Do you think that the standard of DipABRSM is higher than ATCL?

Definitely.

No.

Cheers

Katyjay

I think the standard of performance necessary to pass either of the ATCL diplomæ or the DipABRSM is about the same. Which one would be found more difficult is a matter of personal taste, as they are all different: the DipABRSM has a viva and quick study; ATCL performance has scales, aurals etc.; ATCL recital has a 50% pass mark. The two boards have different ideas about how the like to structure their diplomæ: I get the impression that Trinity are a little more performance biased whereas the AB are a little more 'academic', especially at FRSM level with the 4500 word written submission.

If I was cornered, threatened with a rabid dog and had to choose which one was harder overall I'd go for the DipABRSM, but then again I am biased

I have accompanied (but never taken myself) DipABRSM exams, and taken (and passed) the ATCL piano recital exam. My feeling is that because 90% of the marks for the ATCL are for the performance, you probably have to be able to present yourself as a more experienced performer for that exam than for the DipABRSM, but the DipABRSM may be more nerve-racking for young candidates because of the depth of experience you really need to do well in the viva. Differences in pass marks between the types of diploma are irrelevant because of the level of subjectivity in assessing musical performance.

I seem to feel that DipABRSM is more difficult, compared to ATCL, because there is viva voce and quick study (which is sight reading) in the DipABRSM exam, while you only need to play your pieces if you are taking the ATCL (recital) exam. Of course, there is written submission for both exams. What's easier about ATCL is that you do not even need any pre-requisite to sign up for the exam.

I'm taking my grade 8 violin exam next month. I'm thinking that if i fail it, then i will do the ATCL exam next year, if i pass it, then i'll do the DipABRSM next year(since it requires a grade 8 as a pre-requisite).

Don't even THINK about a diploma until your playing is up to the equivalent of a high distinction at grade 8. I reckon that the amount of times (taken in terms of hours) it takes to reach grade 8, from being a beginner, is about the same as the effort needed to reach a diploma once you have passed grade 8.

Look at it logically: the diploma is the standard of a first year university performance exam. You wouldn't even get on to most university performance courses with less than the equivalent of a high distincition at grade 8, and you're thinking of the standard of a first year student at such a university who has been studying nothing but music all year with much of that time being spent on performance.

Liz

If you read Trinity's syllabus carefully you'll note that while they require no specific prerequisites (so that attempting the diploma is not only restricted to those from a traditional music learning background), they emphasise that a high level of practical experience is needed before making an attempt at ATCL. So it's no "easier" - you just don't happen to need one specific piece of paper.

Also, Trinity's repertoire, at grade as well as diploma levels, is much more challenging. Certainly for singing, a considerable part of the LRSM or even FRSM syllabus is within the Trinity grade 6, 7 or 8 syllabuses.

Cheers

Katyjay

I agree; they'll still just fail you if you don't meet the required standard....


Whilst I'm no singer, I don't think one can claim - across the board - that just because a certain piece is on someone's L diploma but on another board's F diploma that the board offering the piece for F level has lower standards. I've noticed pieces on ATCL and LRSM; similarly, I've noticed pieces on DipABRSM and LTCL. If I recall, hgirl said she could - in theory - play the same pieces for DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM if she wanted to. The syllabus presented is merely a suggestion of the sorts of pieces that would allow one to demonstrate the necessarily technical and artistic skills for that level; the diploma for which a given piece is chosen is decided, subjectively, by the exam board.

yes, I was caught out by the DipABRSM because I had no previous singing grades. I had however been singing to near LRSM standard for uni for two years (switched inst at end of first year). Because I had not sung in a recital with voice for three years, I did not qualify for 'alternative qualification', despite being above the Dip Standard. Frustrating to say the least, so I could not decide on my own between Dip ABRSM and ATCL, I had to do the latter. I would however probably go on and do an LRSM if I had the teacher/money.

If it were one isolated work, I'd agree with you YAP. But the mismatch is pretty consistent within my instrument's repertoire. OK, that may not apply to other instruments, although comments from other conversations suggest that it's so.

The point I'm making is that if I were to select a programme from the DipABRSM repertoire and "just show up and play it" at an ATCL exam I'd fail on at least two counts. There's an awful lot more to ATCL than "just show up and play". It isn't an easy option diploma.

Katyjay

I know; as I said in my first post "I get the impression that Trinity are a little more performance biased whereas the AB are a little more 'academic'". I've never taken an ATCL myself, but I can see that it would make sense if Trinity had different expectations of ATCL recital candidates' performances than was expected from DipABRSM candidates' performances.

I think it's just the two boards have a different take on things. The AB like quick studies and vivas: I think the reason the LTCL is a prerequisite for an LRSM rather than an FRSM is not because it's automatically easier, but because the AB want people to have survived a viva and quick study at L level before taking an FRSM.

Ultimately, though, I don't think it matters which is harder: they're both respectable post-grade-8 qualifications, and anyone with either has demonstrated that they are worthy - musically - of a professional level qualification.

And, of course, exams aren't everything

Another point re ATCL (with reference to piano recital, but I am sure the same goes for other instruments/voice) - apparently most people taking the exams choose their own programmes and agree them with TCL in advance rather than selecting from the syllabus. I did the latter, first because I only decided to enter after the deadline for submitting an own choice programme had passed, but more importantly, because I didn't want the stress of having to somehow justify my choice of pieces in the performance itself - at least if you choose from the syllabus this can't in any way be an issue.

Yea, thanks for your advice. I guess i've always been overly ambitious when it comes to learning musical instruments. I managed to scrap through grade 7 after learning the violin for 2.5 years, and this year, i'm trying to scrap through grade 8 after learning the violin for 3.5 years. Of course, this is crazy, but i'm just impatient.

[required standard....




I am not a vocalist but I'd like to say even though some pieces of the LRSM. FRSM do appear in the junior grades, the assessment criteria will be a bit different. I guess the examiner won't demand a grade 6/7/8 candidate to sing like a student of a diploma level. Their marking will be less strict.

The ABRSM repertoire also have considerable parts of the LRSM and FRSM syllabus for the grade 6,7 and 8.

if this is indeed true then I'd find it slightly ironic as I have also found Trinity grade 1-8 more academic than ABRSM. Trinity has Viva Voce in all grades whereas ABRSM do not. Also on the horn pieces lists, Trinity seem to go for quality rather than ABRSM who go for long movments of sonatas/concertos. The trinity syllabuses also seem to be wider in choice and go into the depths of weird and wonderful pieces (I once had to silently press down all the black notes from below middle C downwards in grade 4 piano!).

Just my opinion though, and I don't know the ATCL and DipABRSM spec very well.

I've come across a piece like that in an old ABRSM exam book...