My daughter's music teachers both think my daughter should have a go at a scholarship for senior school She is 10 and this would be for next September (2006). We have three schools in mind. We are determined not to push her and hope three auditions won't be too much, but financially it would be very helpful so we need a few options.

She has been playing cello for less than 3 years and is working towards grade 5 having achieved distinctions in all exams. She's also been playing the piano for one year, is working towards grade 3 and got a distinction in her grade 1 (skipped grade 2). We have preauditions in October/November. She plays with a lot of expression so I'm not too worried about the instruments, but I am concerned about the interview as she's very shy with strangers. I've also been told that schools look for a higher than average academic standard which also might be a problem as she's average in everything else.

Can anyone give me advice on this or any tips, or indicate if we stand a good chance?

My son was lucky enough to obtain a full music scholarship to his senior school - he was actually in the running for an academic scholarship as well, but the music one was worth more, so he was awarded that one.

At the time of his audition (at age 11), he had passed Grade 7 recorders (distinction), Grade 6 violin (distinction) and piano (merit), as well as having theory Grade 7, and he had just begun to play the viola.

Speaking absolutely honestly, the standard is tremendously high. A couple of years later, my daughter tried for the music scholarship to the same school. She wasn't quite as advanced as my son at that age, but almost, and again, a good all-rounder, but she didn't get the place. All was not lost, because she did get an academic scholarship and went on to take a very active role in the musical life of the school.

From speaking to the Head of Music there - this is going back a fair few years, but I would imagine that the competition is, if anything, even more intense now - they get a lot of people trying who are at the mid-grades - about Grade 5, with maybe a second instrument at Grade 2 or 3, but there are always a few others who are well ahead of that level - excellent and musical players - and of course if the powers-that-be are faced with a toss-up between an excellent Grade 5 player and an excellent Grade 7 player, and have only one place to offer, they are going to go with the more advanced candidate.

I don't mean to dash your hopes, and of course 'nothing ventured, nothing gained', but it will by no means be a walk-over for your daughter, even though she is reasonably advanced for her age. I'd strongly advise that you try and raise her academic level, which would give her a better chance - again, if there are two equally promising candidates for the one place, they are very likely to look at academic achievement. There are books you can buy with practice papers for the sort of academic tests she might be faced with - I think I got a series of books from Smiths which were very good (Bond? - I can't remember).

I hope this helps!

it is my experiance that independent schools (if they are what you are applying for) have a music test seperately it is also my expereriance that the applicant has to sit an entrance exam as well as interview if this is the case make sure you practice verbal and non verbal reasoning alot most children who go to comprehensive schools dont learn it so private schools use to their advantadge and teach it thus making sure everyone from their own school gets in and people who arnt dont stand a chance i myself was accepted but later denied because giving me a place would have sacrificed the place of another student who alredy went to the school (lets face it would you say youl have to go and find somwhere else to go to somebody who had been paying thousands of pounds for six years in favour of some kid from nowhere who probably has several back up schools anyway) to sum up private schools very few places wont turn you down if you arnt to a standard of exellence exceeding the majority of their own students spend years traing them for the exam so they will pass offer about 5 scholarships at the most and do not issue exam results afterwards ( a bit suspicous) however you said something about interviews so it may go differently best of luck i hope your daughter succeeds just be ready for the worst and have some back up comprehensives and practice verbal and non verbal reasoning even if theres no exam they will still do it alot in lessons

The pre-auditions should give you a good indication of her scholarship prospects and how the schools view your daughter's potential. If they are held informally they shouldn't be too stressful for you all. In addition to actual results I think schools also look for genuine enthusiasm and commitment to playing - so if your daughter has been involved with music groups, choirs etc, or has attended holiday courses, I think that may help also.
Good luck - if the schools are doing their jobs properly they should make the pre-audtions as informal and helpful as possible.

I'm sure schools vary a lot in terms of standards required. Scholarships at some schools are easier than others. Some may have more awards or have a more rural (ie smaller) catchment. The standard required will also vary from year to year at the same school based on statistical fluctuations in applicants abilities. I know of people who have received music scholarships in recent years at local (semi-rural) schools who have been at a similar musical level to your daughter (some have been higher to be fair, but some have been lower too). One of these schools now states that it requires an academic level near to academic scholarship level before they award a music scholarship, but another doesn't. I suggest you check with the individual schools you are considering what their policies are, and eliminate any that have an unrealistic academic requirement (unless you are applying for a non-scholarship place anyway). I would recommend giving it a go (it's all good performance experience in any case), especially as the teachers are recommending it - but you may want to treat it as a bit of a long shot so as to keep the pressure low and avoid too much disappointment if she's unlucky. For the interview I should think they are looking for evidence of enthusiasm and commitment to music rather than the ability to speak with confidence. Good luck.

I'd agree with the advice that's been given so far that you should treat it as a bonus if she gets it rather than letting her feel to pressurised about the idea (not that I'm suggesting that you are). This is in no way a reflection of whether or not I think that she's capable of getting a scholarship, I really don't know. As people have said though remember that the standards will vary dramatically between schools so don't worry too much about fixing a 'required standard' in your mind.

The main point I wanted to make though is that exams aren't everything: there may be people there that are doing grade 8, they may have distinctions even but they may also be achieving this by lots of technical practise and heavy reliance on their teacher's points for exactly how to interpret the pieces (call me cynical but I would suspect less artistry is expected for the award of a grade 8 distinction at age 10 than at 18, after all the examiners are only human). The schools, if they're anything like music colleges, will probably be looking for potential and artistic flair rather than technical wizadry (after all, the latter can be taught over time far more easily) so a very musical performance of a grade 5 piece from someone with experience of music outside of exams does, infact, have every chance of winning over a technically demanding but dry grade 8 level performance. Of course there may well be a very artistic and technically demanding performance there too, but you'll never know if you don't try. I think that the worst thing you could do though is feel pressured to push up the technical difficulty at the expense of expressiveness in playing as this is not generally what's looked for.

I think the general message here, although I have got a slightly negative feeling from reading the posts, is go for it and give it your (her) best shot but prepare her for the possibilty that she may not make it; make it more of a 'this is very hard and it's a bonus if you get it' type affair.

Having said all that, I'm not a teacher, nor have I ever applied for a music scholarship. Good luck to her .

Schools round here claim they are looking for potential rather than actual grades - nevertheless they do require grades too. One of my pupils got a part-scholarship on grade 3 piano plus a higher grade (4 or 5 I'm not sure) on clarinet a year or so back. I'd look around as much as you can and and keep all options open as long as possible.

Thanks for this everyone - my word I had no idea that some 10-11 year olds could achieve grade 8! How humbling!

I have contacted all the schools and have their information. They have all said that my daughter is the right standard (grade 4-5) but some look for more than others - eg she is very behind on music theory and one is looking for grade 5. Another couldn't care less about music theory! I think the pre-audions will give us a fair idea and perhaps eliminate one or two so she won't have to go through it all at three places.

I think she's done very well considering the short time she's been playing, the fact she's not supremely intelligent (which a lot of high achieving musical kids are) and the fact that neither my husband or myself are musicians. I remain cautiously optimistic about her playing as she seems to win just about every competition she's ever entered, on both instruments. She's done holiday courses, gets moved by 'serious' music and inspired by jazz. But you are all absolutely right - we will play it down and see it as a bonus if she's lucky enough to get a scholarship.

We're working hard on upping her acacemic performance and doing bits during the holidays. She'll never make an academic scholarship but should pass the entrance exams OK.

Good point!

If she is winning competitions left right and centre she obviously has a certain amount of musical flair, so I think she definitely has a fair chance even if she is not in the position of practically walking the whole thing. I hope it works out for her!

Two of the schools said that they require a grade lower in strings than other instruments, and one school (the most musical one which wants the grade 5 theory) said that very few children get to grade 5 level on a string instrument at 11. Is that your experience? From what you are all saying this isn't necessarily true, so it's good that I've had a reality check.

Yes, you are right, rosemariem, I personally have come across loads, yes, literally loads of children who have reached grade 5 level at age 9 and 10. Recently, I met a boy in my daughter's orchestra who got his grade 4 in ABRSM cello exam after just 18 months' lessons in all. However, national figures are only theoretical. In reality, whether your daughter stands a good chance can best be answered by you in that you know the local schools' requirements/expectations or maybe even the local competition more. Check out the best players' standard in your local county/borough (strings or general) orchestra for comparison in cello. But your daughter does sound very impressive to be doing grade 3 piano within a year!

You are also right to be doing your best in "upping" her academic credentials. This is so important because it's a common requirement. Good schools want talented musicians who are also above average academically. There are private tutors who can make a big difference in your daughter's performance if you engage them for a year.

One further comment that I've heard from a few people is that in some schools there is a greater tendency to offer scholarships to those students who play instruments they may be short of - and schools are often short of good string players. I dont know what the position is at the schools you are applying to.

I wonder about the wisdom of going to extremes though - if a child has to have private tuition to get into a school, isn't there the possibility they will struggle IN that school? I'm not a parent... I'm claiming no expertise... but I have met people who got through the 11 plus and then ended up in grammar schools struggling... it's just something to bear in mind.

[quote=sarah-flute,Aug 26 2005, 06:56 PM]
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I wonder about the wisdom of going to extremes though - if a child has to have private tuition to get into a school, isn't there the possibility they will struggle IN that school? I'm not a parent... I'm claiming no expertise... but I have met people who got through the 11 plus and then ended up in grammar schools struggling... it's just something to bear in mind.

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But this isn't coaching to get to the level needed for entry to the school - but coaching needed to get to the level that they might offer a music scholarship. The problem is more of that sort of thing you do, the harder it is to keep the pressure off. At least improving English & Maths skills will always be useful whatever school you end up at though.

Having received a scholarship, though, doesn't the child then have to keep up that level of both musical and academic achievement?

I know a child of one of the couples at church has had a bit of difficulty over a scholarship because she wanted to stop one of her instruments or something - even though I think she planned to keep playing in school musical items, and was planning to learn a new instrument... I forget exact details...

Like I say, I don't know anything about this really, it's just a thought, that while it's great to learn extra skills in English/Maths, if the child is in a sense misrepresented in the entrance exams, it may mean expectations are raised too high when they enter the school... which = more pressure for the child to keep that up so as not to lose the scholarship.

Different schools may well work in different ways - worth checking the details. But it's quite a lot of pressure on an 11 year old if they know that their marks or achievement dropping = mum and dad having to fork out more for school/having to move to a different school.

Certainly something to think about there! I don't think there would be too much academic pressure for a music award but certainly you couldn't just give up all your instruments without forfeiting the discount. On the other hand if you were contemplating independant education anyway and your child did want to give up you would just view the years of discount you had recieved as a bonus and you could look at it as incentive for your child not to give up their music lightly rather than pressure to continue. It all depends on how you handle it. I don't think a moderate amount of coaching is going to give a school an unrealistic opinion of your abilities, especially if you consider how many of the other children will be doing the same. Nearly all children applying for independent/grammar schools will be given at least some preparation/practise, especially if they are percieved to be around the pass/fail or scholarship boundaries, so it might be under-representing your childs abilities not to do any. On the other hand, someone I know got their child 3 different tutors (simultaneously) to get into grammar school - that's overdoing things!

Yes, you are right. This is typical playground discussion among parents.

I was an observer for a whole day at a top grammar school a little over 2 years ago and I was told by the school that about half of the girls have undertaken tuition to get into the school. However, once they are in, the great majority can survive as the teaching is very good but a few cannot cope and sadly, one student told me that the school will advise such a child to take her GCSEs a year later!

Having said that, this is not the case here. Rosemariem is aiming for private schools (not grammar schools) and sorry to say this but it is true that a lot of students in even good private secondary schools do not "make" the grade academically in that they only just pass the 11 plus despite the years of 11 plus tuition in EVERY independent primary school (which tuition is equivalent to the one given outside by private tutors) but as they have lots of dosh, they still get in whether they are "academic" or otherwise.

Let's just say truly albeit bluntly that the struggling is a lot less apparent BUT they do get a more rounded and balanced education due to more funding and good facilities instead of a slightly more narrow and focussed "academic" education. There are always exceptions to the general rule, of course.

Tess

PS. I laughed when I heard a dad boasting about his kid NOT having had any 11 plus tuition but got into a good independent senior school. The independent primary school his kid was in happens to be the same as the one my friend went. And guess what? She told me that that school grilled her in 11 plus tests IN school for years such that she herself later got into a top grammar school easily!

Yep - like I say - no expert and not a parent, and went to comps my whole school life (the staff at my primary school did not "believe in" the 11 plus and elitist schooling, though without wanting to sound big headed, I would have passed had I been entered) - no grammar schooling, and no private schools either (couldn't possibly have afforded them without a huge bursary, and again, teachers at my primary school did not believe in children being entered for scholarships etc)... it's just something to think about, and to find out what kind of academic and musical average she would be expected to keep up to keep the scholarship, whether that is feasible, and what would happen if she didn't keep up - ie could you afford to keep sending her to the school anyway (in which case it probably isn't a problem) or would it become a big struggle, in which case it could become a problem: it's not easy for any child to move schools, especially in an important year such as middle of GCSEs or similar.

Sarah,
I went to a church school myself so I'm different but my friends' kids have scholarships from local independent schools and these were given for the WHOLE duration of senior school! There is no keeping up for academic scholarships as these are based on the results per se. Brilliant!

However, for music scholarships there IS a requirement to play in the school orchestras even if doing so includes travelling. It means, rosemariem, in effect that your daughter cannot give up her instrument no matter what! Whether this poses a problem is impossible to know except by hindsight, I'm afraid.

Tess

Oh right - now that IS helpful!

lol, can you tell I know very little about this??!

Oh Sarah, I have a confession to make. I know absolutely nothing about grammar schools and independent ones having been to a church school myself. But ON BECOMING A PARENT every parent make it their business to boast to me about their kids' scholarships!

PS. Violinutter goes to a local comprehensive school which is excellent (although not for music - no money for it!).

I expect your "nothing" is slightly more knowledgeable than my "nothing" tess *biggrin* anyway best stop before we descend into boasting about how little we know...

my comp was good for music once....

I thought she was only 8! Surely she goes to primary school at the moment?!

Oops, sorry, Jo, you are right. She goes to the local primary school in Highams Park which is back to back (I mean both literally and physically) with Highams Park Secondary School and it is the latter that is comprehensive! They are stuck to each other in viewing terms in that one can hear and see the other all the time so I have often mistakenly perceive them as natural progression though they are separately run, of course! Apologies. But she has always wanted to learn Russian some day which is not offered in most schools (whether church, comprehensive or independent) as there is only ONE school that I know in all of east and north London that offers Russian... and that happens to be a grammar one.

Tess: she really shouldn't worry about learning Russian straight away anyway. As I said, she can study ab initio at uni and in some ways will be advantaged over the post-a-level people! So although if she gets into a school that does it, great, don't worry if she doesn't, she will have plenty of time later.

Sarah

That's exactly what I keep telling her but this woman is so stubborn! Grrr... I sometimes feel like Gnasher the dog in the Beano comic magazine she's now reading! She reads thrash, too, you know. But she grinned at me in the most ridiculous way as if she knows what she's on about and said - please mum, I want to learn Russian now so when I finished school (I suppose she meant 17? Or 18?), I can go to Kogan's and Vic's (she meant her idol, Leonid Kogan and also Mullova) Moscow Conservatory if I want to. This woman is not worried. She's just plain stubborn. Her achilles heel is also her strength in that she seems to have a clear sense of what she pretty much wants in life. No, she's not worried, she's just mad about music and always thinking and planning in that quiet brain of hers ... watch out, world... here comes the mad musician! I laughed and told her she will definitely freeze in Moscow! Mad.

I suspect she'll eventually get a music place (it's not called music scholarship in non-private schools) in some school which is good for music like yours, Sarah.

Which reminds me - by the way, rosemariem, we are not sending our kid there but have you thought of Purcell School in Hertfordshire? Financially, they are very supportive of talented kids like your daughter AND they will NOT judge her on any academic criteria at all for entry. They offer both full and part (Mon-Fri) boarding as well as day school options.

Oh I see! Well I guess I can see her point then!

Well if she must learn it at school, just check they teach it well or failing that she can save up her pocket money for a private tutor, eh? Even if her Russian was pretty basic and then she went to Moscow, she would pick it up pretty quickly having to use it all day every day (spoken from experience!) - she could always go live with a Russian family for the duration, then she'd come back both sparkling on the violin and fluent in Russian!

She's quite a girl isn't she??! You should get her to record something for the forum users' website - bet she will put us to shame...

ps, if she wants to get a head start and learn some Russian now, let me know, more than happy to help you do a bit of research for suitable books! if you were vaguely close to me I'd offer lessons!

Well isn't this fun seeing how 'conversations' develop along all kinds of different lines. But to answer some of your very good points - we have already decided the senior school attached to my daughter's primary school isn't right for her as it's one of the most academic in the country. The ones we are looking at are sort of 100 - 250 in the 'charts' which means they are still very good schools but she should be comfortable. Her current school is very good and next term offers after school extra tuition in maths, english and science for those (my daughter is one) who need this in order to do well in common entrace in January, which she will take for one of the schools (the other two have their own entrance exams. So what with this, the two instruments and one night playing in the senior school orchestra, another night doing steel drums, and another theatre drama club, I really don't think I could make her do yet more extra tuition. Her school strongly advises against tuition to get into their senior school for exactly the reason you stated - struggling once the prop has been taken away (but I can't help wondering if they would just consider it a failure on themselves if their pupils took extra coaching)?

Re the Purcell school, I did look at specialist music schools and visited Wells, but apart from not wanting to board her, we did think that being with other very, and much more, musical kids would make her average in the one thing she excels in, and her confidence might suffer. Do you know what I mean?

Re the strings comment, I think the school meant that very few who went for scholarships there achieved that standard, rather than it was rare nationally which it most certainly isn't.

... Her current school is very good and next term offers after school extra tuition in maths, english and science for those ... quote


Yes, I thought so. All the independent primary schools in Essex offer 11+ tuition. I suspect it's the same elsewhere in UK. This is good for her, rosemariem. No need another after-school (I mean, outside of school) activity from her point of view AND no need an additional driver's job/destination for you!

A word from Japan, the Land of Cram

Kids here entering private schools tend to do so either at age 11-12 or age 14-15. From what I see around me, exam prep for the younger kids really is a 3-legged race with Mum. This means that Mums of 11 year old exam candidates have to walk a tightrope between supporting a young child and crushing them with their expectations.

On the other hand, I now think that coaching has its uses...and I'm the one who thought that studying for exams was a form of cheating until I was about 15 . In particular, when I compare Japanese and New Zealand schools, I think there are some kids who just can't learn in a noisy, restless classroom - for them, a little Mum-provided homework or coaching is a blessing.

There are two useful things that coaching can do:

1) Teach a child how to revise and learn material, and how to attack certain types of problem. This can be a huge confidence builder, especially for kids who understand things as a whole, but don't know where to start in analyzing or explaining them. It's only a problem when it is overdone to the point where the child's own ideas and approaches are shouted down and the "right way" is rigidly enforced. There *are* kids who are coached and forced into schools they can't cope with, yes, but a good coaching service won't advise that.

2) Pinpoint and fill in gaps and weak areas - experienced tutors are light years ahead of parents in figuring out where these lie. Parents may be surprised to find how specific and MINOR the problem areas are - they expand to monstrous size when they seem to trip a child up in every area of learning, yet they're entirely manageable once identified.

I don't think a moderate amount of extra work as a child approaches the end of primary school is a mistake - after all, the things we learn in primary school are supposed (?!) to be absolutely essential. Secondary schools are going to assume that that is true, so consolidating primary school learning is useful. I keep telling my kids that nothing they learn in primary school is optional...if only they believed me!

And as for coaching institutions themselves - I'm sure there are good and bad examples in the UK as in Japan, but the one which son Airman has attended for the past 18 months supports the kids, doesn't set them against each other, and encourages their questions and ideas. Airman comes home from his local school exhausted and depressed at 5pm, then goes to cram school and comes home all smiles and sparkle...weird, but surely not bad?!