I recently bought a book of the complete Schubert piano sonatas. I have found midi files but they are completely emotionless and thus no help whatsoever. I was wondering if anyone who knows the sonatas had any recommendations of one for me to learn. I am about grade 6 standard at the moment. Thanks in advance.

Boo Radley

Edit: Oh pants, I spelt his name wrong in the title. Duh!!

Hi Boo

This question interested me. Most of Schubert's piano sonatas that I have heard are virtuoso works. I am not all that familiar with them, having only ever played 3 of them myself.

I only have the AB volume 1. Looking through, I would expect a grade 6 standard student to be able to play:
Op 122 in Eb 2nd (although rather long) and 3rd movements. This is printed as sonata no 3b, 3a being this one composed in Db.
D 537 in A minor, second mvmt (one of the 3 that I have played).

Wow. After that, the volume appears to be full of appendix-to-this, unfinished-version-of-that. I could spend hours going through it all and not be able to identify individual movements in a way that you could recognise. A messy volume, to say the least.

Finally, the posthumous Bb sonata has one of the most glorious slow movements ever written. This can be tackled, technically at least, by most grade 7 standard pianists.

Hope this helps, Boo.

Steve

Thanks Steve, knew I could rely on you!

That is a help indeed as from my experience the Bb appears to be the most popular even though I have never heard a recorded version (except for the scherzo), only a MIDI.

Having said that I am grade 6, I am more than willing to attempt pieces slightly above grade 6 standard. There are several pieces that I know are too difficult for me to even attempt but I am currently making a (fairly) good fist of the Maple Leaf Rag and Wedding Day at Trolldhaugen by Grieg, albeit a little slow in the majestic section. (Do you know this piece Steve?)

I am also progressively attempting the Scherzo from the Bb Sonata, which is actually the reason that I got the Schubert book in the first place. I think this is a wonderful little movement, is the rest of the sonata this good?

Boo

Hi Boo

I was thinking of adding the scherzo to the list. I often use it with approx grade 7 standard players. If you are tackling this with some success, you might be able to do some of the second sonata, the A minor. The second movement is gorgeous. The last movement is still a little difficult for you technically, but you can always slow it down, just for the satisfaction of playing it.

And, yes. The rest of the Bb is fabulous; one of Schuberts greatest piano works.

Steve

I adore this piece I have it down on my list of things to do between grades 6 and 7 (having been reliably informed it's around grade 7 standard); so I'm guessing it's around the right level for you. How about a recording for the site when you can play it ?.

Wedding Day at Troldhaugen is a fun piece to play I agree and I think it was on the Grade 7 syllabus recently.

Gae

I used Wedding Day for years, as an encore for the right kind of music society or a 'finisher' for mid-day concerts.

Although it is a light-weight piece, I never give it to anybody below grade 8 (passed) standard. To be successful, a performance has to have considerable virtuosity; pianists have to be able to launch themselves at the big passages with complete confidence and considerable pleasure.

By contrast, the middle section requires a sensitivity way beyond that demonstrated by most grade 7 players. This piece easily becomes trite and pointless; the skill in playing it comes in avoiding this happening.

Steve

Really?! I didn't realise it was that standard. I really wish I had the technology to record, I'll have to try and get a microphone sometime.

So far most of the piece is respectable, the only stumbling block being the sextuplicated (a word?) semiquavers in the left hand in the majestic section. If you wouldn't mind Steve, if I do get a microphone, I could send you a copy of the recording first to see if you notice any glaring errors before I submit it to the website.

I really couldn't tell you much about my performance of the middle section, I get (virtually ) all the notes and dynamics and try to use expression but at this stage this probably needs a lot of work too.

Incidentally Steve, the thread where I was asking about hand spans was in part relating to the section just before the descending octaves - a stretch of Eb to F with a Bb in between. I can just make this but often touch other notes when this hand position jumps up the octave.

Of course. I would love to hear it.


This is the tender interlude. Imagine the two lovers enjoying a few quiet, tender moments together. Imagine the lh crossover notes (mostly D's) as the wringing of a church bell; try to create a bell-like sound that rings without being overly intrusive. Imagine the melody at the top of the rh is the girl, that split between the rh thumb and the lh as being the boy. Try to create a dialogue between them.

After the middle section double bar, there is the glorious section that begins with spread B major second inversion chord. You can create a fantastic sound here by using the soft pedal (on a grand, doesn't do much on an upright) and hold down the sustaining pedal through the first four bars; do the same when the passage repeats in G. It is worth repeating the whole section, assuming you can play it poetically enough.


I have the same problem. My 9th stretch is from white to white notes, or black to black, but not black to white. The solutions are to spread the chord, which sounds naff, or abandon the F at the top, which is what I do. The way I play the whole section, starting with the pp alternating chords a few lines back is: accelerate and crescendo, so that I am going very quickly by the time I hit the nasty lh stretch bit (one of the reasons I abandon the F); I pull the lh stretch bit right back over the last two so that I enter the lh octave answered by rh single notes section slowly; I accelerate so much through this that the leaping Ab chord sections are probably travelling about crotchet = 240; I pull the tempo of these right back over the next 4 bars so that I can create a musically logical pause on the final one; I then use the rh triplet to establish a much slower speed for the concluding section of this part of the piece, aiming for a sense of grandeur and splendour rather than high speed - I have already 'done' the speed

This is far from being the only way to play this, but it perhaps explains why I do not see it as a pre grade 8 piece.

By-the-bye, hand span is nothing to do with long fingers and little to do with webbing. It is all to do with the size of the bony structure of the hand. If this is wide, then the player has a huge span. If this is narrow, then the span is narrow. There is little, if anything, we can do to change this.

Steve

Wow, yet again thanks a lot for a wealth of information, your interpretation must sound absolutely superb! I will suggest leaving out the top F to my piano teacher and see what he says.

ps. How about recording the piece for your website Steve so I can hear what it is really supposed to sound like?

Right, I was thinking last night that I might retake the practical exam of music A2, seeing as I am still in the area of the school and my playing has come on a lot since this year's exam (a D grade). I am also only 8 marks off a B which was my original predicted grade and the grade I really want to get.

I was considering what pieces I might do (theoretically at this stage) and decided upon Chopin's Nocturne in E Flat and Nyman's The Heart Asks Pleasure First as the 2nd and 3rd pieces respectively. However I was a bit stumped as to what piece to open with, seeing as the Rondo Alla Turca would cause the recital to exceed 10 minutes.

So I thought that the Scherzo from Schubert's Bb Sonata (as discussed above) would be ideal but I realised that this will only fit within the time limit if I leave out the Trio. Would this be considered musical sacrilege, bad musical etiquette or would this be perfectly acceptable?

I'd appreciate any response as I'm really not sure.

Boo

I LOVE this piece!!

I know this might not be a lot of help but on Classical Music Archives, you can register as a free member and there are a few live mp3's of his piano sonatas that you can download and listen to, and they are a lot better than midi!

I suppose you need to consider what is deemed 'acceptable'. In a non-professional recital, it is normal to perform just a movement or two from a sonata\concerto\suite. A part of a movement is a different thing altogether. It is hard to imagine this being acceptable.

This cannot be a good idea, Boo. The Nyman is populist, sentimental pap, so can you ditch this instead?

Steve

I personally like the Nyman very much and think it would show a good deal of technique and expression that maybe wouldn't be evident in other pieces. It also shows a different style of playing to the other two pieces, whatever they be. It is a shame about the Schubert if that is the case, do you have any other suggestions as to potential jolly pieces under 3 minutes that I could use as my first piece Steve?

Boo

Only come into this thread late. What exam are you doing?

I cannot think of a single piece off-hand, Boo, but I will think about it. The problem is the 3 minutes bit.

How about a couple of pieces from Mike Cornick's Latin Piano - a collection of jazzy style pieces written in Latin dance styles?

Or 'Wild Rose Rag' from 'Rags Blues and Parodies' by Peter Dickinson (Novello). This is set by Trinity for grade 6 this year and is good fun to play. It is a parody of 'To a Wild Rose' by MacDowell (AB Keyboard Anthology, book 3 second series - but check on the series before buying it); a nice 'warm-up' to the recital might consist of playing the MacDowell then the parody on it by Dickinson.

I will leave my brain to play around with this overnight and post any intelligent results from this activity in the morning.

Steve

Steve

MC is fab.I currently have one pupil,as an example,playing Feline Boogie...plus others ,of course.My mind is frazzled at the moment,so I can only remember things from a couple of hours ago.

He and Pam Wedgewood have made a colossal difference to the amount of practise done by a lot of my pupils. I am also finding that the enthusiasm their music generates is feeding across into studying 'classical' repertoire for exams.

Steve

Likewise Martha Mier, who has inspired some of my pupils too!

I keep meaning to look into her, cd. Which do you recommend?

Steve

going back to the Schubert Sonatas, last years Schubert Sonata in A is a fab piece to play, but i've noticed it has a passage like the finale of Beethoven's Waldstein although not as difficult

Jazz Rags & Blues. There are 4 books in total, plus 4 in duet form, I think. All are pretty good - although they get quite tricky by the last book.
Book 1 is described as late elementary to early intermediate, working through to late intermediate in the last book. I start to use book 1 round about grade 1 level, and some of the pieces in book 2 I've used with pupils doing their standard grade exam at school which needs to be about grade 3.

Thanks cd. I will get copies.

Steve

Hey Semele, I was hoping to retake the performance module for A2 Music. It is a 10 minute recital, preferably encompassing a range of styles and eras. As already mentioned, I am looking for an opening piece and was thinking of the Schubert Sonata in Bb Scherzo but as Steve said, that probably is unacceptable.

I will most likely have the Maple Leaf Rag and Golliwog's Cakewalk under wraps by that stage as they are (slowly) approaching fluency currently. My only concern is that if I used either of these pieces, the Chopin would be my earliest piece (and not particularly early at that).

Steve - thanks I will look into the Mike Cornick book. Any other intelligent activity overnight?

Boo, I have been bothering this problem all day, rather like a dog that cannot leave a bone alone. The difficulty is the 3 minutes; most decent pieces last longer than this.

Inspiration has just struck. Beethoven'c Bagatelle in C, op 33 no 2 fits the bill perfectly - a fraction over 3 minutes playing time with all the repeats and a bright, bouncy start to the recital. Following it with the Chopin would make a great contrast. I give this Bagatelle to grade 7 standard players.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Thanks for worrying so much Steve, I have just downloaded the sheet music and midi file of this piece and it looks good. I am however a little concerned about the left hand triplets and long runs of thirds in the right hand. Would I get the hang of these after a while do you think?

I just read your 'Grade 5 piano' signature. Is this merely the last exam you passed or does it represent your actual performing leve? If not, can you put a 'grade' to it?

Steve

I got a distinction in grade 5 piano in April, since then here are the pieces I have been learning:

Grieg: Wedding day (yay) - dropped now as my teacher thought there was little more I could do to improve it
Nyman: The Heart... - Likewise
Mozart: Rondo Alla Turca - Have just got semiquaver runs of C section even and up to speed, now working on broken octaves
Joplin: Maple Leaf Rag - Have A and B sections pretty fluent, C and D sections not quite fluent
Beethoven: Pathetique 2nd - Only been learning this for a few weeks, nearly fluent, just a bit more expression needed in certain places
Debussy: Golliwog's Cakewalk - have been learning this for quite a while, still struggle to keep the left hand notes continuously accurate

Don't know what standard this makes me, I never like to give myself a grade that I havn't passed in case I'm deemed inadequate for that standard.

I get the picture, Boo. Without actually hearing and watching you play, here is what I think.

The lh triplets should not cause a problem with practise. They are repetitive. The rh thirds in the trio sound great when played staccato, so you can play them all with your second and fourth fingers.

You have downloaded the piece, so give it a try.

Steve

Fantastic! I will definitely give this piece a go Steve, thanks for all the info.
Boo
ps. Hope I didn't deprive you of any nice dreams last night.

Another couple of possibilities that I came up with are Minuet in G by Beethoven and Moment Musical Op. 94 No. 3 by Schubert. What do you think of these two pieces Steve?
ps. I am going to print off the Bagatelle tomorrow and give it a go.

The Schubert would make a pleasant opener. My playing time for it is 1 minute 50 seconds and I do not play it quickly, so is it long enough?

Which minuet in G do you mean - the one from the op 49 sonata?

Steve

That should be fine as it is better to go under than over, plus a 15 second gap between pieces is always preferable!

Erm, in my book it doesn't actually give it an opus number. I think it's quite well known though, it goes (with added thirds below): B C D C D C D C D in a 'dotted quaver then semiquaver' rhythm. Hope that makes sense.

Hi Boo

I thought it might be the one you describe - the one from the sonata is a little long.

I would not go for this one if there are 'difficulty level' marks to pick up. In this case, I would go for the Schubert. As under-time is better than over-time, this is also a better choice than the C major Bagatelle.

As well as timing individual items, time several run-throughs of the whole programme. This way you can practise a little extra diddling around in between pieces if the programme is a few seconds too short

Hope all this helps

Steve

No problem, I'm an expert diddler. I have been working on the Moment Musical for a few weeks now and I think its should comfortably be ready by April. As I already have the Chopin and Nyman up to a good standard, I won't need to drastically alter my schedule to get the recital sorted, which is probably a good thing in case my marks don't improve. Thanks for the help Steve, I will keep you posted.

Diddling expertise is a prime requirement for anybody producing recitals to a strict time limit. Good to see this expertise developing so well

Steve

If it's the dreaded Edexcel you will be penalised for going under time, but the examiners like to hear some applause. Try and get whoever's listening to applaud loudly and enthusiastically for the extra odd 10-seconds or so that you might need.

I used to get the 7 or 8 people in the audience to clap thunderously, cheer, stamp their feet and yell 'encore' for as many extra seconds as the student needed.

Would you get penalised for going over time as well??

There is always an under\over safety margin, hence the need for whole-programme as well as individual piece timings.

Steve

How wide's the safety margain?

The heart asks pleasure first by Nyman is actually an arrangement of a traditional scottish melody.

Depends on the individual exam regs, which differ from board to board both in their range and severity.

Back in your day, for example, edexcel music major recitals were 20 minutes; there was leeway of about plus or minus 5 minutes - generous but reflecting the age and comparative immaturity of most candidates, along with the fact that they were recorded in school and marked by the teacher, so examiner timetabling was not critical. Anybody trying this sort of timing variation in a pro diploma would probably fail.

Steve

Unfortunately there is no audience, just me and the examiner (or should that be the examiner and I). I'm sure if I'm heading way under time I can conjure up a coughing fit or develop a twitch. I could even extend the ornament right at the end of the nocturne so that it lasted for 30 seconds or so!


I have heard that actually, because Nyman says that he got his inspiration for the soundtrack from Scottish folk songs. I think it is a lovely piece, especially when started quiet and built up to finish in dramatic style.

Yes. Start the ornament veeerrryyyyy slowly and accelerate gradually towards the 6th repetition, the decelerate towards the decent after the twelfth repetition; rubato the descent out of sight; indulge in a massive rit over the Eb major chord for the last 4 bars.

Or play it at a ridiculously high speed. You could make the last few bars of this piece last anything from about a 10 seconds to a minute if you needed to

Easy, this recital timing business, if you choose the right pieces.

Steve

I've started to practise the on in A major for my DipABRSM.....D694?? And it's really wonderful, loving it!!