expand my repertoire?! good grief i already do music ranging from early Bach to late Poulenc, how much more can i expand?!

And I just read that you want to get a diploma in both piano and recorder. Well, you're not going to do that before you go to University, unless you fit in a gap year and manage to persuade your parents to support you during that year while you do music practice full time. Doing A levels is hard enough and isn't going to allow you time to do all the exams you mentioned - it's as simple as that. you'll likely end up getting really bad A level grades if you press that hard on the music exams. To get to grade 7 piano and recorder might just about be feasible but even that will be hard. I did something similar when I was doing my first degree - I had already started on a teacher training course (which was a 4 year BEd - they don't exist any more) studying english when i realised I really wanted to do music but I had nothing beyond grade 3 on paper (though my viola playing was about grade 7 and my recorder playing about grade 8, I just hadn't done the theory exams). I studied music privately alongside the degree and all went well - I got grade 8 recorder, grade 8 viola, grade 8 theory and grade 5 piano by the end of the third year. So far so good. Then I made the mistake - wanted a viola diploma. I did my degree finals, and two weeks later I did the LTCL. I got a THIRD CLASS degree (which is worth no more than the pass degree I could have had after three years - in other words I might as well have left after three years and got a job) and i failed the LTCL. Brilliant move - not. I would have been FAR better to have settled for grade 8 and left the LTCL until later, that way (assuming I'd done any work!) I would have got a 2.2 degree and thus been more employable and enititled to a higher salary once I got a job. That decision to take the LTCL probably cost me literally thousands of pounds because it affected my degree finals, and I didn't even pass it. Quite simply there is a limit to what any normal person can do in a 24 hour period.

O, and please, forget the idea of slogging for two years at exam pieces - you will be so fed up with them after even ONE year that you'll never want to hear them again as long as you live! Two years is just unthinkable.

Liz

i have no intention on taking diplomas after A levels, not even in a gap year. i'd do them AFTER uni

I think what Sarah is trying to get at is to play more repertoire of an appropriate level, not the hard stuff just for fun. Pianists are fortunate enough to be blessed with a rich and varied range of pieces to choose from at all levels; make the most of it.

i'd probably try for the recorder diploma first then the piano, but who knows

im sorry, but whats so bad about Chopin Preludes 4, 7, 20 and 6? Beethoven Sonata No.20, 1st and 2nd of the Moonlight and the finale to the Op.79 sonata, Bach French Suites (selected movements)??

well if im so unfilled of Grade 6/7 repertoire, would you care to make suggestions of what i sHOULD do?

There's a whole heap of piano music out there - you can expand your repertoire for miles and miles and miles without ever reaching the end. You have the privilege of playing an instrument which has SO much music composed and arranged for it (not to mention all the chamber music, accompanying etc that you could do) that your range to expand your repertoire is almost limitless. And can you honestly play all that music really musically and beautifully, sytlistically correct and with real assurance? Truly, I have to doubt it, as you say you've only had 8 months of lessona dn claim not to be a prodigy. So, play the music you have to the best of your ability, and you are extremely unlikely to run out of potential piano repertoire in your whole life, so get some pieces appropriate to your level and learn to play them to distinction standard - or even diploma standard (because even a grade 1 piece will sound, or should sound, a good deal better in the hands of a diploma or beyond level student than a grade 1, grade 5, or even grade 8 distinction pianist, even if that piece itself is not diploma level)

As for repertoire suggestions, my first two are - any or all of the grade 5 pieces you did not do for your exam, and work to really get the others good if you're not completely sick of them... but you probably are after 8 months. Then go and get yourself a book or two of grade 5-6 repertoire, I'm sure your teacher or some of the piano students/teachers on here can suggest some (Classics to moderns, prob book 4 or 5 ish? also "more classics to moderns", and there's a series of romantic piano pieces which would probably give you something to get into, I think it may just be called "romantic piano pieces" but a search in a music store or online will probably find it without too much difficulty) and any previous grade 5 pieces that you can lay your hands on, or pieces of that level from different boards, then when you run out from that (and have learned to play a good dozen or so pieces really beautifully) go and get yourself the grade 6 selected pieces book and start looking at them.

That should keep you busy for quite some time, and I'm not even really a pianist. I expect the real pianists round here can give you some more ideas too.

8 months of lessons? IVE BEEN PLAYING NEARLY 3 YEARS!!! i meant ive been studying Grade 5 ALONE for 8 months

come september, i'll be starting my 4th year of study of the piano

Some of those pieces don't sound too bad. I know, off hand, that the 3rd movement of Op. 79 (Alla Tedesca) was set as a grade 7 piece a few years ago, and the timing is somewhat evil in places; how is your quaver-semiquaver-semiquaver against triplet passage?

The point is, though, I've never heard you mention these pieces before now to any great extent - all I can recall off-hand is that you've chosen a couple of grade 8 pieces, and have played Rachmaninov Preludes listed on the LRSM syllabus. Also, cramming this many pieces of this level, plus the others you've mentioned, into the relatively short length of time you've been learning the piano for suggests you mustn't have been paying too much attention to detail....

Whoa, easy there! It was an honest mistake on Sarah's part; there's no need to blow it out of all proportion.

As for pieces to study: given you've just done grade 5, the normal thing to do, I guess, would be to work on grade 5 to 6 level pieces. Try 'Hours with the Masters' book 4, there are plenty of pieces in there to play, in a range of styles.

i thought the finale of the Op.79 looked familiar...

detail...expand please?

i have book 1 of that set...i think.

right if need be, i'll even list the stuff i've done over the last 3 years and say how well i did them...would that make you guys happy?

Well that has hardly been clear from your posts telling everyone that you have done grade 5 after 8 months... Alone? I thought you had a teacher - you keep talking about one... if you are going to be so unclear, then don't be surprised when people are a bit confused about your situation. If you want people to be able to give you decent advice (on piano or any of your instruments) then do try to clarify... ie how long you have been playing, how long has been with or without a teacher, what you have been doing with your teacher or alone, etc. Grade 5 after 3 years is good but not exceptional. You do almost certainly need to start paying some serious attention to detail and not just learning pieces and then saying "oh I know that" and moving on - a stage almost everyone gets to. You need to do your exam music with your teacher if you currently have one (bit unclear here) because then you will get outside opinions on the perfect-or-not-ness of your pieces and advice in how to tackle them.

Look up ^^^ for my suggestions for repertoire. The fact you've been playing 3 years makes no real difference to what anyone has said - you'd still be crazy to jump to grade 8 after getting 111. Have you seen the scale requirements???! Grade 5 scales are am absolute piece of cake by comparison (even I can do grade 5 scales and I'm a pretty poor pianist - grade 5 pieces would have me running for cover right now)

Detail is how well you play each piece. If you spread your efforts too thinly, its unlikely that any one piece would stand up well to scrutiny. It does seem, to me, a mammoth task to have polished the number of pieces you have mentioned here and elsewhere in three/four years from starting the piano. It would be quite a challenge for someone after a grade 8 distinction, let alone from scratch.

what i mean is i spent 8 months of doing Grade 5 stuff and nothing else (except nearer towards my exam when i had my pieces very nicely sorted and started learning Debussy's La Cathederale Englouite which, i might add, i made a damn good job of)

yes im aware of scale requirements

As YAP said, there's no way I decided I'd make out you had only been learning for 8 months to annoy you - if you read back, you'll find it's the impression you have given to many people. Have you been learning your exam pieces that whole time?


You need to find someone who can listen to your playing and give you an honest opinion on how well you play them - someone who is unbiased and really knows their stuff. (which is the usual purpose of an exam) Listing them on here and saying "I played this really well" or "this was perfect" is not going to help anyone - least of all you.

Once again - no one on here is trying to get at you - everyone is simply trying to give good advice to someone who seems to be intent on a course which doesn't give the best chance for long term success and satisfaction in your music (ie jumping to grade 8 so quickly). No one is trying to rain on your parade - on the contrary, people are trying to help you make wise decisions so you get the best out of your playing and become the best pianist you can be in the long term.

Chopin - Prelude 4 (Very well done)
20 (needs polishing in a couple places)
7 (perfect in my eyes)
Minute Waltz (first section was good but soon gave up)

Mozart - Rondo Alla Turca (once perfected now a mess, must revisit)

Rachmaninov - Prelude in C# minor Op.3 No.2 (VERY well done with polishing needed on the opening theme of the Agitato and where it cropped up again nearer the end of that section)

Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata 1st movement (once extremely well played but needs revisiting)
Sonatina (needs polishing but was once perfected)

Debussy - La Cathederale Englouite (best piece ive ever played)

thats all i can think of at the moment

I'm going to quit in a minute before I start either being brutal or banging my head up against a wall.

Detail is the minutiae of the piece. As YAP comments, to have got your prodigious list of people up to a truly good level in the time frame you suggest would be hard for anyone.


If you did grade 5 stuff for 8 months than I can see why you would think you need to spend 2 years getting ready for your grade 8, but I would very seriously suggest that your time could be better spent.


In your opinion or your teacher's? Or an outside unbiased person with the expertise to know the difference? There is a big difference. Perfect is one thing I doubt most people (even the pros) to claim on any piece...


That doesn't mean it's perfect...

[quote=GoneChopinBachSoon,Jul 29 2005, 12:10 AM]what i mean is i spent 8 months of doing Grade 5 stuff and nothing else[/quote]
If you did grade 5 stuff for 8 months than I can see why you would think you need to spend 2 years getting ready for your grade 8, but I would very seriously suggest that your time could be better spent.

How?

[quote]and started learning Debussy's La Cathederale Englouite which, i might add, i made a damn good job of
[/quote]
In your opinion or your teacher's? Or an outside unbiased person with the expertise to know the difference? There is a big difference.

[/quote]

my teacher, unbiased expert opinion (head of music in school) myself and about 20 non pianists all said it was the best i've ever played

i think if this goes on much longer i'll end up being so damn confused with all the advice i wont know what to do

Myself and a whole bunch of people have just spent quite some time on this thread telling you how - try reading some of it. If it took you 8 months to get your grade 5 stuff ready then I have serious doubts as to whether grade 8 next is a good idea - but hey it's your life.

Best you've ever played doesn't mean perfect... there's a heck of a big difference between an impressive performance for a student and a diploma passing one. The diploma is a professional qualification.

Anyway I'm way too tired to beat this round my head any longer. You've had masses of really good advice on this thread - if you choose to ignore it then on your own head be it, and I am past caring and well in need of my bed.

goodnight

This thread amuses me in some twisted way

I think the problem most people have is that you could jump from Grade 5 straight to Grade 8. You could spend 2 years working hard on Grade 8 pieces. You may even manage another pass (thought it may be another low one). But many people (including myself) feel that this is contrary to the whole ethos of music exams. While you may have the qualification of a Grade 8 Piano Exam pass, you are very unlikely to have the broad depth of skills offered by someone who works their way up in a sensible manner. And it is quite annoying to people to find others progressing too quickly for their own good and achieving passes, while the idea is to have a gradual progression attaining all the underlying skills and knowledge which comes with it.

I, personally, have a huge problem with the way you describe certain pieces you can play as "perfect". I have learnt a great number of pieces and not one of them would I describe my ability to play them as perfect. Perfect is not just playing the notes on the page precisely - computers can do that better than the best pianist - it is about understanding the piece and bringing out the feeling involved. I doubt that even the best pianists on the forum would describe their playing on many, if any, pieces as "perfect", because it's like describing a painting as perfect, i.e. plain stupid.

I'm doubting your definition of perfect here too. It's difficult to say this without sounding harsh but here goes...

If it took you 8 months to do nothing but learn three grade 5 pieces and get them to the standard you played them in the exam (24 marks ish? I can't remember) then this tells me that you can't get grade 5 pieces to a standard anywhere near perfect in 8 months (and that your definition of perfect at 24 is a little different to most people's). Don't get me wrong 24 is a good mark for pieces at grade 5 for many people; but 30/30 is not even perfect so 24 is a long way off (given that 20 is 'acceptable'). I'm guessing that your other pieces (which are harder, hence requiring more work) haven't had the 8 months spent on them that the grade pieces did, certainly not the amount of work done on the exam pieces. Based on all this information I'm guessing that your definition of 'perfected' a piece lies somewhere in the fail category for ABRSM exams (not a definition many would use).

It's the last part of learning any piece that's 90% of the work and that's the hard bit, if the purpose of the LRSM exam was just to get from one end of the recital to the other in one piece then it would be a much easier exam (and quite frankly not a qualification worth having). Honestly though it's not like that, I've read about many people on these forums having passed grade 8 (some with very good marks) thinking they played well in the exam (and this is years and years of experience of knowing what well is) and who definitely got through the recital in one piece but failed: I suspect that their pieces were way better than your 'perfect' pieces but they still didn't pass. The point is it takes a lot of skill to know when your piece is 'perfect' (indeed if you ever think your piece is perfect you've not got the skill yet!) and your problem appears to be not that you can perfect LRSM pieces (or grade 5 pieces for that matter) too easily; just that you really have absolutely no idea how well you're playing and how to be critical of playing. Of course 20 non-pianists will say your playing is good they know little about what good means; as for your teacher, a teacher who is allowing you to do this and thinks that a piece getting 24 is perfect, I completely doubt their integrity (I'm with the ABRSM examiner all the way...) then again maybe they're just being polite, or being bullied into this by you.... In fact I'd bet on you being unable to break the 130 mark in grade 2 (even if you can scrape the 100 mark in two years for grade 8): you seem to have absolutely no understanding of what musicalitly is and what it means to play well.

I have a feeling that if you have to ask, it's not there.

I really am with Andante, Sarah, Another Pianist and others who have advised you not to rush into higher grades.

And for what it's worth, I was also under the impression that you had been learning only 8 months - to start with.

This is going to sound a bit brutal, but your claims of " this was perfect" and "I play this really well" remind me of a pupil I taught for a few weeks last year who claimed to be able to play various pieces.
The pieces were actually never really fluent - but the student didn't believe that there was room for any improvement - but I've done that, I can play that, I know that one really well.

I never once in about half a term heard anything that was well played from start to finish - and yet she claimed to have passed grades 5 and 6. We didn't really get on to detail much - there was so little basic fluency. There was no patience there for improving them.

I hope you are not making the same mistake. But clearly your examiner did not agree with your definition of perfect, otherwise your marks - which were reasonably good - would have been higher.

It's also clear from your marks that your ability with scales and aural has n't kept pace with the pieces you've learnt. I'd want to bring those things into a bit better balance before I look at any more grades, if I were you.

gonechopinbachsoon - you yourself earlier described music as an art that cannot be perfected - you are not perfect, and neither is your playing. neither is the playing of anyone on this board. world famous concert pianists are still making every effort to improve their performances of particular pieces, and you shouldn't be any different. enough said.

please stop obsessing about ridiculously hard pieces, far beyond your level, ie. the DipABRSM and FRSM syllabus etc. it is far more impressive to play well at grades 5/6 than to "play through" a more advanced piece, which quite frankly is nothing special. a piece can be relatively easy to play, but maddeningly difficult to play well.

so lower your sights a little - by all means play grade 8+ for fun, but r-e-a-l-l-y work on pieces of about grade 6-7 standard, and the other pieces on the grade 5 syllabus. ask your teacher for some. buy the ABRSM studies for grade 5 and 6 to work on your technique. you've done well to get a comfortable pass at grade 5 in 3 years, but you need a much more solid grounding for anything higher.

this is about the 50th time you've heard this, so i'm not holding out in the hope that you'll accept what's being said, but trust me, you don't know better than everybody else here, not to mention your examiner. read their comments again and look at how you could improve your exam pieces too. that mark form contains more valuable advice than you can find here, because it's the opinion of an experienced musician who has heard you play, where we haven't.

i already do most grade 8+ music for fun, its only 2 or 3 pieces that ive actually learnt

basic idea - dont rush doing grade 8 and do grade 6/7 first?

is that the idea?

Hello Everyone!!! Yay!!! I got my grade 6 results yesterday and I passed with distinction-137!!! Whoooooooooooo!!! I'm really pleased cos I thought I'd just pass or get merit or something so yay for me!!! And I don't mean to sound big headed or anything!!! What's everyone doing after grade 8 by the way? I know it sounds like really far ahead but hey.

Yes but remember it's not about the grade 8 pieces you do for fun; it's about the pieces you do to improve your playing which for a start should be around grade 5 level (maybe even grade 4) they're the important ones. The 'for fun' part emphasises that the grade 8 pieces should be done as an aside and are not what is helping you to learn to play the piano.


Yes, you've got it. Also try to do grades 6 & 7 as well as you can not as quickly as you can; listen to how good other people, especially your teacher, say your playing is and how they say you can improve it. Remeber doing those grades isn't just about doing the exams you should play lots of other repertoire around that level too. If you ask your teacher and they say you're playing is perfect and they have nothing to say about it then get another one who can teach you!

Well done, an excellent mark you must have played really well .

I've thought long and hard before leaping in here.......

I took my grade 5 age 15, then did grade 6 age 16. I got 117 in both - a coincidence..? I've always struggled with aurels and have a compelling urge to stop and correct mistakes. I was terrified in the exams, I was asked the G7 scales initially in my G5 which did not help!!

I was given the impression but the music teacher at school that if I didn't get my grade 8 done by the time I did my A levels, I'd never do it. So I started working for it, got the scales fluent but under speed, learnt 5 of the 1999 selections, intending to narrow it down nearer to the time. I never entered the exam - why? My teacher told me I'd only scrape a pass even if I had a good day. My playing was technically fine, but lacked the understanding of the pieces as I'd rushed into them and focussed only on *must get G8 out of the way* She felt I'd be better going to university, learning more about music and expanding my repertoire (sorry to use that phrase again!)

So I did. I'm now in final year of university, I've learnt and I think, better understood, the music I've played in the last 5-6 years. I've played G6, 7 and 8 syllabus songs as well as the full piano and/or percussion score for Oliver, Grease, West Side Story, Sweet Charity, City of Angels and 42nd Street. I've accompanied the university and medical school choir (brilliant for forcing me not to stop and correct myself!!) and had a great time.

Don't for a second think I'm boasting - I have never perfected a piece, and never will, I am a pretty ordinary pianist. I have however, become a much better musician in mine and my piano teacher's eyes without sitting a single exam.

Just my thoughts on this interesting topic.

Well done!

Couldnt have put it better SuzyMac!

This has been an interesting thread! I am still baffled as I just cannot work out what is the rush to get to G8 in 2007. You have not answered this question. My daughter did up to G3 piano exams and never took any more piano exams. She auditioned for a Conservatoire as a G8 Singer (distinction) and G8 Flute (merit). Unexpectedly she was asked to play the piano at the audition and she played at about G5 level. At the Conservatoire she was given 6 free piano lessons a year for 4 years. After Graduation some two years ago, she is considering taking her G8 piano exam and is now with a teacher, who has made it clear to her there is no rush! So please tell me why you need this G8 by 2007!

Please re-read some of the absolutely excellent advice given here. I am so proud of the contributors to this topic.

because once i finish school, i wont be able to get another piano teacher.

thats why

Do you get free lessons at school then??

Liz

from September, yes i do

Does that mean you're doing A level music?

Liz

I cannot believe how much this thread has developed since I last read it. I thought you have only been playing 8 months to get grade 5 initially. But nearly 4 years of lessons and your 1st exam was grade 5 (taking 8 months?) Most of my students take under a term to learn all the requirements for a grade. I have never had a student learn and play all their pieces over 8 months. Scales maybe but not pieces.


You have been learning longer than my 8 year old son. He started nearly 3 years ago and has grade 4 piano with distinction and since you started this thread I introduced him to the grade 5 pieces. He can play Tarantella and Diversion pretty fluently already and has started the Clementi today. But I still doubt whether I will enter him for grade 5 next term. He seems to be moving too fast an exam every other term. He has alot of repertoire under his belt but I feel he should have more even though this child is constantly playing the piano or cello. He will pick up any music and just play be it written for the trumpet/clarinet/saxophone piano or any other instrument

It was only today I had to explain to him yes you can play all the grade 5 pieces by the end of the week but they will be looking for every staccato and slur and tiny rest marked and the dynamics need to be more subtle and contrasting not just loud and soft here and there. He got that and said right like this.... then started to play in small sections with tiny details and different every time asking which of the 3-5 versions he tried were better. He also asks is it now a 20 version or a 23 version or 25/26 version. He never says am I 28-30 version !! Is that good or bad anyone? and he has experience 29 and 30 in exams before yet he still thinks he isnt perfect or for that matter any good at the piano. Although he knows most children his age cant play like him.


To say that you could list everything you have played since you started learning I couldnt even begin to list the endless books and pieces he has been through in the past 2 years. Do you ever play easier than grade 5 pieces for fun or is it just the harder stuff you do for fun?


Well done Anotherpianist on your result what an excellent mark. My son says snap as he got the same mark in his grade 2 cello but it sounds so much better at grade 6

well gee thanks for making me feel REALLY good about myself

as a matter of fact i have looked at easier stuff like the Burgmuller Op.100, including a Grade 2 Piece.

plus i had to learn ALL my scales from scratch...even C major

you bet

Absolutely perfectly put! I thoroughly agree with every word



I'm sorry to say that 'myself' is all you seem to think about!

Ah well then, that means you'll have a bit more time to work on your piano since performance is an integral part of the A level - some of your practice can count as homework. So maybe grade 8 won't be beyond your reach, but do get 6 and 7 first.

liz

Just thought you should know you mustnt think that you are brillant and be too confident in yourself. There are alot of music students out there that are very good all rounders. It is a tough to get grade 8 and diploma never mind actually scoring merit/distinctions. I have to explain this to my son as he is so young. If you want to achieve the high grades quickly ( he does too) you have to have a good solid foundation. Your exam results reflect what you are missing.... I know you had a bad day over some aspects of your playing but still you are scoring on the lower end of the marking scheme. I think you need to read the marking scheme in the book THESE MUSIC EXAMS. You can get a copy from the music shop and it is FREE. The marking scheme is at the back of the book. It tells you how to score high. If you read it you will know what you have to work on.

Before an exam with my own children we always record the piece we are playing then they listen to themselves play and use the table from the music exam book and tick what they can hear being played. If they cant hear it then they have to improve it. They hate recording themselves on tape and even more so on camcorder. It reflects things that they would rather not know. lol

But hey they are very young and want to be good, I needed evidence to show them that it was not just me being picky mum. I know my job as it were but it is really hard teaching your own kids.

I hope this is some helpful advice we are all trying to help you as you do not sound like you have the solid enough foundations for grade 8 yet.

I wish Margaret would post here as she has an experience of a student with a lack of technique that cost him the exam and I dont think he was rushing.

that comment by itself indicates that your pieces had been allowed to get way ahead of other areas of your playing and technique.

can't resist - there's a way to learn scales other than from scratch ??? - someone tell me please - it'll save me a heap of time!

Your user name is cool i just realised what it is means!

Hi there everyone. Thought I would add my thoughts to this interesting discussion.

This of course goes back to the whole questions of exams and their uses (and abuses). GoneChopinBachSoon is a typical example of a pupil who thinks in terms of exams and somehow feels their self-worth as a musician is tied up with how quickly and how high a grade they can pass at a relatively young age.

GoneChopinBachSoon so many teachers here have spent time giving you their advice. Many have really shared some quite painful experiences with you in order that you don't fall into the trap so many people out there have. It is of course entirely up to you to set your own goals. We all learn by our own mistakes. The people on this board are a caring bunch - we don't want you to do aim for something that in the long run isn't worth having. Its interesting to note that the specialist music schools tend not to put people in for exams - preferring in many cases to allow their talented pupils to develop, broaden out, experience many many different pieces of music, work on technical excellence etc etc without the confines of an exam.

A few thoughts:

Your progress having started relatively late is not at all unusual. I have had several pupils reach grade 4 standard in under a year and many gained distinctions.

As far as University Tariff points are concerned a Distinction at Grade 7 is worth more points than a Pass at grade 8

Think about entering music festivals and local competitions. This will give you a goal and a chance to compare yourself with others. For example you could enter a class for your age and classes for various composers and styles

If you look at the book "these music exams" you will see that Grade 1-5 and grade 6-8 are marked differently. Much more is expected at the higher grades

Just as you can write an English essay on Jane Eyre for GCSE and score an A* the exact essay at A level might fail.

Please don't feel undermined by my reply (and the others) Try and be open to other people's thoughts.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

yes I see what you mean Fen!

I jumped to the conclusion that GSBS meant he had started learning scales since deciding to take the exam, but this may have been a wrong assumption in which case sorry!