Okay folks, I really need your help here.

My latest singing pupil is an 11 year old boy, whose voice isn't near breaking yet. He's a keen dancer and is very eager to improve his singing. However, he can't seem to sing in tune, or sing back a note back to me correctly (can be at least a 3rd out). He's not tone deaf because he can tell the difference between a high interval and a low one. Once during the lesson he initally hit a C in tune but then it immediately went flat and he had no idea he had done it right or what he did to get it in tune. I figure his ear isn't relating the sound to his brain and I tell him to think of the note in his head before singing it but to no avail.

Will it come in time or am I fighting a losing battle? I really want to do well by him because he's enthusiastic and is willing to learn. I've never had to deal with a tuning problem like this before and don't quite know what to suggest. I've thought about Kodaly but have no clue about it at all myself.

help!

It may not be easy - but patience and time should see an improvement.

Are you getting him to pitch notes using an instrument? If so, put it on one side for a while and get him to match notes that you sing. Try all sorts of sounds, including funny or silly ones. Swooping siren-type sounds sometime help - gets kids using bits of their voice they may never have found before.

Switch it round and try to copy his notes - even if they are barely notes at all. Sing a bit higher or a bit lower than his note and ask if he can tell you which it was.

Keep it fun and light-hearted - keep us posted as to how it goes. Don't expect instant success.

Yes it certainly can be done! I've achieved it on a number of occasions but the later you leave it, the more difficult it is. By 11 years of age his treble voice may well be starting to think about sinking - so don't expect top Gs from him yet! Years ago I did once work with an 11-year old boy who had the highest speaking voice at that age I think I've ever heard. Couldn't pitch a note in tune though, so we did many weeks around middle C in music lessons. Not that long afterwards a really nice bass voice emerged (in tune) from nowhere. Voice changing time in a boy is so variable these days, that I now always keep in the back of my mind with a chap of that age that a voice change may not be helping.

I endorse all that Maggiemay has said about vocal exercises and matching your voice to his and then vice versa. Fun is the key word. Breathing is the other - so often youngsters try to sing with no air support. Do plenty of breathing exercises too to strengthen the vocal support. You can do things like rolling "R"s in a shrill manner (that will tell you a lot about his natural range) and siren sounds etc are good. Also check he's not locking his jaw etc which can inhibit range production. Just persuading a reluctant 13-year old boy I teach to breath and open his mouth - not cool these days around here - got his singing much better in tune for his aural tests.

Much of the problem often stems from the fact that, at an early age, the voice wasn't extended to any kind of upper register. Probably the boy was labelled as a non-singer at the age of 4 or 5 and then just gave up. That's the age when it's really easy to sort and I am always greatly saddened when I hear of 5 year olds being told to be quiet in school shows etc because they can't pitch. Now he's 11 he's got all that history to be eradicated - as Maggiemay says this is not usually fixed over-night.

I'd agree with Maggiemay too about using your voice in your work with him. Given that you're currently working in his voice range sing with him, sing to him and try matching your voice to his. Forget pitching from instruments - it's confusing as he may hear harmonics etc. Once he gets the idea of you matching his sound then he can try matching yours. It's a much greater challenge when (as I am now) you're working with an adult male trying to teach him to sing and you cannot pitch at his range!

Also, can I say (simply by way of encouragement to you) that I once taught a 9-year old boy to sing in tune from a low starting point. He went on to be Head Chorister of his church choir and gain several church awards for his singing. The most amazing moment for me (and him and his family) was when he sang, unaccompanied, the opening verse of "Once in Royal" at the church's Carol Service and held pitch. I could have cried - in fact I think his mother did! I also taught a girl (teenager) to sing from a non-pitching start and she went on to take her grade 2 singing exam and pass it.

So, it can be done - don't give up. If you crack this with him, he'll thank you for the rest of his life quite likely.

Best of luck

Zoltan Kodaly has some great books (I've got one of his sight-singing ones). I don't know much about 11-year-old boys' voices, but I've found Kodaly very helpful myself.

You beat me to it zauberfagott. Solfa is unbeatable at improving sight singing and singing in tune. It is a language that holds intonation together and gives a greater understanding of music. Can't recomend it highly enough.

Wouldn't argue about solfa or Kodaly (although I have to say, for myself, I have never really been at ease in using solfa in my own singing, it confused me when I was taught it aged 10 and it confuses me still ).

However, I think there is a stage before that if you are trying to work with someone who has no control over their voice pitching whatsoever (ie cannot find the same note twice reliably or any note at all reliably) and I am guessing that's the point where the original question of this thread was starting and where I was coming from in my response (and I'm guessing Maggiemay was probably too).

Once you have managed to get some consistency into finding a pitch then many other techniques become viable and helpful in supporting same and I endorse solfa and Kodaly as part of that process. It's what works for you and your pupils to gain confidence that matters. I have a student who responds well to solfa but, as I said above, for me personally it never really came to life.

I think so. Using solfa in isolation at this stage is unlikely to help, I imagine. It would be like trying to superimpose names on notes that aren't really there.

A Kodaly expert would ( I believe) teach solfa along with pitch awareness which is a different and very specific approach.

That's how I'm being taught it, right now. Nothing works in isolation, anyway. My aural/harmony lecturer studied at the Kodaly institute in Hungary.

Hi guys,

Thought I'd give you an update on my pupil and to thank you for your advice.

Two lessons on, his tuning is really improving. Not perfect by any means but I see we are on track which is boosting his confidence (and mine!)

I took maggie's advice about imitating me, with silly sounds (that were actually pitched) and that worked rather well, and ignoring the piano. Then we took a CD of a singer he liked and I asked him to sing along. There was definite signs of a good tuning and focus. I was delighted! He's practicing it at home and I'm getting him to start bringing the volume down so he's listening to himself more than the singer.

If I sing along and play the accompaniment to some Disney, the tuning gets a bit more confident, and then after time, he starts to get it a bit by himself. In vocal exercises and sirens, the tuning comes and goes but the fact it's even there at all is a dramatic improvement.

His breathing is also improving which may also account for improved tuning, I'm not sure, but he says he can hold long notes for longer than before. He then said something about being able sometimes hear the music in his head which helps him to remember and predict the next note, to which I squealed 'That's your thinking voice!! Fantastic!'

I'm really pleased with his progress and we both know it'll take a lot of patience and hard work but I'm really up for this challenge.

I thought I'd post this for other teachers (because things like sight singing will come into play for other instruments too) so they can see that it can be done, and thanks again for everyone's help.

I'll keep you up to date on how he gets on!

That's fantastic, JW!

Wonderful JW ...... well done to both of you !
I'm sure it will continue to improve - he's now "off the starting blocks" and has seen that it's possible to make a difference.

He (and you!) must be so encouraged with his progress in what is really a fairly short time.

Wonderful, jazzywench!

I'm so pleased for you and your pupil. It is so exciting, helping someone 'find their singing (and thinking!) voice...



Who is your Kodaly teacher, zauberfagott, and when did he/she study at the Kodaly Institute? That's where I've just been for three weeks!

Great news for you and pupil.

Well done Jazzywench!!

Try starting with the pitched range around his speaking voice - if someone was TRULY tone-deaf (don't believe in such a thing!) then they'd have no idea as to whether their speaking voice was raised or low whilst talking (and their speech patterns would be most peculiar!).

I had a student who wandered all over the place & never sang the same thing twice - it took months of basic nursery-rhyme-esque melodies working around the range of her speaking voice, but once she understood that & got a grip of how to pitch there, we gradually worked outwards, semitone by semitone, until she finally managed to pitch a song over 1.5 octaves without going out of tune. She'll never be Maria Callas, but the girl can now sing in tune

There is such a phenomenon I think you'll find, and people to whom music truly just sounds like a load of noise. Very rare though, and not what most people call tone-deaf. Check out this post. However it IS very rare and most people who claim to be or are told they are "tone deaf" are probably not.

That's really great news JW. Congratulations to you and your student. Please keep us updated with his progress.



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