Hi everyone who has taken jazz exams. I am thinking of trying one of the jazz exams. Is it advisable to work out an "improvisation" to the pieces in advance and memorise it or let it just happen in the exam. I would be interested in any advice. Thanks. Margaret

Most of my pupils seem to gravitate towards memorising one basic 'improvisation' to use in the exam, although the fine detail might be a little different each time they play it.
The main thing is that it must still sound spontaneous, and not as though it has been very obviously prepared!

Definately work on the impros. You'd be risking an awful lot just to let it go. I tend to get my pupils to work on the breaks, but also do lots of free impro within the lesson. I treat the final product more as a set improvised composition.

I have to say I tried out the Grade 1 & 2 jazz grades just so I could get an idea about what i was letting my pupils in for. Very worthwhile.

Hi Ewanh,

Thanks very much for replying to my jazz question. Was it the piano jazz exams you tried out? I would be very interested in any thoughts you have about the exam and preparing for it. I thought I would take grade 1 and 3 to give me an idea of the standard etc. What do you think? Margaret

I am staggered at the replies of ewanh and jo.clarinet about preparing an improvisation in advance for an exam. It's got to "sound spontaneous" even though it's been prepared? And "you'd be risking an awful lot to just let it go"???

If this is common practice then there's an enormous loophole in the system that's gotta be filled otherwise nobody's going to learn to improvise under pressure, are they?

And no, composition and improvisation are NOT the same thing. They're just not. The former you can take as much time as you like over, and the latter is done on the run - SPONTANEOUSLY.

Comments, anyone?

Seriously, Margaret, practise your improvisation so much that you wouldn't dream of having to prepare an "improvisation". Then, come the exam, something good will just flow out. Presumably you'll know the piece you're improvising on, and you'll be well versed in the scale(s) appropriate for the piece - wouldn't it just be plain cheating to prepare it in advance?

If teachers are getting their pupils to prepare it in advance they may be giving them a dishonest advantage over the pupils who do it on the hoof, and I really think this is wrong.

If the examiner were to ask the student whether they'd prepared it, would they say no? When they had? They could hardly say yes, could they, because then the examiner would know they weren't really improvising, so they'd have to lie. Arrggh, this really makes me cross!!!

Obviously the AB should be changing the structure of the exam, so the pupil couldn't possibly prepare the improvisation in advance. The piece should be unfamiliar and in one of, say, 3 keys. The style could be anything from traditional to swing to be-bop to modern and the pupil should be able to create something appropriate, especially at the upper levels. And even at the lower levels an improvisation should be just that - a true improvisation - NOT a pre-written or memorised composition.

Sheeesh!

So, judging by the total silence on this topic, nobody's interested or bothered. Can one take it, then, that the teachers out there who are teaching to the jazz curriculum are recommending to their pupils that they prepare their "improvisations" for the exams?

The silence is somewhat deafening.

Violinia - maybe if you didn't sound so judgmental this thread could have developed further - people are probably nervous of replying now!
Please let us other teachers tackle this in our own way, and please credit us with commonsense in dealing with our own pupils. The purpose of the AB Jazz exams is NOT just to test one's improvising under pressure. I have some brilliant improvisers among my own pupils, but equally I have a lot who like jazzy pieces but are not especially imaginative.
I see the jazz syllabus as a good-fun add-on to the rest of my teaching - this may seem like heresy to you, but for me it is nothing more. I have myself taken all the jazz piano exams to Grade 5 - yes, I did prepare the outlines of my solos in advance, and no, to me that's certainly not 'cheating'. I've also taken the jazz clarinet exams to Grade 3 (so far), and I must say that I found it much easier to freely improvise in the clarinet solos, basically because the accompaniment was already there on the backing CDs!
The pupils I have doing the Jazz syllabus all really enjoy it and, I think, get a lot out of it. And yes, I'm happy with it too!

"I see the jazz syllabus as a good-fun add-on to the rest of my teaching - this may seem like heresy to you, but for me it is nothing more. I have myself taken all the jazz piano exams to Grade 5 - yes, I did prepare the outlines of my solos in advance, and no, to me that's certainly not 'cheating' "

I'm sorry but if that's the attitude of most teachers teaching to the jazz curriculum then no wonder it hasn't taken off in quite the way the AB hoped. A fun add-on, nothing more? What a belittling and patronizing attitude towards jazz if you don't mind my saying so - this really sets my teeth on edge. Yes perhaps I got out of bed the wrong side this morning, but still - is this the message you give your pupils too? That jazz is just something you can do for a bit of light relief before going back to the real business of music-making, perhaps?

And at risk of repeating myself, I just don't think preparing a solo will tell an examiner anything much about your improvisational skills. How about answering this question. then: would you be happy to tell a jazz examiner that you'd prepared/memorized the solo you were about to play?

Surely all you need to know is the scale(s) you'll be drawing from. Why would you need to prepare any more than that if you could really improvise?

You said perhaps more than you intended in your original post with your remark:

"The main thing is that it must still sound spontaneous, and not as though it has been very obviously prepared!" Your use of an exclamation mark suggests a bit of a "nod nod wink wink" attitude which gives off a very funny feeling about the whole thing.

And if this isn't about trying to pull the wool over the examiner's eyes, then what is it exactly?

Why don't you just admit it - you're getting your pupils to compose something which they'll then pass off as an improvisation.

And how about justifying your attitude that the jazz syllabus is "a fun add-on, nothing more"? Is that how the AB intended it to be seen, I wonder? I somehow doubt the likes of Eddie Harvey, Nikki Iles et al would agree...

Yawn..........
I see little point in answering your post - we obviously have completely different views on the whole thing, so let's call it a day, shall we?!

You can yawn all you like but I think it's a shame you're not prepared to answer any of my questions....

Please just answer the one question then - would you tell an examiner you had prepared an improvisation in advance? Come on, I've reduced all those questions down to one!

You'll probably be very disappointed here - but yes, I've had many talks with examiners over lunch breaks at my Special Visits - when it's been a visit including jazz candidates we HAVE discussed the jazz exams and improvisations, and I didn't at all mind saying that I'd worked on the outline of mine before the exams (since I see nothing to hide!) - in fact the examiners seemed to treat it as quite normal. I really can't see what all the fuss is about!
Now, can we give it a rest please?! I'd rather be playing my instruments than arguing.........

Look, to end the argument, because I think it's important to clear this one up, I've just spoken to somebody at the Jazz Department of the AB and put the question to them.

She told me that while it's obviously essential to practice improvising in all the keys and modes you're likely to be asked to improvise in, planning or memorizing a passage beforehand is unacceptable. Apparently in the notes it'll tell you that the improvisations should be inventive and spontaneous; this does NOT mean preparing what you're going to play in advance!

She said that an examiner will most likely pick up on whether an impro has been prepared or not, and although the candidate won't be thrown out of the exam they'll certainly be marked down. She pointed out that it would be counter-productive to the whole spirit of jazz for the candidate to prepare their impro to that extent.

I expected this to be the case and don't really understand why you've argued the opposite point.

So tell me how, if you have spent a few months working on the exam pieces you avoid practicing the improvised section ???

Hi Violinia and Jo. clarinet
It has been really helpful and fascinating reading you answers to my original question on approaching the improvisation. I always read any postings from you both with interest as your viewpoints are always knowledgeable and interesting. I think there is space to take both your views on board. I was quite happy to improvise in my Grade Viii practical musicianship where they give you an unseen poem to stimulate your creative juices (!) I will certainly make sure my scales are known backwards, sideways, etc etc I am really grateful to you both for the discussion and will let you know how I get on. Cheers Margaret

In answer to sbhoa, practising an improvisation and preparing/memorizing a passage and calling it an improvisation are two somewhat different things.

Honstly, I do know what I'm talking about; I'm a working jazz musician myself and I know very well when I play something I've played before, and it's not improvisation!!! At every gig I do my utmost best to play something I've never played before, on EVERY SINGLE NUMBER, EVERY SINGLE TIME. Otherwise what's the point and who am I kidding?

So suppose you have to improvise over a chord progression of C Am Dm G7 and you've been working on using notes from 2 scales: C and G7 bebop, then you spend your time practising those scales and playing riffs, runs, licks and arpeggios of those, developing your ideas more and more each time you play.

Say one day you play something really inventive and unique - do you think, hey that was great! I must play that in my exam? Or do you just play and play until you are so fluent in those scales and know the music so well that when the time comes you can always pull a pretty good rabbit out of the hat?

Look, for a second opinion I asked my son's sax teacher about it today. My son is working towards Grade 5 jazz sax, Guildhall syllabus. I asked him if a prepared "impro" would be acceptable in an exam and he looked at me as if I was completely mad. He told me this would completely ruin the purpose of that part of the exam, which is to test for your improvising skills, and he pointed out that being able to improvise is pretty much the main thing in jazz.

But then he's a working jazz musician himself so he's hardly likely to think a pre-prepared solo acceptable in an exam, is he? And nor should he be.

Perhpas there's a problem here with classically orientated teachers learning a bit of jazz, up to Grade 5 for example, and then teaching the jazz syllabus with all their classical habits deeply engrained and unable to pass on a real sense of what jazz is actually about, which is, as my son's sax teacher re-iterated tonight, primarily IMPROVISING ON THE SPOT.

The confusion here seems to be between practising and preparing a solo - these are two different things! Practise playing through the changes - you need to do this for sure! But if you want to play jazz and do something genuine in the exam, IMPROVISE in the exam!

Otherwise what are you doing it for? To add some more Grade notches to your bedpost, or to explore and actually learn to play some jazz?

You sound like you'll be fine, Margaret, if you were happy to improvise in your Grade 8 practical musicianship, but the very best of luck anyway!

Thanks, I think I understand the difference a little better now

QUOTE (sbhoa @ Apr 26 2004, 07:31 PM)

So tell me how, if you have spent a few months working on the exam pieces you avoid practicing the improvised section ???

You can practice it, but when you practice it, it's still an improvisation every time.

One of my favourite techniques while teaching is to say to a pupil that if they improvise the same thing 5 times, I don't want any of them to sound like any of the others. That way they get more confident that they'll get something good in the exam, and they don't internalise any pre-played improvisation.

Well said, David: - "don't internalise any pre-played improvisation."

Some people here never seemed to quite take that point on board throughout the whole discussion, more's the pity.

I'm glad I didn't turn out to be the only one saying it!

I have to confess that when I took grade 5 jazz piano, I played mostly pre-planned solo's. I could have improvised on them but I wanted the examiner to hear the best ideas I had. This also had much to do with the solo jazz piano medium. When I im improvising over a walking bass in my left hand there is no chordal support. This means I have to make my right hand phrases very harmonic and vertical, even playing block chords. Improvising with block chords aint no cheese cake, so I often pre-reherse such solo's. I always improvise in a group situation and pre-planned solos never work properly in a group anyway.

While the spirit of the examination is indeed to improvise on the spot, it is impossible not to be influenced by what you might have heard or practised before. Take C-Jam Blues (Piano Grade 2), for example. You might listen to (say) Oscar Peterson's solo on the Night Train album, and pick up some ideas from that e.g. short transcribed phrases or try to improvise using a particular rhythmic pattern, selection of notes or focus on the C or A blues scales etc. When working with the solos during lessons I'll accompany my pupils over several choruses to ensure that they keep coming up with new ideas. I'll demonstrate some possibilities and discuss ideas with my pupils that might be idiomatic and appropriate, then get them to try for themselves. This puts them in a much more confident position because they have a wider vocabulary so when it comes to the exam they can be more spontaneous. (Just as with spoken language, the more you read, the larger your vocabulary, the greater your ability to express yourself fluently in an unprepared situation)

(I also use the Musicianship in Practice books as they have loads of examples of short phrases - very useful for call and response improvising and general all-round aural/rhythmic training.)

So........... Has the jazz syllabus not taken off then?


Violina stated
"I'm sorry but if that's the attitude of most teachers teaching to the jazz curriculum then no wonder it hasn't taken off in quite the way the AB hoped".

Just interested

......the silence is deafening...........

lol, only teasing! I just couldn't resist!

QUOTE (sbhoa @ Apr 26 2004, 07:31 PM)

So tell me how, if you have spent a few months working on the exam pieces you avoid practicing the improvised section ???

[QUOTE]
I'd like everyone to realize that it is of course possible, and necessary, to practice your improvisation. Just remember you are practicing improvising, and not playing something that you or another has already 'composed.'

This is not the place for an improv primer (there are thousands of books on the subject), but trying different ways to play the same set of chord changes is endlessly fascinating, in my view.

Jazz, like any language, requires a vocabulary. This vocabulary can best be acquired by listening (and playing along with) jazz music on recordings.

For those wishing to improve their understanding of jazz-- learning by ear a simple solo by a jazz master, and playing along with it as exactly as you can, would be a great way to start.

Sorry SueTerry but I've had to remove the URL at the bottom of this message. Generally we don't allow websites to be advertised on the forums unless the content is largely information based and likely to be of use to those partaking in the discussion.

My best suggestion regarding Improvisation is to study the Board's book "Jazz Piano From Scratch." Although the focus is piano it's instructive for other instruments too, because too many people miss the point regarding Improvisation. There are certain theoretical rules, but the activity is as said before spontaneous. One cannot memorize an Improvisation, period.

QUOTE (newmonk @ Jul 17 2004, 01:56 PM)

One cannot memorize an Improvisation, period.

Whilst this is true, listening to many of the greats (analytically), i do hear little riffs that are occurring motiffs if you like, almost like a signature to their style. Its good to build up an armoury of licks, you can always build several variations on them. I hear it all the time.

I agree TenorClef that many greats have certain "licks" in pieces they play and recurring voicings or progressions are a part of the arsnel. The point of departure however is that these are not "rehearsed" or "memorized" but comes naturally either from a feel of the piece or to add some tonal quality. A good example is to listen to Monk or Horace Silver, you can identify their sound either by styling or licks but theis ia all spontaneous, any repetition is incidental. All musicians have signature licks but I don't think you and I "memorize" them; I personally like disonnances, but I dont sit down and memorize them. It would amke my playing too ridgid and lack groove.

How much live Jazz is really improvised on the spot??

Unless you're talking about really top flight players, well short of 100% I'm fairly sure.