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SteveHopwood
QUOTE(Tess @ Sep 11 2005, 05:48 PM)
Yes, I totally agree - it takes MASSIVE self-confidence. You need to do a difficult job not only very well indeed but also without any self-consciousness / with (natural) ease. smile.gif

biggrin.gif I have a sneaky feeling that ALL three of you, John, VN's teacher and Steve are at least very experienced and very middle-aged. laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif I know Steve is...

Tess smile.gif
*


Yes, but still resolutely refuse to grow up.

"What shall I be when I grow up?" I sometimes ask my pupils.

"Anything but a piano teacher" they chorus.

Not nice to me sometimes, my pupils.

Steve biggrin.gif
Tess
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Sep 11 2005, 05:53 PM)
QUOTE(Tess @ Sep 11 2005, 05:48 PM)
Yes, I totally agree - it takes MASSIVE self-confidence. You need to do a difficult job not only very well indeed but also without any self-consciousness / with (natural) ease. smile.gif

biggrin.gif I have a sneaky feeling that ALL three of you, John, VN's teacher and Steve are at least very experienced and very middle-aged. laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif I know Steve is...

Tess smile.gif
*


Yes, but still resolutely refuse to grow up.

"What shall I be when I grow up?" I sometimes ask my pupils.

"Anything but a piano teacher" they chorus.

Not nice to me sometimes, my pupils.

Steve biggrin.gif
*



Aaw, that was only childlike honesty. They can't BEAR to compete with you! laugh.gif
Violinia
I'm sure it would be advantageous for most children up to about 12, if the teacher is confident enough to be able to handle it with ease. I can very confident but not in all situations! Interacting with a child in front of their parent isn't one of my favourite activities! Perhaps I should attempt to get over this, for the sake of the child's learning..... but I probably won't get round to it in the near future.

However, for a teenager to have their parent there... hmmm. Surely by this age the child should be able to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own learning? And if not, why not?

One particular child I teach (she's now 16 so no longer a child) would have gained nothing whatsoever by having her mum in the room, god forbid! Lovely mum, but the child was so self-motivated and well-organised from the start she would never have had any need for additional support. Some children are just like this.

Having said all that I do develop very strong relationships with all the parents, and often have a little chat with them at the end of the lesson about what I've set the child to practise. If it's a technical thing I sometimes get the parent to learn it themselves so they can help the child during the week. I also stress when the child is young (6-9ish) that the parent supervise the practice by being there in the room making sure they practise everything in the practice notes, and do it properly. Small children, if left to their own devices, often think practice just means rushing through the pieces for a few minutes!

So good, working relationships with the parents are very important in my view. I know in a very full studio there isn't always time for this, and, yes, the last child in the day gets a better deal with all this stuff.

Violinia
Violinia
post deleted, duplicated in error rolleyes.gif
Tess
QUOTE(Violinia @ Sep 11 2005, 07:26 PM)
I'm sure it would be advantageous for most children up to about 12, if the teacher is confident enough to be able to handle it with ease.  I can very confident but not in all situations!  Interacting with a child in front of their parent isn't one of my favourite activities!  Perhaps I should attempt to get over this, for the sake of the child's learning..... but I probably won't get round to it in the near future.

However, for a teenager to have their parent there... hmmm.  Surely by this age the child should be able to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own learning?  And if not, why not?

One particular child I teach (she's now 16 so no longer a child) would have gained nothing whatsoever by having her mum in the room, god forbid!  Lovely mum, but the child was so self-motivated and well-organised from the start she would never have had any need for additional support.  Some children are just like this.

Having said all that I do develop very strong relationships with all the parents, and often have a little chat with them at the end of the lesson about what I've set the child to practise.  If it's a technical thing I sometimes get the parent to learn it themselves so they can help the child during the week.  I also stress when the child is young (6-9ish) that the parent supervise the practice by being there in the room making sure they practise everything in the practice notes, and do it properly.  Small children, if left to their own devices, often think practice just means rushing through the pieces for a few minutes!

So good, working relationships with the parents are very important in my view.  I know in a very full studio there isn't always time for this, and, yes, the last child in the day gets a better deal with all this stuff.

Violinia
*



Hmmm, wise words. My problem is - VN is independent and self-motivated but the teacher just happens to think that maybe given some parental supervision, she might do better? He suggested it to her directly. She nodded her head whilst there but at home, she steadfastly refused (stubborn nut!). This is the first and the ONLY time she has not taken on board his advice.

He's a very nice and good-natured man and does not insist on anything - other than technical perfection tongue.gif . I noticed last week that she is allowed her own phrasing and fingering, too.

So we don't get to supervise her. *sigh* Hence her shaky sight-reading resulting from watching "Blue Peter" volumeless (a TV prog) and simultaneously playing from memory. Rascal. Hubby told me! But presently, she looks like she's doing fine so we lay back and kind of let things be... Provided VN does not fall in love, she may not need any parental supervision given her independent spirit.

However, come 13, I will certainly NOT sit in. My hubby may still want to - he's the one who on the advice of the teacher, takes notes! biggrin.gif - but I pray that he won't. It just does NOT feel right! wink.gif The kid will expect us to answer her questions for her - she's already pretty reserved outside the home and generally quite lazy to talk with non-family members! ohmy.gif

I always say to myself and hubby - Don't mess about with teenagers! Beware of hormones. biggrin.gif

Ooops! Sorry, TOO much rambling... ohmy.gif
jazzywench
Latest pupil is 7 and undoing bad practicing technique from group lessons. She is very quiet (which I can find unnerving as I worry she might hate me! rolleyes.gif ) Like Maggiemay, I have 2-3 consultation lessons. If mum/dad wants to sit in on these then that's fine because a new house/piano/scary jabbering lady can be very intimidating to anyone. But after the permanant time is set, I don't encourage it. If I don't cut the strings then, it could go on far too long.

Simply because in this case Dad is a music teacher himself and knows to sit quietly at the back of the room and not interfere but mum knows only a smattering of music and sits behind me and talks away, and disclosing all daughter's 'bad habits' musically which I worried would really embarrass her (she hid behind her giant notebook during this!). Can't have that long-term or I'd go nuts, plus music lessons are a great way of achieving independence from parents and developing your own creativity! I would have died a death of my mum had sat in on my lessons becasue I'd be too terrified to make a mistake and end up a nervous wreck....

Despite this, I love chatting to parents on the doorstep or on the phone to ensure they are always in the know and feel part of the process. It also builds up my good reputation as being open and genuninely interested in their child's development!

I see the pros and cons. However personally I don't advocate it once the child is used to the situation.

Ps, just in response to Tess, in our family clarinet practicing was practically non-existent and we all had the same clarinet teacher. He commented that we were all really good sight-readers because we had to sight-read everything in lessons cos we were too lazy to practice!! tongue.gif
Violinia
Some interesting research would be along the lines of: is the child whose parent sat in on lessons more or less likely to carry on playing into adulthood and beyond?

Subdividing the category into parent sitting in during early days/all the way through....

Suzuki parents sit in on lessons, and only a very small percentage become professional musicians in adulthood.

I think there's more chance of the child becoming really good at their instrument if the parent sits in, but in the case of Suzuki, this doesn't seem to correlate with continuing with the instrument.

The research needs to be done, as it would come up with interesting results for sure.

Violinia
Tess
QUOTE(Violinia @ Sep 11 2005, 10:28 PM)
Some interesting research would be along the lines of: is the child whose parent sat in on lessons more or less likely to carry on playing into adulthood and beyond?

Subdividing the category into parent sitting in during early days/all the way through....

Suzuki parents sit in on lessons, and only a very small percentage become professional musicians in adulthood.

I think there's more chance of the child becoming really good at their instrument if the parent sits in, but in the case of Suzuki, this doesn't seem to correlate with continuing with the instrument.

The research needs to be done, as it would come up with interesting results for sure.

Violinia
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There is some info on that subject in the book - The Right Instrument For Your Child. Apparently, the writers (one a prodigy and the other/spouse, a music producer/writer) felt very strongly after their research, that the reason for such failure (if it can be seen as such) is because programs like this begins far too young and they assert that it is generally detrimental to begin too young! Very interesting book!
Violinia
QUOTE
programs like this begins far too young and they assert that it is generally detrimental to begin too young!


Oh - interesting....! Though I have noticed that a lot of virtuosos did start incredibly young, but perhaps more also give up if they started so young? Perhaps they work out later on that it wasn't their idea to start in the first place, therefore they feel pushed, therefore they react against it in the end???

Violinia
AnotherPianist
QUOTE(Violinia @ Sep 12 2005, 03:38 PM)
QUOTE
programs like this begins far too young and they assert that it is generally detrimental to begin too young!


Oh - interesting....! Though I have noticed that a lot of virtuosos did start incredibly young, but perhaps more also give up if they started so young? Perhaps they work out later on that it wasn't their idea to start in the first place, therefore they feel pushed, therefore they react against it in the end???

Violinia
*


And perhaps the people that do give up having started young would have never started themselves later anyway so wouldn't have lost anything....
Tess
QUOTE(Violinia @ Sep 12 2005, 02:38 PM)
QUOTE
programs like this begins far too young and they assert that it is generally detrimental to begin too young!


Oh - interesting....! Though I have noticed that a lot of virtuosos did start incredibly young, but perhaps more also give up if they started so young? Perhaps they work out later on that it wasn't their idea to start in the first place, therefore they feel pushed, therefore they react against it in the end???

Violinia
*



No, it wasn't just adverse reaction as in the case of some Russian and Korean kids. I read how Menuhin was very impressed but his second wife was absolutely horrified she said by the Russian regime of training violinists (which was reinforced by parental coercion).

It was much worse. It was that such kids/grown-ups eventually lost all confidence and thought mistakenly that they were NOT musical, etc, and tragically avoiding music due to this general lack of confidence. I guess it leads to some knock-on effect on one's self esteem, too! I have personally seen over-enthusiastic parents force music down the throats of young kids who initially like it, though. Sometimes, it may well be the kid's idea to start in the first place. It's sad. sad.gif

Don't forget! For every virtuosi who started young and succeeded, there are probably 1,000 who failed! These will suffer the psychological scars of self esteem and coercion. I just got back from school where just before the bell rang for closure, one parent whose 2 kids take the violin, came up to me and said - You know, the kids at school think they can be VN (who plays solos regularly at assemblies) without practising, and when they found out it didn't come as naturally, they want to give up, alleging that they are not musical! She thought maybe they are too young and immature to understand the equation. I don't remember it now but I think the book suggests that statistically, the success rate of music take-up differs very significantly in the positive direction after 7. Coincidentally, VN started the month before her 8th birthday. This is just a coincidence, of course. Mind you, I accept there ARE exceptions to the general statistical pattern!

Dare I say - Too much parental involvement is JUST as bad as too little! biggrin.gif

Tess smile.gif
SteveHopwood
QUOTE(Violinia @ Sep 11 2005, 07:26 PM)
I'm sure it would be advantageous for most children up to about 12, if the teacher is confident enough to be able to handle it with ease.  I can very confident but not in all situations!  Interacting with a child in front of their parent isn't one of my favourite activities!  Perhaps I should attempt to get over this, for the sake of the child's learning.....

Not unless you feel comfortable doing it. Just because John and I are does not mean everyone else should. There are huge advantages for teachers who can but any teacher unhappy doing so would lose effectiveness.

QUOTE
However, for a teenager to have their parent there... hmmm.  Surely by this age the child should be able to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own learning?  And if not, why not?
*


Some do, some do not. Teenagers whose parents have sat in on lessons since they were small often enjoy the continues presence of their parents. Others do not and get rid of them. It is all a matter of what suites the individual; there are no hard and fast rules.

Steve biggrin.gif
Tess
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Sep 12 2005, 10:32 PM)
It is all a matter of what suites the individual; there are no hard and fast rules.

Steve biggrin.gif
*



Good point.
noodle
QUOTE(SteveHopwood @ Sep 12 2005, 11:32 PM)
Some do, some do not. Teenagers whose parents have sat in on lessons since they were small often enjoy the continues presence of their parents. Others do not and get rid of them. It is all a matter of what suites the individual; there are no hard and fast rules.

Steve biggrin.gif
*




I have been thinking about this thread a lot lately. It is not my practice to encourage parents to sit in for lessons. I really can't see the difference between child having a private lesson in school or a private lesson in the teacher's home. Why should a child be able to attend an individual lesson in school without a parent sitting in and not one at home? I thought I'd try a little experiment. I was teaching a 5 year old boy in a music centre yesterday. He had never had music lesons before, so I asked him if he would like his mum to stay for his first lesson. 'NO WAY!' he shouted, 'I'm not a sissy' nearly closing the door in her face!



SteveHopwood
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 13 2005, 03:31 PM)
I thought I'd try a little experiment.  I was teaching a 5 year old boy in a music centre yesterday.  He had never had music lesons before, so I asked him if he would like his mum to stay for his first lesson.  'NO WAY!' he shouted, 'I'm not a sissy' nearly closing the door in her face!
*


Well, that told you laugh.gif

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Tess
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 13 2005, 03:31 PM)
I was teaching a 5 year old boy in a music centre yesterday.  He had never had music lesons before, so I asked him if he would like his mum to stay for his first lesson.  'NO WAY!' he shouted, 'I'm not a sissy' nearly closing the door in her face!
*



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
sarah-flute
user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image
JohnS
Why do boys that age (I've got one) often speak their mind? Will you ask him the same question next time - he he he!

biggrin.gif
Tess
Noodle, I think you did well to take into consideration his feelings. Guess what? I was at RCM last summer when I met a parent of an almost 11 yr old kid who moaned that she had to be there all day from 8.30 till 4.00! I said - How dreadful! You must be dead tired each time. I forgot the kid! biggrin.gif Anyway, her reply was - Her piano teacher who starts with her at 8.30 insists on my presence to take notes! sad.gif ohmy.gif

Well, if my kid doesn't want me there but she does, do you know what I'll do? Yeah, you've guessed right! I'll sack her. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

violin-ann
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Well that tells you he knows what he wants, and that's good because he takes responsibility for his own well-being. biggrin.gif
noodle
He seems independent and articulate. I just hope he isn't always going to be that assertive!
SteveHopwood
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 13 2005, 11:05 PM)
He seems independent and articulate.  I just hope he isn't always going to be that assertive!
*


Hmmmmm. You might need to indulge in a little gentle squashing from time to time.

Good luck. laugh.gif

Steve biggrin.gif
Tess
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 13 2005, 11:05 PM)
He seems independent and articulate.  I just hope he isn't always going to be that assertive!
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Hi noodle,
I wish my parents taught me to be assertive when I was younger. I was not shy at all (except with cameras and videos!) but I was so compliant that it did me some serious harm. It is a good thing to be assertive. But, do you mean he is aggressive? Well, if he is, then, I am confident you can handle it... especially in his parents' absence. He has more respect for you than for his mum, for sure.

Tess smile.gif
noodle
QUOTE
do you mean he is aggressive? Well, if he is, then, I am confident you can handle it...



No. He's not aggressive. I know I can handle the most difficult children and the most irritating parents!
SteveHopwood
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 15 2005, 08:41 PM)
I know I can handle the most difficult children and the most irritating parents!
*


A vital skill.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
noodle
Absolutely. A mother brought her 6 year old son for his first piano lesson ever with me yesterday. 'So', she said. 'When does he do grade 1?' I thought of this thread and parents sitting in for lessons. If there are many like her I'm not sure I want them even bringing their children to lessons!
Tess
QUOTE(noodle @ Sep 17 2005, 07:37 PM)
Absolutely.  A mother brought her 6 year old son for his first piano lesson ever with me yesterday.  'So', she said. 'When does he do grade 1?'  I thought of this thread and parents sitting in for lessons.  If there are many like her I'm not sure I want them even bringing their children to lessons!
*



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

UNBELIEVABLE! How ridiculous! If I were you, I know what I would have said. Innocently, "10 years? If he's lucky?"

Tess
noodle
So you think November might be a bit soon then?????
chocolatedog
Noooooooo! The earlier the better, I say!! (Yeah, right! wink.gif )
jazzywench
oh heavens, time to ressurrect SWAT, CNTU and...

Teacher's War Against Torturous Students

I'll leave you all to think of an appropriate abbreviation, I'm just here till the painkillers kick in... wink.gif
maggiemay
QUOTE
'When does he do grade 1?' 


Fortunately I'm experienced enough to know you're joking !!

might be the reply you need.
wink.gif
musicmanNZ
I wonder if that is beacause so much else has been dumbed down and made easy. It seems to me that music is one of the few remaining things where there are no tricks, no short cuts, no easy options. Learning, practise, more learning, lots more practise ..... is really the only way to progress.
I do hope they don't start making music exams 'easier' to pass even though they entail hard work I think a lot of people realise that when you say you are grade xx that shows a pretty good work ethic.
Maybe this mother simply didn't know what grade 1 represented. You could have played her the type of piece, demonstrated a few scales and then she might have seen it wasn't a quick little test rolleyes.gif

PS I'm the boy whose Mum started this thread .. the fame .. the glory laugh.gif
and yes I do like her sitting in on my lessons and she never ever speaks or interfers and I find the notes she jots down very helpful, and I am very happy and confident, and have an awesome relationship with my piano teacher who is also very happy and confident teaching with parents in the room and I don't believe having her there indicates that I don't take responsibility for my own learning. I use her as a tool to help my learning cool.gif SO WE"LL ROCK ON AS WE ARE biggrin.gif
Tess
QUOTE(musicmanNZ @ Sep 17 2005, 11:05 PM)

yes I do like her sitting in on my lessons and she never ever speaks or interfers and I find the notes she jots down very helpful, and I am very happy and confident, and have an awesome relationship with my piano teacher who is also very happy and confident teaching with parents in the room  and I don't believe having her there indicates that I don't take responsibility for my own learning.  I use her as a tool to help my learning  cool.gif SO WE"LL ROCK ON AS WE ARE  biggrin.gif
*



*laughs* You sound just like my daughter! smile.gif She proffered in a tone full of surprise - How am I suppose to remember everything if you are not listening for me as well?! Me? I defended in typical lawyerly fashion - Who says you are supposed to remember "EVERYTHING", eh?! laugh.gif Got her! She replied - I don't want to argue with you, mum. You always win because you are so good with words. It's not fair! sad.gif
elliewelly
If it works with the teacher, student and parent then it's fine!

LOL at jazzywench - Teachers' War Against Torturous Students. Great acronym! laugh.gif
noodle
QUOTE(jazzywench @ Sep 17 2005, 11:57 PM)
oh heavens, time to ressurrect SWAT, CNTU and...

Teacher's War Against Torturous Students

I'll leave you all to think of an appropriate abbreviation, I'm just here till the painkillers kick in... wink.gif
*




What about TWAP? Teacher's War Against Parents.
elliewelly
Then there are parents who are Pushing for Inappropriate Grades (PIGs) and Fans of Unattainable Music Exams (FUME) and Those Wanting Exam Results Promptly (TWERPs). OK so maybe I should go and do something more constructive now...
chocolatedog
QUOTE(jazzywench @ Sep 17 2005, 10:57 PM)
oh heavens, time to ressurrect SWAT, CNTU and...

Teacher's War Against Torturous Students

I'll leave you all to think of an appropriate abbreviation, I'm just here till the painkillers kick in... wink.gif
*



Must be a sign of old age - I seem to be losing my memory! What was SWAT and CNTU again? unsure.gif
noodle
I think it was something to do with students cancelling lessons or not turning up.

I like the idea of PIGs!
jazzywench
PIGs is fabulous!

SWAT is Steve's society (Superteachers' War Against T***s), CNTU is mine -Clients Never Turning Up.... rolleyes.gif
chocolatedog
Thanks - I'd forgotten those, but my sister who is a schoolteacher sent me a few interesting pupil cases she'd come across - Gifted Insolent Troublemakers, those having Poor Recall Amnesiac Tendency, and those suffering from Severe Observational Deficiency. On occasion she's also met the odd one or two suffering from Belligerent Attention Seeking Tyrant Disorder who make life miserable for teachers and fellow-pupils alike. laugh.gif (Don't blame me for these - she sent them to me!!)
musicmanNZ
Surely you must have some
SUPREME
S upportive, U nobtrusive, P arents, R ecognising
E xcellent M usical E ducation
laugh.gif
jazzywench
QUOTE(musicmanNZ @ Sep 18 2005, 09:30 PM)
Surely you must have some
SUPREME
S upportive, U nobtrusive, P arents, R ecognising
E xcellent M usical E ducation
laugh.gif
*



Oh of course, but they're a dying breed! laugh.gif
noodle
Yes, there are so few of them its hardly worth having an acronym for them!
ringaringa
I must be massively self confident then Steve, because I don't just let parents sit in lessons - I actually have it as a requirement (at least under a certain age). I am a lot happier since I decided this.

I view parent and child as my customers.

Parents IME sit quietly and read the newspaper and magazines I provide, they may ask a question at the end. One mum, whose daughter has issues with rhythm gets up and looks at the music if I have had to do a lot of counting with her, so she can help her at home. Another boy will not concentrate without his father or Grandad present, but acheives wonderful things with him sat on the sofa.

Unlike school, my pupils only see me once a week, so they do benefit from having someone else there who may remember what I said.

I am actually surprised that so many of you are against it.

chocolatedog
I haven't physically got the space to have another adult sitting in my teaching room - it's already a bit crowded with a grand and upright piano, desk, filing cabinet, bookcase for all music and books and a full-length keyboard propped up in its flight-case in the corner!
Violinia
message deleted - sorry!
Jenny1
Today I taught my very first lesson and had a parent watch me the whole time. I did feel quite unsettled to begin with but after a few minutes, I forgot she was there. The parent was very interested and keen and remembered the lesson and was encouraged to help her daughter at home. This is beneficial but as a teacher, I would rather if the parents did not sit in every lesson as I couldn't be "myself"!
Jenny

QUOTE(musicmanNZ @ Aug 23 2005, 09:15 PM)
I am going to use this chance of communicating with such a merry bunch of music teachers to ask whether you like parents sitting in on your lessons or not?

I don't mean crouched a foot away from the piano, video camera in hand but sitting unobtrusively in the background and not speaking in the lesson.

I sit in every one of my son's piano lessons and often make notes etc as to points raised by his teacher.  He finds these really useful for practise work as, with an hour lesson, he can recall every fine detail so he can re-check at home line 3, bar 5+6 bring out melody' or whatever.

In fact I can't really imagine not doing it and his teacher certainly doesn't  mind ..

What do the rest of you like your parents to do?
*


musicmanNZ
Chocolatedog
This is right off topic but you mentioned "a full length keyboard in a flight case' Can you please tell me which brand of flight case you have and how you like it. I am trying to get one for my 88 key stage piano but here in NZ there are very rare. Thanks in advance
acstuart
QUOTE(musicmanNZ @ Aug 23 2005, 09:15 PM)
I am going to use this chance of communicating with such a merry bunch of music teachers to ask whether you like parents sitting in on your lessons or not?

I don't mean crouched a foot away from the piano, video camera in hand but sitting unobtrusively in the background and not speaking in the lesson.

I sit in every one of my son's piano lessons and often make notes etc as to points raised by his teacher.  He finds these really useful for practise work as, with an hour lesson, he can recall every fine detail so he can re-check at home line 3, bar 5+6 bring out melody' or whatever.

In fact I can't really imagine not doing it and his teacher certainly doesn't  mind ..

What do the rest of you like your parents to do?
*


SteveHopwood
QUOTE(Jenny1 @ Sep 19 2005, 07:11 PM)
Today I taught my very first lesson and had a parent watch me the whole time. I did feel quite unsettled to begin with but after a few minutes, I  forgot she was there. The parent was very interested and keen and remembered the lesson and was encouraged to help her daughter at home. This is beneficial but as a teacher, I would rather if the parents did not sit in every lesson as I couldn't be "myself"!
Jenny
*


Some support here, Jenny, from someone who does this all the time.

From experience, it does not take long to get used to the presence of the parents.

I am 'myself' all the time.

It does work, I promise. I will not try to hide that it does take massive self-confidence. I have this, as a teacher at least.

Steve biggrin.gif
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