, or I managed to actually get some dynamic contrast, or if I played more confidently than usual, or if my scales were good even though my pieces were terrible) - and I for one would struggle even more than I actually do on piano if all I was ever told was everything that was wrong about my piano playing, and was never told what was good or at least improved. In fact, precisely that was what ended up in me giving up piano lessons when I was 13.
Obviously in Steve's experience, adult students need to be drip fed praise. I don't suppose for a second that was intended to get at you or suggest that you personally were like that. But many are, and adult learners in general (teachers that I know all say this) are often quite insecure about their playing, and need the encouragement that they are not completely hopeless. It's a generalistion, so of course it isn't going to apply to every last person. But it applies to a lot of us, and it's true in an awful lot of cases. It wasn't intended to be an insult! You obviously are fine with a teacher who is less forthcoming with praise - good for you. I would struggle, and so would many others.
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 20 2005, 12:55 PM)
Is it realistic to expect teachers to praise at every lesson? If I don't get praise, I can accept that I haven't played well enough to have earned it. Fair enough, why pretend otherwise? I always get a damn good lesson, so I have no complaints.
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
And that's what upset me about Steve's post - that bit about "They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them" - as if adult learners expect a dollop of praise as part of the package and can't function without it.
Sorry, Steve, if I misunderstood your sense of humour(?). Perhaps you should add a few more next time!
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
And that's what upset me about Steve's post - that bit about "They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them" - as if adult learners expect a dollop of praise as part of the package and can't function without it.
Sorry, Steve, if I misunderstood your sense of humour(?). Perhaps you should add a few more
next time!Myth, I am beginning to wonder if you are wilfully mis-understanding what I and others have said here. Just because you want a particular approach does not mean that every body does.
You appear to adopting a 'my stance is correct and should be adopted by everybody' approach here. If true, most of us would describe it as arrogance.
Steve
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 20 2005, 01:55 PM)
I'm talking about the learners (mainly adult) at the other end of the musical spectrum, down towards the no-hopers end. Isn't that what this thread is about? That's where I am.
As I'm the one that brought the issue of adult learner's confidence into this, I have to say that no, I don't count myself as being a no-hoper. But I still find myself in the situation I described above - apologising for a non-achievement rather than celebrating progress....and both my teachers still find this irritating.
And why should adult learners be no-hopers anyway? This is an attitude that really needs to be challenged. Just 'cos you didn't learn your instrument as a kid doesn't stop you being a perfectly valid musician.
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 20 2005, 01:55 PM)
Is it realistic to expect teachers to praise at every lesson? If I don't get praise, I can accept that I haven't played well enough to have earned it. Fair enough, why pretend otherwise? I always get a damn good lesson, so I have no complaints.
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
I don't want some half-hearted praise for just having a go, or even worse, because the teacher somehow thinks I'm expecting it.
No-one ever suggested praise for the sake of it. But the fact remains that a lot of adult learners (me included) are a lot harder on ourselves when it comes to mistakes or difficulties learning things than our teachers are. A bit of reassurance when one feels crestfallen for not finding the whole music process as effortless as other (professional) adults appear to do is most welcome.
QUOTE(myth @ Jul 20 2005, 01:55 PM)
And that's what upset me about Steve's post - that bit about "They need shed-loads of praise drip fed to them" - as if adult learners expect a dollop of praise as part of the package and can't function without it.
Perhaps praise wasn't quite the word - perhaps reassurance is nearer the mark?
Myth, cut yourself, and the rest of us, some slack. We all need encouragement in our musical journeys, especially if we started those journeys later on in life.
Cheers
Katyjay
QUOTE(katyjay @ Jul 20 2005, 01:15 PM)
A bit of reassurance when one feels crestfallen for not finding the whole music process as effortless as other (professional) adults appear to do is most welcome...Perhaps praise wasn't quite the word - perhaps reassurance is nearer the mark?...Myth, cut yourself, and the rest of us, some slack. We all need encouragement in our musical journeys, especially if we started those journeys later on in life.
*round of applause*
Hear hear!
Aargh - don't know how to use the quote function!!! But I agree with Katyjay that adult pupils tend to be a lot harder on themselves than we as teachers are on them, and unless a piece is absolutely 110% perfect, in their view, it's rubbish. So yes, they do need a lot of encouragement, reassurance even praise for the things they are doing extremely well. So if my adult pupil has been struggling with a rhythm or technical problem all week and it's still causing difficulties, I'll focus first on what she IS doing well, and then tackle the problems. What's wrong with that??
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.