and I'm pretty devastated.

I'm 33 and have been having lessons on and off for a few years. Recently I auditioned for lessons at the Welsh College of Music and Drama and was told I had no ability or instinct for singing and was turned down. I then started taking lessons with a very reputable teacher, who has trained a few professionals among them one fairly well-known young Welsh female singer) and she has now basically told me the same thing. When I started taking lessons with her my confidence grew and I felt I was doing really well, but now my progress has slowed down and she has basically said there's no point in us doing classical stuff or exams and proper training because I can't do it. She'll teach me a few simple songs to sing at amateur dramatic level and thats it.

I'm heartbroken. I had dreams of doing all my grades and singing really beautiful pieces like Dido's lament and Samson et Dalilah but I've been told I'm just not "good enough". She tells me that beautiful voices are a musical gift and they can't be manufactured. I just don't have the gift and it hurts so much because I really want it. I keep hoping that somehow I can make my voice beautiful but I don't know how. I just feel I need some advice. Has anyone else been in this situation? Does anyone think there's any hope for me?

Yikes, that must have been horrible. As a singing teacher I hate the idea of having that kind of power over someone's musical future and I don't think it was terribly tactful on the part of your teacher.

I've been in your position too. When I went to University for a music degree I decided to carry on with performance in piano (then my 1st study). However after one lesson my very experienced new tutor basically told me that I'd never amount to much on the piano as I had no technique and had slightly double jointed little fingers. I had thought I was a fairly competent pianist until then but after that it was an uphill struggle to motivate myself and get through the year. To be fair, she was right about me not doing as well as my academic modules but I never felt like I did anything right for her because she was a retired professional and trained all sorts of prodigies in her career.

Perhaps a less 'professional' tutor would be more encouraging and help you achieve your goals by focussing on what you can do and building it up. Singing does not happen overnight and can take months and years of perseverence to build up. Pieces like Samson and Delilah or Dido's lament are very demanding!

Don't give up, perhaps taking it more simply might help build up your confidence and help improve your technique. It's hard to comment without hearing your voice so I can only offer my sympathy because I know what it's like to have your plans frustrated!

Thanks JazzyWench.

My main problems seem to be that I don't pronounce vowels properly, I have no vibrato, and I don't support my voice very well, because it sounds thin when I hear myself. My teacher says that my "ears are not connected to my brain"- ie I don't react quickly enough to what I hear and that I have trouble with foreign lanugages, pronouncing the italian and latin in classical songs.

She also thinks I'm too old at 33.

She just said that the difference between me and somneone who sings beautifully is that they have a musical talent they were born with and I don't.

I've been so depressed about it. I had dreams of studying all my grades and maybe even going back to Uni as a mature student to do music, but all that seems pretty hopeless now.

When I started with this teacher, I found that my voice was sounding really good, and this big sound that I've never heard before was coming out. But now I seem to have had a bit of a "downer" and I'm not achieving as much. I feel that there is a voice inside which I can't get out, it comes out strangled and thin instead of big and rich and beautiful.

She has only been teaching me since April and I kind of think that she should have given me a bit longer but I guess its just that I can't accept what shes saying, its too upsetting at the moment.

My boyfriend says "so you can't sing? Tough - neither can most people" but its not that simple for me, it really hurts me to be told that I have no gift when i want it so badly. I keep telling myself that perhaps its just confidence, or focus I need and it'll happen but my teacher says nothing she can teach me will make a difference. If its not there its not there. I feel so down and really do feel like giving up.

Hi I'm sorry I know absolutely nothing about this but I just wanted to say that everyone can achieve something! It's true that natural talent adds a notch to the final result but confidence and self-belief add so much more. It's no wonder you're struggling at the moment with those people saying such cruel things.

If you find the right tutor, which I am sure you will, I am positive you can achieve what you dream of. In the meantime, although it will be tough, maybe lower your ambitions slightly to a more reachable goal in the near future. Everyone on this forum will support you in your quest! *Big hugs*

I don't think 33 is "too old"...

Some people may find learning to sing easier than others, and she may be right (though how she can tell after a relatively short time... ) that you'll never reach the upper echelons, but please, don't give up on your singing, or music in general, just yet!!

Grade 5 violin and an attempt at grade 6 piano are pretty respectable - someone posted on here recently that violin and singing are supposed to be good for each other because both need good intonation. You obviously aren't totally unmusical to have got to a respectable level on both those instruments.

I think everyone has some sort of musical talent - one may find it easier to access than another, some people may have ridiculous amounts of talent, and some people progress very quickly where others take a lot longer - but it does NOT mean that you are talentless and too old! Remember that the people at the RWCMD are probably looking to teach future opera singers - just because you didn't match up to what they are looking for doesn't mean you have no voice at all or can't sing for toffee.

Learning to really listen to what's happening with your voice (or indeed any instrument) and reacting to it, adjusting as necessary, are skills that some people find more difficult than others, but they are also skills that will improve with practice. You talk about listening to yourself, and hearing what is wrong - some people can't even tell what is good or bad about their singing or playing, so straight away you're doing something right!

With such a downer it's not surprising your singing has suffered - whatever your natural talent or natural voice, being informed "you're no good" is not helpful to anyone. Maybe you need to find a teacher who is more experienced with dealing with adult learners and people who are not necessarily expecting to turn into pros overnight (she may be thinking that if she can't get you to super-dooper professional then it's not worth trying, but I always think it's good to try and be the best you can, even if you never quite attain the dizzy heights - I will probably never be James Galway or Emmanuel Pahud, but I'm sure as heck doing to give it my best shot!!!), and who is willing to help you deveop what you have got rather than tell you you are never going to get anywhere. It may take a good deal of patience to get somewhere... but I do find it hard to believe that you simply can't improve at all... that's a horrible thing to say to anyone.

Like jazzywench said, it's not like anyone here can really give you easy answers or tell you she's wrong, having not heard you sing, (hey, I probably couldn't even if I HAD....) but I think everyone deserves a chance to dream and to do their best, and a teacher who is willing to help you, support you, and let you TRY, even if you never get to be Dido. She's right in a sense that you can't magic a great voice out of nowhere, BUT, you can certainly learn to make the best of what you DO have and that might end up being more than you realised was possible. I'm no great singer myself, but I know that even a few hints and tops from a friend have helped me. Your teacher may have great technical knowledge but it sounds like she's lacking in people skills a bit!

Have you considered finding an amateur choir where you can relax, and sing as part of a group - and get a bit of the joy of singing back?

No one can say "oh she's wrong, you will get to be brilliant", but I would definitely encourage you not to give up on yourself. You really want to learn and you want to improve - that's a huge point in your favour.

1) shouldn't your voice teacher be teaching you how to say your vowels properly?
2) singing is for all ages
3) my advice- get a new voice teacher!!!!!!!!!

Musicians don't need to be "gifted"!

The ones who go far are the ones who work hard, and in the end it makes no difference whether you're "gifted" or not, just like anything else.

I would strongly suggest finding a new teacher. It's really important to have a positive influence in a teacher, they can make or break you. So don't let her break you.

I strongly echo what the others have said: Get a new teacher! Find someone who can teach you other styles of singing and concentrate on musicals or even gospel for a while. There's a lot of amatuer dramatic singing out there to get involved in too. Let this sort of thing build your confidence. Then, when you're feeling happier with your voice and ability, have another go at classical. Whatever you do don't allow one obviously bad-attitude teacher put you off. There are lots of good teachers out there that'll encourage you to do your best. Go find a good one!

I started my singing lessons a couple of years ago, and I'm the same age as you. I've had a couple of setbacks adn disappointments, and a break between teachers when I found my first teacher, after a while, wasn't taking me anywhere any more. I am serious about singing - I m about anything I do, and put in 100% when I can. Sometimes my job won't allow me too all the time. However, I do it for fun and because I enjoy it. I'm never going to get a diploma or make a career out of it, but it's so important to me.

I get the impression it's really important for you. Get a new teacher and give it another go. Where do you live? Assuming you had lessons at the Royal Welsh are you near Cardiff? I have a friend who teaches there - I could ask if she has any spaces. PM me if you want with your name and email and I could pass them on.... if that's a help. She's not an experienced teacher, (she's been teaching for just over a year professionally and just entered her first students for exams) but is young and enthuisiatic and is going to do her post-grad at the RW next year. And she's a breath of fresh air.

Oh dear, what a horrible thing to say!!!

I can see that you really want to sing, and that provides you with the best possible basis. Half-heartness gets you hardly anywhere, but with such passion for singing, I am quite sure that you will achieve what you want, even if it might take you a little longer, because from what you said I'm sure you have the necessary stamina and perseverence to get you there!
My advice: get a new, encouraging teacher (even if he/she is less reputable) - I think confidence-boosting is what you need most right now!

Good Luck! You can do it!

Here's a thread you may find interesting about 'talent'.

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=7264&hl=[/URL]

If you find your sound is 'thin' then you're not getting resonance (different to vibrato) and perhaps your diaphragm is not engaging properly. I don't suppose you could describe a typical lesson with your current teacher so we could make more suggestions on technique?

As for language problems I took the prompt in a performance recital report to heart about my Italian needing sharpened up and took night classes at my local tech (I'm now really wanting to try GCSE!!). I now adore the language and get really cross when people spell the plural of panino (panini) with an 's'!

As previously mentioned I don't think the relationship between this tutor and yourself is working. Chances are she'd slate me as well and I teach myself!

And it sounds like your boyfriend is just jealous that you have another passion besides him! kick him out to the pub with his mates when you want to practice, that's what I had to do at uni!

Hi everyone.

Thanks so much for your support! I'm so glad I've found this forum! Only people who feel the same about music as I do can understand how I feel! My teacher even compared my "inability" to sing to her inability to understand chemistry and physics at school - saying that "my mind just doesn't work like a singer's". That really hurt. She told me to "stop dreaming".

Jazzywench - typical lessons with my teacher tend to consist of 10 mins of warm-ups - doing very fast scales and octave jumps, usually which go too high for my range ( I have quite a low range and feel more comfortable singing alto/mezzo material, but she was pushing me to sing like a soprano) and the rest of the time being insulted about my disorganisation and "weird ways" when it came to learning music, going through pieces and being "yelled at" for not getting this or that right, being recorded and made to listen back to my "weird pronounciation" and then sent off home with a disinterested "go on then".

My teacher is fairly well known in the business - as I've said, she was the driving force behind a fairly well-known Welsh female singer so most people tend to think she really knows what she is on about.

Previous teachers I've had have had different methods. Current teacher says that I should expand my ribs when I breathe in and simultaenously pull up my lower abdomen muscles, and keep them fixed there the whole time (feels very tense and unnatural) whilst topping up breath. Previous teachers said I should breathe in until I felt "big" letting the air go into my lower stomach and lock my stomach muscles to hold it in - not to let the stomach go in or collapse at all as I breathed out (hard to do and again felt unnatural). Doing "controlled release" "sssssssss" exercises didn't help because I couldn't really relate it to when I was actually singing when you don't have time to take long breaths and let it out on a "sss" - you are singing words and phrases! Previous teacher also told me to use my lips like a funnel to concentrate or focus the sound forward while current teacher says thats wrong. Previous teacher says I was an alto/mezzo - current teacher started off telling me I was a soprano.

Current teacher also says I sing in the back of my throat too much (have been told to do an "UNG" exercise for this to get the voice into my resonance areas but its one thing to do an exercise and another to connect it to when you actually sing. I tend to pronounce my vowels a bit oddly - when I listen to myself singing "Tonight" (West Side Story) it sounds like "Tooooooo - noight" (although I wonder if its a nervous thing because when I relax and sing something like Evanescence's "My Immortal", I can sing "When you CRIED, I'D WIPE away all your tears" quite comfortably.

Another thing I was doing wrong was when I sang "O del mio dolce ardor", on the line "le piu lie-te speranze . . ." ("lie" being the really long high note) I'd cheat by changing the "eh" to a "ah". My vowels often do "vary" within a song.

I've been told I have a fairly "big" sound but it sounds a bit distorted sometimes, I think maybe I don't open my mouth wide enough. But again, although my teacher has pointed these things out she hasn't really done much work with me to correct them.

I also study dance - Ballet and Classical Indian Bharatanatyam, so I've fairly aware of my body, posture etc and have done a little bit of Classical Carnatic (South Indian) singing as part of my Bharatanatyam studies. Carnatic singing is fairly different to classical western - they are totally against what they call using "false" voice (what we would call "head voice") so there are no high soprano passages. And music is not read from a sheet, rather, you learn the swaras (notes) of the raga and memorise how to put them together in a song. Timing is also important with many different talas (rhythmn cycles).

The funny thing is, although I'm by no means an expert or even particularly accomplished at Carnatic singing, I don't seem to have the same problems in it that I do in classical Western singing - the pronounciation of my vowels etc (and the words are usually in Kannada, Tamil or Malayalam so its not as if its not in a different language!) and I can only therefore conclude that the problems I have with Western Classical singing are because I'm maybe trying too hard or because the way that things are pronounced and the sound is produced is very different, and I just haven't grasped it yet. Given that I've had lessons on and off for a few years, my current teacher takes that as an indication that my "brain doesn't work like a singer's" and she can do nothing for me."

Oh and btw I think you hit the nail on the head about my boyfriend! I've managed to encourage him to start taking guitar lessons so he has an interest of his own, although he never can be bothered to practice!! When he realised he wasn't going to play like Slash immediately, he lost interest! He still goes to lessons but does no practice!! Luckily he actually works ina pub so he is often out in the evening, and then I can have the house to myself to practice! If I try to do it when he's at home he keeps bothering me until I have to give up!!!







[

It sounds like you need to find a more sympathetic teacher - you have bags of enthusiasm and the desire to do well. Any sensible teacher should be going "hey, she really wants to do this" and giving you all the help they can

What a nasty teacher you have! She obviously does not want to teach you - I think the others are right, and she's not interested in anybody except keen young things who are going on to be professionals. You need to get a new teacher as soon as possible, before she does irretrievable damage to your self-confidence.

A good teacher will find you things that suit your current capabilities, while stretching you gently to the next level. They would give you practical hints on how to improve; eg in pronunciation, the "I" sound is known to be difficult at high pitch, which is why in some songs you find them easier than others. There are ways of getting round this. This is nothing to do with your own "lack of talent".

I am fortunate to have a brilliant teacher who has a variety of pupils at all levels of ability/experience. She tailors what she says and does according to the individual, and consequently, ALL her pupils make great progress under her. She accepts and respects that most of her adult pupils are not going to become professionals, but who want to make music to the best of their varying abilities. She is equally pleased to coach somebody to a grade 1 pass as to a diploma. That's the sort of teacher you need. There are plenty of good ones out there - get away from this unsupportive teacher as soon as you can!

if ($practice + $enthusiasm != $talent) {
echo "$practice + $enthusiasm > $talent";
}

So you're saying that no matter how much effort you put in, you can't become more talented? Or have I misunderstood.... Probably the latter

if ($practice + $enthusiasm != $talent) { // If practice and enthusiasm do not equal talent...
echo "$practice + $enthusiasm > $talent"; //...practise and enthusiasm are greater than talent
}

Sorry? I'm really confused!!!

I think that what he's trying to say is that even if you haven't as much talent as you have enthusiasm and willingness to practice, then your enthusiasm and practice can make up for the "lack of talent"... but I could well be wrong...

Practice and enthusiasm are as important if not more important than talent

Not a clue why I didn't just say that in the first place!

Ah, I got confuzzled on the DO NOT equal talent thing...

Lady Moonlight

Sorry I've only just read this topic, and the parallel one on the adult learners' forum. Someone at the concert tipped me off that these were here for when I came back!

First, and most important, YOU ARE NOT TOO OLD. You are two years YOUNGER than I was when I had my first EVER singing lesson. And any teacher who tells you otherwise is someone you really don't want to see ever again.

Second, the whole way she's telling you to sing sounds absolutely awful. Does it make you stressed, squeaky and uncomfortable? If so, IT'S WRONG. So ditch the teacher and the technique PDQ.

Third, the relationship between an adult learner and a teacher is a business partnership, based on mutual respect. Anything other than that, and you seriously don't want to know.

OK, so that's dealt with the issue of your current non-teacher. Now let's turn to the issue of your singing technique.

Singing is a form of relaxation. You can only sing well when your muscles are relaxed, and you let your body do the breathing (it does a better job of it than your mind does - it's had more practice ). Air pressure is what makes your lungs fill up, and air pressure is what will make your vocal chords vibrate, so the sound can come out. Not muscle power. Singing should need no more effort than speaking does.

As for resonance at the front of your face (the posh technical term is the mask) - you actually get a lot more resonance, and a lot more convincing vibrato, by letting the sound vibrate in the much bigger cavity at the back of the throat. One of my biggest struggles is to keep my voice back - which sounds like a battle you've already won, so you're ahead of me there .
It's true you can't "make" vibrato - but you can let it happen by relaxing. Try it and see. Sing an "yah" sound on a comfortable note, but rather than using your throat to start it, use a heavy sigh and see what happens......

And everyone thinks their voice sounds thin when they hear a recording of it. Don't let it get you down.

Pronunciation? No-one is born knowing how to pronounce anything. You learn to pronounce your first language when you're a toddler, and it only comes right with practice - why do you think that would be different for any other language? Give it some time, and give yourself a chance. Oh, and that high "liete" in "O del mio dolce ardor"? I sang it as an "ah" vowel in my Grade 8 exam and still got a distinction

Repertoire - there's no reason why you shouldn't sing Dido's Lament, or anything else you want a go at. It's a pretty tricky work, but if you enjoy it, go for it! (The first time I sang it in public was about six months after I started lessons (and was working for my Grade 5 exam). I made an absolute horlicks of the breathing, and stuffed up the recitative, but loved singing it regardless. And nobody noticed (or at least nobody commented) on the mistakes.) Pick up some experience from Amateur Dramatics if you like, and try a range of genres - musical theatre, jazz, blues, rock, whatever - you may find something suits you really well.

Perhaps the first thing is to decide what your initial goal is vocally. How about getting into a good amateur choir, or getting accepted as a soloist at your current choir if you're in one, or passing Grade 5 singing? Those were my first targets, which is why I'm using them as an example. You'll have different ideas and a different background.

And also have a think about what you want to end up doing with your singing. Do you want to be a professional soloist? A music teacher? Just having fun with your singing and being part of really good choirs? None of these will happen overnight, and at 33 you've got a loooooooooong time ahead of you to enjoy doing some or all of them.

Oh gosh - this has turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry. But I hope some of it helps.

Good luck in your singing. Find a teacher who will teach you rather than some mental picture of an ideal pupil, and go back to relaxing and enjoying it.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat at all.

Cheers

Katyjay

I'm going to probably annoy everybody here now...

Lady Moonlight, I agree with everyone else that you probably need a different teacher. Maybe another teacher can help your voice develop.

HOWEVER, I do think that an awful lot of musicians have 'stars in their eyes' and think they are going to be the next Yo Yo Ma / Freddie Kempf / Kiri Te Kanawa (pick famous musician of your choice). In 999 cases out of 1000, there is no way they're even going to come close. I don't know if it's lack of innate talent, or lack of application, or a combination, but I do think that an awful lot of 'young' musicians (by which I mean those at the beginning of their careers, rather than necessarily in age) are setting themselves up for a big disappointment. I work in a university and see it all the time.

Yes, aim high if you want, but also be realistic: the very heights of the musical profession are b****y hard to attain, and the majority of us are never going to make it. And singing is very different from learning an instrument: it's very much the case that if you haven't got a 'voice', there's only so much you can do; you will never be up to the same level as someone who is blessed with a different physical make-up. This makes it incredibly hard for singers, much more so than for (say) pianists, who are not restricted by the instrument God gave them!

Thanks everyone, especially Katyjay, your words have really helped.

I've decided to start going back to a teacher I went to earlier on thnis year (I was persuaded to dump her on the advice of someone who told me that I needed someone who was a bit more "technique" minded - and referred me to the teacher I've been telling you all about). The new teacher is very nice, very relaxed, very kind and pleasant and treats all her students with respect. I think it also helps that she is a bit older (more mature outlook and attitude), and has adult children who have also studied music. The only thing is that she doesn't spend a lot of time on technique, so I don't know if perhaps I need to take a few extra lessons with a more technique-orientated teacher who can tell me what I'm doing wrong in that respect

She has decided to start me on some Grade 4 singing material because its simpler and doesn't require such demanding technique, so I can work at the basics and start getting to know my voice instead of worrying about more complex stuff. The stuff I was being given by the teacher I was telling you all about was Grade 6 - 8 standard!

I still feel I have no talent and I don't know if I'll ever get better but I think I need to train my ear a bit more to listen to what I am singing and correct it myself when it sounds wrong, rather than just thinking that it sounds wrong and I don't know what to do about it. I am convinced I can sing, I just don't quite know where I am going wrong.

As for the talent thing, and not aiming too high/thinking you're going to be the next Dame Kiri te Kanawa, well in my humble opinion there is nothing wrong in thinking like that because how else do people get their motivation? Its all very well to say "only a few gifted people have it/you'll never make it" but if you think that will keep people "in their place" so they don't TRY, then you're mistaken. I think that if someone really wants something they will work towards it. They may achieve it or they may achieve something slightly less, but they'll work all the same. Just as someone who has masses of natural talent but DOESN'T want to be "the next Dame Kiri" will never succeed, even at local/amateur level.

My teacher compared my "inability" to sing well to her "iniability" to understand physics and maths at school. The difference is that she probably DIDN'T WANT to understand physics and maths and I DO want to understand singing. I have a feeling that difference is significant.

I feel there is a snobbery about the classical music world, where those at the top of the tree love to shove people who are trying to climb up it away so they can keep the top "exclusive". They like to think of themselves as special and they need to keep putting others down and destroying dreams in the hope that they will stay "special" and "among the few". Its only truly secure people who can say things like "everyone has the ability to sing" because the thought of lots of other people being able to do what they do doesn't make them feel threatened.

I attended an amateur masterclass with Barbara Bonney (the famous America soprano) a few years ago - was one of the singers who performed and she was so kind, so sweet and had good things to say about everyone, no matter how "bad" or "inadequate" their technique was! She didn't tell anyone to "stop dreaming" or tell them to just sing in the shower, she made everyone feel like they had something to offer. I guess she can do this because she is a real professional and she is so secure in her own talent and achievements she doesn't need to put people down to make herself feel big.

You are soooo lucky to go to that! It wasn't the one on telly was it? I got a friend to record it. I though Barbara Bonney was brilliant with everyone, and so encouraging. Such an improvement with everyone - I watch it over and over. It must have been amazing to take part.

I'm pleased that you have decided to give you other teacher a go again. You obvioulsy got on well, and enjoyed your time together - so important. I haven't seen my friend yet, so unless you want me to, I won't pass on your mail address. If you ever want me to, let me know.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on with your next lesson.

Well, that told me, didn't it?

Lady M, I agree totally that there is a certain amount of snobbery in classical music, and I'm completely against that too. However, please don't try and interpret my comments as me trying to 'keep you down', because I never said that. (In fact, I said 'the majority of US are never going to make it' - ie. including myself.)

I also said that you should aim high if you want to. I just think a bit of general realism all round in the musical world would save a lot of broken hearts later on. THere's nothing wrong at all with taking the perspective of 'I think I'm good at this, and I'm going to work really really hard, but life is cruel, I might not make it, and if I don't then life still goes on.' This to me is a lot healthier than someone convincing themselves they're SOOOOO fantastic and it's the rest of the world's fault that they haven't been noticed yet. Then you just end up bitter and twisted.

Hi, Lady Moonlight!

It's a shame Cyrilla is in Hungary at the moment. She teachers Kodaly at the Junior Guildhall in London and is forever coming in here convincing people who don't want to sing or think they can't sing that we all can, and that Kodaly training is at least one way (she would say the best) to dramatically improve our musicianship through singing.

If you do a keyword search on this forum for "Kodaly" it should bring up 3 pages of links. click here for a link to one of the earlier discussions on Kodaly on this website. The British Kodaly Academy do a summer course and various day courses throughout the year - quite a few forum members went to one in Birmingham and seemed to have a great time.

If I understand your posts correctly you are trying to make improvements in various areas of your singing simultaneously. I'm not sure whether Kodaly would improve the basic sound quality of your singing voice, but by all accounts it should dramatically improve your ability to hit the right notes, and I suppose that would give you the confidence to relax more and the time to concentrate more on voice production.

It seems that Kodaly is often recommended for non-singers who want to improve their musicality, but certainly one of the Kodaly teachers local to me is a singing teacher, and you seem so keen to explore ways to improve that I thought you should at least be aware of this.

Good luck with your nice new teacher.

This is a very important posting and it leads me to an important conclusion.

I find in music that it is the satisfaction you gain right NOW that propels you. There is no use when you are working at Grade IV thinking about advanced operatic repertoire, or trying to compare yourself with someone like Kiri te Kanawa. No, your mission is to interpret and perform Grade IV in the best way you possibly can, now and when you do this, your enjoyment and satisfaction will be huge.

Once you have performed enough consecutive steps as expertly as your early steps then yes, you may be at the level you dream of. But give yourself a chance! Find a teacher that will not only teach you, but support you and motivate you. Someone with whom you can build mutual trust.

Music need never be disappointing.

Yes, Lady Moonlight, I felt your comment about snobbery in classical music was a bit too much of a generalisation.



Your remark here was not only a generalisation, but perhaps a bit inappropriate, given how many people have taken time to reply to your two posts on different forums !

Some of us on here are amateurs, and others are professionals and may be well towards the top of their particular tree - nevertheless we have, I believe, all tried to be encouraging. I hope some of it has been helpful.

George gave your topic a particularly good summing up, I thought.

I hope you continue to enjoy your music - that's vital.

the most important in life is to enjoy the music you sing.............

I think 99% of us struggle with the other extreme though - thinking you're pants when actually you're really good - or even reasonably good, or even "have some form of developable talent"! I agree that there's no point just telling people "oh of course you can be a pro/be the best in the world", etc etc... but in reality few people on here, or in real life, really think that (and they're usually easy to spot... )

What most people need, and what I think people have been trying to give to lady moonlight, is the belief that it's worth trying to be the best you can - as I've said, I have no illusions that I am going to be the next Pahud or Gallois or... etc. But I am going to aim high and do the best I can. I think after the toasting lady moonlight was given by her teacher, her problem right now is not thinking she's God's gift to singing! And I do think she possibly overreacted slightly, but given the way she's been dumped on by her teacher I think that's pretty understandable! No, let's not try and tell everyone they have it in them to be world class performances, and by all means let us be realistic, but let's be careful about not jumping up and down on people's dreams, too, and making sure we do encourage people to do their best, whatever level they are at, and to enjoy what they are doing... George - AMEN. Well said.

I wasn't trying to say that everyone at the top of their particular tree is trying to beat people down, my brother's double bass teacher is one of the best in the country, yet she is encouraging ang and positive to all her students. She never tells them "you can't" or "don't waste your time". She might tell someone they need more work on a particular aspect of their playing befroe they can progress to the next level and will then spend time helping them, overcome whatever is stopping them getting through that particular hurdle, but she always leaves them the avenue open to get better. She is encouraging my brother to apply to RWCMD as he has just passed his grade 8 and she feels he has the talent. So I know that not all people at the top of their tree have an issue with trying to beat people back and tread on their dreams.

But I have found that a lot of the "top" people who I've met and experienced (nothing to do with anyone on this board!) have this attitude and I see it serves no purpose. Actually I shouldn't say "top" people because the "toppest" singer I've ever met is Barbara Bonney and she treated all the amateur singers who
sang for her with warmth, respect and positivity. She sat and listened attentively to each performance, smiled and looked like she was enjoying it (and she certainly didn't "sigh/yawn" rudely half way through my performance as one of the auditioners at the RWCMD did!!) . She gave everyone supportive advice, told them where they needed to work, told a few people they were good enough to be professional, but those who clearly weren't were at least told they had pretty voices/nice tone/beautiful expression/lovely vibrato or given some other motivation to work on a particular aspect of their voice - EVERYONE HAD SOMETHING!!!. One young girl who was very nervous - she had only just began singing - sang a folk song in a very quiet and clear voice - not operatic at all, no vibrato, but it was perfectly in tune and the diction was lovely. Barbara told her that she must *never change a thing about her voice* because it was pure and beautiful and she should steer away from opera into lighter work which would preserve the delicate and gentle quality, and must never let anyone try to change her voice. I'm sure the people I've had experience of would have told her she had no "volume", no support, no technique yada yada yada

But then most of the people who have had this negative attitude are people who are relatively successful but nowhere near as successful as Ms. Bonney, which may explain a few things . . .


If someone wants to do something they will do it. The guy at the aforementioned college which turned me down when I auditioned for lessons even told me "I only tell you this so as not to waste your money and time on something you have no ability at". Excuse me, but whose money and time is it? If I want to "waste it" (and its not wasting it in my opinion) then I will! Its not his problem or even his concern!!!!!

Also please grant me some intelligence to know that someone working on Grade IV cannot compare themselves to Dame Kiri!!!! What I do want, however, if the chance to get better, to improve myself and to dream that one day I might be on the stage in a concert hall - not to be told "You can't do it, it'll never happen stop dreaming". Whose dreams are they anyway? Telling that to someone who really wants to do something is not going to change their minds. It will hurt them, knock their confidence and make them feel bad about themselves, it might discourage them or make them feel that they are "not as good" as those who "can" (which is why I think some people get a "kick" out of being able to do this - and I stress the "some" - not all) but they will carry on doing it regardless if it means enough to them.

And yes I am fairly annoyed at the way I have been spoken to by people who are apparently "authorities" on singing. They had the power to make me feel great about myself or make me feel like pants, and they chose the latter. It served no purpose. I'm still singing, still "wasting" my time and money and I'm still dreaming!!! All they did is hurt and upset me. And make themselves appear to be not very nice people!

There's still the issue that a voice is something you are BORN with, and if you don't have it you can only get so far. Maybe that's what these people you've experienced are trying to get at (just not in a very tactful way)?



Forgive me for being cynical, but Ms. Bonney would have been being *paid* for doing this masterclass. If she upsets her students, she doesn't get invited back again.



You're really quite prickly about this, aren't you? If you dont' want people to give you their opinion, then don't post something on a board.

Actually Claire21, I'm going to take you up on this.

I found your first posting to be pretty offensive. Like Lady Moonlight I'm a late starter, and like her I'm ambitious to progress as a singer.

I don't see why I should not be ambitious - I believe I've got a good voice (although I'm sure that people who came to the Adult Learners' Concerts will have a view on that ), I'm prepared to put the work in to improve it, and I'm beginning to get regular solo work. In two and a half years I've gone from my first lesson to ATCL and preparing for LTCL.

I don't see why I shouldn't have a game plan to become a professional musician, possibly doing some teaching too, when I'm a bit further along. I can't emulate Kiri Te Kanawa, but I don't see what's wrong with following the example of someone like Christine Brewer (who's an American opera singer and who only took her singing seriously in her mid thirties). And just maybe I'll be able to do some opera later on - it's a nice idea.

Your attitude came over as saying that a late starter with ambition will (1) want to be nothing less than Kiri Te Kanawa and (2) will be bitter and twisted when they don't make it (and there's an inherent assumption in there that late starters won't make the grade anyway which I also find obnoxious). Perhaps that wasn't how you meant it to sound, but that's the impression I got.

And your tone was a bit patronising - I've been at university too (as have a lot of people here), and seen a lot of life since, and I do know about the disappointment of reaching your limits in an area in which you thought you were pretty competent (Maths in my case). But I would never suggest that anyone who wants to do well has "stars in their eyes" - I'd wish them luck and hope they achieved as much as they could.

Just what did you get out of making that comment to Lady Moonlight when she had suffered a set back? And what help do you think it was to her? Or to any other learner, adult or otherwise?

Katyjay

Wooo, am I unpopular on this thread. Like I said before, if people don't want to hear others' opinions, they shouldn't post on a board....



I never said anyone shouldn't be ambitious - please read my posts properly. I just said that alongside ambition should come a little realism. That's in both directions: one person should be confident in their own abilities, and realise they're good when they are, just as another person should be able to realise when they're not going to make it to the top.



I never said anyone shouldn't have plans like that - fantastic! if you have the ability, then I"m right behind you.



Wooo, I DO wish people would read what I said. I never said anything about late starters specifically. My comments apply to anyone, kids as well! I don't know how you imagine that I assumed late starters won't make the grade, I never implied that. Maybe you're reading in to my posts more than is actually there???



I wish anyone luck, BUT I think it's unhealthy not to realise that you might not make it. I see an awful lot of kids at university who arrive thinking they're going to be stars, believing absolutely in reaching for the top because they ARE JUST SO TALENTED (in their eyes, and because mum/dad/teacher has told them). Then they realise other people at university are miles better than them and they get very depressed, OR they still believe it when they finish uni (maybe becuase they were top of the pile there), apply for a postgrad at a conservatoire, and don't get in, and THEN get very depressed. Reality is always going to hit sooner or later, in 99% of cases - is it better to accept from the start that that's going to happen, or is it better to blame the world for not waking up to your true star status? I know people who blame the world, and they are really not very nice or emotionally healthy people, in my opinion.



I was trying to help her (and others) get things in perspective a little bit - as I said before, yes aim high, but life will go on. As George said, we should be aiming to be the best we are NOW. And I still maintain that voice is hugely different from other instruments, because we are all dependent on what we are born with. Let's be brutally honest: the chances of any of us on this board becoming musical superstars is pretty remote - fine if we all want to aim for it (I would love to be a superstar too!), but LIFE GOES ON, and reality is going to hit almost all of us eventually at some point. Struggling on when it's pointless (and I'm not saying that about anyone in particular) just makes you unhappy - be happy with where you are *now*.

Claire, I think it would have been a fair comment if ladymoonlight had come on here saying "I've been turned down and told I'm no good, but they're all wrong and I'm going to be famous anyway." She didn't. She came on saying that her current teacher was unwilling to help her and discouraging, that she wanted to try her best and aim towards grade 8 and some high level singing one day, with the dream of maybe one day studying singing formally at college. I hardly think she's living in an unreal, I-will-become-famous world, and as such doesn't need to be dropped on or told she's lving in cloud cuckoo land. She is trying to be the best she can be now - her teacher's comments have actually got her to the point where she's doing worse than she could be now. That is terrible, terrible teaching, and it certainly made lady moonlight very UNhappy. I really don't see how your comments helped in any way, unlike George's which were sensible and helpful. Negativity is different from realism. Your post came across very negative.

Re: the voice, yes we're all stuck with what we are born with, but we can all learn to make the best use of that, and with training most people can get far far better than their natural voice and get far more accurate with pitching etc. Not all of us are going to be Dame Kiri, but we all have the potential to get better. Did anyone see the "Can't sing singers" thing? Some of the people on their didn't improve that much, but all improved (and after 12 group lessons you woudln't expect miracles) and some of them improved almost beyond belief.

As for your comment,


Don't talk rot. You think she'd be invited back if she told people who were terrible that they were good? Of course she's not going to purposely antagonise people (but I'm sure I'm not to only one round here who thinks that NO teacher should purposely antagonise their students...) but if she made comments that were clearly false and made her look like an idiot (which they would) then everyone would doubt her expertise and those who she told "You might be able to make it professionally" would not believe her. Give the woman credit for a little integrity...

Well, I still think my comments apply. Rewrite 'aiming to be a superstar' with 'aiming to study singing at college', it's possibly still aiming too high for one's abilities. I would quite like to study astronomy, but my maths is terrible, so I accept that that's never going to happen.



I never said Lady M should give up (in fact, one of the first things I said was that she should find a new teacher), I said she should get it in perspective.



What I'm trying to point out is that Lady M shouldn't read too much into a professional's behaviour in a masterclass - OF COURSE that individual is not going to slag off her students in that kind of setting. She's trying to hold her up as this saintly, ultra-encouraging teacher, but OF COURSE she is going to be like that. If this had been a private lesson, she might have been incredibly nasty to that student, who knows?

I'm getting kind of puzzled as to the purpose of this board: is it supposed to be a love-in where we all tell each other how great we are? (even though actually we have no idea) Or is it to say what we think and to get different perspectives? For the third time: IF YOU CAN'T COPE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS, DON'T POST ON A BOARD. If you're posting because that's the only way you can get encouragement, from virtual 'friends', then, well... I don't know...

Having heard katyjay sing, I can confirm she's a bit good!

LadyMoonlight - don't give up! Any conservatoire audition panel is probably used to people who are way beyond Grade 6, so you were probably a bit of a shock to them. I've never had a singing lesson in my life, and am very aware I'm unlikely to be gracing the stage of the Royal Opera House (at least, not in a singing capacity!), but it's nevertheless something I enjoy. I wholeheartedly agree with whoever suggested that you find a choir to join - this will help you to carry on getting enjoyment out of singing, and if it's anything like my choir, some rehearsals are almost a singing lesson for 100 people, as well as a very sociable occasion.

If I wanted to get rid of a particular pupil, I suspect telling them that they were rubbish, and they should stop wasting their time and effort and to wake up and smell the you'll-never-get-anywhere-with-this brand of coffee would do the trick. I've had horrendous clashes with teachers in the past, including one who threatened not to teach me because I wasn't doing things his way. Find a teacher with whom you can have a decent pupil-teacher relationship, and find one NOW!

I suspect if you actually wanted to enough you could get tutoring in maths and get a lot better, if your dream was truly to study astronomy. And certainly a teacher who said "Look, this is going to be a lot of hard work and you still might not make it, this could be a total waste of money, are you really sure you want to try..? but if you do want to try then I will help you as much as I can" would be a lot more sensible and helpful than one who said "No, there's no point in trying, you're terrible at maths and no one can ever help you because you're a total imbecile when it comes to sums." Telling you that they'd teach you but you'll never be able to do more than simple arithmatics so they would not even let you try would be equally unhelpful - pretty much what LM's teacher has said, more or less, to extend the analogy.

Honesty and realism don't have to equal cruelty. Besides which... I still totally disagree. Aiming higher than one's current or even total abilities doesn't have to mean not having the realism to realise there's a good chance you may not make it.

My aim with my flute playing is to be as good as a professional soloist... I am more than aware of the fact that I'll almost definitely never make it, and that maybe even getting grade 8 will prove to be beyond my reach. But my dream of being that good (and I don't even care whether I ever got to BE a soloist - I just want to be as good as one) keeps me practising, and keeps me listening to the best flautists for inspiration. And aiming high means that, even if I don't ever get close to what my dream is, I will get to be the best I can be. Aiming for "Well I'd quite like to get grade 6" is all very well and more than achievable as a short term goal, but it would not feed my imagination to practice and work every day and listen to flautists and all the other stuff as a long term goal or even dream. My short term goal is the realistic one - I want to be the best I can be now, and improve the most I can. The dream is what keeps me going on days when being the best I can is hard work. The very fact that LM describes it as a dream not as "my goal for the next 10 years" or something tells you that she isn't assuming she will make it. Sure, her goal for now is just being the best she can and getting over the cruelty of her teacher. But having a long term dream of going to college is what helps her on days when her voice seems to be totally misbehaving.

I'd be much more concerned if she said "I'm now singing Dido's lament and Delilah's aria, and I am doing a great job but my teacher says I'm terrible" or something. Lady moonlight seems to have at least a fair idea of what she can and cannot presently manage!


And I think she HAS it in perspective. She is not saying "I will get there", she's saying "I'd like to try but my current teacher won't even help me to do that".


I very much doubt that anyone of integrity would, however, put their name to comments that were so positive without having some idea that they were also true. Maybe you think no one has integrity, well hey ho... most teachers do, and certainly the good ones. And even in public classes I've known teachers criticise - in either public or in private, criticism can be done in a good or a bad way... it's pretty clear that lady moonlight's teacher is good at the latter kind. A good teacher should be able to handle being critical without being cruel.


Um, ditto. If you can't cope with the fact that people disagree with you and think YOU are wrong, then that's your problem. No one's stopping you posting, but similarly, it doesn't mean others can't say "No, I think you're wrong and negative and totally unhelpful". You reserve the right to post your opinions, so you have to give others the right to tell you if they think you're plain wrong...

I don't think a single person has, on this thread, told lady moonlight "oh of course you are good" (if they have, then I have missed it.) In fact, several people have said essentially "we can't tell you anything about your voice without hearing you".

What people have said is that one negative teacher should not put a person off trying for their dreams, and that even if the dreams prove to be unattainable in the end, it's always worth trying. You don't seem to agree with that, well then I don't agree with you. Fair's fair - each to their own. I think you are wrong to think that way - feel free to think that I'm wrong and that dreams are unhelpful. No biggie. I think a dream is always worth having and trying for, and that even if I, or lady moonlight, or any of the others out there who are aiming for a dream, fail, then we'll still do better than if that long term wishful-thinking goal wasn't there.

Just an addendum, Claire, that was a low blow - your implication presumably is that people who can't get encouragement except online must be pretty bad. That's a pretty large assumption. Sadly, not all of us have hoards of friends who are able and interested to give feedback, and if the only feedback someone can get from someone who supposedly knows what they are talking about is their teacher, then that teacher has an abnormal amount of power and sway over them. If the person is lacking in musical experience and/or self-esteem, the problem is even more acute. It's hardly surprising, when that teacher has been very cruel, that they might look to a community of people online. (You may not have intended your comment to sound so harsh, but bear in mind that online people don't have the benefit of tone of voice/facial expression to soften the blow...)

I had a very bad flute teacher at school who, as well as teaching me bad technique, asserted that I was not a very good flautist. I was fortunate at the time to have supportive parents and friends, and I went on to have lessons with a fantastic teacher who improved my flute-playing beyond recognition. If I had believed that flute teacher - or even if I had not believed him but had not had any other source of informed feedback - I would probably not be playing the flute today. I had nothing except the support of my parents (my clasroom music teachers at school were less than helpful and neither of them played the flute), and a few inexperienced friends, and wihout that I would have been forced to either believe that he was right (when he definitely wasn't) or to submit to his methods (which would have left my technique in tatters.) Some people are in that position, and just because their one source of supposedly informed feedback is not positive, is does not mean that they can't play or are completely unmusical. My teacher said that of me, and I can promise you that for example when it comes to tone on the flute, I'm better now than he was then - and he was the teacher.

No one is in a position on here (as far as I'm aware) to give a second opinion as it were for lady moonlight, but we're definitely in a position to tell her that she should get some feedback and help from different quarters, and it is entirely possible that a different teacher could change things beyond recognition. Lady Moonlight may never sing Delilah or Dido, but a good teacher can and should help her to improve, not tell her she's not capable of improvement.

(and yes, hey, I know a voice is a voice is a voice, but the improvement in it from a good teacher can be absolutely astounding - I've heard it)

Okay, well, I just can't be bothered to unpick all of Sarah's comments, I have better things to do this afternoon. I just want to point out that Lady M's very first post said:



If she's not prepared to hear the answer 'no' (which, incidentally, I didn't give, but everybody seems to dislike hearing an even slightly-negative voice on here), then she shouldn't ask the question.

You can all go back to encouraging each other now.

I've met very few people who are completely beyond all hope. Most of the time, just a few words of encouragement are all that's needed to try and pull someone out of the doldrums, particularly if they've had a crushing experience, e.g. bad lesson or failed exam. Hands up all of those who've ever had to tell Nat to stop being so negative, and that she doesn't know she's failed.

<cue rushing wind sounds as hundreds of hands are raised >

Surely it's the role of the teacher to encourage wherever possible, whilst still maintaining some kind of reality. Clarinet pupil knows he won't be playing concerti at Carnegie Hall, but, like Barbara Bonney, I try to find something positive to say all of the time.

I really do think LadyMoonlight needs to see a different teacher, if only for a second opinion. One of Husband's friends had a singing teacher who insisted that Husband's friend should sing late Romantic stuff (Wagner, Strauss, etc.), even though she wanted to sing, and her voice was far more suited to singing, early music.

Hello there! I don't know if you're allowed to say, but who did you come across at the Welsh coll that told you that? I know the college very well as I was a pupil there for a couple of years.

I have to say,I'm afraid the world of singing is extremely competitive, tough and ######y..especially at a conservortoire level, but I cannot understand why your teacher should say that to you when you are still learning...that is a very upsetting thing to hear..

We all have dreams and goals and why shouldn't you be able to sing the songs you want to sing? It might some time while your voice develops and your technique improves, but if you really want to keep going, go for it!

I do believe that singing is one of those things where to get to a certain level, you must have a special something, and even a good voice is not good enough nowadays, you have to have the 'whole package' to get to the top!

There is no reason why you can't set goals for yourself, ie: doing your ABRSM grades, perhaps doing your own recital for the pleasure of it, have your family come and watch you..don't give up!

No-one has said she's not prepared to hear it. It is clear that as singing is her passion she doesn't want to hear it, just like you wouldn't want to hear it about one of your passions! It is also true that self-confidence plays a large part in helping improve in any aspect of life. So that why we are giving positive comments.


"You can all go back to encouraging each other now." - clearly you never want encouragement from anyone on here claire so why exactly did you join?!

I seem to be a bit out on a limb here, but I really didn't see anything wrong with Claire 21 expressing a view that it's best to try to be realistic, or the way that she expressed it - even if there's an equally good opposing argument along the "reach for the stars" line. Her first post didn't strike me as a post intended to contradict previous posters' opinions (not that it would be wrong to do so in any event), only to add another line of thought to the general discussion. In the face of posts to the effect that she's offensive, talks rot, and what is she doing here anyway, she seems to have bitten her tongue quite well. I didn't really go with her lady/spiffing analogy on a different thread, but I get the impression she is a reasonably forthright person who is actually making a conscious effort to avoid unnecessary offence - perhaps letting one or two slip through the net. I'm sure if we rack our brains we can all think of one or two valued forum members/ ex-members who fall into that sort of category. Lady Moonlight seems to be an extremely articulate lady who has not sought to express offence at Claire 21's posts. Can't we all follow her example?

PS I reckon Claire21 and Sarah-Flute would be bezzy mates if they actually knew each other.

Claire, when you say that people are "born" with a voice, do you mean that their vocal chords/diaphragm/lungs are different to other people's? Because those organs are what produces a voice and as far as I understand it, we are all fairly similar in that respect. Some people find it fairly easy to put all the different parts of singing - technique/musicality/rhythym/pitch/tone/pronounciation together and make a wonderful sound. Others need some guidance. But as I see it, we can all sing as we all have the same organs in our body through which voice is made.

Lady Moonlight, it seems to me that you must have a reasonable voice, or your teacher would not have suggested you could sing in amateur dramatics without further training... if you had a horrible voice then I'm sure she wouldn't suggest you inflict it on anyone! So I think you must have an ok voice.
















zoda I actually don't entirely agree with you regarding offensiveness but have decided that I'm way too tired to argue with anyone at the moment, and if anyone offends me I'll just stop reading them, so.... *shrug*

[quote=Claire21,Jul 28 2005, 06:58 AM]
[quote]
Forgive me for being cynical, but Ms. Bonney would have been being *paid* for doing this masterclass. If she upsets her students, she doesn't get invited back again.
[/quote]

That makes no sense. Barbara Bonney is a very successful professional opera singer who sings at the Met and all over the world, releases CDs and teaches some of the best singers in the world. She does not *need* in any way shape or form to do amateur masterclasses, either financially or for her career!!!!

She actually said that she loves to work with amateur singers because she feels they have a love for music that professionals sometimes lack. Professionals pay the mortgage with their voices and along the way can lose some of the love they have for their art, with all the stress that entails, but amateurs do it for sheer love.

And like I said, she made everyone feel they had something to offer. A lot of these "vocal teachers" could learn a lot from the professional and respectful way she treated everyone who sang for her, especially the auditioner at the RWCMD! But then they are unlikley ever to reach her levels of success in their careers!

I think Barbara Bonney was inspirational in the masterclass I saw on the telly. I watch it over and over.... I feel really pleased to see the improvements of those taking part - rather emotional sometimes - and I'm sure that her reward comes from that too.

Generously put. Round here I tend to get "what are you wittering on about" (if they notice me at all). Still - kids eh.

We were up vaguely in your neck of the woods (I think) over the weekend Sarah having a first ever visit to the Cotswolds. Charming part of the world. Saw Harry Potter's cloisters and everything.