STEVE HOPWOOD

IM NOT AMATEUR,
I DO NOT LIKE UR ATTITUDE.

May I refer you to the forum rules on text speak? Besides, proper language looks much more professional

well he has made me angry for calling me an amateur, when im not.

Actually, I told you to behave like a professional. Not the same thing at all.

Steve

hi.. would like to share with other teachers regarding about teaching rates here in singapore...

Normally, students will be charge according to their level. Example, For a teacher who travels to students hse at Beginner level will be charge +/- Sing$ 140 for 4 lessons. As when the student proceeds to the next grade which is Grade 1 , there will be an increment of $10 thus $150 for Grade 1 for 4 lessons of 45mins lesson.
Until when the student reaches Grade 5 and above, there will a an increment of approximately $20.

gazdudeuk, I think you need to re-read some of what's been said to you and try to not get angry about it but read it and see the sense in it... just to point out the sense in what Steve has said:


Do you have any idea what other teachers in your area charge? You should find out. If everyone else is charging £8.50 then... well I'd be very surprised but it would make your charges more realistic. But even in my area (small rural town and surrounding villages) my friend who has a couple of years experience charges £20/hour. I teach one child from my church the flute and even I charge £12/hour (and if I was going to do it for a living or for anyone other than the daughter of a friend, I would charge more, once I had experience and some more qualifications)


I get £5/hour for working part time in a local bookshop. Do you not think that preparing for teaching and doing all the travel etc deserves a little more than barely above the minimum wage? Is £3.50 extra really all you deserve extra per hour for the qualifications you have, any training you have, your experience at teaching, the time you spend researching music for your students and planning what you will do with them, the time you spend practising yourself in order to keep your skills up to demonstrate things, and the time and money spent travelling to and fro to teach those who don't come to you?


If you are undercutting other teachers, you are doing nobody any favours.

If you undervalue your teaching by charging too little for it, you give your students cause to undervalue you. You deserve more than £8.50 an hour if your teaching is even slightly reasonably good, so don't devalue what you do.

No one is suggesting you jump from £8.50/hour to £20/hour. But you DO need to start increasing what you charge to a reasonable level. Do a bit of research and find out what other people who teach near you charge. I think all of us will be amazed if £8.50 is the norm, although it's possible. (I used to have lessons for £7/hour on piano, and that was considered very cheap at the time - and that was 14 years ago...)

Unless there are many many other teachers in your area charging similarly miniscule prices for lessons, your students are unlikely to move. You will probably still be among the cheapest in the area until you've done an awful lot of raising of prices. They know you. They're already having lessons with you. Between you and another teacher who charges the same, who do you think they will choose? You have history with your pupils, they're not likely to move on unless they have to.

Cornell: I've heard that before, that teachers esp. in Asia seem to charge more for higher grade lessons. It seems to be much rarer in the UK in my experience.

Slow down and read what Steve said. I believe he said stop acting like an amateur. Not the same thing.

A wise man once told me if you give something away for free (cheaply) that is exactly have much it will be valued. I think Steve is saying you are underselling yourself and probably more important than that under selling the whole profession.

Dont get me wrong competition is good in the market place but being almost 50% under other teachers isn't doing anyone any good. To be totally honest I wouldn't employee a teacher who charged that much less on the basis that, that is probably what he/she is worth!

Gaz

I can understand why Steve is annoyed with you. He is not calling you an amateur. You are a professional and Steve was saying as you act professionally you must charge the professional going rate for your area. I happen to agree,but you must understand we are not ganging up on you,we wish to help.

Sarah has also made some very good points in her last posting.

Why are you only increasing your fees from November and what are you going to charge?

When travelling to pupils houses,I think you should charge a minimum of £3.00 extra.This not just includes petrol costs,but wear and tear on your vehicle,time lost inbetween travelling from each house and so forth. Perhaps these pupils might come to your house instead?

I do agree you need to increase fees gradually.You are stuck really with the hour slot though. How about reducing it to 45 mins for all new pupils?

I would increase fees from £8.50 to £12.50 (charge £11.50 if you go with the 45 mins slot )this year - working from home- and then next year increase it again to £15.Increase fees thereon from September to September by a £1 until you are level with other teachers in your area ( I usually do it April to April because of the start of the tax year ).

Yes, you might lose a couple but the increase should cover that until you replace them.

Write a letter to all pupils quoting the ISM and MU rates stating fees will be increased from October.

Do you have a Contract?In mine I have it written in that I will inform them a month in advance of fee increases. It gives them a month to shop around too. I didn't lose any the last time my fee increased.

You could always say that you have been advised to put up your rates by the MU nd the ISM (I know it's stretching it a wee bit but you could say it in a letter with the appropriate rates quoted, like Semele suggests.)

And from experience I can also tell you of my frustrations as a teacher trying to make a living - when I started out several years ago, I quoted the rates I was being paid at school, and was told - "oh that's way too expensive! Mrs X only charges half of that." (Well Mrs X was an elderly spinster on a pension who had no idea about realistic rates, and who didn't have to make a living out of it.) And the school rates were in any case lower than union rates!

I was faced with this problem a few years ago. As I was acquiring (relevant) qualifications at the time, I put the fees up a larger amount than my normal annual increase each time I obtained a qualification. I will do the same again once I have passed my LRSM. (I've got to find the £340 somehow. )

In my experience, it's fairly standard to do that - my teacher's fees went up quite substantially when she got her teaching LRSM (I think 20% or so).

I've sent out my letter with my new rates for January so that everyone has a chance to think it through (and start saving!). The ones who come to my house currently pay £8 and will have to start paying £10 - and for families with two kids (I teach a lot of siblings) that will be an extra £4 per week. But so far, only that one well-off mother has moaned. I finally have the experience and confidence to stand my ground. Yes, I want them to stay with me - I'm about to have my first baby and can't really afford to lose pupils - but I'm willing to lose one or two over money if it comes down to that. I've worked really hard for this. My fees were low because I started teaching during my music degree and didn't feel that I could put my prices up until I became a qualified teacher (PGCE). After that, I simply got a bit behind. £20 an hour is the going rate in my area, and my four years at university and my experience mean that I'm worth that. Gazdudeuk, you are worth more than £8.50 too. Find out what everyone else is charging.

I also happen to know there's some really poor teaching in my town (Taunton) because I often have parents ringing me up when their children are struggling, and I've inherited so many pupils with bad technique, or who were all forced to play the same pieces by the same teacher. They are so happy when things start to improve for them and that gives me a really good feeling. It makes me feel that I'm succeeding too, and if we are good at our job, we should charge accordingly.

I must admit i have had a number of people come from 2 local music schools which i cant name, and people have also recommended me.

Anyway i have drafted my letter out stating new prices, and i apologise for getting a tad ratty to certain members last night, i know they were only trying to help.

Well done for sorting your terms and conditions out, it sounds like you're on the right track now. I didn't find it easy either, but we have to stand our ground if we want to make a living. My main issue was attendance. I won't be able to provide for my baby properly if I keep letting people cancel without paying, and charging too little.

as far as attendance is concerned, i try alternative times or they pay half, but if its at last minute, they pay full fee.

Yep, I've published my term dates for next year for everyone to see now. If they can't attend on any of those dates, I will try to rearrange, and if that's not possible, they will pay in full. Unless it's a genuine emergency, like a little boy I teach being rushed to hospital this week with a head injury. I think being firm with attendance is just as important as charging the right amount, and hopefully I've now sorted out both. And increased fees will cover any temporary losses due to any pupil who should decide to give up.

i once had a pupil whos grandfather paid for 4 weeks and she came for 1 and he asked for a refund, i told him i dont give refunds!! couldnt believe it!!

Good for you.

Steve

I think a lot of the problem is that some parents dont see us lowly instrumental teachers as ahving a proper profession!! Its as though we are teaching their children out of the kindness of our hearts.....ok let me rephrase that as now it sounds like Im being a scrooge! Hopefully the great majority of teachers out there are teaching because they enjoy it and want to help others learn and develop as musicians - however, it is still a job that has required a LOT of private practise over many years and is a very strenous job - teaching comeone one-to-one for an hour is far more exhausting than say an hour stacking shelves in a supermarket. You are having to use your brain 100% of the time and stay alert, listening and giving advice.
Why should we settle for poverty rates?? Its not JUST a hobby?! Hopefully most people out there enjoy their jobs to SOME degree....but this doesnt mean we can afford to live on nothing!!

I hope this badly worded argument comes across in the way it sounds in my head!!
Just one of my pupils parents have slightly grumbled at my increase of fees (which is still a fair amount lower than it shoudl be) however. It always the well off ones that cause the agro!

Yes, I guess it does appear to the uninformed that we are just earning money doing our nice little hobby, after all, a hobby is what music is to most of them. But EVERY other self-employed professional I've spoken to (accountants, osteopaths, a couple who run an education business, to name but a few) have told me to put my fees up, not tolerate absences and to be really firm. I guess that part of being successful is learning to run a business properly, and I'm still learning.

I think this is the problem - too many people consciously or unconsciously look on those who teach instruments as indulging a hobby or doing something for fun rather than money, whereas actually for the majority it's their profession.

I would like your advice on my situation please as I have read with interest this topic. I teach in Newcastle and charge £11 for 3o mins. I charge this whether I travel to pupils houses, or whether they come to me. Now that I am more experienced I want to charge more when travelling to pupils houses to cover petrol, wear and tear etc but I'm not sure how to go about it as I've been teaching nearly 2 years now and only just realised I should be charging more for travelling!
I travel out 4 times a week but have a few students in the area I go to. Do you think I could say at this late stage that I need to charge an extra 50p say per house, or do you think I've left it far too late to start charging more for travelling?
All views and comments would be appreciated
Thanks
Tracey

I think it might be a good time of year to write a letter stating that home visits have increased and you have been finding in the past term or two that you are out of pocket due to travelling costs ... and so need to add in a realistic amount to cover your expenses.

I do think it's fair enough that you charge, perhaps not just for the cost of petrol and wear and tear on your car, but even for the time you travel (how many other lessons could you be doing in that time if you didn't spend time on the road??!)

Good luck.

In a nutshell...Yes...you should be charging more. 50p is still too little. I would consider upping the travel expenses to £2.00 ( I know I recommended a minimum of £3.00 to someone else,but your rates are spot on for 30 mins ).

Write the parents a letter informing them that because of the cost of petrol...blah,blah....lessons will be £13 from October.If they protest,don't argue and don't give in.Suggest they come to your house if they find you charging offensive.

I would also try to to organise your home visits in one or two days depending on how many you travel too.This way you can teach more pupils at your place.

Quoting guidelines for travelling expenses for teachers:

The allowance of 40p/mile is certainly a bit more than 50p flat-rate. Perhaps aim for a fee which, on average, is about 40p a mile. If you charge less than this, don't forget to claim back the tax

If you have a few of them all within a couple of minutes of each other, I'd charge them an extra pound each. I started doing this a couple of years ago, and only one person objected - yes, the very same person who had a moan about my increasing fees last week. Having said that, I still have some catching up to do myself - from Jan am charging everyone £10 for 30 mins (the average rate here) whether at their house or mine. This only works for me because the 8 kids I travel to are all on the same night, in the same village - 4 houses less than half a mile apart (2 families of 2, 1 set of 3 siblings, and 1 lone teenage girl).

Hee hee, I don't have a car at all so flatly refuse to travel to pupil's homes! That stops any muddling with different fees, or I'd have to charge at least double to accommodate buses/time lost. If someone's car breaks down, there's a bus stop at the top of my road...

Sorry, I think being in command of CNTU soc has gone to my head....become a little giddy on the power (or the painkillers.... )

I am shocked at how little some music teachers posting here are charging for what must be one of the most valuable contributions to society!
Now it's my turn to shock - here are the current rates from 3 different music teachers:
£12 / half hour
£15 / half hour
£45 / hour (doesn't do half hours!)
There is no way these teachers would travel to your house. You get to their house on time or you lose teaching time - they may have pupils before and after.
These charges are the same for whatever age the pupil is.
We might find cheaper rates if we looked around, but we wouldn't DREAM of changing our teachers to save money - in fact we changed to them because they are professional and very good teachers, the rate wasn't a deciding factor. (It wasn't even questioned!) They are not easy to get - they have waiting lists and they turn a lot away. We were lucky to get them!
Can we easily afford these charges? Not easily, but its more valuable that you can put a price on.
Do we mind paying? No we don't! It is a free choice, totally optional.
What would I think of a music teacher charging £8/hour? I would be confused - how would they survive? Why would they charge less than every other rate I can think of (besides a paper round)?

Why shouldn't a music teacher earn a decent rate for a decent service!

I agree that £8/ hour is low. I've been charging double that, and it's still low (hence the increase). But it does depend partly on where you live. Nearly everyone around here charges £20/ hour. I do know of one lady who charges substantially more, but she teaches the cello and they're in very short supply.

To be honest, and I really don't want to sound snobbish or put anyone down here, but if someone was charging that I'd be wondering why and probably would avoid them on the basis that there must be something wrong with their teaching if that's all they can ask for. Again I'm not saying that they're necessarily bad, and please don't think I'm getting at anyone here, I'm merely saying that if you put up the price that might result in more, not less, trade!

I would wonder about their qualifications and experience, not to mention results. It's taken me a while to see that people might wonder the same things about me, given my £16/ hour rate and the fact that I'm still in my 20s. Having said that, I have a lot of beginners (and more advanced ones too of course) who have never shopped around and probably have no idea what anyone else charges. I'm sure some of their parents think £10 for half an hour is a lot of money, but if I were paying that for my own child, I'd see it as an investment in their education and their future. So £20/ hour it is, starting after my maternity leave. I'm going to put it up by £1 a year or £2 every two years to catch up and keep up! And not one person has threatened to leave me.

Hooray, hooray.

My one remaining home visit (apart from one who lives a few houses away) has just told me she's giving up. I got talked into doing a home visit a few years ago when I was still trying to build up my student base. Originally it was for two sisters, but one gave up and I was stuck travelling 7 miles to teach the remaining sister. What's more, they were the worst at paying me on time of all my students. I nearly punched the air when I came off the phone tonight.

Been there, done that. You end up feeling a real Patsy, don't you?

Steve

I have just sent out my increased prices, with the belief that a couple of people would leave (which would have been welcome) and instead have all sorts of enquiries from people's friends, lots of compliments and people telling me I am well worth the extra. My waiting list is longer than ever.

Now I am charging right at the top of the scale for where I live, charge for absences, demand money for 10 lessons in advance and ask for a retainer over the Christmas holidays to keep their place. (I do exam accompaniment and organise concerts for free though - added value).

I don't explain about rising petrol costs, or the fact my council rates have just doubled - it's not their problem. I just said - here's the price.

This is a very interesting discussion! I only started teaching the piano a couple of months ago, and charge £8.50 for a half hour lesson, and £16 for an hour lesson (though hour lessons are only those studying grade 6+)

I do feel I could probably charge a little more, as music teachers are in very high demand here at the minute.

I decided not to increase rates until I get my abrsm diploma (hopefully soon!)

When I was waitressing I could have earned £8 an hour with tips included. Although it was tiring work, teaching piano is far more mentally demanding, and if you spend time preparing lessons (which I do) you should also take that into account.

All of my students' parents agree that £8.50 an hour is very reasonable and money well spent.

Don't sell yourself short!

Amanda xxx

FYI, as an adult cello student in West London with a teacher who visits, I pay £30 per hour. The progress I make is worth it, for me at least.

On the subject of visits I had an enquiry this week from a parent wanting piano lessons for the daughter.
Firstly they wanted to specify a time.... I said 'You can try'....
Then it seems they only have a mini keyboard and don't want to get anything bigger unless she gets on ok and likes it .
Does this ever happen with other instruments? THey would like the child to learn, but without the use of an instrument until they see if they get on ok...
Next they ask about home visits (because someone they know has a tutor who goes to their house).... BUT THEY JUST SAID THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SUITABLE INSTRUMENT!

Wonder if I will hear from them again after my holidays?

Hi Sbhoa

It's very frustrating when you get people phoning up like this.The first question I always ask is " Have you got a piano? " If they don't I then go on to explain it's the same as riding a bike.

Then they dictate a time as though you don't have anyone else on your books. A couple of weeks ago this woman said she wants to change the lesson to 6pm from next week as she has got a job. Just like that! Expected it the next week.

I have managed to change the lesson round,but only beginning October after a lot of messing about.And it's not 6pm as my schedule doesn't work that way.

My sympathies,Sbhoa. I just wish people would do a little research first before making enquires or rather asking dumb questions.

Me too.

Don't you just hate it when you hear a sharp indrawing of breath, followed by a couple of seconds silence then a somewhat terse, "Well, of course we have a piano. Couldn't learn without it, could we?"

Then the rest of the conversation is a desperate attempt to retrieve the impression the enquirer has that I am a complete idiot. She speaks...very....slowly....and....clearly.

Hey-ho.

Steve

Mmmm, this is an interesting discussion worth pursuing. Doesn't anyone teach keyboard here as a seperate instrument to the piano or do you just ignore the keyboard altogether?
The reason I ask is that I have had several keyboard pupils over the years who have taken the LCM and Trinity keyboard exams and they still play pop/rock music on their keyboards and enjoy playing. They've never been interested in upgrading to a piano either. We do live in the 21st Century after all where the Electronic Keyboard exists and is a musical instrument in its own right. Thats my opinion anyway.


Gae

I would teach it if asked. I even have some very useful sources of teaching material should this ever happen. I have a couple of teenage students preparing for RockSchool exams for the first time, so I suppose this is just a natural extension of that.

Steve

Don't know whether I'd be too sure about teaching keyboard, unless it was just someone wanting to learn the basics and play a few tunes.
I've briefly looked at keyboard syllabus and it seems that you need to have some technical knowledge at least.
I do have a keyboard but I'm afraid I've never really got past the seeing it as a toy stage.... never been interested enough to put in the time exploring it as a proper instrument I'm afraid.
My previous piano teacher was good with the keyboard though and I did have some keyboard lessons with him for a short time but I don't think I ever really was committed to it.

Doesn't always go like this in my case ...

sometimes the question is followed by a rather nasty silence, and then the question " erm ...why does she need one?"

Yes, there silences and silences. Not all are golden.

Steve

Hi Guys,

I live and work in Lincolnshire, notable for it's desolate landscape, really bad road system and low wages. Despite this I still charge £22 per hour + travelling allowances of £2-3. Not one pupil, parent or associated person has ever complained. Most consider it a fair rate for the expertise I provide.

I also know a local teacher who is trying to undercut the more expensive of us by charging £6-9 per hour and NO travel costs. This person is struggling to keep clients as they seem to feel that they can't be that good if they only dare charge such a nominal fee.

If you're good enough to teach, you're good enough to be paid an hourly rate commensurate with your expertise and experience.

Rant over!

Why do people want their children to learn piano if they don't have one?? They seem to think a small 3 octave keyboard is just the same. Its difficult for them to get the message that although a keyboard and piano look the same thats all they have in common. They eventually get the message when I explain that they wouldn't send their child for cello lessons and give tham a violin to practice on....

Hi Everyone

Just logged in now. There was a bit of trouble posting earlier on,so I'm very surprised my posting made it.

Did anyone else notice the same?

Apologies for going off topic.

I like that quote! Must try it myself sometime! *Memo to self to remember cello and violin!*

Yesterday afternoon there were some problems with the underlying database, it was refusing connections (too many connections although maybe this was a bug rather than actually too many connections...). Anyway it's working again now so hopefully there won't be any further problems.