I am very very very upset today.

I have tried so many times this morning to do my new 3-octave G major scale but it's just not coming! It sounded terrible like a strangled cat. How do I do it! What have I done wrong?

Did I remember it wrongly? I wonder.

The other trouble I have is, my teacher said my wrist CAN turn if I'm totally relaxed. Problem is, when I tried hard to relax, I got tense. But when I didn't try, I was tense, anyway so I can't turn to tap!!! I am well and truly stuck!

Can anyone tell me HOW to relax maybe even without trying?

Luckily, today (first day of school) wasn't too bad at all but glad to be home.

Desperate Violinutter

Hi there VN don't despair!!

I do 3 octave scales by doing the two octave normally, changing strings, and then the last octave up the e string. This means 2 position changes, and for me that is the difficult bit to keep in tune.

When you shift remember to move your thumb, don't leave it behind, and in the initial stages listen to the slide so you can hear when you have hit the right note.

When you get up to the top of the fingerboard your thumb moves under the fingerboard, and your elbow moves round so that your hand can move up (hope all this makes sense) and it is useful to practise this move smoothly without playing so that it becomes a natural positon for the hand and arm and thumb when in the high positions. Difficult to explain in words

Just gotta keep practising......

I suspect that you might not have enough practise shifting to and playing on higher position. The three octave G major scale requires a shift to the 5th position, and in order for the last finger to stretch effortlessly to the high G note on the 5th position, as your teacher has said, you need to turn your hands inwards, such that your palm is facing the fingerboard. The trick is, you have to turn the palm inwards at the moment you shift your hands to the 5th position (ie, then your 1st finger is on the C note on the E-string), not when you are about to play the high notes with your 4th finger, it would be too late by then.
Try playing the scale slowly many times with seperate bow first, practise especially shifting from the 3rd to the 5th position. You will soon be able to play the scale smoothly.

have a look here: http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...99&hl=3+octaves

this thread was specifically about the C major 3 octaves scale on the viola, but the variety of fingerings you can use is similar or the same.

3 octave scales are piggy, and it will take practice to be able to play them confidently - don't give up hope, it will come!

The other trouble I have is, my teacher said my wrist CAN turn if I'm totally relaxed. Problem is, when I tried hard to relax, I got tense. But when I didn't try, I was tense, anyway so I can't turn to tap!!! I am well and truly stuck!

Can anyone tell me HOW to relax maybe even without trying?

Try moving. That is, make sure that you can wiggle each finger in turn and also your left thumb, your left elbow and shoulder.......and THEN shift.

Just had a thought - one thing is, if you're TRYING so hard, you're probably maing yourself get even tenser! Remember that you've only just started learning 3 octave scales, they're hard, and no one is expecting you to perfect them in 3 days flat. Don't try so hard. Chill, decide that it'll come with time, and give yourself permission to not be perfect straight away. If you take the pressure off you'll be less worried about it - because, after all, you have plenty of time to learn all this stuff - and you may find that if you are more relaxed about the whole thing you will have more success anyway. But seriously. If you keep telling yourself you MUST get it, you're putting so much pressure on yourself!

Just about to PM your mum about a Russian book *grin*

Try a little Tai Chi before each practice session to relax the body and get the mind focussed.

And you could always try the "magic crystals"! A VFV (very famous violinist) recommends soaking your hands in hot water with some epsom salts in before practising, and HE has no problems with 3 octave scales

Tai chi? Are you serious? Isn't this for adults?

VN

It really does take lots and lots and lots and lots of practice to get 3-octave scales fluent, AND in tune, both ascending and descending.

Far from it happening over night, music college students with all the years work they've already done can still be struggling with intonation and fluency in the higher 3rd octave scales ie. D major through to F#. I've freelanced with the RPO....even we 'the professionals' have intonation wobbles from time to time, all string-players do - especially as the gaps get smaller and smaller between each note.

Just stick at it and remember to practice 3-octave scales slowly, seperate bows, to begin with. Forget any thoughts about racing up and down the fingerboard or trying to play them fast - that bit will gradually come on its own as your playing improves. Concentrate on your intonation and technique.



The VFV makes playing on the squeakiest region of the E string, look sickeningly easy. I can say that the 'magic crystals' do work, I've tried them myself. Got something of a strange look from the pharmacist when I asked for two 500 g boxes of the stuff though. I had some explaining to do before he would sell them me.

Saying 'Relax!' is one of the best ways to make people tense up, or just doing something tricky and too fast.

Tension- can you tense all the muscles in your arm (without violin) then relax them and think about how it feels. Then do the same thing with the violin and just practice putting your hand in the awkward position and relaxing the muscles without playing. Then waggle your fingers, then play really slowly remembering how your arm felt when relaxed.

Can you get single notes up there which you like the sound of? This can be practiced separate from the scale.

In what way do they help?

I think *trying* to relax is the real mistake - as soon as you're trying to, you are no longer relaxed, so I find.

Hi VN, no I don't think it is only for adults...it is very gentle and there are some very simple exercises which if done before you practise will help to relax your muscles and calm any nerves.

Are you going to the concert on September? If so I'll show you a couple

They're magic, so no-one knows how they help I think it is something to do woth the magnesium's effect on the muscles.

Yes say "Relax" to someone and they tense up. This is where Tai Chi can help

Epsom Salts work surprisingly well at relaxing muscles in the large colon (if you get my drift) Hence why the pharmacist was a little worried about selling me an entire kilogram of them in one hit. (I would imagine there are people out there who exploit their laxative qualities by using them in dangerous quantities in order to lose weight).

They work just as well disolved in very warm water but rather than drinking it for digestive reasons, soak your hands in the water instead. Im not quite sure how the Mg works on the muslces, (I've yet to look that up) but it really does make the hands feel relaxed and very flexible.

Hi everyone,

A big thanks for all your marvelous advice!

I don't know, Jane, whether I am going to the concert yet but if I do, then we will look out for you.

I am still sounding a bit squeaky I heard mum mentioned earlier today. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to get it at least QUITE RIGHT, if not perfect, this week. I really want to finish grade 4 and grade 5 stuff in 2 terms by the end of March. I must!!! Because I have to play grade 5 stuff on to a video for them to let me in. Otherwise I'll miss going to Procorda/Penny Stirling's chamber music course with my friends! They will go next summer without me!

Will try again later tonight. Any advice to get better at it will be welcomed.

The bit of advice on trying to relax only makes me tense is very good!

VN

Panic not! You have masses of time, truly. G Major 3 octaves is grade 5 isn't it? Unless I have totally lost touch... but you really have a lot of time to perfect it, and putting yourself under pressure to get it absolutely spot on in one week's probably counter-productive - the more pressure you put on yourself, the more tense you're likely to get, and the harder it gets. So honestly, just take a deep breath, remind yourself that you have 6 months to get all this done (and you have FLOWN so far, so I expect you're going to manage ) and do the best you can.

Hope it's going ok...

I know I shouldn't spy on VN on the forum but now I'm glad I did.

She has told me of the wonderful support she has received from everyone from Jane to Sarah from errard, violingirl and especially to the guy whose name begins with G (whose advice was she said very clear and helpful) and others, too.

Today she told me she has got it! Every single note right! She felt sure about this. Just for today, mind, tomorrow will be a different day, of course but it does not matter. Having got a first crack was very satisfying even if the rest of the week should go pear-shaped. The bit of confidence to return to doing it right, is now, there!

I think she was pushing herself too hard, really, though I quite understand how she might have felt - no one feels good if their good friends will be going away and enjoying themselves without them especially on a musical retreat!!! For my part, I wished I were at Leicestershire for Kodaly THIS summer! *sigh* No money.

The BEST advice she said was the bit on "Not telling her fingers to relax for goodness sake!" but instead "wiggle each finger in turn" as all self-talking did was to make her all the more tense!

The next few weeks should be great!

Tess

PS. Sarah, she has no idea 3-octave G major is a grade 5 scale because we are not told as such. She's NOT doing any more exams at all in the next few years other than just grade 5 theory, you see. He's only preparing her for Procorda and 2 other auditions. Thanks a lot for your encouragement!

Wow! Wish I'd got it (even once!) that quickly...


Definitely, but I'm glad she has so much support from you and she seems to be doing brilliantly.


Ahhh I'd forgotten that. Well I believe it is. So she has a while to perfect it, and by the sounds of it she's doing amazingly well already. It took me AGES to learn it in fact I still don't play my 3 octave scales very well, but then I don't practice nearly as hard as violinnutter I dare to say!

Hi Sarah and friendly folks...
I have been offered to play in a primary (grade 1 to 3) and a youth (grade 4 and above) orchestra! Someone somewhere is either a bit stupid or not very competent or quite confused to cause this confusion! I am actually grade 3 now though my teacher said to us that I should be able to do grade 5 stuff next March. Sorry, it is a bit confusing but I honestly need your advice.

Join the primary bec it's nice to be with kids my age (actually they are 11, yikes!) and have fun or join the oldies (12 and above) and tolerate their teasing my sight-reading but then I get the chance to learn loads from these oldies? My sight-reading is NOT at all good! May find it a hard act to follow?

What are the good and not-so-good points to think about?

VN

Um. It's hard to say. Which one sounds more fun to you? Your gut reaction is a good place to start.

Also, ask your teacher.

My instinct would be to say that the lower one will probably be more fun but may get boring quickly - but then once you're used to orchestral playing you may find yourself moving up in it quickly to a senior position, which is fun and will give you a taste of maybe leading or co-leading a section - or maybe even leading the orchestra eventually if you can prove you're capable - whereas the higher one will be more interesting and challenging. You may find yourself stuck at the back of seconds for a while and it would be being thrown in at the deep end, but you'll learn because you'll have to! (It's difficult when you're bang in between, and there's no obvious answer to which one will suit you best based on your level.) Which of those scenarios appeals to you best?

Any chance of doing both? Even for a little while to see which suits you best?

Hi VN,

I know you didn't ask me, but sightreading is very important in an orchestra (which may give you some motivation to practise more though ) so if you're struggling with that you may find it hard in the older orchestra. However, of course, if you want to put in a lot of effort to learn each piece any you're allowed to take the scores home, then you might be okay, but of course this won't benefit your sightreading as much. Did they test sightreading at the auditions or not? I get the impression they usually do, if so you might be better than you think .

Seriously though just go for the one, as Sarah says, that you think will be the most fun. Do you prefer to be around older people who you can learn from; or younger people of the same age as you? What opportunities do you prefer, being in a prominent position in an orchestra with easier repertoire; or being at the back but learning harder things?

Whatever you decide I'm sure you'll do well: keep up the good work .

Very true. It is also one of the good ways of improving your sight-reading though!

I played for about 6 months in a string quintet with two ATCL level violinists and two ATCL level cellists...

My viola playing improved VERY fast!

Dear Sarah, Jane and AP,
I'm so touched. You have all been so wonderful. Guess what? I have some good news, thanks to you all. VN was so down initially. To her the scale was a Herculean task but having been buoyed by your encouragement, advice and support here, she did manage her scale in the end. I didn't go to her last lesson but hubby and VN both told me that her teacher (remember the perfectionist?) was very pleased with her killer scale, her etude and her concertina. VN beamed from ear to ear!

On the orchestral issue, she thinks she doesn't even have a gut reaction at all. Odd. It seems her greatest pleasure musically derived from playing a duet with her teacher. Chamber music playing (which was the case at Lake District music festival but non-existent at local borough level) appeals most to her as she is not a look-at-me, look-at-me type of person. Someone smilingly asked her - Do you want to be Vanessa Mae when you grow up? To which VN replied almost in a growling tone - No, I want to be me. She was not pleased with the questioner to say the least!

So we all hope that Sarah's excellent idea will come in handy. We will ask for her to try both primary and youth for a term. I wonder whether the head of strings will agree to this weird request?

Thanks, ALL!

Tess

YAY! *manic applause and cheering*

So glad to help in any way.

Chamber music of any description is the most fun thing (I think) that you can do in music, I also love orchestras.

Hope the head of strings lets her do both for a while - it seems to make sense when she's "on the cusp" as regards her playing standard, and is making such progress, but by age would apparently belong in the primary group. I hope she enjoys the experience

A very wise girl .

Good luck with the orchestras .

Ahhhh, and me too!!! That's what I wanted to do when I first started learning the violin. You can hear the importance of your own line, you feel your part pass to the other players, and pick up their threads too. You try and match each others interpretation (and tuning the chords), and the discussions over how passages should be played are priceless....try it one way, then try it another and then you decide yourselves (no conductor forcing their opinion on you!). There is an intimacy about it that you just don't get in orchestras (where sometimes you can't even hear yourself at all especially if there are loads of brass blasting out!!).

Maybe VN can get an informal group of like minded people together for chamber music sessions if this is what turns her key. There is something very special that chamber musicians have, and I think everyone else is missing out

Oh yes! I felt that too although we were only doing an internet quartet!

Just out of interest Tess, do you have a microphone? I'm sure that VN would be more than welcome to join in with any forum chamber music (or even to choose some that she'd like to play). If she doesn't want to do that she might find it enjoyable to have her playing on the site . No need if she doesn't want to though; or if it's not possible.

We don't have a microphone, YAP but she said she's very happy to let dad do something to put her video (she'll be doing a video recording for Procorda North audition at the end of March) onto the forum. I'm stupid and useless when it comes to technology so I shan't ask hubby or you how but come April fool's day, it'll be there!

That'd be good .

Actually, if you have a camcorder, you do have a microphone. Usually, camcorders have two or three connectors on them - a yellow one for video, a white one for sound and sometimes another red one for sound if its stereo. If you video her playing, you can then get a cable to connect the white (and red, if present) to your computer (it goes into the little blue hole at the back - line in) and record the sound into there off the camcorder.

I don't want to be pushy, I'm just letting you know it's possible if you want to do it .

Hi Tess
Been so busy with the new term only just managed to read this thread briefly.

VN
My son struggled with G major too. He likes to try it fast and trips over it and doesnt glide up the positions. If you play it separate bows and slowly it really helps.
He warms up with G major in 1st Position (2 oct)
Then he shifts from 1st finger B to 1st finger D on the A string and then back again up and down, gliding back and forth, he adds in C. B C and shift to D and then backwards.

Then he starts on 1st A on E string and plays A B then Shifts to C D E F# G as he climbs slowly he also turns his elbow in and hand round, tucking his thumb under.

Once warmed up he starts playing G major from the 2nd octave all the way up slowly and back down all the way to open G.

I hope this helps. He breaks it down even now, use to take 10 mins to complete it but now about 2 mins. He wont even try and play it all in one go, always a quick warm up and then plays 3 oct.

As for orchestra he has the same problem with band. He has just gone up to the grade 5 band where min age is probably 12/13 and he is 9, loved the music found it challenging but it finished at 8.30pm which he found tiring. Never the less he is up for the challenge. He was 5 when he joined the 1st orchestra and kind of got use to being the youngest, luckily it is not obvious as he is so tall for his age. He is taller than some of the 12 year olds....

In orchestra he is back with his friends now, they are still 2 school years older but they have finally moved up but he is now near the front of the 1st violins and they are in the lower of the 2nd. They get to go away together so it is fun still.

My 8 year old cellist is going to juggle orchestras like you too, starting this Sat, he will lead the cellos in junior orchestra and move up to intermediates to try out the music as it is more challenging. He hasnt got grade 3 yet but he can play to grade 3/4 and his SR is good, as long as there arent too many shifts. I think the conductor will be pleased to have you in both orchestras. You will love it. Enjoy it!! let me know how you do.

Thanks, I know but it's old and cheap and has gone bust! Will have to buy a new camcorder next spring. Funny, quite a number of friends have told me that it gets cheaper by the year!

I like this fingering:

G string 01234

D string 1234

A string 121234

E string 1231234

It works well and can sound nice and clean.

One thing that can help is to practise the D major scale starting with your first finger on D on the A string and going up to top D on the E string. I know it has a C# instead of the C natural you need for G major, but it does get you playing up there in 3rd position and getting more fluent in that postion. Try D minor scales up there too, and arpeggios, and just noodling around in that position on the A and E strings until you start feeling comfortable.

Then try the 3 octave G major scale again using the fingering I suggested (one less position change!), and things will probably improve.

Good luck.

Violinia

Thanks, Violinia. Will remind VN to read your advice.

Thanks, frumpybabes. It's just that we are determined that she does not get big-headed (being yr 4 when others are yr 7 to 11) in the future. This is important for various reasons.

First, when she enters junior dept some day, it'll be apparent that everyone else is just as talented. Second, as my late parents used to say, it leaves a horrible taste in one's mouth if the boasting comes from anywhere else other than the parents! Third, she must learn and also be reminded all the time that her bahaviour is more important than her musical talent/academic achievement and ALSO that what she is TODAY is FAR more imp than what she'll be tomorrow! There may not be a tomorrow. One of my relatives was a musician who died very young! Finally, she knows we love her even if she quits the music scene tomorrow.

Tess

all very true Tess, I have a similar problem with my 2 older children especially the middle one who is gifted on every level. He is not aware of his gift so has never been boastful, and he is always reminded about his behaviour which tends to drift as in gets bored easily. Needing constant stimulation has always been hard.
Yes I must remind mine that what is important is today and not tomorrow.. too true, my kids are not finding it much harder at grade 5 and being young, they are slowly overcoming the hurdles.

Thanks. I am lucky, my teacher allows me to do my own fingering. I'm off for a nap now, just back from school. *yawn*

VN

Violinia,
Your advice should come in VERY handy today. Print it out and gave her last night.

VN is mad with herself!!! Yesterday evening, try as she did, she couldn't manage that wretched scale again. Went pear-shaped. She can't believe it! She had got it all sorted out before.

*sigh* Quite honestly, don't know whether she has talent or not (although I suppose I will know for sure IF she does get a grade 8 distinction some day) but regardles of talent, it looks to me that the violin is SUCH a hard thing to learn and SO SO FRUSTRATING!!!

I really admire people like Janexxx for taking it up relatively late. Well done, Janexxx.

The teacher asked her 2 weeks ago to let me supervise her. That horrid scale, why else? But unlike some lucky folks here (like frumpybabes) who teach music to their own kids, I know nothing about music although I admit my ears are pretty good. Unfortunately, not having ever been supervised before, despite all gentle and logical persuasion, VN won't let me. She doesn't want to hear/talk about conceding any kind of supervision not here on this forum nor anywhere / at any time.

I told myself I shouldn't feel guilty about not being able to help her like frumpy? But inside, I still do. Never mind. Guess guilt is part and parcel of parenting. Thanks for hearing me out on a moaning trip like this! Apologies for rambling...

Feel a bit better, already!

Tess

Tess I may be lucky to teach my kids but hey it is not without battle. It is never without tears and door slamming. I tell you now, the violinist is actually the worse !!! He is very stubborn and his way is right in everything not just music. I am surprise we have got this far... I remember days when I thought we woudnt get to grade 1 never mind grade 5. We have surprised each other how much they can achieve. I still think I will stop after grade 5 with them so they gain more knowledge and experience from someone else.

Alot of it is sheer frustration of knowing what they have to do but just cant get their little fingers round it. There are not many things that a child of such a young age is critised on and told you must do it this way and correct yourself. To know you are wrong and to have the ability to try and correct yourself, to know right but not get to be right. It must be so frustrating especially if you are only 8.

I know what you mean about trying to help them and not being in the know. I feel like that with the trumpet . I know it isnt the quite thesame but alot of the time I just sit back. I would much rather have a supportive parent listening then one in another room busy doing something else. My kids always play better if I am in the room whether I am help or not. They like to play to an audience.

I try hard not to pick holes in their playing after they finish I will guide them. No.2. son thrives on this. Sometimes they stop and tell me to listen properly as they are so use to me stopping and starting them. But they know at the beginning of a practice whether it is a lesson/play through/ practice/ performance. I tell them before they start and we both try and stick to the deal. It is hard

Please dont feel guilty Tess VN will get there. She has had an amazing start to her violin. It is very fast how she got through all those grades and now it will be much harder for her. That is why it is called the Intermediate level. My kids have slowed down alot too. They couldnt do what she is about to achieve grade 4 and 5 so quickly. It takes my violinist about a year now to prepare, he finds it alot harder and it is not lack of practice or determination or wrong practice it is just plain hard !!! I think after grade 5 it gets a little easier until 7/8. It is all the shifting that makes it hard be grateful she has a good ear for music. There are children out their who havent a clue whether they are in tune or not. I teach some of them !! I wish I had more parents like you that take an interest in their childs music.


Good luck keep her happy, if it is too much just stop for a break and go back later.

Hi Janexxx,
VN took your advice seriously and asked me last week to take her to Taichi! Couldn't believe it! I used to go a long time ago. Was sure - no kids. Besides Taichi is 2 hours long so she'll be very sleepy! So I'm not sure...

But then she reminded me you were coming to tha ABRSM FU concert and could she come so she could see some of your taichi??? I said OK if it does not clash with Sat. orchestra. You'll be surprised. She always sound different in her letters and on paper and in the forum. She even let me read her diary entries at times which sound very different but in person she is very reserved. I can never forget how her last year's teacher laughed when she told me VN is "ice-cold efficiency" (quote) and (quote again) "never show her enthusiasm not even in her fav subject which is Art"!

In this she has changed from last year school report - she does show her enthusiasm now - in D&T and Music!

Tess

Just back from a few days away and catching up. Yes that would be great I could show her a few simple exercises to do just before her practice session and see if it works.

I think that might be all she would need right now, rather than weekly classes.

So, how was your few days away holiday, then? Anywhere exciting?

VN

Yes Paris!!! I have separate thread in the cafe about my adventures there.

Hello everyone,
I am so thankful for all your support and encouragement here! I am also proud of VN and I hope you will all forgive me for boasting here? She managed to stabilise her 3-oc G major scale, at last. The week before, her teacher told her it was very good and then last week her conductor suddenly asked her for it, she said, probably just to tease her? But when she did it for him, he was so pleased he thought it was absolutely superb! Consistent, at last! Before she gets proud, her teacher has just advised her that he's going to vary it and make it much harder!

But I thought I should tell everyone on her thread about this happy ending? She's not telling on the computer as she's still practising her Kuchler RIGHT NOW trying to make it go very fast, downstairs! I'd asked her to play it at the Easter Midlands forum users concert.

Thanks, ALL.

Tess

So much looking forward to meeting VN and hearing her play! Sounds like she's mastered G major 3 octaves better than I ever did *grins* Looking forward very much to the concert... do you think we could convince her to do an impromptu recital of the Danclas Air de Ballet at some point? I've never heard it and to hear she made someone cry with it.... wow! (I am looking forward to meeting you, too Tess! I'll have to teach you both some Russian, how about it?)

Russian, did you say? Cool.

Да!

Dancla's piece? Hmmm, methinks that lady has peeled too many onions that evening (with her fingers) if you ask me! Have heard it so many times and it sounds just like ballet, no more, no less.

Sarah, how on earth did you do that?! I had no idea! I know certain computers can do the Mandarin typeface which is equally amazing but do you have a special Russian keyboard or something? Wow.

Tess, I'm pretty sure you can install Russian and other languages onto any computer, even if you don't have a Russian keyboard.

However, I cheat and use this page - the translating isn't hugely reliable, but you can click on the keyboard icon, which allows me to type in Russian, and then I can cut and paste. For simple things like the "yes" above the translating is ok

Congratulations on the scale, Violin Nutter!

I don't know what it is with scales. On the flute you just twiddle your lips a bit as you go up and down, so I find it hard to figure out why some days Viohazard's scales go fine, and other days you can hear him practically throwing the violin around as he changes position . You must have done a lot of work to get it consistently sounding good!

Quite frankly, all ears, it's the TEACHER's doing. He spotted 2 errors quite quickly which kept recurring - the relaxed swing backwards of the elbow wasn't enough to make the thumb appear on top and rest lightly on the fingerboard and also the stretching of the knuckle and fingers upwards was correct instead of her usual bringing of the arm forward to force the fingers up in her case. I believe it takes a wealth of EXPERIENCE to spot things like that. If Viohazard's teacher keeps nagging like VN's teacher actually said he's prone to do , VH will soon get fed up with himself if he does not change to suit his teacher's standard!!!

Have you found a new teacher for VH yet?

Tess