I've also posted in the Viva Voice section but I though this might be relevant to this board as well.

I'm 33 and have been having lessons on and off for a few years. Recently I auditioned for lessons at the Welsh College of Music and Drama and was told I had no ability or instinct for singing and was turned down. I then started taking lessons with a very reputable teacher, who has trained a few professionals among them one fairly well-known young Welsh female singer) and she has now basically told me the same thing. When I started taking lessons with her my confidence grew and I felt I was doing really well, but now my progress has slowed down and she has basically said there's no point in us doing classical stuff or exams and proper training because I can't do it. She'll teach me a few simple songs to sing at amateur dramatic level and thats it. She said that I would have needed to start singing as a child if I wanted to be a professional and my age and lack of ability means there's little she can do with me.

I'm heartbroken. I had dreams of doing all my grades and singing really beautiful pieces like Dido's lament and Samson et Dalilah but I've been told I'm just not "good enough". She tells me that beautiful voices are a musical gift and they can't be manufactured. I just don't have the gift and it hurts so much because I really want it. I keep hoping that somehow I can make my voice beautiful but I don't know how. I just feel I need some advice. Has anyone else been in this situation? Does anyone think there's any hope for me? I've also taken piano and violin lessons - have done OK in violin (Grade 5 - haven't had lessons for a year) but failed my Grade 6 piano and haven't had the courage to do anything more with it. I don't know whether I should carry on, my boyfriend says its a waste of money and he resents the time I spend practisiing when I could be with him, plus it is hard to fit it all in when there's a job, housework etc to do.

Dear Lady Moonlight,

I've always loved dance and have studied for years - did a few workshops that's about it. Every dance teacher I had always said musical, too tall - I wish I had a quarter for every time I was told that. Still keep my toes going, although my teacher with whom I've been with longer than we want to admit teaches only once a week. I now take piano lessons and have been for about 4 1/2 years and I'm in my 60's. This is something I've always wanted to learn and enjoy every minute of it - ups and downs etc.

It's wrong for teachers to discourage students from taking lessons whether singing, dance or music - try to find a teacher who will teach you to sing well and encourage you to pursue your dreams. Singing covers a lot of territory, there are many styles, classical may not be for you, I don't know - it could be musical comedy, ballads who knows - it's important to get the best training you can and see what happens. Don't let anyone stop you from pursuing your dreams. I went to college at night and one of my college professors said that and he was in show business.

I think it would be a shame not to at least try, you are young and you don't want to let the years fly by and say " I shoulda done it when I could".

What a shame. But if you are impelled by music you won't suppress it that easily. Teachers have a double-edged sword - if they discourage, claiming you have no ability, remember that it's them who can't teach you. To that extent they have failed. It must be possible to guide someone through to grade 8 if they are willing to work hard.

You can't even claim that operatic singing is out of reach because of age. It's said that you reach a peak in athletic activities but your body and abilities don't just suddently collapse when you turn 30. You have time to get all your grades if you want them and have the will. And you never know what might crop up on the way.
Your boyfriend will have to put up with your music one way or another - if you aren't practicing you're probably thinking about it. And sitting on a sofa watching TV or going out to 'be entertained' will eventually wear thin. I sometimes think that music is a symptom of things far deeper so purging it is out of the question. People have enough trouble stopping smoking so how could you root out music? Stop......and in ten years' time you'll curse yourself.

There's no reason why you shouldn't keep practicing the pieces you love. Form the sound that you want to make in your mind then coax it out. Keep going with the piano too. Above all, cultivate the realisation that music is for pleasure, yours and those you entertain with it. Find a teacher sympathetic to your problem who will help you through anyway.



I'm in a similar situation on violin but to those around me I made my intentions clear about practice etc. I'll never be a professional but I'd like to join a local orchestra in a couple of years.

Talent is nice but it isn't everything and it comes in degrees.

Sad indeed. Too many people become teachers without really thinking about their responsibilities and the harm they can do (and seem to have done in your case). I've looked through a few posts on this site and the number of pupils afraid of aural tests or theory, or asking questions that they seem unable to ask their teacher, tells me that many teachers are failing. No worse than any other area of knowledge like at schools. Many, like yours, 'give up' without ever considering their own limitations. Some do it from just snootiness, like: you aren't good enough to be taught by me! I'd say that teaching is the ability to motivate and inspire above all, then have enough technical and general subject knowledge to guide someone through what they are trying to teach.

It isn't always the teacher's fault. The relationship between a particular teacher and pupil may not work. And some younger pupils obviously don't practice so it must be an uphill struggle.


Some people do seem to have this "musical gift". An accomplished teacher could go a long way to developing it. All right, no one can teach someone to be an artist but they could develop someone's abilities if the pupil is eager and willing whereon the pupils themselves may discover their art.

If you can bear to, try another teacher. Keep going. I agree with Thisisus, you can't purge music from yourself and if you could you might offend deeper things. If your boyfriend really can't go along with your musical aspirations that may be another problem to deal with.

If you really want to, go climb up the grades. You have plenty of time. Don't lose heart. Being keen on music is a precious gift.
Good luck.

Yes. I really do recommend that you try to find a teacher more in tune with your aspirations.

Here's a true story I hope will encourage you.

I took an enquiry from an adult student a few months ago. She referred to herself as a beginner, and she came across as tentative and diffident. Before we met, over the course of a few e-mails it came out that she'd had a consultation lesson with a teacher last year which had been quite negative, and left her feeling totally demoralised, thinking that this was something she couldn't do.

I didn't really have room, but it felt important to see this lady and at least give her some positive feedback. It had taken a great deal of courage to contact another teacher after her first experience, and partly because of this she had not presented herself to me in the best light, but had sold herself short.

It turned out that she was not a beginner at all, but was playing pieces of around grades 2 to 4 standard. She was partly self-taught and had a few gaps - but she seemed to me eminently promising. We had a couple of sessions; she is keen and works hard. I found her so positive that I made space in my timetable for her.

I am telling you this to demonstrate that teachers' reactions will vary enormously. I'm not a singing teacher, but the same guidelines apply - find someone who gives you confidence and who you click with: be honest about your goals and I hope next time works out better for you.

Certainly don't give up on it!

Agree with all. With a job and housework, and boyrfriend practice time may be limited so best to concentrate on just singing with enough piano to accompany yourself.

A new teacher, definitely.

If you got to grade 5 don't lose touch with the violin altogether. When more time is available you might want to play in an amatuer orchestra. My friend joined one at grade 5 as a 2nd and she's really come on with it.

I find it strange that any teacher would want to discourage a student like this. Surely she should be trying to build up your confidence at this stage and developing your enthusiasm for singing. I agree with what other people have said - find a new teacher, one who has faith in you and who believes that, with practice and the right tuition, you will one day be able to sing Dido's Lament.

As someone who can't sing for toffee, I know that not everyone has the talent to star at Covent Garden, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't be taught to sing. After all, you must have considerable inate musical ability if you've reached Grade 5 Violin! And 33 is definitely not too old for anything!

P.S. Who was the well-known Welsh female singer? Not Charlotte Church, I hope!

Isn't it Katherine Jenkins? (I may be wrong - but I think she's a young famous opera singer.)

Thanks everyone for your suportive comments. I'm glad to have found a board like this full of like-minded people.

Yes, the "well known Welsh female singer" who my teacher discovered and was the driving force behind was the one with the initials "CC". Not Katherine Jenkins (who personally I think its a better singer!)

In that case, I would definitely change the teacher.

Definitely! "I taught Charlotte Church" would see me running for cover... (not a fan...)

Lady Moonlight, please keep us up-to-date - and I agree with everyone who has said to find another teacher.

Don't give up your dream of singing -

So hoping that you feel a little more heartened, LadyMoonlight.
An earlier poster said that teachers CAN be so snobbish and it's probably because she now lives in both the glory and the shadow of CC and thinks that anyone less than an international star isn't worth her attention!

Don't tell her that CC was just plain lucky. Yes, CC is an artist:- a bit of a booze-artist so say even the musical papers.

Lois
ps. Please keep us informed.

I'd agree with a change of teacher (the 'well-known Welsh singer' indeed being a factor but attitude being the main one). I think going for teachers who teach people at a high level does unfortunately lead to increased risk of things like this: they're are only used to teaching the incredibly talented and perhaps only want to, so anyone that's 'normal' they are uninterested in and prone to telling them they're not good. I'd advise going for a teacher who has their feet firmly rooted on the ground and enjoys teaching all abilities; rather than one who feels they want to teach only the most talented of people (unless of course one is a musical genius and gets on well with that teacher). Also I don't know much about singing but from what I've heard on this forum I would question the teacher's wisdom: 'have to start singing as a child' most people say that it's damaging to do so and I believe music colleges won't accept singers until aged 21 so it's not so much a 'have to be young thing'; I've heard something about being younger being better but younger being adult younger not child younger....

Take the instrument you're passionate about and play/sing that one, and only one if your pressed for time. With the right teacher most people are capable of getting well into the grades and indeed do so, talent at this level is not as important as sheer hard work. Becoming professional is a different matter but there's an awful lot of fun to be had at an amateur level, just enjoy your singing and aim to take it as far as you can, I'm sure that you'll be pleased with the results if you work hard .

I agree with the (musical) views everyone here's expresed, and I've made a much longer reply on your Viva Voce thread.

Cheers

Katyjay

Don't let anything stand in the way of what you want to do - certainly not the above. Do what YOU want!! After all, it's your life, and while it's never too late for anything in many respects, you will only regret not having "gone for it" when you first had the opportunity.

I find non-musos are resentful of not just music, but also the time I spend on music (and it's my job!!). I put it down to jealously towards something I can do that they can't, plus the fact that they think I should be taking notice of them instead of the music. I'm fortunate in the fact that my boyfriend is also a professional musician, so we both understand what it's like to have other intense passions and desires in our lives.

Don't give up the singing, there are so many different options - have you thought of singing songs from musicals or films?? I'm sure with the right teacher you would even be encouraged to get involved in either a local operatic society or musical theatre group.

AmandaL - RIGHTON!!! Lady Moonlight should pursue her dreams - no coudas,wouldas, shouldas - my mother used to say "he who hesitates is lost".

Guess by now Lady Moonlight knows that we want her to find a good voice teacher and learn to sing beautiful songs.

Gosh yes .. I'd say this teacher is living in the reflected glory of her famous pupil
( though from her recent visit to NZ and the activities she got up to glory hardly seems the right term)
Change your teacher, find one who will encourage you towards your full potential - whatever that may be. Good luck

Having seen a bit of the aforesaid Welsh singer on a friend's tv this morning (it may have been unfortunate timing but the bit we heard she was soooooooooooooo flat) that reflected glory may well be tarnished in more than one way

I agree totally, but I think this problem arises with almost any hobby that takes time and commitment.
Working in a factory as a student, I met a woman who was being made fun of in a very nasty way by the others. Her crime? To start going to evening classes at the local college.

Perhaps things have changed, but I remember there were always those who seemed to assume that everyone spent their time like them, ie watching tv all evening until bedtime. Possibly they felt jealous.

Steve

No, I think there will always be a core of society who think that way. Often the ones who thought it was cool to remain ignorant and leave school with absolutely no qualifications or aspirations whatsoever.

Only after a few years in the real world - and stacking shelves in a supermarket with no prospect of doing anything else - does it come home to some of them that it wasn't so cool to be ignorant after all.

Yes, the above is follwed by jealousy attacks - you are doing something they can't do, or haven't even got a hope of doing!! Poking fun ensues, but long term it's obvious who ends up with the smug grin and having the last laugh

Thanks everyone.

I must admit to lately feeling rather annoyed by the comments I've received. The awful thing about the RWCMD course is its supposed to be an "access" course - for anyone - and they told me I was too "untalented" to warrant lessons! There seems to be a horrendous, snobbish attitude prevalent among SOME (not all) in the classical music world!

As for this idea of "have to start young" - well what would you say if I told you I knew someone who started BALLET at age 29, passed all her grade exams and the first major exam, and is currently studying for Intermediate major, and has also been told that there is a chance she may be able to teach one day?
You'd think I was lying right? Ballet has to be started as a child?

Actually I'm not lying. I am that person. I started ballet as a complete beginner 4 years ago. I now do regular pointe work classes and am currently studying for Intermediate, having received Grade B's in all my exams so far. Admittedly I'm not Darcy Bussell but thats to be expected - but I'm no different in ability or the stage of my learning than any of the 17-18 year old girls who make up the rest of my exam class. The difference is that some of them will go on to study dance professionally. Some will give up and maybe one or two will go into teaching. My teacher says the latter may be open for me as I have a good understanding of technique.

So there you are. Starting as a child is not always necessary.

So things that you have to start as a child

[quote=AmandaL,Jul 27 2005, 07:14 PM]
[quote]
Only after a few years in the real world - and stacking shelves in a supermarket with no prospect of doing anything else - does it come home to some of them that it wasn't so cool to be ignorant after all.


[/quote]

Sorry just had to take exception to this. Not all people are capable of learning, not all people see stacking shelves as something to be looked down on or belittled. You are has guilty of their ignorance by making over generalised and possibly very hurtfull comments. Ignorance isn't resticted to just the uneducated, low paid and we do tend to treat others in the same way we are treated. Some would say ignorance is more previlent amoung those that believe they are educated, so maybe removing the log from our own eyes, will enable us to see more clearly the splitter in their's.

Sorry rant over... Ill go and sit in the corner and duck !!!!

That's very cool lady moonlight - I'd love to start ballet again, I did it when I was a child but never got very far. I always thought it was way too late to ever think about being able to do pointe work etc! Well... if I ever have transport and money for it...

Point taken, and maybe it did sound like I was generalising, but I didn't intend it that way.

The people who are likely to make fun of those who learn - or study as a mature student - are very likely to be those who are ignorant from choice.

I personally know of people who do have genuine problems with learning, but they are most certainly not the sort who make fun of those who can and do learn. In fact, if anything they admire the people who are able to study. They are often the sort who will confide their educational problems and ask for help when they get letters written or forms completed, and are usually stuck in the jobs they have because they are very aware that it is likely to be the only type of work they will be able to do.

LadyMoonlight,
You have my complete admiration as well as a big THUMBS UP. I'm interested to know what and how many stretching exercises you performed to get the joints and tendons loosened, or have you always been someone who'd got joints like rubber? Also what's the minimum amount of work a day you need to put in to it to keep everything that flexible?

Anyone get the feeling I might be taking this up as well??

glad it isn't just me. I've been doing the New York City Ballet work out (well as much of it as I can manage - ME doesn't allow much energy for loads of activity) and really enjoying it, although I'm glad I do have some formal training to draw on or I think it would be possible to do yourself some damage!

Maybe Lady Moonlight would be willing to give an adult Ballet lesson at one of the adult learners' or board users' concerts but yes, I'm very impressed with that achievement too, it's one I'd like to emulate even if I did never get that far....

Still nursing my childhood ambition to dance en pointe...

no one is too old to start playing (or again) find an inspiration and you'll be a fantastic musician soon enough

Actually I am sorry. I over reacted and should learn to better put my feelings/ideas across.

Sarah-flute, I'm interested to know where you got this from - ie. is it available on DVD, in book form etc??

Depending on where everyone lives, I reckon we all ought to get together on this.
There must be some good exercises one can do to increase 'turnout', especially in hip joints aged 25+. Can LadyMoonlight throw some ideas at us please?



Me too!! I've still got the pointe shoes I bought when I was 15 but never used them I'm sure there must be more comfortable point shoes available now (LadyMoonlight might offer advice here too ) there are even gel toe protectors available these days

Somewhere I still have the pointe shoes a friend gave to me when she got new ones - I could never dance en pointe, lacked both strength and balance, not to mention practice, but I could stand!

I'm glad it isn't just me

The NYCB work-outs are both available on DVD and video, and there is also a book - which I haven't seen so I've no idea what it's like, but people have said it's good. I personally would not recommend the workouts unless you have some idea of the basic ballet posture, I have read so many reviews with people saying "too easy" which it always strikes me especially with the really balletic stuff that it's likely people weren't performing the exercises correctly rather than the workout itself being easy! The 2nd one has a bit more helpful information about that basic stuff. They are not cheap new, but I found both of them on ebay for approx £10 each - it was a while ago now. With my not great health I can't manage the whole thing of either of them, but when I'm doing OK I try to do 3-4 sections each day. There are stretching, strength, floor, barre, etc exercises.

Ballet is great! Good exercise... my legs are STILL more muscled now and far more toned than they have any right to be after being totally unsporty and mostly ill from the age of 11!

Funnily enough, having just seen Lady Moonlight's post about ballet, and thinking maybe it IS worth me looking into, I saw today in work a little advert of someone offering ballet lessons, "children or adults, professional lessons or for fun"!!! I could not believe it. We have a fair number of little adverty things at work, but it's a Christian bookshop and even ads for music lessons aren't that regular - to see ballet lessons advertised just after this conversation blew my mind!

As to location, I'm in between the South West and the Midlands (Gloucestershire to be more exact - we regularly get disowned by each region ), I don't know if there are any other would-be ballet dancers near by...?

Thanks for all your responses. I've currently just got back from Ballet Summer School in Chichester so haven't posted for a while.

As regards flexibility, well I actually "started" dancing at 26 when I began studying Classical Indian Bharatanatyam Dance (which I still do) so I didn't start ballet as a completely inflexible person who hadn't moved a muscle in years, so to speak!

But I basically started off ballet with SIMPLE work. I covered a lot of the basics on a full-time dance training course (didn't finish it because I hated it! I only did 3 months - there were too many different styles and too much concentration on Contemporary which I don't like, but at least it introduced me to ballet! I adored ballet as a child but could never start because my mother could never afford the classes and there was very little encouragement from my family for anythign like that.) which taught me what plies, degages, frappes, grand battements etc were, and then I moved onto studying "regular" grade work in a "regular" grade class - with people much younger than me!

This was hard. The tutors at the full time course told me I was "too old" to take ballet exams and no teacher would accept me at 29. They told me just to take a adult "ballet-cise" class and "have fun with it that way". But I'm afraid once people start talking about "too old" and "can't do it" I just get even more determined to find a way!

I was lucky to find a really good and very nice teacher. She actually has grown up children my age so she didn't think of me as such an ancient at 29 (I'm now 33!) The first class I started was full of 12-13 year olds and I was 29! Luckily I didn't really seem to stand out, I look much younger than my age and the girls just saw me as a "big girl" - most of them thought I was only about 18 or 19! I started off with Grade 4, so no really complicated stuff, just fairly simple technique. Obviously, the lower you go in the grades the younger the other students will be . .

The problem with "adult" classes in ballet is that they tend to have such a wide range of abilities, from people who've never danced before and just want a bit of exercise, to ex-professionals and people who were once of that level. The teacher has to try and cater for everyone, not scaring the beginners and not boring the advanced people. The beginners are self-concious about how "bad" they look in contrast to the more advanced and as a result itsd hard for them to relax and progress. Plus there is a general "you're only doing it for fun theres no point in trying to get better" attitude in many adult ballet classes which is shared by teachers and students alike (I stress SOME - not all!!!)

It depends on what you want to do. If its just exercise and fun you want, then an adult class or a "ballet-cise" class will be just the ticket. If you want to actually try and do your best as far and training goes, maybe take some exams, try to get en pointe etc, then you'll need to find a "regular" teacher who will accept you into her (its usually a her!) "regular" classes - ie this means studying alongside people much younger than yourself. It isn't always easy to find a teacher like this, because age is such a big thing in ballet, and some teachers won't accept you as a "regular student" but if you keep trying you should be able to find one who will.

As I've said, the best thing I can say is start simple, Grade 3 or 4 maybe, expecially if you're worried about flexibility. There's no point jumping straight into an advanced 2 class and trying to get your legs up round your ears if you haven't danced in years or if you've never danced. I study the Checchetti method which is particulary good for creating flexibility as it moves fairly "slowly", establishes good technique, musicality and stamina rather than trying to be too fancy. Maybe take an adult class for a while until you've learned what all the basic exercises are and then try to join a regular grade class if you want to do that so that you can start to actually improve.

I wouldn't say I've always been tremendously flexible, although
I'm not particualry "bad" at flexibility either, probably somewhere in the middle or just above average! I have improved greatly over the last few years, taking 4 dance classes a week (2 x ballet and 2 x Bharatanatyam seem to have helped with this). I think if you have fairly good co-ordination and fairly good sense of body awareness, you should be able to cope with a Grade 3 or 4 class. Then you can start to build up to higher grades. Your teacher can help you work on improving and overcoming any particular problems.

You are supposed to have been dancing for about 2 years before you start pointe. My teacher allowed me to start earlier because me feet and ankles were very strong from Bharatanatyam and I had a good placement and control of my abdominals.

Thanks for all that info, Lady Moonlight!

Shortly after reading this thread I found an ad for adult ballet lessons in my town, so that's my starting point come September! Woohoo! I have ordered some soft shoes as trying to do the NYCB workouts in bare feet is a pain, but now I actually have an excuse to get the shoes *grin*

So the aim is to get a bit more flexible and fit before September.

I need to re-read your immensely informative post tomorrow when I am more awake.... thanks for encouraging us closet ballerinas (LOL) to have a go!

Don't worry about being disowned - it's not personal! I used to live in Stroud and did tap for a couple of years -even got my Bronze medal! I know there was a ballet class before our session, and the teacher ran it a couple of times a week. I guess that there would be other similar classes about.

I've often thought I'd love to do ballet, but my singing teacher said that trying to teach dancers to sing was hard at first because of their temptation to keep their tummies pulled in rather than let it all hang out (as it were!). Is that a problem for you, Lady Moonlight? Mind you, I don't think I could ever qualify to be called a dancer!

I'm glad about that!

I think probably if you are already pretty advanced in singing, which you are, then you're less likely to have that problem than if you had been a dancer for years and had had it drummed into you to "tuck your tummy in"!

[quote=Emma C,Aug 2 2005, 09:40 PM]
[quote=sarah-flute,Jul 29 2005, 03:08 PM]
I've often thought I'd love to do ballet, but my singing teacher said that trying to teach dancers to sing was hard at first because of their temptation to keep their tummies pulled in rather than let it all hang out (as it were!). Is that a problem for you, Lady Moonlight? Mind you, I don't think I could ever qualify to be called a dancer!

[/quote]

Actually, Emma I'm a bit surprised your teacher said that because classical dancers need to keep their tummies pulled in but singers also need a strong control over their abdominals, don't they? One of my previous teachers would always talk about pulling the abdominals "up" when breathing in to sing. I can't speak for other forms of dance - perhaps jazz and contemporary dancers need to "let it all hang out" a bit more, but classical dancers need perfect posture. That comes from having a strong "centre" - which is the abdominal muscles. My ballet teacher says "tummy in, bottom down" - the last thing you need to do is arch your back, let your bottom stick up and your belly "hang out"!!! So singing technique is pretty similar to the basic technique for ballet in that respect. I hold my abs in when I sing the same as when I dance.

When the bottom is down and the tummy is pulled in that helps with turnout. As I understand it (and I'll probably be contradicted here) turnout is controlled by the muscles at the top of the thigh, just underneath the bottom. They need to be strong and controlled to keep the leg turned out. You can't do that if your stomach muscles are loose and flabby, your back is arched and your bottom is "up". I guess the problem is that most of us don't even realise how bad our normal, day to day posture is until we start to study dance.

Plus, you have to think about posture in a totally different way for Classical dance. You would never stand at a barre the same way you'd stand at the bus stop! Its a fairly unnatural way to stand really, but then it is classical art and classical art does tend to work "against" nature, that what makes it so challenging.

Anyone who wants to improve their posture to take up dance would really benefit, I think from taking classes with a really good Yoga or Pilates teacher, as these methods both help you get to know your body, which muscle does what etc. I used to do yoga every week but just don't have time anymore!

Yes, I'm sure you're right about posture etc. I do yoga and pilates (i got into the habit of doing it every other day for a bit, but pressures of work don't allow at the moment) which really helps, and I have my grandmother to thank for making me stand up straight. I was always so tall, and self-consciously so... I'm nealy six foot, but thankfully stopped growing! And I was always told I was too tall for ballet even as a five year-old.

I think what my teacher was concerned about with dancers is breathing really low down - hard with tummy pulled in. I'm told I have a good posture, but I do struggle with this deep abdominal breathing sometimes. I'm not sure if I understand what her she fully meant, but she is a professional singer (has sung West end, and premiered for very well known modern composers all over the world) and trained as a ballet dancer, but was too tall to proceed with it. I got the impression it was her first love.

What I do know is that she has to yell at me from time to time to 'release those lower muscles when you breathe!' Does that make more sense? Anyway, I think we women can be so consious to keep our tummies pulled in all the time (and our bottoms as well) to make ourselves look taller and thinner it can take a conscious effort to do otherwise.

Confusing! Your teacher is saying something different to what my "ex" teacher told me - (the one I've just stopped having lessons with that is). she used to tell me to "pull up" (ie tense and tighten) my abs and make my ribcage go "out" (sideways) simultaneously when I breathed in.

I had a teacher before her who would tell me to let my stomach hang out. I assumed they had different techniques. I guess the reason I've not had a lot of success with singing is that I've not had a consistant teacher witha method I understood. I still don't really understand breathing and "support" at all and am pretty sure I don't do it right . . .

I have to ask - do you sometimes get a "rumbling" sort of noise from your stomach when you breathe deep?!? One teacher told me it was a sign I was doing it right, while the last one said it showed I was taking air into the wrong place???

I just had a thought, and it seems sensible to post it here, that while a lot of this is relevant to singing/music, maybe we could have a dancing thread in the forums cafe for the non-singing stuff? any thoughts? I was going to just start one, but then had second thoughts... (me, indecisive? no...) - for reposting some of the great dance advice and encouragement here, and for posting any tips or advice in the future - and so those who aren't into ballet don't get sick of us!! hehe...

anyway I got out of bed to post this (silly I know!) but will do it in the morning if it's maybe a good idea...?

No rumbling yet.... which is surprising as I seldom have breakfast!!!

Seriously though, I do find that I get confused from time to time, even with this one great teacher I have. I've been doing this ribcage stuff for the last month or so - I think I'm getting the hang of it, but it's taking a while. I get the impression that you have to breath in different places for different reasons. When we started this ribcage stuff (which she says is like a fish, and makes me do it with my hands on the bottom of my ribcage to make sure I'm doing it right - I look at right idiot!) she mentioned that it was necessary to develop correct vibrato, so I guess we'll move on to that later.... Deep tummy breathing was used especially when I was doing legato singing, and lots of support for coloratura.....

I guess it will all become clearer as it all becomes more natural. I still can't get my head around everything I have to think about before I even open my mouth!!!! Sometimes it just happens naturally, but sometimes I've got to relaly focus, and tick things off a list mentally. I think it also depends if I've just rushed from work, if the traffic was bad, if I managed to park, if it's pouring with rain.....

Interestingly, if I'm really tired and don't think too hard about it, and just decide to go for it no matter what I often have a really good lesson! It happened last week, but I was then told to get a good night's sleep!

Lady Moonlight,

Good for you, I know that ballet is not easy - I've studied for years and only did a few workshops - I was always told "musical, too tall, too this", I still hang in there, my teacher of many years only teaches once a week and you know that's not enough to keep anything it shape. So keep up the good work - as you can tell, you have a fan club. One never knows, Gisele is waiting in the wings.

I'm really more interested in learning to play the piano, sometimes there's a little gremlin that pops up every once in a while that says "it takes a lifetime to learn this stuff". It dosen't really matter which art form we are learning, it probably comes to each of us at one time or another.

When it does, what do you do to get rid of this little imp?

Lady Moonlight,

Thanks for such encouraging words. Yes, I'd rather do the latter ie. exams, improve my skills, train properly and get up en pointe, but I can imagine how difficult it was for your trying to convince a teacher to let you join a class full of much younger students. Prejudice again Ageism needs to be killed off, stone dead. I'd imagine in London I'll probably have a tougher time finding a teacher who would take me on as a serious student, but I will certainly start rooting around right now.

Why is it society thinks that if you don't take something up until you are an adult then you must only want to do it "for fun" and not put any serious thought or practice into it. As we've demonstrated on this forum, adults often make far better examples as students than a lot of children

Totally agree... I also hate that people make the start division between "for fun" and "learning properly" (let alone that they assume adult learners are naturally going to be on the "for fun only" side of the equation ) - for someone who really wants to learn, the satisfaction of doing something properly, seeing improvement, passing exams, GETTING BETTER, well it IS fun! It almost makes it sound like there's a dividing line - till a certain age you're expected to take it all terribly seriously, not enjoy it really, and improve wildly, after that age you're to do it "for fun", not expect to get very far, and not take it at all seriously... what IS that??! It's far more fun to do something that you are to some degree good at than to do it badly (even if you have to endure a lot of hard work and painful stretching, literally or metaphorically, along the way!) - and it almost implies that learning seriously either cannot or SHOULD NOT be fun... grrrr!

Anyway, rant over!

I started a thread for ballet - I thought maybe it would be good for those would-be dancers among us to have a thread in the Forums Cafe for discussing stuff/sharing tips/good websites/video or dvd recommendations etc, and maybe if people don't object we could repost some of the encouraging/helpful advice from here so it's all in one dance-related thread... any takers? I am not on for long now so I have literally started it and here is the link to it:

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=8704

I'm quite happy to cut-and-paste the stuff from here IF no one objects to having their stuff reposted (please let me know one way or t'other) or people can repost what they wish of their own contributions!

Stamp on it! *squish*

Sarah,

Good idea, it raises it's pesky head every once in a while and I guess it happens to all of us one time or another. Especially when a friend say's "it's great that your are learning to play the piano, but dosen't it take a lifetime?"

Good thing that no-one I know has ever added at your age - ok I'm a young 64. My reply is always, I'm doing something I've always dreamed of doing and Carnegie Hall will just have to hold the curtain. I really enjoy learning Chopin's Waltz in a mnor and Fur Elise - Chopin is not easy, first part of Fur Elise a little easier - I never thought I'd be doing anything like this when I first started 4 1/2-5 years ago. Hope one day that I can come close to playing what I "hear".

I really admire everyone who is taking or has taken the different level exams. I have a feeling that the younger people really like the idea of someone older than they are learning and going through the same thing - it sets a good example. Is it possible to talk to the kids while waiting? I think you'd be pleasantly surprised and probably would learn from one another.

Thanks

Yes, even as as a young(ish) adult (rapidly moving towards being not such a youngish adult but I still feel 19 most of the time...!) I am very encouraged and inspired by so many people of my age and older taking exams and doing well... As so many people keep on showing, age is really not that important when learning music, there are so many other qualities (many of which adults have more than children) such as the enthusiasm, the will to practice, and all that kinda stuff, these things are more important than starting at age 6!

I do think some (not all, but some) of the people who say "but aren't you a little old?" are really just deep down wishing they could do the same, and trying to find some excuse not to - because maybe they're scared to fail. Not to mention being a little envious of people like you who have just gone for it and improving and playing things. Many people are rather envious of those who have had enough courage to go for their dreams and chase after them.

Chopin is hard... good for you... my piano skills are sadly lacking, I'm just not a natural pianist! Hopefully I will get to a decent level one day - even if it does take me quite a while...

Sara,

Chopin is hard and I have a looooong way to go, but just attempting to play this piece is something I never thought I'd be doing, and have to say I do like learning this piece.

I think you are right about adults being afraid - can't tell you how many people have watched ballet classes wishing they were in the studio not outside. Sometimes one or two would ask me questions about classes and I would always encourage them to take a basic beginners class just for starts, and not be concerned about others watching. Once the class begins, everyone is so involved with getting combinations etc. - they aren't paying that much attention to their fellow students. The good thing about most dance classes is that you can learn from one another - with any luck, it's non-competitive - but even that can push you to do better. I really admire Lady Moonlight, I've always loved to dance and it's not easy - can't imagine going on point and I couldn't get my foot into the shoe now anyway - my dance teacher of many years only teaches once a week now and I'm afraid that's the only class I take. Music has become my new challenge and lessons are rather expensive.

Sometimes someone will come into my teacher's apartment during my lesson, I'm so involved with what I'm doing that the visitor ceases to exist. The last lesson, the piano tuner came a little early and he laughed when I said that I rent ear plugs. A good sense of humor helps.

I find these posts so helpful and encouraging - isn't it wounderful that there are so many of us who are studying, music and dance and I hope I haven't left anyone out. Thanks so much!!!

I would just like to add my voice to this to. Unless you are in a remote area maybe, I do hope that you can find a decent teacher who does what teachers should do and encourage people to learn (as in the word education). I have failed exams myself then passed at a later date.