has anyone ever done this sonata? god bless you if you have

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

I thought long and hard before replying, because there is the prospect of appearing big-headed. Yes, I have 'done' this piece.

Performed it live.

Analysed it for 'A' level music students (NEAB 1992-1993).

Am I certifiable? Yep. Must be.

Steve

you've played all 30 or so minutes of it?

Yes. And once, I played a bit more. I had described to the audience how the sonata was one of the great Romantic works, lasting upwards of 25 minutes in the hads of a virtuoso, and about 30 minutes in my hands. I had described the major themes, everything.

There is a passage early on that is repeated much later in the work (I will look up bar numbers tomorrow if you reallywant) but that resolves differently and prepares for the cataclysmic finish. Sadly for me (and I learned much from this) the cuff on my left sleeve was not showing to my satisfaction. This really bothered me, to the extent that I stopped concentrating on my playing and concentrated instead on my appearance. As a result, I came out of the early passage thinking about this and not what I was supposed to be doing. I went wrong, and found mysef at the end of the piece instead of early on. I 'waffled on' for a few seconds before admitting defeat, owning up to the audience and starting again.

Never made that mistake again.

Steve

im still impressed that people learn such a monster of a piece though! but that must have been REALLY nerve wracking for you though!

A mammoth piece in all respects, even outdoing Liszt's other amazing Fantasia quasi Sonata "Apres Une Lecture du Dante" both of which I have tried playing sections of and both of which I have failed miserably in learning completely. As well as being virtuoso pieces the music reaches levels of great profundity in their quieter sections and Liszt music superbly illustrates the eternal struggle of the soul between good and evil, purgatory and redemption.
Funnily enough, the first time I heard the B minor Sonata was in an orchestrated form when it was heavily used in the old Flash Gordon serials and Karloff/Lugosi movies from the 30's. Does anyone remember it always cropping up in these Golden Oldies? It was certainly ideal music for edge-of-the seat suspense and terror!

Gae

I performed it many times subsequently so it did become easier, although I could never claim to have it under control. The two greatest live performances I ever heard of this piece were in madly contrasting venues. The first, in about 1976, was by Clifford Curzon at the Gracie Fields theatre in Rochdale. In a wonderful moment that could not possibly be staged, we could hear the wind whistling through the eaves of the building just as Curzons started that doom-laden first few bars! The second was only a few years ago, by Kissin at the Bridgwater Hall in Manchester. Both performances had the audience on the edge of our seats. Both were full of huge fistfulls bloopers, but the few of us in the audience who knew didn't care, such was the intensity of the playing.

And that, sadly, is all I have in common with these two great soloists. I too play fistfulls of wrong notes. After that, C & K are up in the stratosphere whilst I am still grovelling around in the mud. Hey-ho.

One of the biggest problems facing the soloist is that all the crash and bang usually surrounds a melody that needs bringing out; failing to do so renders the piece meaningless and tedious.

Having played it so often came in really handy when I had to analyse it for my 'A' level students back in 1992. That was a fascinating experience. The piece is a magnificent example of 'thematic metamorphosis'. With the exception of the first melody in the slow section, every theme in the piece derives directly from the motifs on the first page. For example, the bass quavers in bar 14 become the lyrical melody in bar 153, slowed to crotchets, placed in the treble and accompanied by the triplet broken chords. I played the piece for years without spotting this.

Actually, spotting it probably just makes me sad. Hey-ho again.

Steve

ooo my favourite piano piece of all time!

Im determined to play it one day.
My teachers husband played it in a concert, it was fab!

I heard the great Svetioslav Richter on a live recording....outstanding. He made the "fugue" in the 3rd part (if you can call it a sonata with 3 movements) sound like a whirl of voices.

WOW i cant get over the piece.

THERES AN ORCHESTRAL VERSION?! DO YOU HAVE IT?!

wow, that sounds impressive!!!

oh good lord no! i think its amazing how people spot these kinda things! ive realised that the Chopin Nocturne in D flat Op.27 uses a very similar bass figuration in the Liszt Consolation No.3? in D flat...strange huh

Chopin and Liszt admired each other hugely. Each stated that the other could play their music better than they could. Hope that makes sense.

In this case, I wonder who pinched from whom

Steve

Steve, Liszt would have pinched from Chopin i think.

Because although they both admired each other, chopin did not appreciate liszt's taste in music, so i have heard.

Gae! Come on! Tell us all what you got for grade 8!

Liz

He still hadn't heard yesterday.

thats an interesting idea actually

i think probably liszt pinched from chopin, like sl123451 said, chopin thought of liszt's music as a little "vulgar" (i think that was the word he chose, but i'm not 100% sure) for his tastes. he probably said this before they met and became friends though...

that said he did appreciate liszt's input and assistance, particularly with the op.25 set of etudes. apparantly liszt was a great fan of chopin's etudes - the last piece he ever played was the nouvelle etude no.2. so they were alike in many ways, despite differing styles

hmmm the etudes are good fun

Unless you are playing them, in which case they are torture

well yes you're right, the B minor Etude from Op.25...MY GOOD GOD! how does anyone cope with double octaves like that at such a speed!

the Winter Wind and the Black Keys are wonderful! but i dont like the look of the right hand fingerwork needed for them...that scares me! same applies for the left hand in the Revolutionary and the Op.25 in C# minor

Have you ever wondered why the return of the section A in the B minor is cut short? I always did until I learned the piece.

Not only did Chopin understand perfectly how to push technical development to its absolute limits, he also recognised the point at which players will become incapable of continuing. He aborts the reprise just at the point when the peformer is likely to seize up. The problem is not the first section octaves - octaves are just basic technique once you know how - but the extra notes you have to play with the (usually) second and\or third fingers in each hand. These cause intolerable pressure on the muscles. The middle section then sounds relaxing but in reality, the constant extension of the hands leaves little opportunity for rest and muscle strength regeneration.

I never mastered the Black Keys - players who did tell me that they have to keep on playing it or the mastery soon disappears again. Winter Wind is tough and performers playing, say, the whole of op 25 as a set, need to keep back some energy for the last of the group. Start that one with tired hands and the soloist will be unable to manage more than about half-way through (guess how I know ).

One of the great things about these studies is the way Chopin demanded of a pianist's hands those things they were likely to be asked to play. The C# minor is a great example of this. The rh whizzes around playing thirds; instead of doubling up with the lh, which would be plain silly, C wrote a broken chord figure which helps the lh develop one of the skills it needs.

Are you starting to play these yet? If so, take a tip and don't start at the beginning. The C maj at the start of the op 12 set is one of the hardest and failure here is discouraging (guess how I know that, too ). The first two of the op 25 set make a more gentle 'in' and will do you incalculable good as well.

Steve

HAHAHAHAHA, i wont really go near the Etudes (yet) although my Teacher tried to get me to play the Aeolian Harp (no.1 in A flat from Op.25) dabbled around with No.7 in C#minor from Op.25 and No.2 in F minor from Op.25 but thats about it :-\ The 1st of the Op.25 REALLY hurt my hands and i did it VERY VERY VERY slowly :-s

i'd rather learn Debussy's Feux D'artifice or les tierces alternetes

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins! likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.

steve, am i right in assuming (as i've read somewhere) it's not necessary to play every single grace note in the op25 no1, so long as the overall effect is satisfactory? the vast vast majority should of course sound, but given the speed it seems impossible to play all of them. and thanks for the recommendation - i will look at the first 2 from op 25 first, along with the black keys, not in any serious way of course - i imagine it'll be some time before i'm performing these

I seem to recall Freddy Kempf saying of this piece that it was one of those pieces that no matter how much he practised it didn't sit well under the fingers like other pieces do and he always felt like he was going to 'fall-off' the keys and it wasn't a safe thing to perform. Of course following that statement he then went on to play it very well!

Kempf said that?!?! but hes a genius!!!

i do believe he said that the black keys was one of the easiest etudes to learn and/or play (cant remember which)

every grace note in Op.25 No.1? sorry but its an etude made up of semiquaver sextuplets throughout except a few bars with 4 against 6 and the last few bars

regarding the Tristesse Etude (Op.10 No.3) polyrhythmically trained hands are useful. its amazing how something so beautiful is horribly difficult

Am I reading you correctly? "Polyrhythmically"? Why would you need that?

Do you mean playing different rhythms on the same beat in each hand or completely independent beats?

Can't see how it fits in with that Study

maybe you have a different edition of op.25, no 1? in mine chopin certainly marked the melody line in normal size and marked the semiquaver sextuplets as much smaller on the page, so they resemble grace notes - this is what i was referring to.

and AP pointed out yet another challenge about the black keys etude. it's 'safer' on some pianos and more perilious on others, so trying it on a new piano can be quite intimidating. sometimes you do feel that, although you can manage the fingering, you're balancing your fingers on the narrower black keys, and are always in danger of falling off and ruining it.
even when you can play it rapidly this danger never really goes away, and you really need remarkable precision. if Kempf thought it was hard...

does anybody with smaller hands find the fingerwork in op10.no4 easier than i do?
it always seems uncomfortably cramped, but i don't really see how else to play it. apparantly chopin had quite small hands so presumably he didn't suffer this problem

why polyrythmically? i've always regarded this as more of a study in touch, but then it's too early in the morning for me - have probably misunderstood you completely

Yes, and even, or maybe especially, geniuses (genii?!) know that to play a piece perfectly - or even extremely well - is a difficult thing to do.

[quote=s8535049,Jul 30 2005, 10:23 AM]
[quote=GoneChopinBachSoon,Jul 30 2005, 01:18 AM][quote=s8535049,Jul 29 2005, 06:52 PM]the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins!  likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.


ohhhh i see i see i understand.

Nope, he actually said it's one of the most difficult! Particularly to play under performance conditions. Maybe you're thinking of Kempff not Kempf though....

maybe...

Excuse me for taking up this old topic once again.
I have been trying to play this sonata by Liszt for several years, but I've got a problem with it: in bar 81 starts a very long series of fast reiterated chords for the right hand, up to bar 108. I can never maintain this ! My wrist gets exhausted long before. Maybe an alternation of arm and wrist movement could help ? Change hands ?

I always use my wrists there. Maybe you could practice that part separately, take it much slower at first, like say.... half the speed you normally play it. When youre totally comortable with playing it at that speed, speed it up a bit, do the same again. Repeat that until you can play it up to speed, might take a while.....Cant think of anything else right now but someone else might.Hope this helped some bit anyway...

The secret behind playing this passage lies in very small wrist movements – your fingers should only just lose contact with the keys. Any exaggerated ‘flapping’ will exhaust you in no time.

Repeated actions cause tension that leads to tiredness. Release the tension by moving your forearm slowly up and down - your wrist will rise and fall.

Follow these simple rules, and you will be able to play this passage all day, if you want.

Hope this helps

Steve

Thanks both for your speedy help !
Now it's up to me !

Well after seeing this discussion, curiosity took over and I downloaded the mp3 of the song. Impressive would be one way to describe it. And I also have the music to it I found so I think ill go and learn this as my next piece! I love having a challenge with the piano. Wish me luck lol!

OK. Good luck.

Steve

Good luck, from me too !

good luck!

im sure that Liszt was the first composer to write music which requires anything below bottom C on a piano (although for the 3rd last chord of the first movement of Chopins Piano Sonata No.2 in b flat minor requires bottom B flat )

his use of the bottom A is fab!

lucky i don't play it then because i rest my cigarette on bottom a when playing and smoking together.

bad person...shouldnt smoke

I guess you must be playing an arrangement of "Dance of the Fireflies' if you're doing both at the same time!!

can be a little precarious though - my teacher once had an examiner who offered to page-turn for her (unusual) while smoking and managed to coat the keys in cigarette ash.

My piano has a very well-designed square at the bass end, fits a cup of tea perfectly.