Now before I say anything, please know that I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone so please, no one get mad at me.

In regards to LadyMoonlights post, while it is true that we all have the organs to sing with, that does not mean that everyone has the same voice, or the same ability to produce that voice. I'm not saying that one voice is any better than another, just that they are all different, unique to each individual. That is one thing that makes singing so cool! I'm sure you have a lovely voice, Lady Moonlight. Good luck, and keep singing!

*grin*

aww I think usually you post very interestingly (is that a word) and it was the content not the intent that I disagreed with - as regards not getting at each other/hetting overly het up, I'm with you all the way! (though don't always manage to practice what I preach )


Yes, it is beautiful, even though I am biased! HP's cloisters - the ones in Gloucester Cathedral or elsewhere?? They used several locations, though I know a lot of it was Gloucester and Durham (two of "my" cities) which made watching the first film doubly fun... "Hey, look, that's..." and, "Oh yeah I saw the fake snow when they were filming that scene!"

I happen to think (in my very biased opinion naturally!) that my particular bit of Gloucestershire - where it joins Herefordshire and Worcestershire in our little corner - is one of the most beautiful and unspoilt pieces of Englishness in existence... little villages, fields of hops and corn, rolling hills... and not at all touristy! I often think how lucky I am to live in such a lovely corner of the world!

I'm glad you enjoyed the Cotswolds! (they're nice too )

It's the ones in Laycock Abbey [subsequent edit; sorry - it's spelt "Lacock"]. It's only quite a small quadrangle, but it's still rather nice, and round the outside of the cloisters there's a number of large rooms, one of which has the most fantastic acoustics I can remember. My little girl started singing in there and some tourists came scooting in to catch the tail end! The village was lovely, as well - there was a little craft fair going on in the village hall.

Your corner of three counties sounds lovely. I must say I've renewed my interest in finding nice bits of England after this trip - I've tended to find a lot of places rather uninspiring in the past.


Sorry Lady Moonlight for going off topic - I shall try to fizzle out now!

Ahhh, I know of laycock without actually knowing it - it's supposed to be lovely!

yes, I rather like our little corner of the world... it has some truly beautiful bits of countryside and towns - more obvious things like the Malvern hills, and then less obvious attractions like the rolling countryside and towns with timberframed houses, and little villages such as the one where my mum lives with a village green, a tiny school and church - a real little English village, but not in a ridiculously picture-postcard way but just somewhere people still live and everyone knows each other etc etc!

Anyway. Yeah. Back to the subject at hand!

'Kay. I'm a lot younger than you (and by singer standards I'm still a baby) but hear me out. I've been there.

Everything you've written about this teacher raises red flags. You're not reaching your full potential because nobody's shown you how to. The vowel distortion, the lack of vibrato and support are ALL relatively simple things which a good teacher would be able to address.



This is something I feel very strongly about. *Very* strongly. It is patently untrue. You do not have to have an incredible talent to learn how to sing beautifully. If you can carry a tune (and even those who can't can be taught in time) you can sing. I don't dispute for a second that instinctively knowing good technique is going to help you and save you a lot of hours, but it isn't the be-all and end-all (after all, such instinct is only present in a very select number of people). I strongly believe that the most important thing is finding the right teacher. A good teacher will ALWAYS be able to bring a beautiful sound out of you - "talent" (or the lack thereof) will only affect the amount of time this takes to happen.

Even by only having read these posts, I can tell that your teacher is not the right teacher. From what you have said, she seems to be telling you what you're doing wrong, without explaining why or how you can rectify this. I would imagine that this is because she's worked with a number of talented students in the past who "haven't needed her help" (the certain Welsh singer being a classic example - very talented, horrible technique which she's never addressed because she's never been told she needs to).

Too many teachers make this mistake (my previous teacher was one of them). Because they can get a fabulous sound out of one student in the short term, they assume that any shortcomings another student may have can't possibly be their own fault. They forget that they have to TEACH, not just sit at the piano and compliment/insult accordingly.

You are not Charlotte Church. You do not have a phenomenal natural talent. BUT you have a love for the art and a willingness to work, which will make you a better singer in the long term.

I've rambled a lot, and I hope I've made sense. The advice that I'm coming down to is this - find another teacher. Look around, do a couple of taster sessions with different people until you find one who's using technique that makes sense to you and is comfortable, and one who you can get on with as a person. After what you've been through it is VERY important that your teacher can promote your confidence and support you.

The very best of luck to you *hugs*.

-Emma

Hi Emma. Welcome to the forums!

That makes a lot of sense.

How long have you been singing? Do tell us a bit more about yourself and what you like to sing etc.

Don't despair, I didn't learn to sing in tune untill I was in my 50's. After over half a lifetime of being "tone-deaf", using common sense and loads of determination I finaly taught myself to sing. I tried my newly acquired skills on Karaoke and have had many compliments on my singing voice.
Rod Stewart on Michael Parkinson's chatshow recently summed up singing in just a few words. To quote, "singing is just muscle memory". I was surprised to read comments from other forumites regarding listening to yourself to see if the notes you are singing sound OK. Once the note is out of the mouth it is too late if it is off pitch. Singers
To release your voice you must first KNOW YOUR SONG! This means rehearsing it untill it becomes a part of you. Once you reach this stage you can then concentrate on releasing your inner potential. Believe me it is there.
I know from personal experience that stress can have a detrimental effect on the voice. I lost my speaking voice after a stressfull period in my life and was refered to the Speech Therapy depatment in our local hospital. There I learned that most vocal problems stem from tension in the triangle formed by the head and shoulders. Perhaps your dissapoinment has resulted in stress causing you to tighten up in this area. Do some stretching excercises to free up the neck and shoulder muscles, or try the Alexander Technique.
In the words of Calvin Carter (ex US President) "Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent".

Don't despair, I didn't learn to sing in tune untill I was in my 50's. After over half a lifetime of being "tone-deaf", using common sense and loads of determination I finaly taught myself to sing. I tried my newly acquired skills on Karaoke and have had many compliments on my singing voice.
Rod Stewart on Michael Parkinson's chatshow recently summed up singing in just a few words. To quote, "singing is just muscle memory". I was surprised to read comments from other forumites regarding listening to yourself to see if the notes you are singing sound OK. Once the note is out of the mouth it is too late if it is off pitch.
To release your voice you must first KNOW YOUR SONG! This means rehearsing it untill it becomes a part of you. Once you reach this stage you can then concentrate on releasing your inner potential. Believe me it is there.
I know from personal experience that stress can have a detrimental effect on the voice. I lost my speaking voice after a stressfull period in my life and was refered to the Speech Therapy depatment in our local hospital. There I learned that most vocal problems stem from tension in the triangle formed by the head and shoulders. Perhaps your dissapoinment has resulted in stress causing you to tighten up in this area. Do some stretching excercises to free up the neck and shoulder muscles, or try the Alexander Technique.
In the words of Calvin Carter (ex US President) "Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent".

It amazes me how many people have been told they are tone deaf who aren't. I can think of two singers straight away.

One was told, when a teenager, that she was tone deaf, and the reason was that she couldn't tell whether a series of notes played on the piano was going up or down (which is of course a simple matter of not having been told what "up" and "down" mean in terms of pitch). As an adult, she was constantly being called upon to sing solos in church, and despite the fact that her voice didn't do a lot for me (which i am prepared to admit could have been a matter of envy, plain and simple, since I was never asked) clearly a lot of people thought she was wonderful and certainly there is no question but that she could sing in tune.

The second is in my present church and the reason his singing is regarded as the church's "in-joke" remains a mystery to me after three years at that church: he is one of only three people there who regularly sings a harmony line and in my humble opinion is one of the best singers in the church - but no-one seems to want him to sing at all even as part of a group.

Liz

Two very very good points. I have it on good authority from my singing teacher (who's succeeded with "tone-deaf" pupils of her own many times in the past) that it's possible to "cure" anyone of tone deafness - it just takes time and a great deal of patience to "coordinate" the brain, the ears and the larynx. (I suspect, though, that in LadyMoonlight's case, it's not this, but her more advanced technique, which she needs to refine and which she isn't being given any help to do).

As to the second point, I fully believe that treating singing as muscle memory is the way to go. By listening to the sound you're producing and controlling it accordingly, you aren't doing yourself any favours (since the voice you hear resonating in your head is more often than not nothing like the voice the audience is going to hear). Stopping controlling the sound, and starting to control the muscles which produce it, has helped me more than anything. Kudos to Rod Stewart

(As to introducing myself [by request of Emma C, lol] I'm not quite sure where to do it. Just in this thread? Or is there somewhere specifically for introductions? Sorry. Am a bit silly *blushes*.)

Two very very good points. I have it on good authority from my singing teacher (who's succeeded with "tone-deaf" pupils of her own many times in the past) that it's possible to "cure" anyone of tone deafness - it just takes time and a great deal of patience to "coordinate" the brain, the ears and the larynx. As to the second point, I fully believe that treating singing as muscle memory is the way to go. By listening to the sound you're producing and controlling it accordingly, you aren't doing yourself any favours (since the voice you hear resonating in your head is more often than not nothing like the voice the audience is going to hear). Stopping controlling the sound, and starting to control the muscles which produce it, has helped me more than anything. Kudos to Rod Stewart

(As to introducing myself [by request of Emma C, lol] I'm not quite sure where to do it. Just in this thread? Or is there somewhere specifically for introductions? Sorry. Am a bit silly *blushes*.)

[/quote]


Here will do nicely if you like there's nowhere specifically for introductions - unless you wnat to start a new thread with yourself as the topic!

I look forward to it.

There is soooo much to be said for muscle memory. I didn't realise that til this week. Bit of a breakthrough really and made me so excited (funny really!) I've been working on this piece and my teacher said 'that 'never' needs to be much brighter and more forward.' Didn't have a clue what she was on about until I went home and messed about with the placing. And bingo!!!! I get it now....

A quick reply so Satine. It's nice that you agree with some of the points I made and thanks. I must pick you up on one point however and that is that not everyone can be taught to sing. There is a brain condition known as congenital amusia which prevents sufferers from being able to recognise musical pitch or rhythm. Apparently Chez Guevarra was a victim of this brain disorder. To people who suffer from this, music sounds as one writer put it "like a car door slamming". About 5% of the population have this disability.
One other thing someone may be able to enlighten me on, are these so called singing teachers actually voice coaches. My own interpretation of this is that a singing teacher teaches you how to sing and once you can sing then a voice coach takes over and shows you how to get the best from your newly acquired skill. Surely they are not the same thing.
PS. One day I may finally work out how to post correctly on this site.

[quote=David Connley,Aug 22 2005, 06:52 PM]
A quick reply so Satine. It's nice that you agree with some of the points I made and thanks. I must pick you up on one point however and that is that not everyone can be taught to sing. There is a brain condition known as congenital amusia which prevents sufferers from being able to recognise musical pitch or rhythm. Apparently Chez Guevarra was a victim of this brain disorder. To people who suffer from this, music sounds as one writer put it "like a car door slamming". About 5% of the population have this disability.[/quote]

I stand corrected. I'd never heard of congenital amusia, but looking it up, you're very much right *blushes*...sorry, lol. A lot of the people I know who are/were supposedly "tone-deaf" could hear distinct pitches in music, but just couldn't replicate said pitches with their own voice. 5% makes for an awful lot of people who can't appreciate music at all .

[quote=David Connley,Aug 22 2005, 06:52 PM]
One other thing someone may be able to enlighten me on, are these so called singing teachers actually voice coaches. My own interpretation of this is that a singing teacher teaches you how to sing and once you can sing then a voice coach takes over and shows you how to get the best from your newly acquired skill. Surely they are not the same thing.
PS. One day I may finally work out how to post correctly on this site.

[/quote]

[URL=http://
http://www.leannehoad.com.au/resourcecentr...svoicecoach.asp]This site[/URL] gives a pretty good explanation of this. I would say your description is pretty much on target, though a lot of singing teachers double as voice coaches and some people go to both at the same time.


(and on another subject entirely...)

[quote Emma C] Here will do nicely if you like [/quote]

Okay, an introduction. I'm a soprano (hoping [and very tentatively expecting] to be a lyric coloratura, but I'm still a baby so it's too early to tell ) I live in Berkshire, and I've been singing for eight or nine years, most of which were with a terrible singing teacher who wrecked my voice and landed me with a horrible vocal thing called muscular diplophonia. My new teacher is an absolute LEGEND and has changed my voice completely...I'm learning from scratch, only just now being let loose on repertoire again, but it's so exciting to hear how different (and how much better) I sound. One day *crosses fingers* I'd like to do opera (I can dream, can't I? ). In the last six months I've become very interested in the physiological side of singing, and it's great to be able to talk to other singers... most of my friends aren't musicians, and none are singers. Lovely to be here


LadyMoonlight...I'm veering further and further off-topic, and I'm sorry. Have there been any developments with your singing teacher? Has she been any more helpful, or is she standing her ground? I hope things are going better for you. Let us know...

EDIT: I have no idea why the coding in this post isn't working. My apologies.

Wow! Sounds great. I chnaged teacher a year ago - I've only been singing about two and a half years - but the best thing I did. Not easy to make the decision, but like you, I've come on leaps and bounds. There's no way I'll go onto a career in music - too old!!! I might join our semi-professional local opera company though. If I'm brave enough...

Are you planning on going to college to do training? Really exciting!

I'd love to, but I'm not sure if I'll have time to get good enough. I've just finished my GCSEs (results Thursday, ahahahaha ) which gives me two years, but I'm thinking about taking a gap year just to work solidly on singing...I don't know yet.



Do iiiiiiiiit! *cheers Emma C*

Incidentally, my name's Emma as well

Right! *ahem* Really, am back on the topic now *beams*.

My little sister is getting her GCSE results this week too - must write myself a reminder to get her a pressie. (finds pink pos-it notes...)

Hope all goes really well for you. Fingers crossed.

Are you doing Grades at the moment too? I'm preparing for my grade 7, though after tomorrow's lesson I might give it up as a bad job....My aural is just awful, and I've got bits of learned songs going round my head, but usually the first couple of verses and not the whole lot. I wake up in the middle of the night with bits of Italian all in the wrong order....

Oh to be young and have a brain again!

I shouldn't worry too much about that. I did the trnity College Performer's Certificate in singing and forgot the words towards the end of "Una Donna a quindiciani", ended up singing "fa si ubi dir si fa si ubi dir si fa si ubi dir si fa si ubi dir ....." ... still passed.

Liz

I've stopped doing grades for now while I get my technique back up to speed, since I'm basically starting again. Before my voice screwed up on me I was working towards Grade 8, and I'll probably go back to that when I'm ready. It'll be a while, though.

Out of interest, how much theory have you done? I found that working on Grade 6 theory and above helped me a lot when I was preparing for the later aural exams. And the Italian in the wrong order...yes. I used to get that (oh to have a brain at ALL!). That's the best thing about only having done exercises for the past three months...no words to forget...

Elidatrading...your "Una Donna" anecdote made me laugh. A lot. Did you go to the end of the song doing that? And did the examiner pick up on it?

Ahem, EmmaC, you are still young. And you'll be fine in your exam - honest!

Cheers

Katyjay

It's all relative! I'm old when I'm chatting with a 'sweet sixteen'

Hi everyone and thanks for all your responses.

Well I'm working on Grade 4 work with my new singing teacher. I know this means that any dreams of getting to Grade 8 will have to be seriously shelved for the moment and that depresses me slightly as at 33 time is not on my side.

I am going back to do the second year of my music A level this September so that will be good, although seeing as my singing standard has now dropped down to Grade 4 I will not be able to use my voice as the instrument for the performance part of the course, as you have to be Grade 5 or above for A Level performance. Thats a very depressing thought as well. I will have to start working on my piano and violin again as I have passed Grade 5 in both of them. Why is it that the thing I seem to be least talented in is the thing I love the most?

As for being tone-deaf - no I'm not tone deaf, I just don't seem to be able to produce my voice in a professional and decent way.

Thanks Emma. I feel you have been spot on about my teacher. She wanted young stars in the making. It hurt me that I could never do anything to please her.

The one I had before her made everything seem like so much hard work. Singing didn't come naturally to me with her, it was a supreme effort.

The teacher I'm with now is trying to get me to do some simpler stuff, not opera or anything heavy, just some Lieder and simple Purcell of Grade 4 standard, and to lighten up my voice. I've actually felt little shimmers of vibrato coming in when I sing in very relaxed mode, but I still worry about the tone I produce when I have to vary my pitcha lot, like in octave leaps. My teacher thinks I am more of a mezzo- I have very little flexibility up high and I don't feel comfortable doing it, but if I could find a style of classical singing which really suited me I would be happy.

Random, but... sounds like you'll fit in well then!

LadyMoonlight - you have a PM from me! I am sure that once you have unlearned all the horrible technique (and negativity) of your old teacher things will start to come much more easily. Also, if she's had you singing soprano when actually you are a mezzo, no wonder you were struggling give it time and I am sure you will find you're on the right road.

Lady Moonlight

I'm really glad you've come back to tell us about your change of teacher. I'm sure this will be the best help for you.

And going "back to basics" for a while until your voice settles and you are totally comfortable with your singing again is no bad thing. At that point you'll probably find your progress speeds up dramatically.

I'm going to contradict you on one point, though. Time IS on your side - you're only 33. I didn't even start singing lessons until I was 35 1/2 - and I'm now at the grand old age of (just turned) 38 working for a LTCL diploma and trying to figure out where I go next with this singing lark......

Grade 4 is a good starting point. You don't need to "shelve" your plans to get to Grade 8, though. There's no law that says you have to do all the grades consecutively, or that you have to take a long time between them. It all depends on your comfort level and your confidence. For example,having started lessons in January 03, I took my Grade 5 in December 03 and my Grade 8 three months later in March 04 - but I was learning my repertoire for Grade 8 a bit before I took the Grade 5, and I got distinctions in both. I did the Grade 5 exam mainly as "exam practice" - perhaps you should think of your Grade 4 as one practice run on the way to the higher grades.

Grades aren't the be-all and end-all, though. Just as important is increasing your experience - this will help your voice too. Widen your repertoire and try new music, sing with choirs or musical theatre groups, look for masterclasses and summer courses, ENJOY singing for the fun of it as well as for study.

And please keep posting to share how you're getting on.

Best of luck

Cheers

Katyjay

Just like to back up KatyJay's point here- I had regular training in my second year of uni (before then, it was just a few lessons when I could afford it). Not a grade to my name and then by the end of the degree I took my ATCL and passed. Grade 8 is much more about just opening your mouth and singing, there are sightsinging tests and aurals which are pretty tough at grade 8, so think of grade 4 as a launchpad for bigger things. As for being a mezzo-join the club! You're much more interesting than the hoards of twittering little sopranos and can get a terrific sound in that dramatic range (sorry sops, just bitter I can't get them high notes...! )
keep going, we're all behind you. Once you get the techinique up to scratch, it gets a LOT easier!

JW

Thanks everyone

I think the problem I have had is that singing has not come "naturally" to me. Some people seem to open their mouth and a decent sound comes out which might just need a little tweaking here and there. That doesn't happen with me. I think in some ways, singing lessons made it worse as I didn't always understand what I was being told to do and started doing things wrongly.

Its different with dance - I never seems to have a problem with learning steps or technique in dance. It usually wouldn't take long for things to "click" and then once I understood how it was meant to "feel" and look, I could work on making it better and better and more professional. But with singing I still feel that I'm waiting for it to "click".

Katyjay, you did really well to get from beginner to diploma in under three years! This is what I mean when I say it just doesnt come naturally. I've been taking singing lessons on and off, for more than three years but it still isn't working right and it still hasn't "clicked" and I'm nowhere near diploma standard! does this mean I never will be. The teacher I have just left says that I never will be because "my mind doesn't work like a singers'". I don't want to give up but I am afraid that it will never click and I just wasn't meant to be a singer.

Hi Lady Moonlight



I suspect you're right that singing lessons with two problem teachers have made it worse, and have effectively "stopped" your natural singing, but I'd be very surprised if singing had never come naturally to you! Think back fifteen or twenty years to when you were in school - could you sing then? Did you have to think about it then? I'll bet you didn't. That naturalness of singing is crucial, and it's one of the things bad teaching kills.




And did you feel this "click" in your very first ballet class? Or did it take time? Give yourself some time with the voice, it'll come back. Especially with your new teacher, who sounds to have a much better attitude. Singing is relaxation, and it'll only come "naturally" when you're totally relaxed and trust your voice to do its work.



Don't measure yourself compared with me, or your ex-teacher's pet pupil or anyone else. I only put what I did in to demonstrate that you're not too old. Think of it this way: I took thirty-seven years to get to diploma standard - you may well beat me on that one! But if you don't so what? You're you, I'm me, we're both singers but we're different. And when we're sixty, we'll both be experienced musicians for whom the initial struggle will be a distant memory.

I have days when the mechanics of my voice just don't work (e.g. yesterday - see my thread "Gloom" on the Adult Learners' board) or days when I hear a "real" (i.e. professional, did the training in their early twenties etc) singer and realise how far I am from what they're doing. And I have other days when my voice works just right and I'm flying. One of the great things about posting on this forum is that (almost) everyone supports you regardless of the setbacks, and we're all in the same boat.

And just remember why your ex-teacher is your ex-teacher. Her attitude is completely wrong. So don't dwell on it.

My best advice to you is to sing as much as you can, in as many different situations. Join a choir or two, or a musical theatre group, or a jazz club, and enjoy the social side of music. It'll give you a very different perspective on how you're doing. And the more experience of singing in those circumstances you can get, the better. You will sing in a much less self-conscious fashion, and your "natural" voice may well come back.

Good luck

cheers

Katyjay

Katyjay, I didn't seem to have a problem singing when I was about 11 or 12, indeed I joined the school choir and was occasionally picked for solos. I doubt it was amazing, but I guess it was tuneful and pleasant enough or I wouldn't have been picked. But then I didn't really do anything with it until I was about 16, when I tried out for the school Eisteddfod, and was laughed at and told my voice was horrible and out of tune. After that I decided I must be "tone deaf" and never opened my mouth to sing until I started having singing lessons with a friend when I was about 27.

It just sounds horrible now.

I can't get the idea of "support" right at all. I don't know how its meant to feel. My last teacher used to talk about pulling up my abdomen, and keeping it pulled up and the previous teacher used to talk about filling up with air until I was "big" all round and keeping my abdomen area "out". I can't see how either of these things related to singing or how they were supposed to support your voice. I sing from the throat a lot I think but I'm not sure how not to. I don't really know how to sing from the diaphragm. I thought I was making good progress towards supported singing with my last teacher (slow but good) until she ran out of patience with me because she hadn't got a proper sounding voice out of me after three months of lessons and then declared that she could not teach me classical stuff because "I wasn't up to it" and all she would teach me was basic popular stuff because I had "no talent". That just upset me and I gave up on her.

Singing teachers tell me to "support" and when I ask what that means they just talk about "the diaphragm" etc and give various versions of how to do it but none of it makes sense to me. Even my current teacher can't seem to explain it in a way that make sense.

I also don't know how to make the vowels sounds right. They can sound harsh. and sometimes my pitch goes out a little bit. I also don't know how bad I sound until I listen to myself on a recording. I hate my voice. Sorry I'm just really down at the moment.

Lady Moonlight, I really sympathise with you with this 'support' business.

I'm a flautist, and the same things are said to flautists. 'Support from the diaphragm' but no-one has ever explained it in a way that makes it simple. All I can say is, sometimes when I play I am supporting, and a lot of the time I'm not, and I can hear the difference between them. And, by golly, there is a difference.

It seems to happen naturally when I'm relaxed, or concentrating on something else, but as soon as I try to do it, I fail, tense up, and then feel as if I'm drowning (and my playing gets panicky).

One thing I found helpful a few days ago was 'support from the floor'. I try and feel my sound coming up from my feet, and, at least some of the time, this works.

I've found it's a bit like learning to swim. You have to be relaxed enough to float, and once you can do it, you can't imagine not being able to. I'm at the stage where I can float some of the time. Once I can do it all the time, I'm sure I'll lose the memory of what it feels like not to be able to do it. This is why, I think, that it's so difficult to teach it to someone else, and why I've never found an explanation that works all the time.

Ok, so the fact that you sang well enough to be a soloist when you were a youngster proves you're not tone deaf or incapable of singing.

The fact that you've then had a sucession of unsatisfactory teachers is very bad luck, rather than inability on your part.

"Support" is a tricky one to explain. And indeed it seems a lot of people try to support the sound in a number of wierd and wonderful ways - which might work for them but don't for anyone else. So here's my own take on "support" - it works for me this way:

For me, support happens when my whole body is physically relaxed and I put all my mental and physical energy into the music.
I don't make conscious muscle movements, and certainly don't do anything to my diaphragm or throat, I put all my concentration into enjoying the sound that comes out - whether or not anyone else does .
I describe it as singing with the whole of me - not from the neck up, or the diaphragm up, but from the toes up.
If the air coming out from inside me is relaxed and energised, the voice will be supported, otherwise it won't.
If I try to intervene and make my diaphragm or throat or abdominal muscles do something, the result is a nasty, unsupported, strangulated squeak.
My body knows how to breathe rather better than my mind does, so I have to let it get on with it.

One way to feel support is to give a really heavy sigh. Then once your breath has come in again, do the sigh again, but as soon as it's started let a note from the middle of your range come out to "yah".
Imagine that note disappearing off into the ether, and notice how your body feels as the breath begins to run out.
If it's a sensation that every drop of air from your body is going into the sound, then you'll feel and hear real support. And your body will automatically take another breath ready for the next sound.
So the next time, try it without doing the sigh first, just relax the breath out and see what happens......

Pitch is another tricky area. When I sing, I have to trust that the note that comes out will be right - if I do that it usually is.
If I try to intervene and "pitch" the note, I almost always miss.
So it would appear that my body is better at pitch than my mind is!

A similar thing works for me with pronunciation.
If I try to pronounce vowels when I sing, they'll go wrong.
If I speak the words before I sing them, and then just let them come out the same shape in singing as they did in speaking, with no extra intervention, they will sound better.
Once that's cracked, the fancy technical stuff like diphthongs can be sorted out later, but getting the basics sorted first is important.

This is rather a ramble, but it may give you some ideas to try out. Good luck.

Cheers

Katyjay

That's so amazingly helpful, Katyjay, because it matches an awful lot of my experience. It is this 'relaxed' business that's the key, isn't it. I found last week, interestingly, that I could do it in my lesson, but not at home. I've suddenly become much more relaxed in my flute lessons for some reason.

The current new thought in the area of wind playing (at least Down Here) is that teachers should stop talking about the diaphragm, because all it does is confuse the students. "Use your diaphragm", what does that mean?

Katyjay was spot on about support meaning being relaxed about it. "Supporting" is really just an extension of what you do naturally with your breathing and when you think about it too much it just doesnt work properly.

Thanks, katyjay - that made sense to me, too.








edit: you know, you could teach this... ('strue!)

Thanks everyone, especially Katyjay. Thats does make sense. I did find that after I stopped learning with my last teacher, I went back over some of the stuff she'd been doing with me ("Tonight" and "somewhere" from West Side Story) which sounded terrible when i sang it for her and just sang it "my own way" and it felt better (I don't know if it sounded better but I think it did).

I think the problem is also that I don't have much of a range. I can only sound good about an octave over middle C, then it starts sounding a bit strained. I don't really have much flexibilkity and I need to "swoop" a little bit (not huge just little) to get up to high notes. Plus I have no vibrato, unless I'm really relaxed and singing in the lower octave (middle C to an octvae above).

I don't know if this is because I have a really limited range or I'm just "not supporting", but like you said, the more I think about "support" the harder it is to achieve.

I always thought I couldn't sing much more than an octave above middle C, but even just a few hints and a couple of informal lessons informed me I can actually get to that A when really warmed up! However it doesn't sound very confident or strong yet. I think you have to learn how to make use of the extremes of your voice, and they can become considerably better, and you can even discover bits of range you didn't know you had.... check out this thread: extending range

hope you're feeling a bit more positive you have email by the way - sorry I waffled a bit!!

I've been away for a bit, but I just checked back here, and LadyMoonlight, I'm so happy for you that you took the plunge and finally changed singing teachers. It sounds as though your new teacher is taking the right approach in not doing too much too soon, and sooner or later you'll find things starting to fall into place. I suspect that the reason you've felt you haven't progressed much even after having sung for three years is because during those three years you were being given a lot of useless information.

The one thing that does concern me a lot is that you say your current teacher can't explain diaphragm support. If a teacher isn't making sense, say so. Get her to physically put her hands on you if necessary and tell you what to do step by step. It's probably a good idea to talk to her properly and explain that you're having trouble understanding. If she's a good teacher, she'll be only too happy to help.

The very best of luck. I look forward to hearing about your progress.

-Emma

And conflicting information, which is almost worse - trying to use two opposite techniques or just ones that aren't completely complementary and trying to add on to previous knowledge when what you're being told seems to conflict it will leave anyone totally confused!

Lady Moonlight, remember also that the voice is unique in being a living thing. If your instrument is a flute or a piano you know that unless you abuse it (extremes of temperature, say), it will sound the same, and all you have to do is work on your part. With the voice, if you have a bad day, chances are, it will too (ref some of katyjay's other posts).

I'm convinced my voice has a personality all of its own - it's a lot more insecure and introverted than I am, for example, and is easier to demoralise. If I'm tired, stressed, angry or depressed, my voice picks up on that and has a bad day. It has whole bad months during summer (hayfever)! I hang on, though, because when I have a good day it all becomes worthwhile.

Now, never having heard your voice I can't make any judgements about your standard. BUT, having seen your other posts, I could say that you're feeling demoralised, angry and down, so of course your voice is having a bad time. Under those circumstances I would be amazed if you could get anything like your best from it. Ease up on the pressure you are giving it (and yourself), and give it time. Think of it as a small extra personality inside you and give it some positive stress-free experiences to make it happy - choirs, concerts, singing in the bath, even! Then you'll start to feel the difference.

Keep posting and don't give up on it!

I love that idea!!

I did think about perhaps starting a new thread: "What sort of animal is your voice?" I think mine would probably be some kind of small fluffy mammal, can be quite sweet & entertaining, but has a tendency to run away and hide in stressful situations (like people listening to it...)

dude i have two words for you: bob dylan. generally not that great of a voice. but he just had so much...desire of music that he has one of the most respected voices today. sing with passion, have a desire to learn more, and practice, practice, practice.

I hope your small fluffy mammal won't run away on Saturday! Sounds ideal for your duet, though - the mammal, I mean, not the running away!

well tough toenails

That isn't very nice

Don't worry. I'm sure Alto X thinks she's terribly funny. I'm sure, of course that, she is a WONDERFUL singer who has NEVER been told she has no talent and will shortly be taking the world by storm with her phenomenal gifts . . . I look out for her next multi-million selling album to hit the charts. I hear queues are already forming. . .

Oh yes of course

LadyMoonlight, I've only just found this thread but am convinced that all you need are some confidence and more lessons with your new teacher - she sounds much better than the last one. You're right that part of singing ability is what we're born with - our particular muscle, larynx and respiratory makeup means that some people have naturally dazzling (if unrefined) voices and the rest of us don't. But far more important than having such a "gift" is what we do with what we're given, and I personally believe that most people can learn to sing well. I don't have a good voice or a natural flair for singing. At 7, I was the only girl in my class left out of the choir because I didn't have enough control to sing in tune, despite being a good recorder player. I'm now a 28 year old clarinet teacher and I still don't have a good voice. But I sang in the choir at secondary school because I wanted to, and have been teaching myself to sing better by singing in the car for the last 3 years! Last year I decided I wanted to do grade 1 in something, so I learned some songs from the syllabus, got a clarinet pupil (who's also a pretty good pianist) to accompany me and took Grade 1 singing. I got 127 marks, which made me happy considering my lack of natural ability and the fact that I hadn't had any lessons. A term later I went in for grade 2 and had a couple of lessons beforehand, and got 138! Then I decided to miss out grade 3 and try for grade 4 this summer. Again I had two lessons, and I got 127 again, the same mark as in my grade 1 the previous year. I think that's as far as I'm going to go, but I'm so proud to have achieved that and to have taken up singing as a hobby when clarinet/ sax (and basic piano) teaching is my job. I'm not posting this to show off in any way. As I've already said, I really don't think I'm any good, I just use the average voice I've been given as a tool, an instrument, and try as hard as I can. If I can manage, you definitely can. There's no way I'd have been able to sing solos as a child like you could. And you're not too old either - you might have another 50 years of singing in you. For now you should really enjoy building up your technique and singing in different styles again, and I think grade 4 is a great place to start - that means you've already put in roughly the same amount of work as it would take to achieve a GCSE in singing (if it were available). I'm sure that grade 8 isn't out of the question for the future - who knows? Maybe even I could do it if I were prepared to put in the work? I don't know about that, but I do have too many "projects" on the go, including my first baby, which is due in a month!!! violin (another little hobby), folk, composing, and still trying to improve my playing on the instruments I teach. Good luck for the future and keep us informed.