I'm studying Grade 8 Piano (OBV), and decided im doing the Scarlatti Sonata in D and the Op.79 Beethoven Sonata No.25 in G (any pointers on this are appreciated) but List C is proving a problem for me, i have access to the Debussy and Chopin, and only heard the Mendelssohn. ive decided that the Debussy is just not my style, and all of the pieces in the ABRSM bar the List i do NOT like the look of!

i LOVE Chopin but my edition of the polonaise is 8 pages so theres a fair amount of page turning, the Liszt doesnt need much page turning and i've always wanted to play some list but the Mendelssohn sounds like so much fun!

can anyone give advice on any of these pieces?

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Chris

What does your teacher think? He/she might be better able to know what you are capable of and to give you good advice.

i wont see a teacher until September and im preparing the pieces now. its actually tips on performance more than anything, i know i can do the pieces, im just not sure what to pick and performance tips would be helpful

I presume you know what's required scale/aural and sight-reading-wise?

By grade 8 personality and interpretation become a huge part of playing and performing pieces. Strangers on this forum can give general help, but for which piece would suit you and your playing style your teacher is the best source of advice.
I could tell you that my favourite list C piece is the Mendelsohn, but what good would that do you?

well what are the main technicalities of the Mendelssohn? and yes, i do know all the scales and aural requirements for Grade 8

I presume your teacher has asked you to choose grade 8 pieces over the holidays and to start work on them then. Can you not contact your teacher during the holidays to ask advice? I wouldn't mind my pupils ringing me for advice if they needed it.

I always thought Mendel&Sohn was a consortium.

But I learn....

Meh, I've given up on the Schumann (too fast) and I think I'll try the Liszt now.

Pick the one you like the most and is best suited to your skills

the Schumann scared me! E flat minor, fast speed, triplet semiquavers throughout...NO THANKS!

You expect minor problems like that by grade 8!

Seriously, it's great to see all your enthusiasm, but you haven't even got your grade 5 result yet. Unless you are doing a VAST amount of practice then you are not going to be jumping straight from grade 5 to grade 8 - it just doesn't happen. If you're doing, say, two hours a day and you get 140 or more for your grade 5 and you are 17 and therefore time is at a premium, then maybe your teacher might think in terms of you jumping that far, but otherwise, you're almost certainly looking at grade SIX next so my advice would be to get the grade SIX music and go back to your next lesson with the pieces and scales well under way. That is going to impress your teacher far more than going along with some grade 8 pieces at the level they're likely to be at. Jumping straight in at grade 5 piano, if you are already a good player of another instrument, isn't unheard of though it is certainly good, but you can't assume that you're going to be able to keep skipping grades.

Sorry to be blunt, but you're talking on other threads about LRSM piano and that is the standard of a FINAL YEAR university performance course recital. You're just trying to bite off far more than you can chew and, in the long run, it's not going to be in your best interests. Honestly. Sorry to sound like an old fuddy-duddy but there it is.

Liz

heh, well i do enjoy a good challenge for fun. i cant see why i cant do Grade 8, i've mastered at least 3 diploma standard pieces (Rachmaninov, Debussy and Chopin included) and i must say, apart from the page turning, the Beethoven Sonata im doing is not actually that bad

Well said, Liz! Couldn't agree more. And what do you mean by 'mastered' exactly? Play the notes? Play at the correct tempo? Play with the correct expression? Give a masterful and original performance?
I once heard a father and his son trying out pianos in Edinburgh - the father was playing some of the Rachmaninov preludes - and playing them wonderfully. Problem was, son was also playing same preludes and was trying to show off - his real problem was, he couldn't really play them and he just sounded like he was trying to impress - which he definitely wasn't succeeding in doing. He just looked extremely foolish. He would have been better playing stuff that was nearer his true standard.
Don't try to impress people on this forum - it doesn't work.

when i say mastered, i mean got round techincalities (to be honest i dont think theres much technical about the La Cathederale Englouite) got the desired expressions tempi and rhythms

best i've ever done is La Cathederale Englouite but if it wasnt for a broken piano lid, it would have sung out more and been even better, the Military Polonaise, well i admit i didnt bring out the top note as well as i should and the Rachmaninov, well, the Agitato section melody was dampened down last time i played it, again, thanks to the piano

oh, forgot to mention, im not actually trying to show off, i just happen to study a lot of advanced repertoire, heck, i suck compared to half the pianists on this forum!

Thankyou to Liz and chocolatedog this has been troubling me for a while. If you've not been playing very long and can 'master' diploma pieces in a reasonable time then that probably means that your ear isn't well developed enough to tell when you've 'mastered' a piece; rather than your playing being brilliantly developed to actually master them in that time. Enjoy learning and enjoy the process of learning don't treat it at a race, you just end up out of your depth and anyone with any remote knowledge of music will hate your playing: if you want to learn to play the piano take time to do it; if you want to just impress non-musical people with flashy pieces then go ahead but don't think that many people will be fooled!

Why not wait for your grade 5 results assuming you'll do grade 6 next and then see what you'll do when you get them: if you get 145 or above you might need to consider skipping grades; otherwise I'd suggest that you learn some grade 6 level repertoire (there are lots of brilliant pieces around that level) and then move on to the grade 6 exam. Learning the piano takes time, the longer you've been playing when you're at a certain grade the better you'll be: the grade tells you how hard the pieces you choose to play are; the mark tells you how good you are at playing (so long as those aren't the only pieces you can play; in which case it tells you how good you are at playing three pieces...).

Well said AP...

I have known people who've jumped straight from grade 5 to grade 8 (my piano teacher is one such, he started formal lessons from having a smattering of ability and within a year got 130 for grade 8) but they have then had to go back and "fill in the gaps". My piano teacher is one who has immense natural musical talent, I mean IMMENSE, but he would now say that except for getting him his uni place, jumping to grade 8 did him no good at all in the long run. He still had to do all the in-between work, he just had to do it afterwards (and by the way, he did HOURS of practice to manage that feat). Playing a wide variety of repertoire is far better for you than jumping on to higher level pieces, your playing may develop more slowly but it will be masses better in the long run. It IS possible that you have a musical genius, but the most likely scenario is that your "mastered" diploma pieces are not as mastered as you think. How long have you actually been playing?

You should listen to some recordings, or better yet, go to live concerts, preferably of a professional pianist, of the pieces you think you have "mastered" and compare how much better they probably are than yours. Chopins Military Polonaise is probably beyond DIPABRSM level, so maybe choose your words better in future, or as you can see, most people on this forum, rightly so, will get on ur back.

Oh poor GoneChopin - no doubt you're feeling a little put upon! If I may chip in from the point of view of someone who did their DipABRSM last year?
Agree totally that the Debussy isn't a technical problem - think I had the notes down pretty quickly (the slips I make are trying to get a small hand around BIG chords!). But over a year on I'm still finding a lot of work is need on the interpretation. The work needed for that is well beyond grade work I reckon - else it wouldn't be in the Dip syllabus...
All the best for your grade 5 results - take what we're all saying with a pinch of salt - I don't think there's anything wrong with playing pieces supposedly beyond your grade level, it's great fun.
As long as you're happy that there's a progression you take for your own edification (play the Military Polonaise and who cares how it sounds), and a progression you take through ticking off the grades (where you may find the examiner slaps you down for overreaching that grade's expectations), you'll be fine

right i just want to say, no matter what anyone else thinks, i personally think that playing into my 4th year of study, doing the kind of thing i've done im impressed with myself and the progress i made...dont forget im still a school student so obviously my ear will need more training but i personally think i have progressed tremendously in the space of 3 years

oh of course they werent the only 3 pieces i ever play, well preparing for my exam they were 90% of the time but i know that i am a good player for the length of time ive been playing regardless of what anyone here thinks

Absolutely!

Yes we agree you probably have progressed very well in the space of 3 years. We're not doubting that - what bothers us is the fact you have only done grade 5 piano, and yet you're going on about all the higher level pieces you have 'mastered' (to use your phrase.) Does your teacher say you've mastered them? Does your teacher set you these pieces to 'study'? You don't mention your teacher very often.

my teacher has actually set me some VERY awkward pieces (most of which i never liked or could manage) like
Chopin Nocturne No.8 in D flat Op.27 No.2, 6 in G minor (that wasn't too bad but i hated it), Waltzes No.7 in C# minor 1 in E flat (Grande Valse Brilliante) and 10 in B minor.
Liszt Etude in D flat (or was it a Consolation? i cant quite remember) 2 other Rachmaninov Preludes (both LRSM stuff, No.5 in G minor and No.10 in G flat)
Debussy Bruyers, Sarabande and Feux d'artifice (im shocked she tried to get me to do that)
a couple of Mozart/Scarlatti/Beethoven Sonatas
Bach French Suite No.5 and Prelude and Fugue No.2 in C minor from Book 1 (that fugue is impossible!)

Without being too arrogant here, for someone who is on grade 5, playing the Military Polonaise, Grande valse brilliante, and 2 LRSM-listen Rachmaninov preludes seem way beyond your ability to "master" a piece.

By all means go for it in terms of playing these pieces, we all love to do that. But unless you are Benjamin Grosvenor or such, please dont say you have "mastered" these pieces, as it is clearly not the case.

These pieces can make for good technical exercises, ( i have a book of chopins complete polonaises and use some like the "heroic" as practice) but for someone who has only been playing for 3 years, they are too difficult to have a serious attempt at (i mean to the point of "mastery" as you said) and you would be better off sticking to grade 5/6 pieces to try and "master"


Anyone getting sick of the word "mastered" around here

So if your teacher has set you these, why do grade 5?

And I can't believe you don't like the Chopin Nocturne in Db major - it's one of the most heavenly nocturnes there is! But it suggests to me your teacher is setting you pieces beyond your musical understanding and maturity if you make comments like that. Fugues are not impossible - you just have to have complete patience and discipline to 'master' (AARGH that word again) them. And if you couldn't manage them that definitely suggests to me your teacher is setting the wrong pieces for you to play.

So did you do grade 5 just for the exam experience as, from what you are saying, both yourself and your teacher judge you to be well above that level?

as i said, the Chopin D flat nocturne i gave up after the first 2 bars! and she soon realised it was a stupid idea so it was alright, besides she wants me to do the E minor Nocturne that was a Grade 8 piece not too long ago, same applies for the Liszt CONSOLOATION (it wasnt an Etude after all) and the Rachmaninov Preludes regarding the C minor fugue from book 1, that is one of the hardest of the fugues...particularly for a pianist doing it stylistically.

im judged at being around a high Grade 7 low Grade 8 standard, i onyl did Grade 5 to get a taster of piano exams before i sit my Grade 8

The E minor nocturne is a great piece.

it is, but the flourishes when the first theme comes back are a bit awkward though :-\. Oh yes, my teacher also asked me to do Nocturnes 13 in C minor and 15 in F minor, the C minor 1....HA!!!

The C minor nocturne is definitely NOT the same level as the E minor one. I would have said it's far harder to play - especially the final section. It's also very difficult maintaining the flow and melodic interest.

I've been staying out of this, but I can't let this one go....

I've been living with the well-tempered clavier for a few months now, and in my experience, fugue 2 is one of the easier fugues; it was the first one I learnt, prior to choosing one for my DipABRSM (no. 16). Certainly, fugue 2 it isn't as challenging as 12,14 or 16 (from the DipABRSM syllabus), and definitely isn't as hard as 3,4,7,8,20 or 24 (from the LRSM syllabus). I've been working on fugue 20 for just over three weeks now and I can just play the notes to a certain fashion; without boasting, I polished off fugue 2 in three afternoons. Stylistically - sure, the subject articulation needs some thought and so on, but there's certainly nothing there which isn't true of the vast majority of the other 23 fugues.

I think being able to judge the relative difficulty of a piece in a wider context is only something one can do if one's abilities are comfortably at that level - as one gets further from that level, more out of one's depth, then the pieces start to just seem 'hard' or 'ridiculous'. Fugue 2 may be hard to many; in the context of WTC I, though, it certainly isn't the hardest.

I'm happy for you that you enjoy playing the piano, and if difficult repertoire is your thing then go ahead and enjoy it. However, I think you'll find it difficult long-term to become an accomplished pianist - able of playing harder repertoire with style - without coming up through the ranks, working on a range of pieces and a range of techniques. The problem with pieces out of ones depth is that one has to focus so hard on surviving them that one cannot take a step back, reflect on the piece, and work on improving various aspects of technique or interpretation. I'd much rather listen to a grade 5 pianist play a grade 5 piece well than listen to them murder an FRSM piece which, to them, they are 'as good at' as they are at the grade 5 piece.

We're not trying to get at you or tell you that you've not made good progress; we're just trying to make you realise that perhaps you need to be more realistic about your ablities than you are being: there is a lot more to playing the piano than surviving certain pieces.

When people start claiming that after 3 years they can 'master' LRSM pieces I quite honestly find it insulting to all of those people who have been playing for 10 years and more who genuinely know what it means to master an LRSM piece. When people say they're sad because they 'only got a merit' or whatever (something that offends many people); to me that doesn't even compare to the amount I feel it insults LRSM level pianists to claim to be one after only three years when in all probablility it's the definition of mastered that's gone astray. I'm not an LRSM level pianist (although I have been playing for four years so maybe I should be starting to learn a few pieces of that level and claiming to be one ); but I know if I make it there I will be taking my time and making sure I am that good before I ever claim to be able to 'play' let alone 'master' those pieces... Yes most of us can learn pieces that are far too hard for us, and there's nothing wrong with that if mixed with enough pieces at the right level, it's just that your playing will be poor to anyone who knows what they're talking about and your technique haphazard, it really is just playing the piece through robotic programming rather than pianistic skill.

Please think a little harder about whether you really want to potentially insult the work so many people have done and claim to be a genius before doing it: in reality not many people will believe you're a genius; simply that you're unable to hear fault in your own playing, which implies quite the opposite.

I would agree with what's been said so far. With enough practice, any piece can be learnt by muscle memory. Even the expressive sections can be figured out, practiced and played. And you may eventually 'master' (please shoot me) the piece. But I feel that general musical development, in particular sight-reading, would really suffer if you only worked on very complicated pieces until you memorised them.

I'm under no illusions about my talent. I've been playing 9 years, taken 1 grade after each year of practice. I got a poor pass in Grade 7 from too little practice, had a horrid GCSE year afterwards where I did next to NO practice, and am now having to work very hard to tackle Grade 8. But I now feel I've played a very wide variety of music, and have had a full musical development and am very grateful for my teacher for giving me that and not just rushing through exams. I feel that training purely for the exams defeats the whole purpose of the music. And I also agree that you probably can't spot your own mistakes after 3-4 years; I can't do it well after 9.

We're just trying to get you to be a bit more careful about choice of words and how you say things aswell - for example, there's a student thread on someone just having done grade 3 flute, and all the other replies up till yours were from people also doing and discussing grade 3. Then there's yours, which goes on about what you're wanting to do piecewise for your grade 5,6 and 7. Just a tad insensitive, don't you think? On that particular thread, anyway. Had it been a thread on someone just having done grade 6, say, it would have been fine. Sorry to be a bit rough on you, but I know from experience that Emails can cause a lot of hurt as tone of voice/ facial expressions etc. (all vital clues in communication and understanding) are lost on Emails, so you have to be even more careful than usual with the words/phrases that are used. And we know you're enthusiastic about your music, which is great, but it can come over the wrong way so easily.

errr....whoops

exactly the reason why i never did it even though my teacher asked me to try