Not quite sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes.

In figured bass a 7 indicates a chord of 357 over a bass note, If the 7 has just a single accidental underneath it, to which part of the chord does the accidental apply, the 3 or the 5?


Thanks in advance

Andy

Hmm Is it the 3rd? Because I'm sure I read somewhere that when there is an accidental it means sharpen the 3rd? Usually to make it major /minor etc

I don't actually know though..........................................................and I should

I've looked through the ABRSM theory books, and an answer doesn't jump out at me. one thing that is stated is that on a 357 chord the 3 can be left out without any detrimental effect to the sound.


confused.....yes

Andy

I've no idea now...and I thought I'd cracked figured bass

Someone else will stop confusing you and give you the correct answer!

Yes, we should really have a theory forum!

An accidental without a number attached would be the third (I think). It could be sharp, flat, or natural sign depending what notes the key signature give and what effect it has to the chord. Are you sure it's 3rd that can be left out? Usually the 5th can be left and play the tonic, 3rd, 7th.

Is this a specific question in the book?

You have me thinking.... I need to check whether it is the 3rd or 5th that can be left out.

I was just going through some old Grade 6 theory exercises from the abrsm book when I stumbled across this.

I was quite surprised there isn't a theory forum... ( not one I could find anyway)


Andy

No there isn't a theory forum. Shall we ask for one?

If you leave the third you have no definition of major or minor. The fifth has no such importance.

It makes sense...

I have just sent a request to the moderator for a theory forum, please request as well,


Viva Theory has a nice ring to it


Andy

The third.

The whole system of figured bass is designed for economy. As the third is the most likely note to be altered in a chord (changing it from major to minor, or vice versa) an accidental on its own written under the bass applies to the third. So in this case the natural applies to the third as it is on its own; the 7 above it just means 'add a 7th above the bass as well'.

As for what can be omitted - from what I can gather, the 5th can be omitted fairly freely, but the third almost always has to be left in, so the chord sounds distinctly major or minor.

its most definitely the 3rd.. the same applies if there is no number and only a sharp sign.. the its is a 53 with a sharped 3..

The easiest way to gain experience with figured bass, if anyone feels they need a little more practice, is to grab the score of a Baroque work and realise the figured bass oneself. sheetmusicarchive.net have a few orchestral suite movements, and it's a lot more satisfying to realise a proper figured bass rather than just play with a few toy examples in a theory book.

I was right yipeee!

Well, of course saxlover and YAP are correct. How could a combination of Nat and a National Institution ever be wrong?

Nat and YAP: your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find a cure for global warming.

No hurry - anytime tomorrow will do

Steve

If anyone feels like explaining what figured bass actually is to a stupid G5 Theory guy it would be appreciated. Just so I can understand vaguely what's going on.

It is\was a Baroque (c. 1600-1750, think Bach, Handel, Vivaldi) thing. Sparse population meant that orchestras could have members missing for all sorts of reasons - wars, floods, plague, holidays, no respondents to the advert - you name it.

All baroque orchestras included a harpischord or organ 'continuo' (unless said player was the victim of war, flood etc, in which case they were stuffed). The job of the continuo player was to fill out harmonies that might possibly be missing, so composers neither wanted nor needed to write out full parts.

The continuo line therefore consisted of the bass line plus figures that indicated the chords needed - hence the tem 'figured bass'. Spacing is not easy here so eg 5\3 means 5 over 3. 5\3 meant the chord consisting of the notes a fifth and a third above the bass - a root position chord. 6\3 meant a sixth and third above the bass - a first inversion chord etc. There was a whole convention governing a shorthand that allowed for figures to be omitted, accidentals to be placed apparently in mid-air etc. The continuo player understood all of this.

Continuo players were adept at 'realising' the figured bass - providing the harmonic filling in whatever way was most appropriate to the instrumental forces available and the music being played.

Modern performances of Baroque music nearly always includes the continuo. Modern continuo players master the same skills practised by their Baroque counterpoints.

Hope this helps.

Steve

I've just spent the past 45 minutes or so realising the figured bass for the Badinerie in Bach's 2nd orchestral suite. I came across a whole host of notation not mentioned in the theory books I've read.

A backslash through a note - e.g. 6 \ with the \ on top of the 6 - means sharpen the note by one semitone. Or so does a little plus glued to a sticky out bit on the number - e.g. 5 with a plus glued to the top right, or 4 with a + glued to the bit which sticks out on the right.

On harpsichord grades, one is required to realise a figured bass on sight - thankfully, they restrict it to a certain subset of figures otherwise it would be nigh on impossible to do. Unless one was Robert King, Trevor Pinnock or Richard Egarr maybe....

Thoughts on global warming YAP?

Isn't the cure something to do with pumping carbon dioxide into the ground, which will also hopefully bring up more oil; with which, of course, one can create even more carbon dioxide .

I've no idea! I was awaiting your lesson

I'm sure any professional ensemble harpsichordist would reckon to be able to realise figured bass at sight, and most of them would be right. It's a similar skill to a jazz pianist working from tune and chord symbols. Solo harpsichordists actually have less need.

And Robert King, Trevor Pinnock and Richard Egarr are examplars of... ?

I merely chose three professional harpsichordists of which I thought most people would have heard of at least one. As you say, I'm sure they can do it; even so, listening to elaborate realisations Pinnock often uses, I'm sure they would often refine them in advance given half a chance - adding glossas and so on.

This is to confuse everybody!

If there is an accidental sign to the left side of the number, for example, #5, this would mean that the 5th was sharpened.

is this correct a sharpened 3rd and 5th on a 35 chord would be
#5
#

or the same on a 7th would be
7
#
#

andy

It's rather confusing really - if the 5th was flattened in the key, then it would be played as a natural, not as a sharp. It's a historical thing - even up until shortly into Bach's life, it was quite common to cancel flats with a sharp sign. It gives editors of Bach's early works headaches working out exactly what he meant in a couple of places as he was taught the old system initially and now and again had a mental abberation and switched back to using it.

But I digress.

Harpsichord - given your experience with harpsichord grades - are there any published books of exercises for practising the figured bass realisation sections of the exams?

Yes, I believe so.


I don't think so: from what I can gather, an unspecified # always applies to 3, so it would need to be written

7
#5
#

Harpsichord - given your experience with harpsichord grades - are there any published books of exercises for practising the figured bass realisation sections of the exams?

[/quote]

Yes. 'Figured Harmony at the keyboard' by R.O.Morris, published by the Oxford University Press in two parts.

Of course, you could always create your own figured bass exercices.

Talk about living and learning. 54 years old, more than 30 as a piano teacher and 10 years teaching 'A' level and I didn't know this.

Fascinating what they got up to in those days. Here is my contribution:

Flat minor keys; the key sig would be one flat less (eg C minor -= key sig Bb and Eb) and the final flat would be added as an accidental.

Strange people, these Baroquees

Steve

I've just noticed tghat on the left next to my postings i have warn0% has anyone any ida what this means?

Andy

That you've been a good boy .

0% warnings is a good thing, it goes up by 20% for each warning one receives, and once it reaches 100% one is placed on the moderation queue.

that had me worried, ....

cheers