As a teacher, I am sometimes asked to recommend or view a piano that a pupil may want to buy and quite often I find this a daunting task with the amount of models there are. Also, most people I teach would only have a modest budget of up to £1000 to be honest and so quite often they end up buying some obscure second hand piano. I know there is a piano handbook that you can get but to be honest, I don't get asked that often for it to be an issue but I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions and experiences of various makes and ones to be avoided. Apart from the obvious well known makes, when I am confronted by an unknown make, I have nothing to go on but how the piano plays and whether or not I like it's tone and touch. I have though made one major blooper over the years, compounded by the fact that it was a purchase by a relative, when I recommended purchasing a Lindner piano purely on the basis that it was overstrung and had a nice tone, modern looking, which is what was wanted and only cost £300. I had no idea of the history of this piano and the well known problems of it. Within a few weeks/months a couple of the (plastic) keys had dislodged and it was only then, that I realised that they were attached to the weirdest mechanism I have ever seen on any piano, a plastic device with a thin metal connector, attached to a metal track/rod running the length of the piano. I then find out that they are very difficult to replace and fix and the company, based in Shannon, went bust in the 70's. Not surprising really. It's a shame because for its price the quality of sound is not bad on a par with a zender and would be OK for someone who only had a couple or so hundred to spend and wanted a modern cabinet. I would never ever recommend a Lindner piano to anyone again though and I'm sure there are many here on the board who know more about makes of pianos would say the same.
Due to financial limitations, I have only ever owned a Bentley upright, various second hand pianos whose names I forget and more recently a free Spancer piano. I have always opted for the digital route simply because of the portability, headphone facility and option for midi compatibility.
One piano I also recommended purely because I liked the tone was an Alison piano. It was within the budget of the buyers and so they bought it. At a later date, a Piano dealer associate said that I should keep away from Alison pianos. For what reason he never said but it got the aforementioned pupil through his Grade 8 recently and he still enjoys playing it and has had no problems with it. An element of business rivalry possibly?
I recently saw a white pianola in our local music shop which played nicely, was only £300 and yet didn't have pedals, only a rectangular rod of metal at the base of the piano. I can't remember the name of it but it would be enough to put me off recommending anyone on a budget to buy it.
Dealing with second hand pianos is like dealing with second hand cars and is a very risky business. I have only a basic knowledge of makes of pianos and so I tread very carefully whenever asked to recommend a second hand piano to buy. I have always gone by the condition of the piano, but more importantly, how it feels and sounds to play.
I know there are many websites on piano makes but are there any makes that people here have had personal experiences with and would recommend or advise to steer clear of?
Incidentally, the Spenser piano, which I was given free, is quite nice but it has a low action and the keys do have a slightly weak/spongy feel to them. You never feel totally as one with the instrument but I mustn't grumble as it was free.

Gae

This is a horrible one, isn't it? I chicken out by stating (honestly, as it happens) that I know little about how a piano works. I only know how it sounds and assume that if it sounds ok then it must work ok, but I cannot guarantee that. If they have a specific second hand piano in mind, I give them the phone number of my tuner to ask for advice. I remind them that a couple of hundred pounds buys a festering heap of junk.

I then state, again honestly, that I have only bought new Yamah pianos, like Bostons and love Steinways. Excellent new pianos start at about £6000; there is no such thing as a good new one for less than £2000.

I know this doesn't answer your actual question Gae, but that is because I cannot. This is just how I have learned to evade being dragged in

Steve

Yes and unfortunately, most of my pupils have this type.

This is where the internet fails doesn't it? As much as we are drawn together by the same interests and experiences at the end of the day we are all from different economic backgrounds aren't we? I can only think of a couple of families on my 13 year tour of duty who have ever been able to buy a new piano (both parents were bank managers and were well off) but even their budget only stretched to under £2000.

Gae

I don't have one myself, but I've played at least 20 or so Kemble pianos and liked pretty much all of them! This was when I was searching for a new piano a couple of years ago and of all the makes I tried, Kemble was the only make where I liked all their pianos. New Kemble pianos go from about 2000 pounds, but I've seen fairly good condition second-hand ones for about 1000-1500 pounds, which is fairly reasonable.

That shows how out of touch it is possible to be if you are not involved in buying pianos very often. It is useful to know, Rosie. Thanks.

My first grand was a Kemble.

Steve

I have a Kemble too and have found them to be pretty consistent in touch when playing the same/similar model elsewhere.
Was a bit surprised that the one my teacher has (same as mine) has a heavier touch... taken a bit of getting used to.

My grand had a lethally heavy touch - the reason I moved to my Yamaha. Didn't know then that the touch can be altered

Hey-ho

Wouldn't strictly agree with this as there is a brand new Waldstein in my local piano centre for £1900 and it sounds (to me anyway) absolutely magnificent. It is what I am now saving up for.

I would want some reassurance from my tuner about the reliability, durability and tuning retention of an instrument at this price. Remember, a typical showroom mark-up on a piano is 100%, so you are talking here about a piano sold to that dealer for less than £1000. You are not likely to get much craftmanship for that price.

Why is it so cheap? Are the hammers a decent quality? Will the soundboard last? Is it a decent quality in the first place? Is the mechanism ok? Is the wood hoolding the tuning pegs strong enough to allow the instrument to remain in tune (a lot of cheap pianos have wood so soft that it is already going out of tune as the tuner leaves the room)? Is the piano is so cheap because it is too small to allow me to create a big enough sound when necessary? It is no good asking the salesman. Where necessary piano dealers will lie to their customers.

Those are the questions I would be asking my tuner, who is a technician with a vast experience of all sorts of pianos. I am deeply suspicious of sub £4000 pianos because I have played so much junk at these prices.

Steve

Yes I see your point! I think though that some of the Japanese or Chinese manufactured pianos are so cheap because the labour costs are a lot less there. I have never played a piano valued at more than £6000 so I don't suppose I'm really entitled to say but this Waldstein gave me all the power and sensitivity that I needed for the Rondo Alla Turca and Nocturne in E-flat Major respectively. I thought it was brilliant plus it comes with a 10 year guarantee so it is my next target!

This is an important point to remember when buying a piano: the dealer gets a lot of money when you buy it and is keen to sell; they've also got a huge margin to play with and will almost always give you a discount. So it's possible to look at pianos that are quite a bit above your budget and still get them for a price that's within your budget (or get something like interest free credit thrown in for the original price). Always look up what you can buy the piano you're after for from the internet, even if you don't want to buy it from there, just to get a price to negotiate with; the shops will rarely match that price but they'll make a lot more effort to get somewhere near to it so that you will buy from them. For example, Chamberlain Music sell Yamaha pianos for literally thousands of pounds below the RRP one would see in a shop (not that the shops ever expect one to pay the RRP but the first discount they offer would be nowhere near as much as one can get from the web) and deliver and then come to tune them when they've settled in for £150 so it's worth looking at that if you're going to buy a Yamaha (there will be other shops around that do similar things) if you note that down and take it to the shop they'll do their best to match it and if they can't at least you've got a good discount from them; and if they come nowhere near find another shop or buy on the web (even if you really don't like the web and drive 100 miles to see the actual web shop in bricks and mortar it might be worth it to save a good few thousand pounds!).

There are a lot of good pianos you can get for less than £4000, steve.

My teacher recommended me to John Reid pianos in tottenham, where i bought a new Reid-Sohn (made by samick in another country, name changes to reidsohn in england) for £3000. I have had it for 1.5 years now, and it is superb, metal frame, triple-strung. The only slight problem was a creaky pedal when it was new but that went after 2 or 3 months.


I can see what you mean if someone wants to buy a new piano for less than £2000- its bound to be dodgy.

But i think £3000 is the benchmark for a good piano- The one i bought was one of the most expensive uprights in the shop- and the shop is very well known in a good way.
£4000 can be a bit excessive for an upright. As a matter of fact, i tried out a £4000 piano in the same shop, made by the same company, and its touch was not worth £4000 at all.

This highlights to me that my requirements are different to those of students, and that I should not be projecting onto students my own requirements.

It also shows me how quickly one can loose touch with developments in technology and pricing. The last time I was involved in the hunt for a new piano was seven years ago (and not for myself) when anything costing less than about £4,000 was a heap of junk; decent new pianos started at £6,000.

All of which makes me even more determined to not get involved the next time a parent asks me, "I want a new piano. What should I buy?" Clearly, I haven't got a clue

Steve

I agree with chocolatedog.

For classical alternatives, the Mozart sonata duets are superb.

Steve

It is true that sturdy pianos do seem to be available for a lot cheaper, but don't write yourself off Steve, I'm positive that there is noone better disposed on these forums to advise someone on the touch and feel of a piano, the cost is just a problem your students will have to sort out.

Sometimes it's a question of what you have got used to.

I have a Kemble and love it. Cost me about £4,000 7 years ago. When I first played it, it sounded a lot brighter than the clapped out older one that I had played for 3 years. That was a Rintoul. Now I am so used to the sound and the touch of my Kemble that most other pianos, unless they are really top ones and mega expensive, sound inferior. But I put this down to my lack of experience rather then to anything else.

Remember, due to the Yamaha/Kemble tie up, they are essentially the same piano with 2 different names.

One note of caution I might add - if you are seriously wanting to do more performing - is not necessarily to go for a piano that you find 'easy' to play. My teaching piano is a lovely mellow Steinberg, which doesn't have a lot of power but it has a nice tone, and it is easy to control at softer dynamics and it made my playing sound great! Fine for my students, but not for me as I found I had difficulties then controlling the lower end of the dynamic range on some other brighter pianos. When I got my Boston grand, I had problems initially being able to control a good pp at pp level, which was a challenge, but now because I have to work harder to control it, other bright pianos tend not to be such a problem anymore. And I know if my playing sounds great on the Boston then I have succeeded.

Thats absolutely right Chocolatedog.

Although big pianos that are used in big performance halls are great, they are not so good for practise.

For home use, the best pianos to get for your technique are either ones which have a very hard touch, to work your fingers, or ones which are difficult to produce a deep + low dynamic ie pp.

i'm looking to buy a piano (1'st or second hand) - preferable electric - and of good quality - it would like a proffesional model that can be used with a computer and can record do sampling+ many other things you would expect from a good electronic piano - please does anyone know what piano i should look for - what the price could be and where i could get one ( england only)
many thanks!!

Have you seen the new Yamaha Clavinovas, Jon, they're well cool. Not sure what they're like to play though...

yep - i seen (and played on) a few- but they are a bit out of my price range - on the yamaha site anyway

I'd just like to add that I too have a Spencer piano, and, as an adult learner/amateur I've been happy with it.

Since I was on here last I have bought myself a second-hand Geyer piano!! So happy! It is so much superior to my old piano. However as I have been saving up for this for approx. 3 years, I am now completely skint. But it's worth it!!

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Salaries are not low in Japan!

I've seen this before - what is the point of quoting someone else's post and then not adding any of your own comments? (See 2 previous)

Sorry chocolatedog. Just couldn't resist that

I think what happens sometimes is that people get confused by the quote thingy, then feel embarrassed and give up.

The Japanese manufacturer Yahama don't produce entry-level uprights in Japan anyway. Production has been moved to Indonesia.

My piano has been seriously affected by the recent heat where I live. As well as going further out of tune some of the dampers have also been affected so that a couple of them don't close properly. I can easily solve this I'm sure by taking out the whole mechanism board and re-sitting it as well as just tweaking the offending items. I've done it before and its worked. The problem I have is that I live in a Scandinavian Timber Lodge and the temperature inside reaches about 32 degrees when the Sun has been on it all day. Now I know why I've got a digital piano. I'll wait until the temperature drops and do a tune which should hopefully last me until next summer. It's a good job for me that it was a freebie piano if I do end up having continual problems with the temperature.
Anyone got any advice on how to protect a piano against extreme temperature changes or is it just a question of tuning it twice a year?

Gae

Coming at this from the point of view of how to keep computers cool: you could route an air duct with a fan in it from outside into the case of your piano to keep the inside at a cooler temperature than the rest of the room.

Im trying to persude my parents to buy me a piano and i was wondering which makes should i avoid at all costs?

I think you should start a new thread on this one.

From my own recent experience (via an inherited pupil), steer well clear of Niedmayer pianos.

Steve

Thanks for the advice

There are some brands that seem to me to be gutless.

I don't know that current position, but brands like Wagner (Asian I thought) and Pearl River (China) never impressed. Also for our American listeners - what on earth was Baldwin trying to achieve?

Kawai and Yamaha are brands I generally feel comfortable with.

I also think the English have a proud history of piano making - I have owned a number of Broadwoods and I still think they make a good home upright if you can find one in good condition.

Consider buying a grand if you have the space for it too.

To an extent it's very much a subjective thing - I respect Yamaha as a reputable maker, but I really don't like them.
Brands I've enjoyed - Grotrian-Steinweg (bought one), Bechstein, some Steinways, Kawai
Brands I respect but don't really like the sound of - Yamaha, Bluthner, some other steinways!
Brands I've tried and wouldn't buy (sound wise) Zimmerman, Elysian, Kemble, modern Challens (now made in China)

Bottom line, if you buy a new piano for £2000, it should come with a decent period of warranty. At that price you probably aren't buying an instrument for life, so just check that the warranty period is OK AND what you have to do to keep it valid. Go for something you like the sound of!
Secondhand might get you a good brand much cheaper, but take a tuner along and get their opinion on its state - seem to remember someone mentioning a bright yellow upright a while ago that sounded like it had seem some war damage!

Not my opinion but a useful page nonetheless.

http://www.pianos.co.uk/info/ratings.php3

Talk about a blast from the past. This site talks about those plastic Lindner pianos. I hired one for next to nothing from a piano dealership in Manchester, more than 30 years ago.

Lindner made a great play of the fact that their plastic pianos were ideal for schools as they could be moved easily - wouldn't kill any child they fell on, presumably.

In those days, my wife and I lived in a first floor flat. Eventually, we bought a house. The piano needed transporting from 'upstairs' to upstairs. We attempted to do this with a group of friends. It turned out to be heavier than the manufacturers claimed. This poor piano was dropped downstairs in the block of flats, then dropped a couple of times downstairs on its route upstairs in the new house.

The resulting wreakage was unplayable. The hiring firm was perfectly happy to take it back. Turned out they bought the things for next to nothing and any resulting rental represented a profit. In addition, I bought my first (Yamaha upright) new piano from them, so sueing for damages was far from their mind.

I am fairly sure the firm no longer exists, so does anyone else remember Swanns of Manchester?

Steve

I do

Sorry to bring up this topic from the depths but I was just wondering if anyone had heard of a piano make called something like Louis Denell (no idea how it's spelt sorry) because my friend who is buying a new piano is interested in one of these. Has anyone heard of these or had any good/bad experiences with them?

Boo

i bought my eavestaff for £2700, and its the best iv ever played, and iv played quite a few!! just recommend them to try the ones and if they like one alot, then go for it. i dont mind if its not the best, just if its playable!

boo radley, i cant believe that website only gave reid-sohn like 2 out of 6.

Ive got one of the new uprights for £3100, and its perfectly good for practising. And has a very nice tone.

It's only one man's opinion from the pianos he has played on. He might have played on a duff one.

Does anyone have any exerience with new Waldsteins?

Boo

Work long and hard for your boss then casually drop into the conversation that you've seen a fantastic piano but sadly can't afford it.....

I tried this trick and ended up with a beautiful,beautiful, Bluthner Grand which is the love of my life. Lucky me !

[quote name='Boo Radley' date='Nov 15 2005, 03:44 PM' post='189319']
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It's only one man's opinion from the pianos he has played on. He might have played on a duff one.

Does anyone have any exerience with new Waldsteins?

Boo B)
[/quote]

Oh dear Frederick, that does sound bad. Please do keep us updated on how the visit goes and whether they manage to sort things out. One would definitely assume that at £5000 you would be up and above the dross. I was considering getting a new Waldstein upright as I loved the sound so much but I might think twice about that now.

At last Ladbrookes have contacted the supplier and they have agreed the the bicord strings can be replaced under the guarantee. So at least I can be sure this piano has some resale value. Just have to see how it sounds when repaired!

From someone thats never bought a piano:

I was told on no uncertain terms: never by a baby grand by our piano repair man and my piano teacher.

Apparently the strings aren't long enough to give you a better sound than an upright so it's not worth the extra money you pay!
I was told if you want a better sound you're better going for the 6 and a half foot (or wahtever it is lol)

By all accounts the best place to but a piano is at auctions. People think coz their old pianos are out of tune they are junk, but with some minor repairs and a tune up you might get a really good deal.

Actually, the Schiedmayer baby grand which I bought for £6500 sounds really good and loud. The touch is wonderful; I get pp and ff whenever I want from it.

The brand which many of my friends (and music teachers from the singapore symphony orchestra who come to teach strings at our string orchestra) don't trust is Kawai. It's mostly the uprights only. The dynamics are very hard to bring out, and the keys are very easy to depress, which almost always gives a mf- ff sound. My piano teacher was nearly cursing when he found out he got a Kawai upright for his FTCL performance exam.

Has anyone heard of an Offenbach piano?