I have been playing the bassoon for about ... 7 months now. I took my G2 last week and am still waiting for the results. My problem is that I can't get the embouchere right. I play it like it's a clarinet (my first wind instrument)! Has anyone got any tips? I really need to sort it out before I will be able to progress to the higher grades..

Thanks!

DO NOT PLAY IT LIKE A CLARINET

wrap your lips around your teeth (both upper AND lower) press on the reed and play

thats all i can say

Hello Natalie-Marie,

Do you have a teacher for bassoon? The embouchure for bassoon is very different from that for the clarinet, and it really helps to get a teacher who plays the bassoon to get you started.

yes, I do. All he says is that I am playing flat. I KNOW I'm playing flat, but he doesn't really go over how it's meant to be played or how I could play it and it not be flat.

And since it's the holidays, I thought I had better sort it out!



I realise that I shouldn't be playing it like a clarinet...hence my asking about the correct way to play it.

NM

GCBS you are so full of it. Sorry but is the Bassoon one of the endless list of instruments that you are trying..... that you havent listed.


Do you know how to play it?


Back to the question.... have you tried putting more of the reed in your mouth.

You need to press your lips together but further in the reed so the hole in the reed is still open on the edge otherwise the air is just coming out of the side of your lips. Is that what is happening? Also I find this with the oboe particularly that if I suck my diaphragm/or tummy in and then blow a fast speed of air through I am less flat.

The oboe is much harder for me than the clarinet and flute. I have only ever tried the bassoon a few times and I found it easier than the oboe maybe cos the reed is bigger.

Good luck let us know how it goes.

From oboe experience I know there are several reasons for playing flat.

If you play flat throughout all registers you can even suspect the length of the crook/reed. But it's likely to be a combination of embouchure and breath control.

Has your teacher checked your breathing? And, even if you have your lips drawn over your teeth you aren't pressing on the reed with your teeth? You shouldn't be supporting/controlling the reed with teeth-covered lips, mainly just taut lips. (It takes time to get a decent embouchure. - However, I don't know if you need more support with your teeth on the bassoon -I doubt it) And as frumpybabes says, you have the "right amount" of reed in your mouth.

Do you practice long sustained notes 1) at different, constant dynamics and 2) crescing and dimming? (Choose an easy note mid-register, say C and oct up from your bottom C to start).

It really needs a teacher or experienced player to diagnose the problem. But try the long-notes practice using a fresh embouchure for each note if you need to. Make sure the breathing comes from your diaphragm and isn't constricted in your throat. Just blowing harder doesn't raise the pitch. You have to be in tune at all dynamic levels (allowing for the bottom notes (like the oboe) that are difficult to play quietly.

Another exercise is someone to sound a note on a piano or even a pitchpipe. You fix this note in your mind then think it, then coax it out of the instrument.

And try a little more and little less reed in your lips. A millimetre can make a lot of difference.

Thanks frumpybabes and Franchonard for your help... I will endeavour to practise more and follow the tips and speak to my teacher about it in September!

NM

NONONONONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't press your lips together!!!! Don't press on the reed!!!!

Ever!!!!

It's called biting and it's a bad Bad BAD thing to do!!!!

(Yes, it calls for 4 exclamation marks!!!!)

Your top lip should be further along the reed than the bottom lip. Both lips should be relaxed (only just tense enough to get the reed vibrating in the first place, it shouldn't be difficult to make a sound on a bassoon if you have a decent reed).

Bassoon embouchere shouldn't ever be compared to oboe embouchere, they're completely different and incompatible.

If you played a bassoon like you would an oboe, you'd just be sabotaging your own efforts (and your tone would greatly suffer).

If you are a "beginner" bassoonist (1 year or less, I'd say), it's perfectly normal and expectable for you to be flat. Your pitch will gradually rise (most likely to the point where you are sharp) as you get used to the instrument.

That's not to say that you can't remedy it. Flatness is remedied by increasing air speed (this will also do wonders for your tone!).

Hope this helps!

By the way, for reference:

The bassoon embouchere is closer to flute embouchere than anything else. Single-reed instruments are to double-reeds as apples are to oranges, and the oboe is too tense.

As an occasional beginner bassoon teacher, it seems flautists usually have more success in the "early days" because the embouchere isn't a big deal, they just gotta get used to the reed in their mouth (this is if they haven't attempted a reed instrument before).

Ok, ok! I won't play it like a clarinet or an oboe!

seriously though, thanks for all your help.

Btw, how serious is "serious" when you say you are a serious bassoonist? How long have you been playing, and what sort of grade are you?

(if you don't mind the questions!)

NM

My bassoon teacher always told me to think "oooh" shape when regarding my embouchure, if that's of any help.

being a flautist, i used to be "smiley" rather than "ooohy"

Ooooh. That is really helpful! My mouth looks exactly like the mouth in LAYP book!

Cheers!

NM

That's the book I used as well

Hello Natalie-Marie,

I would love to show you my bassoon embouchure if we were in the same city. It's really rather difficult to describe in words, and a picture is really worth a thousand words. Have you tried browsing the web for pictures of professional bassoon players? You can get a good idea if you observe closely.

In short, the bassoon embouchure is similar to the oboe embouchure (sorry zauberfagott, I would have to disagree with you). The difference is that you take more reed in your mouth, and many players play with an overbite, i.e. the front teeth/lip are more forward on the reed (cover more reed) than the lower teeth/lip. A good rule-of thumb for how far you should go is to make the shape of the reed inside your mouth look like a square (if the reed is two inches wide, take two inches of the reed in the mouth -- that's a good starting point).

For clarinet, I believe you would curl your lower lips and put your upper teeth on the mouthpiece. For bassoon, you would want to curl both upper and lower lips so that your teeth is never in contact with the reed. Try to apply as little pressure on the reed as possible, and blow a focused stream of air through the reed -- the air should flow fast. It takes time to develop the abdominal muscles for that.

I think the "oooh" shape Symphony's bassoon teacher mentioned refers to the shape of the throat (the vowel) rather than that of the lips.

I should have asked: do you have a teacher for bassoon who plays the bassoon himself/herself? It's important to have a teacher who knows how to play instrument properly. If he/she is having trouble teaching you the right way or demonstrating you the proper method, it's time to move on to another teacher. Bad habits can be hard to unlearn later on.

Yeah my teacher plays, but I haven't seen him play at all. He is strange. He has a go at me for doing it wrong and when I ask how I am doing it wrong and how to do it right, he says, "do this, do this" and when I still can't do it because of his bad instructions, he is like..."ah well practise some"

NM

Nope nope, she meant the lips alright As though I were saying 'ooh' - whenever I remembered, it worked lol but ... symphony+bassoon=no go

Doesn't sound like the best teacher to me ... I hope you will find one who would play for you. I can't think of any reason a teacher wouldn't play for his student, particularly at a newcomer level.

I have had very bad as well as world-class teachers and it certainly makes a huge difference

I've been playing for 5 years -- I was considered something of a "prodigy" (that's what happens when you practise 2 hours a day and 4 hours on Saturdays and Sundays from the very beginning, I guess)

I would estimate that I'm around grade 8 AMEB (what's that in ABRSM?), hope to take my AMusA exam sometime (when I get around to it, assuming that I keep going on bassoon rather than swap to composition instead).

I'm studying music (in my 1st year) at the WA Conservatorium, on bassoon. So I must be OK

Sorry, I have to disagree.

If you play a bassoon how you would play an oboe, your tone will greatly suffer.

The amount of reed you put in your mouth depends on the register.

If you had a section mainly in the lower register (as in bottom of bass clef to below the bass clef), your lips should be closer to the tip.

If you were playing mostly above the bass clef, (especially notes better suited to the treble clef!) your lips should be closer to the wires.

It also depends on your reed, you should experiment to find the best amount of reed you need to have in your mouth for the best response.

If your embouchere is relaxed, your teeth shouldn't be too near the reed and you'll only need to curl your lips a little bit.

Hi zauberfagott,

The bassoon embouchure is not the same as the oboe embouchure, but I find more similarity between them than between the bassoon embouchure and the flute embouchure.

Adjustment according to register changes is done on the oboe as well, I just didn't want to flood Natalie-Marie with too much information.

By the way, I play both the oboe and the bassoon.

Hi Wai Kit Leung,

I noticed you play the bassoon, that doesn't mean I can't disagree with you, though

It's only a little point and I don't disagree with you entirely. Of course bassoons and oboes have related emboucheres, both having those terrible things known as double-reeds.

By the way, I happen to have a worksheet (courtesy of my fantastic tutor) saying:

"parallel" lips = sharper, thinner tone
"round" lips = flatter, fuller, resonant tone.

Very good reason for playing with an "overbite". IMHO

Always wanted to play the oboe. Got stuck with the big thing instead. Damn clowns