Vaguely off topic, but would you like to submit a recording of yourself playing the violin for the forum users' recordings website? That way, people would have a better idea of where you are musically at the moment when giving you their opinion.

Many people that I speak to seem to be under the delusion that the higher standard you are at your instrument, the happier you will be. I disagree with this line of reasoning on the following grounds:

1) The amount of satisfaction you get from your instrument is based on your achievements at your given level. Eg. When I first learnt to play Au Clair De La Lune from My First Keyboard Book, I was absolutely thrilled and thought it sounded gorgeous (despite the only LH accompaniment being the occasional G with finger 4 ).

I wouldn't say I get any greater happiness now from being able to play my very own interpretation of Nocturne in E Flat through than I did from initially being able to play the correct notes of Au Clair De La Lune, despite the vast difference in difficulty and depth.

2) Progression on an instrument seems to me to be directly proportional to being 'not happy' with ones current standard. As has already been mentioned, we get a thrill from achieving one goal only to be humbled before the next task. I recall the desperation that I felt to be able to play a very simplified version of Brahms' Lullaby.

Over time, goals rightly change, I now would very much like to be able to play (and do justice to) Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu. When (or rather if) I can play that tune well in the future, I will no doubt feel the need for another challenge. These achievements are marked as small 'trophies' in ones repertoire.

I hope I have made sense here, I think what I am trying to say is this: No greater satisfaction will necessarily be achieved by sacrificing many things in order to be wonderful on a chosen instrument. If you have irreversibly decided that to be a professional violinist is your chosen course then I certainly wish you well. But as AmandaL said, the grass isn't always greener once you are actually there.

Boo

No, but in saying that you've got to grade 7 merit standard in however many years you have done is saying you're better than most other people: the AB's quoted 'normal' rate of progress being a grade per year. To truly be grade 7 merit standard in that time would be one achievement; to get a merit in a grade 7 exam is not the same achievement. By learning only three pieces all year over-training them to get through a grade 7 exam, with no other experience to back that up, one is kidding oneself that one is better than one really is. The ability to play three grade 7 pieces with a lot of assistance is vastly different from being able to confidently tackle grade 7 repertoire. Two people each with the opposite approach could easily get the same mark in a grade 7 exam, but there's little question who is the better player. This is why music exams can mislead people into thinking they're a certain standard when they're not.


Any ordinary person doing this though needs to think about what will happen if they don't achieve that dream. By all means practise away thinking you can achieve it but you must realise that the reality is you probably will not (nothing personal it's just that there are a lot more people in this world with the dream and determination to work for it than there are people who will succeed). If you won't enjoy the process for the purpose of the music making even if you do not make the goal, I honestly advise you not to try, the dissapointment will be too difficult to handle.

Boo Radley: you make some very good points, I agree with your post entirely.

This does not follow my experience- the better I get the more pleasure music gives me.

A beginner will spend maybe 30 minutes playing their instrument, generally alone. A more experienced musician may enjoy playing for hours alone, and many more ensemble and other opportunities (such as playing solo in glorious accoustics) will be available. -Happiness on a longer time scale, and more varied- I love playing pieces with full choir and orchestra, and really appreciate the standard of the other musicians.



I don't see that this can be applied beyond the first instrument studied, as it presupposes the musical and technical development are in step, rather than a musician, with an already advanced musical sense trying to learn the technique of another instrument.

When I play instruments on which I am less competent I need to concentrate much of my mind on getting each note to sound as I desire on a comparatively coarse level (pitch, tone, dynamic, timing); with secure technique I can give more attention to detailed musicallity, voicing, fine control of tone colour and phrasing. I play because I enjoy good music and as an amateur have the luxury of stopping whenever what I am doing risks turning into work and becoming boring. I could easily make far more money than I do, but that is not the criteria I use to choose what playing I do.

Geigespieler- why do you wish to become a professional musician, rather than having your aim as a high standard of playing, regardless of who pays you or doesn't?

I did not say that i'm better than most other people, you are the one who made this inference yourself, based on my achievments or "achievments" if you prefer it that way. I'm just merely sharing what i want to achieve, that's all.

If you read my post carefully, i play only the 3 exam pieces because, the bulk of my violin practises is focussed on scales and technical exercises like sevcik, mazas and kruetzer etudes, which i do not consider them to be music per se.

It is ok, if i don't make it to a professional level of playing, i'm a goal-oriented person, who likes to make "quantum" goals to motivate myself to go beyond a so called limit. I do enjoy the porcess of working hard at the violin to reach a high level of playing.

And I make no apologies for progressing what you might consider ridiculously fast, because i worked really hard for it. Even when i was a beginner, i already had a vision to accomplish certain grades within a certain time frame, and i did a lot of planning to find out the number of hours of practise i need to have per day, and what i should be practicing in order to gain a firm foundation. I made a lot of sacrifice in terms of time and opportunity cost just to bring myself to where i am today. I was practising for an average of 3.5 hours a day when i first started, and i nearly flunked my uni exams because i was too engrossed in my violin practises. I claim to be no genius, it is just pure hard work. But i am enjoying it.

I

In fact my real intention, is to reach a level of playing good enough for a professional orchestra. And when, i am really good enough one day, i would want to join it for the experience of listening great symphonies and concertoes from the hearing point of a professional orchestra, and from the hearing point as part of the orchestra making the music.

I beg to differ from your opinions here. The only impossibilities are one's mindset and physical impossibilities.

For example, if i say that i'm going to fly from US to UK, without sitting on an aeroplane, then this is an obvious physical impossiblities, because before i can even step out of the window, i'll be pulled down to the ground by forces of gravity.

But think again, if hundred years ago, i say that, one day people will be able to fly from US to UK within hours in a big aluminium body called aeroplanes, i believe all those around me will say that i'm deluding myself and others. But look, what happened, aeroplanes has become a reality, because there were people who dared to dream the impossible.

However, in the case of music, musical accomplishments can never be quantified by weight nor length, nor is musical accomplishment limited by physical laws. Even the deaf can learn to play the violin; Beethoven who became deaf could still compose great music. The possibilities to stretch one's ability particularly in learning music is boundless. By saying that you know your limits, you are just putting a false ceiling over your potential. You will never know your limits until you put them to the test many many times. Perhaps, for most people, it is not a question of whether they CAN stretch their limits, it is whether they WANT TO. If you are one of those who are satisfied with your current self-imposed limit, that's fine, but there's no need to impose it on others. (Sorry, this statement is not specifically directed to you, AP or Sarah, just to anyone who reads this thread).

With your love and perserverance, there is no doubt that you will be able to train him to be independent and make his own living in his adulthood. Don't let the fact that he is autistic put any limitations on him to excel in life. Who knows, he may even turn out to be an extra-ordinary musician.

Don't necessarily agree with that. I think that if I took up another instrument, the satisfaction at achieving smaller goals would be just as great, even if they were nowhere near my piano standard.

Once you get to a certain standard, you will look back at pieces you learnt in the past and wonder why you ever enjoyed them but I am referring to the time when you acheive those 'easy' pieces, the satisfaction is great.

I too get great enjoyment from my music now and play for much longer than I used to but if the early years had not had their own enjoyment I would never have got this far.

Whoops....

Okay I do tend to make this terrible assumption, I have no idea where it comes from , that people entering for a grade 7 exam think that they are grade 7 standard, there seems to be little point entering otherwise. Unless of course the reason is that one wants to fool others of one's standard. (or requires the UCAS points, but not the skills, to get into university: in your case the qualification without the skills would be worthless since music colleges audition). If you think that you have reached grade 7 standard in a shorter time than everyone else then you think that you are better than them. This is fine if you are; but if you're not (which only you know through your all round exam performance and how much specialised solid preperation for the exam you did and how good you are at tackling other repertoire at that level) then it's a diffierent matter. Personally I wouldn't skip a grade unless I knew I would get a high distinction in the next without overpreparation, to be honest I probably wouldn't even if I knew that, but that's just me: I like to develop gradually so that I can express what I know I want to in my head, without technical issues being too much in the way, nor do I like to be arrogant and say 'that's to easy for me'.


What you need, as well as technical skills, is the ability to play musically. This is the most important thing for any musician. I thought maybe you could play studies musically as a partial excuse; but playing something that you 'do not consider to be music' isn't going to make your playing musical.


Good then, I think you need some shorter term goals to aim for then and not to get too overly fixed on your final one.


Well keep practising hard, but you must practise the right things: don't confuse going quickly through grades with playing well. In my experience many of the quickes movers are the worst players. If your technical skills are advancing ahead of your musicality then you're in a dangerous position.

ARGH!

I know my limits. You know NOTHING about the physical limitations I have so don't try and act like you know it all, OK? Because you don't. Don't be so quick to assume. The reasons I'm never going to be a famous pianist have a lot more foundation than "just in my mind".

Well said, AP.

Have you joined an amateur orchestra? I don't think you say either way, but I get the impression you play predominantly in isolation. Orchestral playing is a skill which needs to be learnt as much as technical proficiency, and a good conductor of an amateur orchestra will help greatly with understanding music from the inside. Some amateur orchestras also have the advantage of lots of rehearsals which makes a nice change from practically sightreading the part in concert. You seem to cover technical proficiency well already; I found orchestral experience good for aural, sightreading and musicality- and enjoyable.



You and I are different people, but the satisfaction I feel with small goals on other instruments is not the same as that I felt for the first instrument as I am very aware that it sounds less than gorgeous!

I agree that it isn't the same, but although for instance when I play something on the piano I may not think "wow that's so good" because I can compare it with other instruments that I am better at, the fact is that playing a grade 3 piece on the piano is enormously satisfying for me even though it's "only grade 3", because I know how much work it has taken and how much more difficult I find that than playing most of my grade 6 pieces on the flute! So although the sound may not be as musical as I'd like, I still have an enormous sense of "yeah, that was good" when I play a grade 3 piece well and musically, and although it's different I wouldn't say it was lesser than the satisfaction from playing something on the flute.

Yes, it's a great idea to play in orchestras, apart from being a lot of fun it also helps a lot, and if you wish to join an orchestra at some point then the experience would be invaluable.

Just supposing!!!!!!!!

To be honest this sort of comment does not square well with.....




*Most* people would not have the gall to post a message saying

"I'm bench marking my progress against Ashkenazy, Maradona, Einstein etc."

Anyway why stop at Jascha Heifetz - why not bench mark yyour progress against Mozart!!

Are you sure you're not GCBS??

You're fortunate: somehow my ear is quite a way further along than my first instrument, thus I'm never satisfied with anything . I still get pleasure out of achieving things though, even if I know they're not perfect, so long as they're as near as I can expect. Still at least it prevents be from being immodest and thinking I'm a lot better than I am. I think the biggest insult anyone could give to my playing is 'gosh you've passed grade X and you can't do that; I would have thought someone with that grade would be able to do this' (note to anyone who wants to insult me there's your line ) as long as I'm as good as I think I am or better, and am improving I'm happy .

That means that you will always keep striving to improve and not be complacent though, which is a very good thing, even though it also means you're never quite satisfied (I have the same problem, though not on the piano - on the piano I'm happy if anything at all goes right! ).

I expect having a DipABRSM pianist in the house would probably be part of the cause of the good ear (if you're constantly hearing the instrument played well...) and also I guess it's probably hard to fool yourself you're brilliant when however good you are you know what really good playing sounds like - if that makes sense.

Well, If you could just read my posts carefully. I'm applying a NLP (neuro-linguistic theory), where i want to model after people who have been there and done it. And i want to model after the best of the best. Modelling after someone good, does not imply that "I'm saying that i'm better than other people."
And i don't bench mark myself against Mozart because he is more of a compositional genius, which is not the area that i want to develop.

I don't understand why people keep having the misconception that i think that i'm playing well because i'm progressing quickly through grades.

I could have been a total beginner and just after the first day of my violin lesson, decide to draw up a plan and bench mark myself against a legendary violinist, to model after him. But i've never felt a need to rush through grades for the sake of rushing through them. I just happened to spend more hours per day, and practise the right things (with advice from my teacher), compared to people who takes exam at one grade per year. I just happened to progress to a stage where my teacher found that i can take grade 7, so i just when for it. In fact my original plan was to take grade 8 last year, but because my teacher said that i've yet to reach a sound standing in grade 8 last year, that was why i took grade 7.

I do agree that i could be lacking musicality at this moment. But improvement in musicality cannot be rushed by sheer practice alone. Just as what YAP had said, you may be teachnically good in playing a piece of music, but you still can't do justice to it, which i assume he means be musically there to play it. It's the same for me, but at least a sound technicality can be gained at a shorter time if one puts in the adequate amount of work plus the right methodology.

Yes, i intend to join an orchestra soon to improve my other aspect of violin playing.

That doesn't necessarily follow - people who take one exam a year may also be practising the right things, and may be spending more hours per day - they may also be broadening their repertoire, learning a wider range of music, building up all-round musical skills, etc etc.

Just go for it. Certainly without affirmation and determination you won't get as far. It strikes me that it wasn't a good idea bringing it into these forums as you'll receive lots of cautionary advice (with some justification) based on the individual's own experiences, not yours. However, I believe they wish only to impart a sense of perspective. There will be disappointments and you have to be ready to cope with them.

There is no wrong in having ambitions and plans as long as you can adapt them to suit actuality. People like Richard Branson (with his one GCE pass) didn't get where they are by accepting others' claims that he'd never make it.

However, orchestral life isn't paradise. The internal competition can be misery for some. Orchestras get created and disbanded and it's often a case of running fast just to keep on the same spot. If you get very good you could get on the books of people who organise session playing.

Just keep going, aim for a very high standard.

PF

[/quote]

I don't understand why people keep having the misconception that i think that i'm playing well because i'm progressing quickly through grades.

[/quote]

Because you started this whole thread off by making an arogant sounding comment about comparing youself to a great performer. This is contary to the ethos of this web site.

Progresing quickly through the grades and practising lots is a fantasic personal achievment, but taking this as evidence that you are destined to achieve a professional standard of playing is nonsensical.

I do not see it as NLP, I see it as fantasising. The central point about NLP is that goals must be rational, objective, measurable and achievable, and that you therefore give youself feedback on your progress, an dmodify goals accordingly. You have already said that you have poor aural skills and sight reading - well your NLP-based approach should tell you something. If you ignore that you will almost certainly slow your progress in the long run.

There have been threads along similar lines before, and when the person in question posted a recording of his playing it was actually at pretty poor standard. In fact I'm not convinced that you are not the same person!!!

[quote=StuMac,Sep 10 2005, 09:09 AM]
[/quote]


I don't understand why people keep having the misconception that i think that i'm playing well because i'm progressing quickly through grades.

[/quote]

Because you started this whole thread off by making an arogant sounding comment about comparing youself to a great performer. This is contary to the ethos of this web site.

Progresing quickly through the grades and practising lots is a fantasic personal achievment, but taking this as evidence that you are destined to achieve a professional standard of playing is nonsensical.

I do not see it as NLP, I see it as fantasising. The central point about NLP is that goals must be rational, objective, measurable and achievable, and that you therefore give youself feedback on your progress, an dmodify goals accordingly. You have already said that you have poor aural skills and sight reading - well your NLP-based approach should tell you something. If you ignore that you will almost certainly slow your progress in the long run.

There have been threads along similar lines before, and when the person in question posted a recording of his playing it was actually at pretty poor standard. In fact I'm not convinced that you are not the same person!!!

[/quote]


Well, if you think that i'm arrogant, so be it. I respect your opinion, although i do not necessarily agree with it.

And yes, i'm working very hard at improving my sight reading and aural.

And i have never said that i'm destined to achieve a professional standard just because i got a grade 7 merit. I'm just saying that i aspire to achieve a professional standard regardless of my current standing.

YES MADAM!

I'M SORRY MADAM!

Seriously, you know nothing about Sarah's situation and if you don't want to incur the wrath of a good many forum members I suggest you desist in this line of questioning and drop your egotistic attitude in this respect .

YES SIR!
I'M SORRY SIR!

hey, come orf it! this doesn't have to be a bickering, threatening thread.

if geigespieler is arrogant, so s/he'll need to be to meet his/her ambitions. s/he'll be up against it at his age. if s/he doesn't meet them his/her arrogance will come down a few notches as s/he tumbles. we mustn't slag someone off because of their ambitions or because s/he doesn't agree all the time- and remem. this is just typing. a face to face discussion might be more amiable. make allowances for each other for chr*ssakes this is a horrible medium to comm through.

i was told elsewhere on this site that people are nice to each other but they aren't really are they? not all the time anyway.

lets av a smile eh?

Welcome to the wonderful world of 'Ignore User'.

Have a good weekend, I shan't be there to watch.

shame when it comes to that, if i might be allowed to say. arent you worried people will say things about you that you can't see?

Thanks YAP.

Don't make pronouncements about things you know NOTHING about.

SP, I for one am not trying to slag anyone off. I dislike people making assumptions that they have no right to make about things they know nothing about. Being told I have a bad mental attitude when actually it's sheer grit that has got me this far is a little rich from someone who has obviously no idea what they are talking about in regards to me. GS could do with finding out a bit more about people before informing them they have a bad mental mindset.

I have said to GS, I do hope he(she?) does well and gets where they want to be, but I and others on this thread are also trying to inject a bit of realism and suggest ways in which he/she can better aim toward that goal. Considering the source of much of this advice (a pro violinist among them for pete's sake) GS has been given some good things to chew on. GS can take or leave that advice.

That does not give him or her the right to make pronouncements which they know nothing about, or make sarky comments when they have made someone upset.

I only concern myself with the opinions of those whose opinions I care about.

Besides, I'm having a good weekend so far and intend to keep it that way. K156 now on the recordings site

I think GS = GCBS with just the initials CB missing. The only difference is that GS says he/she is 27.5 years old. Mmmmmm. Striking similarities otherwise, don't you think?

yes, that's a bit out of order and an edit from mr/ms geigespieler would not be amiss nor an apology for that remark.

geigespieler, pardon me saying so - you'll have to do better than this with people if you want to ingratiate yourself into the right circles for a musical career.
people have bothered to reply to you both positively and shades-of-negatively at least be grateful that they gave you their time and plenty to think about, when they could be practicising or out enjoying themselves. thanks

no response
....but it is saturday afnoon i spose.



maybe but [shrugging] i don't think so, i may be wrong. just that the world's made up of all kinds good bad and every shade between always in the eye of the beholder so to speak and when you depend on writing only for communication there's bound to be friction from time to time.

some people dont articulate well, others misquote or make assumptions or take specific words out of context. some rarely use capital letters because the shift keys have gone and it's a sweaat getting sjift to work. some have foibles and pet hates which they'll inflict on the unwary at the least provocation.
some are just in an unusual mood like i get when there's thunder looming and lots of other things to make people snappy or happy or cr*ppy.

me, i seem to be waffling sorry ......d'you like maple syrup with waffle....
i better go...

Looks like my attempt to try to inject some humour while apologising failed miserably. But i really meant what i said, meaning that i agree with this post and i am sorry for that.

ok, there's no need to take things too personally. I don't recall insulting anyone directly. But i must admit that my persistence to back up my viewpoints has irked many. If i had unwittingly insulted anyone directly or indirectly, i offer my unreserved apologies.

My principle when posting in forums, is to as much as possible address an issue or to "attack" an issue that i don't agree with , rather than to insult or "attack" the person posting that issue. If i had done the latter, i was innocently unaware. *Apologies*

And i appreciate each and every one of your comments and criticisms. I've never taken them to heart personally, so i hope you would not too, if i have unwittingly criticised you. I respect all your opinions, though i may agree with some and disagree with others.

All right, let's just take it that we have differences in our opinions and move on.

Thank you Everybody

thank you for that.

I don't know if you realise, but CAPITAL LETTERS used are generally considered shouting in 'net etiquette, and also remember that people can't read your intentions so easily from text as if you were talking to someone. This is where smilies become very useful (see? instantly looks more friendly) and also lots of capital letters should be used with caution, or you come across as yelling.


Thank you.

Tess:

My youngest brother - now age 11 - has Spinal Muscular Atrophy, is dyspraxic and epileptic. He's also missing some of the white matter in his brain and as a result has a lot of trouble speaking, his tongue won't do what he wants it to do.

When he was still only a few years old, the doctors told us would never walk - not even crawl - or talk, and that he probably wouldn't make it to 10 (if he was lucky).

What can I say? He walks, he talks (I'm convinced that since he startedtalking he's been doing his best to make up for the time he couldn't talk!), and he turns 12 this December.

So I guess basically what I'm saying is that doctors and social workers can be wrong about some pretty serious things and don't give up hope for your son who sounds absolutely gorgeous!

Thanks for telling me your marvelous story, Z. That is so inspirational! No, I won't give up hope. No mother worth the name would. I must press on and PUSH!
P - Push / Pray
U - Until
S - Something
H - Happen

I heard him singing scales quite a lot today. He's a very happy boy if he does not meet anything unfamiliar... Just hoping and praying he'll play a tune on the piano some day! Thanks, Nicky. You were great, too.

Tess
PS. Sincere apologies for hijacking your thread, G. This will be my last message on my challenge. Will use e-mail/PM instead, next time.