Hello,

I'm working on Schubert Impromptu 3 from Op 142 over the holidays (just the theme plus variations IV and V so far, will start on Var III later in hols and Var I & II in next term if I'm coping with those). My teacher hurriedly scribbled in some suggested fingering, which I am using in conjunction with my own ideas, but we didn't really have time to discuss it in depth, and this is the first piece I have played with much in the way of octaves. I'd really appreciate any advice at all as regards learning this piece. Specifically:

Are there any rules or bits of useful technique I should know as regards octave playing in general, as I haven't really come across it before? At the moment I'm just trying to practise a little every day (of this, more of less demanding things) as my right hand gets tired of the stretch fairly quickly.

This is the first Schubert I've played - and I love it! - is there anything stylistically I should take into account when learning his music?

I'm open to all advice and suggestions, thanks for your help .

Regards,

Fred x

the B flat impromptu?! oh lordy thats a tough one!

alternating between a black note to a white note, right hand use 1 4 on the black note, and 1 5 on the proceeding white note (and vice versa)

left hand same

oh lord thats a tough impromptu!

use 14 on a black note then 15 on the proceeding white note

is this legato octaves ( i don't know the piece) you might find them a little tricky at first, might be easiest starting with the chromatic scale, right hand only, in octaves.
the fingering i'd use would be fingers 1 & 4 on all black keys except Bb and Eb, where i'd use 1 & 3.
on all white notes, use 1 & 5, except E and B, where i'd use 1&4.
try to get a smooth progression with no pedal. just one octave at a time until you get used to it. this should help your hand survive the stretches.

in the actual piece your thumb will always be the lowest note in the octave stretch, and either finger 3,4,or 5 (usually 4 or 5) will be the top note. you should change this top finger if you move an octave i.e. if you moved from F# to G you would play 1&4 then 1&5. your thumb 'slides' from the F# to the G, and an octave above this your fourth finger moves to your 5th. this may be no help at all as i don't know the piece , but it's still a useful technique to have

Thanks very much for replying. Yes, this is legato octaves (at least, most of the parts I am looking at so far are). It is mostly manageable to play legato, but there are some jumps (eg, F down to C-flat) which I will just have to work on keeping as smooth/quick as possible. I'm keeping well away from the temptation to pedal until I get to the memorised-and-working-on-interpretation stage.

Thanks for the suggestion of using chromatics to get accustomed to octave fingering, I will certainly do that.

Hi Fred

I wouldn't suggest to any of my students that they play the octaves without pedal unless they are marked staccato.

The purpose of the sustaining pedal is actually to enhance the tone quality you produce; the fact that it also facilitates legato in situations where it would otherwise be impossible is a happy by-product.

Most of the octaves in this work are accompanied by some sort of broken chord figuration that also benefits from the pedal - bear in mind that Schubert was an early Romantic, so a Mozart-like clarity is not often required.

To avoid, or at least alleviate tiredness in the hand playing the octaves, remember not to carry on pressing once you have played one. At the piano, play any old octave and press hard for a few seconds, then lighten the weight to the point where you are only just holding the key down. You will feel the difference at once.

You can also use a combination of sustaining pedal to create the legate for you, and a freely flowing arm to loosen any tension that builds up - it is this tension that causes tiredness. Try this to get the idea: slowly play a rh octave scale; legato pedal each one so you can let go of the keys as soon as you have played them; support the weight of your arm from your shoulder and let your wrists and forearms be loose and flexible; you should be 'stroking' the keys as you play, rather than 'hitting' them.

General principles when playing Schubert:
* His favourite genre was song, so treat most pieces as a 'song without words' i.e. with a sweet singing tone and gentle accompaniment. Having said that, there is more to the accompaniment than is instantly obvious, so look for opportunities to counterpoint the melody.
* Shape the phrases as a singer would. The ends of the phrases sometimes benefit from a little extra space in the way a singer in a lyrical song will take extra time, although without actually stopping the sound as a singer would.
* Avoid sentimentality.
* Remember that Schubert composed for a piano with a poor sustaining pedal mechanism. Many of his articulation markings reflect this, we tend to play differently on a modern instrument. Listen to recordings and you will hear, for example, many pianists produce a beautiful tone in the opening of this piece by using the pedal and not detaching at all; others will combine both.

Hope all this helps

Steve

I came across an article on the internet on how to develop an octave technique. I thought you might be interested. Heres the website where I found it

http://www.leopoldgodowsky.com/articles.shtml

Steve, thank you so much for all this useful advice. I'm printing this out to keep by the piano, I'm sure I'll be referring to it a lot in the future.

Chopet, thanks for the link. It looks like too serious reading for sitting at the computer (the computer seems to interfere with my brainwaves or something ) so I'm printing it out to absorb more slowly.

Thanks again,

Fred

When playing octaves I treat the top note as the melody and bring it out more, whereas I tend to lighten the lower note, which creates a nicer tone quality than if both notes are the same weight. And I suppose the fingering all depends on how large or small your hands are - I have small hands so have trouble sometimes with trying to use legato fingering (i.e. 1-4 on black and 1-5 on white.)

I have been told (and am trying to put advise into practise) that the best way to learn to play a passage in octaves is start *slowly* and make your hand go down to play the first notes, then straight up, along to the next notes, straight down and then straight up, along etc.

Once you speed up you'll lose the "up, along and down"action but I am *told* that practising in this way really makes a difference in the long run.

Hi Fred
You don't actually say how old you are - I'm 12 and I have only been able to play in octaves for the past 9 mths. I think I had a growth spurt and my hand span increased!
If you are young or slightly built maybe your span just isn't wide enough yet and time will solve the problem.

Well, he's old enough to have kids so you would hope he's fully developed

Do you read the profile on everyone before posting a reply?
Fred even says on his that he doesn't expect anyone to read it!
I was only trying to be helpful .. I'll go back into my shell now.

And 'he' is a 'she'.....

Oops...

Hi everyone,

thanks for all your comments - I've been away all weekend so I'm just catching up now.

NZman don't go back into your shell - thanks for the advice, but if hand span is a problem it ain't going to improve . I can stretch a 10th without extra notes - it's just the constant stretch for long passages that my hand isn't used to. I expect it will come with practise.

StuMac, thanks. I am taking it really slowly as I'd like to make a good job of this piece in the long term, rather than an adequate rushed job. Chocolate dog, thanks for reminding me to think about the melody rather than just struggling with the technical aspect of how to play The Notes.

And Trebor, yes, my user name is misleading.

Thanks again,

Fred x