I am looking into the possibility of doing some sort of formal music education in the future so I am interested in hearing about any experiences you may have had studying music as a mature student. Where and what courses did you study? Was it full or part time. Are there any courses you are considering doing in the future but are still summoning up the courage and/or funds to apply for? Do you have music A level? Music wasn't available as a subject at my school so I would have to do an Access course if I wanted to do a degree! Not that that is a possibility in the near future- I'd need to get a bit better and quite a lot richer first!! I haven't been able to find anywhere that offers to teach adults A level Music- why should the kids have all the fun?

All information & stories gratefully received. Thanks.

I did a diploma in Music with the OU, which was absolutely brilliant. I learned a lot especially in the second year.

http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?Q02D22

More detail here.

Depends where you live. If you're within reach of London for one afternoon a week, then the London College of Music & Media in Ealing might even be an option. They are based at Thames Valley Uni in St Mary's Road.

They offer a BMus by part-time study, or you could even become an Associate Student and just take the performance modules to begin with and then add on the academic bits at a later date.

You don't need to have taken any exams previously, but you are required to be of at least Grade 8 standard on your principal study.

I believe about 70% of people studying there are "mature part-time students".

Another plus for all those who are asking "Am I too old to learn"
...NO,NO,NO,NO,NO..you're not too old.......how many times does it need to be said!!!!

Following on from what I've said, after finishing music college I studied part-time for a BSc in Physics. Apart from the mental stimulation formal study gives you, you'll also meet some great like-minded people who have a passion for the same subject and are studying because they WANT TO, not because they are being forced to or feel they have to - like a lot of teenage students.

I'm still toying with the idea of studying for either an MMus or a PhD in music, or even an MSc...or perhaps all three eventually . As much as I like the idea of being the 'eternal student', money is the biggest issue because post-grad courses cost 1000's of pounds a year Unless you can find a sponsor it usually means having to get loans to pay the fees.

That looks interesting, Jane - a lady I met at the G5 Theory exams this summer had done an OU diploma in Music and really enjoyed it too - I might think about that as a retirement project.

Jen

Jen W
Thanks for the OU suggestion.That certainly is an option I hadn't considered. Can I be really cheeky and ask if you had work &/or family committments whilst you were doing it. If so it must have taken an awful lot of effort & discipline to complete.How did you manage? Even after work my life doesn't seem to be my own these days. Feel free not to answer if I'm being too nosy!

AmandaL
Yes I'm within easy reach of London and work part time around my children. I hadn't found LCMM in my searches so thanks very much for that. I'm not yet at Grade 8 standard but it's not an impossibility in the next couple of years. The associate student performance modules would be ideal when I get there! The part time BMUS still wants music A level as an entry requirement.They also do a BMUS including a foundation course but even this still wants music GCSE. I have neither GCSE nor A Level music and haven't found anywhere that would teach either to adults. It wasn't available at my school. Morley college in London do a really good looking access course but its full time. Money would therefore be a problem at present. It looks like I'll have to content myself with tackling Grade 6 theory for the immediate future and dream of winning the lottery!

Hi Clarissa - it's Jane who's done the OU dip - but I'll be interested in her replies too!

Jen

Hi it was me did the OU dip.

No kids but husband and dog to support. I have 2 jobs, one full time and one part time, so not easy to fit to in around that, plus commitments to orchestra and quartet 2 evenings a week. However I found it so interesting it was a pleasure to do...and summer school was absolutely fab! The first year started from grass roots so the first half of that year was easy, and plain sailing. But I remember about July time once it got to figured bass and harmony I was into unchartered water. Its important with the OU that you have a supportive family and network, and that you are really disciplined about putting aside study time. If you can do both of those then its a (relative) piece of cake.

The only thing putting me off the OU is the lack of the practical side.

Isn't it mainly theory with a residential week ?

I would love to do something extra past G6 theory along those lines, but I want more of apractical side as well.

Fiona

Hmmm yes. There is no practical. Other than at summer school where you are encouraged to take your instrument(s) and join in the end of course concert. And if you have no instrument then you join the choir!

We had a small chamber string ensemble and played one of the pieces we had studied on the course, which was quite good. But then that is only 1 week out of 2 years.

AmandaL

I would say that if you want to do postgrad studies & if there is ANY WAY that you can finance them then go for it! You only get one life (this comment is not intended to spark a debate on reincarnation) so make the most of any opportunities available and do your best to find them where none appear to exist. When you get really old you don't want to be looking back over your life regretting not having done this or that thing when you really wanted to!

Money would be a HUGE problem for me if I wanted to do any full time courses. If it was just myself to consider I'd find a way, but having a family & mortgage really restricts your options. I would love to pass grade 8, do an access course-full time followed by a BMUS full time. 4 years full time study in something I'm interested in. What a delight that would be! Unfortunately part time is my only option at present as we can't manage without my salary! Still you can dream....

Janexxx
Sorry for getting the names wrong I was looking at Jen w's quote. I'm a newbie at this & will be more carefull in future!

All I can say is *** wow***. Are you sure Superman wasn't your father! You are an inspiration to us all. OU is definately under consideration for next year-Hubby will have to do the ironing!! Seriously how did you get on in areas where you need feedback, like harmony, where there is no one right answer but lots of opportunities for wrong ones! Was your tutor available on the phone to answer any questions or was the only contact through the return of marked TMAs? My only concern with OU would be a lack of direct contact. Did you find this a problem at all?

I can only sing the praises of OU tutors (my part time job is as an OU tutor ). If you have never experienced studying with the OU then I guess it might be a concern. No need to worry.

Honestly your tutor is only ever a phone call away, and there is also online conferencing which is great, where there are current students, ex-students and tutors all competing to answer anyones query. There are face to face tutorials where you can do exercises in groups and with your tutor, and the tutorial student groups very often exchange phone numbers and email addresses and form ad-hoc study groups.

The support system is great. Like Amanda I am considering doing my Masters, and if I do it will definitely be through the OU. I am thinking of starting next Feb (will need to enrol in October if I do).

I, too, would like to study music through the OU - sadly, I'm already registered as a full-time student at another institution so I'm not allowed quite yet

As for performance modules - for the MA (Mus) they optionally allow an FRSM to be substituted for one of the three modules. I think they chose to do this as it allows them, essentially, to out-source the necessary infrastructure to support a performance module by allowing the AB to handle it for them. With the claim that an FRSM is the same level as master's level performance modules, it's also good to see that it can be used as such.

Edit: looking at the credit transfer site, it appears that a DipABRSM counts for '35 points at level 1 with a "BA" designation' and an LRSM counts for '65 points at level 2 with a "BA" designation'.

Looking at what one needs for one's FRSM written submission and viva knowledge, it seems like the master's modules would be excellent preparation; as such, my plan - ultimately - is to do two of the three modules before an FRSM. (I know, forward planning given I've only just done my Dip.... ) Another plus of the FRSM, too, is that it's cheaper than a master's module (£500 instead of £1080 if memory serves - still not cheap, but every little helps).

I have a lot of respect for the OU in general and personally think that it should receive a great deal more government subsidy - not only does it encourage life-long learning (a good thing in my opinion), but by allowing people to study whilst working the burden on the taxpayer is reduced substantially. I wouldn't be suprised if many OU students would still be making a net contribution to the government's coffers even if their course fees were covered by the state

Jane, if I may ask just out of curiosity: what subject are you an OU tutor in?

It's the Cert in Management which is the first stage of the MBA. I did an MBA with the OU which is how I got the OU bug, and after graduating there was this awfully big gap in my life (its sad isn't it). So I thought "what shall I learn now? I know, I'll learn to play the violin!!"

And as if that wasn't enough I missed the OU so much I started tutoring

*gasps* Puts the MA course fees into perspective doesn't it . Didn't know you were so multi-talented!

Clarissa,

As a mature student I'm sure you would be able to offer a substitute for the A level music - such as having studied the level 2 music course with the OU, or gaining equivalent knowledge. I've yet to find a uni that doesn't accept alternatives, or even qualifications from "the university of life".

When I applied for my BSc in Physics at UCL, they would ideally have liked an A level pass in both physics and maths, preferably at grade B. I had a grade C in physics and hadn't even sat A level maths!! However they accepted the fact that as a mature student what I lacked in academic qualifications, I made up for in maturity and my approach to studying.

I'll second that. I just can't imagine I will ever stop, or indeed want to stop, learning - whether it be a totally new subject or post-grad in something I've already studied. I kinda' thrive on continuously fresh mental input!!

I'm afraid I'm not a natural student.
At school I always left things to the last minute (or later) and one of my recurring bad dreams is about not coping with the workload very well at school.

Not sure how I would cope with higher level study... was hard doing later theory grades and the lay training at church.

I really admire those people who can self motivate so well.

Sounds like you'd fit right in

Clarissa, if you're anywhere near the delights of Sunny Croydon then I run an interesting musicianship class for adults - 3 of my current students post on these fora so they'll no doubt be able to tell you what torture I put them through *not*!!

Do PM me if you'd like to know more

But I did manage to get all the cocert planning done on schedule....

What makes you think I didn't study like that for my degree(s)?? If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would've got done.

I think choosing a subject you either have a good grounding in, or something you've got a deep interest in is always the safest route to take when it comes to higher education.

I did that too as part of the BA. You get withdrawal symptoms though. I'm thinking of going back and doing something else. Wish they'd find a means of offering a degree just in music - perhaps in conjunction with one of the music examining bodies.

Liz

Cyrilla - Thanks I've sent you a PM.

Does anyone have any further info on the part time course at Thames Valley University. I see from the website that the course last 7 years part time, which sounds a bit daunting. Has anyone embarked on this?

Claire- I have no further information other than what's on their web site but I WOULD IMAGINE that the 7 years would be the MAXIMUM time available in which to complete all the components of the course. I would presume there would be nothing to stop you doing it quicker. The course is set up as if you were doing it over 3 years full time so allowing for timetabling I would assume you could take between 3 & 7 years (depending on your personal circumstances) to complete the course, with a time barr coming into effect after the 7 years.

I'm only guessing here so if anyone either agrees or knows different or has had experience of doing a degree part time please let us know. Thanks

I don't know about that one Claire, but you would normally be given between 6-8 years in which to complete a part time PhD, and you must take at least 4, so I imagine this course similarly has a minimum and maximum time to completion

I know, I'd love to do one of those, and they're so nearly there! Looking at the Music courses offered at undergraduate level, one can do 270 credits worth of modules - tantalisingly close to the 360 needed for a BA. In fact, with some credit transfer of other music qualifications, I'm sure one could have 360 music credits but, alas, the BA still wouldn't be in music

Most unis put what is considered the max time it would take a student studying part time. Nominally it's around 4 to 5 years for BMus.

This is based on the fact that there is often a limit on how many units/modules you are allowed to study in an academic year if you are to be classified as a part-time student.

For info; Roehampton University based between Kingston and Wimbledon in south west London (part of the University of Surrey) also part-time BMus degrees.

270 credits? really? I had a good look at OU stuff just a couple of months ago and missed that. I only got 150 credits of music - the maximum you could do, and not enough, by 30 points, to allow me to register for a Music PGCE if i wanted to - not that I do want to since I am a qualified teacher and have taught music up to A level, but perhaps it could cause me a headache if ever I wanted to go back because of GTC registration. I know I would have had problems trying to register for secondary music with Scotland for example, because i inquired a few years ago when i thought I might move there. I'd have to prove 30 points worth of diplomas and that could be difficult as my diploma is an LGSM which doesn't seem to be registered with QCA.

I'm blathering - bad habit!!

Liz

Level 1
- An Introduction to the Humanities (A103), 60 credits

Level 2
- The Technology of Music (TA225), 30 credits
- Understanding Music: Elements, Techniques and Styles (A214), 60 credits

Level 3
- From Composition to Performance: Musicians at Work (AA302), 60 credits
- Studies in Music 1750-2000: Interpretation and Analysis (AA314), 60 credits

Even excluding the level 1 module, that's 210 credits of material.

Many thanks Clarissa and Jen. These part time courses have given me much food for thought. I had an email back from Thames Valley today saying essentially that they are quite relaxed about applicants not having grade 8 or A level music etc if they are capable of doing the course. All I have to do now is get through an audition!!!

Shows how unobservant I am!

Liz

Remember, auditions for music courses are essentially about demonstrating your potential. A good solid foundation and technique, backed up with a firm knowledge of Grade 8, or equivalent, scales and technical work. Avoid fancy or 'showy' pieces for auditions, unless you're absolutely certain you can pull them off on the day. First movement of a concerto (some establishments will state which), plus a contrasting 19th or 20th century piece, is what's usually required.

They are not exams - exams are all about showing how technically and musically brilliant you already are.

I'm being thick, I think... but what WOULD it be in if all the modules and transferred credits were in music?

Worry not, thickness doesn't come into it It would be a 'BA tailored to your own requirements'; from what I can gather, in practice this means you get a graded BA without a specific subject designation and an academic transcript to show what you studied to anyone who asks. It's probably red tape which stops it being called a BA in Music

*grins*


Ahhh right - thank you!

Hi

I recently did Music A level as a mature student. I would reccommend that you contact your local council, that's how I managed to get into it. I was with college students when I did mine, but it was ok and I enjoyed every minute of it. It was great to work alongside some very talented young musicians. Another idea might be to search online for adult education centres near you, you never know, they might be offering it somewhere.

Good luck.

Joy

I'm 33 and doing A Level music, I'm having to squeeze it into daytime classes as there are no A Level music night classes in Cardiff, where I live, but working in a call centre (yuk! but it pays money!) gives me a certain amount of flexibility. I'm in my A level class with 17-18 year olds and a couple of 23-24 year olds but I have no problem with that, I fit in really well with them, especially as I don't look or dress anywhere near my age - I have a 22 year old boyfriend after all ! We all get on very well and I have really enjoyed the first year of classes

The only other option here is the RWCMD which holds a Saturday class in A level music, but I'm not feeling very happy with them at the moment. . . (anyone who's read my other posts will know why!)

I would have loved to be a mature music student, but I am most certainly not good enough to gain entry onto a degree course at the moment. After the RWCMD refused me for lessons on their "access" scheme as they didn't think I had any "potential" then its very doubtful that I'd be accepted as a degree student! I already have a degree, in ancient and medieval history, although I have not used it . . .

Had my first piano lesson in 7 years last night, it went fantastic. and felt great...


Can't wait until the next one


Andy

Good for you keep it up .

I always wanted a Masters degree, so back in 1993 I enrolled on the performance Masters at Huddersfield Uni.

Much good stemmed from that. At the time, I was teaching loads of private pupils, was a part-time Head of Music in a 6th form college and maintaining a reasonable schedule of sosl recitals, accompaniments and the occasional concerto (yes, I was also a certifiable workaholic).

I had fortnightly lessons with a wonderful teacher, Prabhu Singh; Prab has subsequently, tragically died of cancer. A huge loss, in my opinion. He helped me adjust my seating position at the piano; this alone lead to vastly more freedom in my playing thant I ever enhoyed before.

I did't even come close to finishing the course - far too busy - but those few months as a mature student have influenced my career for the better, ever since.

Steve

Hello all, I'm new to this forum, although I've browsed it occasionally.
I'd just like to say that I am now part way through a BMus having started part-time evening classes at Goldsmiths College (Uni of London) in South London. They run all sorts of music evening classes which you can take just for enjoyment or as part of an accredited course. They run from pre-foundation level through to certificate level. Having completed the certificate course you can then transfer to their degree programme ( part-time if you like), or go on to study elsewhere.
It's been hard work fitting everything in, but I've got an enormous amount out of it. The good thing about enroling on a course like this, is that you're in the 'same boat' as everyone else. Coming in after a rotten day at work, preferring to be in front of the TV with a glass of vino...that sort of thing.
I'd say 'if you fancy doing it..go ahead. Don't delay. If you don't like it, or it isn't for you, you can always drop it and pick it up again at a later date. I promised myself that I'd just take it a week at a time. Years later, I'm still 'ploughing on'.

All the best
Iona

Hello Iona, welcome to the forums.

I'm not too far from you in south London. Your course sounds great -
btw a friend of mine from choir works in the library at Goldsmiths.

Thanks for the welcome maggiemay. A friend in the library ehh? It's always good to know people in the right places when it comes to settling fines :-)

Yes. I think G/Smith's offers a brilliant way 'in' to music for all manner of people. When I was looking at how to get back into a formal music education I checked out the O.U. (in fact I have some of the course materials from the O.U.- they're brilliant), and also TVU, (or what was the London College of Music). TVU are a little too far away, and the O.U. didn't offer the practical side of things. At G/smiths I got to do composition, analysis, and performance as well as History, and so it ticked all the boxes for me. It set me off on the right path anyway.

Iona

Hi Iona

This sounds interesting & something I may consider in a few years' time when I retire - may I ask what experience/qualifications you had before embarking on the certificate course? The only music exams I've taken so far are grade 4 piano & grades 3,4 & 5 theory, so I was wondering whether I'd need to do more theory before taking a certificate level course. (I'm currently working my way through the grade 6 books and want to take the exam next year, but other commitments keep interfering with the study at the moment!)

Jen

Hello Jen,

As people come from all musical backgrounds, entry to G/Smiths run their own 'access' test. Everyone who applies for whatever level sits the same test which has questions which increase in difficulty the further through the paper you get. (Part of it is aural). Then , according to the results they place you in whatever level they consider you to have reached. So officially you don't need any formal qualifications to join a course. I no longer have my prospectus, but I think Grade 5 theory (as long as you can remember it all ! ) would see you at Foundation level. There's also a small audition on your instrument and an interview.
The test isn't at all intimidating. Everyone turns up on the same day with their instrument, sits the test has a break and then comes back for the interview and audition. Really, if you apply you're likely to get on to one level or another. They even have a pre foundation level for those who haven't got very far at all with their music studies. They then coach you through the different levels up to degree level. I think it's a good system considering not everyone has ABRSM exams, and some people who've never sat an exam in their lives are brilliant at music, but have nothing to show for it. I had never sat any exams (exam phobia!), but was about Grade 7/8 on my instrument and had kept up with my theory. Somehow I managed to scrape straight on to the Certificate course. They do tend to prefer it if you do the Foundation first.
You can check their website www.goldsmiths.ac.uk. It comes under PACE )professional and Community Education).
All the best
iona

Thanks Iona - I'll have a look at their website. I've a few years yet (well, four to be precise) before I'll be looking at courses, so I think carrying on with the ABRSM theory exams is a good idea in the meantime (hmm, not sure how far I'll get with the practical in four years, but you never know..... )